So would you mind having a Competitive Metal Fight Beyblade Combos Testing Thread put up in the Customizations forum? Or do you think it is meaningless?
Perhaps just for candidate customizations, because already there are topics for each combination that seems to perform well, but I do think that a general thread where we could link to those topics for reference and have a list of customizations to consider would be good.
(Aug. 13, 2011 12:31 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, haha, then I fear it shall be under fire by the likes of this:
Quote:u must use a stamina type and meteo will arsorb some energy
Honestly it would probably be SPAM'd to hell and the Advanced forum is the only safe-haven to combat such posts.
whatevz
Dan, this is actually the exact sort of post which will antagonise people, especially with what has been going on ...
But that aside, I agree that a testing-based thread will be very useful in speeding up decisions on tiering.
I'll leave it up to the committee to decide between each other if it is worth a thought.
I apologize for that, I meant no real offense just that a lot of threads become chaotic, be it over time or acutely, which isn't something I'd want to happen.
Is Kronos really as good as Bull/Kerbecs, or does not really matter...?
What do you think about Basalt Bull/Kerbecs BD145 MB/EDS for stamina? In my opinion, BD145 really helps, and EDS and MB keep it from scraping.
To me, the above customisation with MB is more of a Defense type, but I'd agree with the suggestion of adding it somewhere.
I disagree with Earth being taken down now, I've gone into stamina recently and Earth AD145DS/SD/WD is amazing and pure stamina bey, with it's very low recoil and all.
Hell Kerbecs and Basalt stamina combinations are praised highly because we only use WD. I know for a fact WD succumbs to recoil wheels badly. Normally recoil wheels damage themselves during the match themselves but Hell is saved by BD145 and Basalt has compact weight generally distributed in the outer part of the wheel so neither of them do as badly as Rock would vs WD. I think WD while useful, misguides us with it's weakness.
Whenever I play MF-H Earth Bull AD145WD/whatever vs MF-H Hell Kerbecs BD145WD, whichever is shot first loses which is why I haven't posted results.
Hell BD145CS just loses no matter what.
I honestly think Earth should be put back on, with the addition of DS for stamina: it has near equal (more in my tests) stamina to WD with much more defensive capabilities (more than SD).
DS in my books is really good for stamina. It looks essentially like CS except completely plastic. (irrelevant side note, lol)
Yeah, Burns recoil is bad on any tip so ... That can stay off.
Even though I did do it, I did have some reservations myself about removing Earth. There really isn't any other Wheel out there with such minimal recoil, and high Stamina. It has some use still despite Hell BD145, Basalt, and Scythe. What do you all think?
DS is an interesting part ... though I'm not sure if it is worth using, especially considering how powerful the D series Bottoms Defense can be when shot weakly. I admittedly have not tested it extensively, but I don't see much reason to use it over D, WD, EDS, or CS.
Agreed. Keep earth, and remove burn.
I've noticed quite a few actually still use DS for stamina. But with the release of EDS, which has excellent stamina, DS might not be as suitable to be listed.
Meh, good point Uwik.
As for weak launching: that isn't the main purpose for stamina at all though , is it? That shouldn't really be put before actual stamina capabilties. Plus the weak launching works with generally all tips. I really only did WD tests and so forth just because using stamina vs attack would be the most drastic indicator of weak launching's effectiveness. Other tips work fine with it too.
CS is really a sore thumb on that little list there. It would get completely trounced in a stamina setting, undoubtably. Again, CS is only being thought of because of Basalt or Hell customizations it's in. Those aren't what I'd consider pure stamina but recoil stamina. I'm not going to repeat myself all over again but yeah if you are playing basalt combo+ CS against Hell WD, hell will lose. Like I said earlier it has lead some of you to believe that is CS' doing when it is really Basalt's doing. (or hells deending on the combo) and were just blinded by the fact Basalt is winning which is our fault for not addressing WDs crippling weakness earlier. (or even analyse how basalt and hell were actually winning.)
Actually, you know what, I'll address reasons why to use DS over those tips:
• vs D: better stamina
• vs WD: better defense and in my tests, greater stamina
• vs EDS: as I said in response to Uwik, EDS would be better though I recall people getting lemons
• vs CS: full plastic vs semi rubber? CS will just die plain and simple. Badly.
If you really have such a fondness for CS stamina (however misguided by WD sucking vs well distributed recoil wheels) you really should put on EDS as it is just a full plastic, free spinning CS.
Is the judging of putting DS in stamina really including it's defense properties?
I get that it has potentially more stamina, but saying how it does with 'weak shoot', and how it compares to CS or it's defense is better than WD doesn't make sense to me. We've always said that to be a top tier stamina it has to have top tier stamina; which doesn't mean defense.
If it has more stamina, then that's fine, but we judge it's placement based on what it can outspin, not based on if it is like CS without rubber.
And I personally am not a fan of CS for stamina. I get that it's not a pure stamina part, but to be top tier it has to be, even if Basalt 230 CS can outspin Hell BD145WD. Well, IMO at least. As Kei mentioned to me a week or two ago, the ambiguity is what makes this tier list what it is. So, it lists stamina wheels, then stamina tracks next to each wheel, then stamina clear wheels, and then stamina bottoms next to them. CS isnt a 'stamina' part specifically, so i dont think it belongs there.
This is actually difficult to explain for some reason.
This wasn't to anybody in particular, I just saw the mentioning of it's defense and how that is another reason to be added. I'm kinda agreeing and disagreeing here. Even though Dan mentioned some (hah, now that I look at it; most) of the things I did, there's things about what was written in 'why to use DS over those bottoms' that I disagree with, and just the feeling of defense properties being brought to stamina.
I may just be spitting out pointless words, but I'm just saying my opinion.
We're on the same page about a bunch of attributes brought up and it's irrelevancy to Stamina.
The only reason I mentioned all those tips and why/how DS is 'better' is because of this:
(Aug. 20, 2011 6:58 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]DS is an interesting part ... though I'm not sure if it is worth using, especially considering how powerful the D series Bottoms Defense can be when shot weakly. I admittedly have not tested it extensively, but I don't see much reason to use it over D, WD, EDS, or CS.
Otherwise I'd see it completely irrelevant.
As for DS looking like CS, it was a joke directed at the fact Kei brought up CS for stamina awhile ago. Nothing of actual substance.
Though defensive properties are related to how it handles attack, and these recoil wheels being used for stamina. (Basalt, Hell)
Gonna bump this. MF-H VariAres CH120/BD145RF should be added immediately.
CH120RF was completely capable of neutering MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145CS. Only 2 wins from Basalts end. Lol it was indeed ridiculous. I'll note Basalt was not at the tornado ridge when KOs occured (which was every one of Varis wins) but from the center. Obviously making it very hard to KO.
Edit: I've been thinking lately, why not separate each category further when applicable?
Ex.
Recoil Defense (Gravity/Vari BD145CS)
Grip Defense (Generic Wheel Defense wheel on tier-list + RS/RB)
Weight Defense (Basalt BD145CS)
etc.
OHKO Attack (Vari)
Smash attack (Lightning, Beat/whatever the heck else)
etc.
(all under their respective/generic categories as a common point)
and give anti-meta their own category.
Basalt BD145RF, Meteo/Gravity WD, LDrago Destroy 230CS and the like.
So, you think CH120 is better than R145 for Vari Ares? And you think even BD145 is better than R145 ...?
Generic categories are fine. There's no need to become so specific.
I only mentioned what I have used, which I can vouch for. :V I never said anything like that haha.
I have just experienced better results at 120 than 145 heights.
BD145 isn't exactly godsend for attackers, really.
I haven't really seen much results for Vari on R145 that were astounding except for R145MF. (IIRC)
About the request for a combo testing thread... We have
this; isn't that topic almost exactly what was requested? And that topic goes nowhere.
This kinda came out of nowhere from me, but I saw that topic just now and remembered the request.
Yeah, that got revived after I brought the idea up.
I then never insisted.
What tracks other than CH120 do well with it? I've read BD145, but I read mixed feelings.
And, where do we stand with BD145 being added to Scythe? It's clearly the best track for it.
And, I don't think GB145 is suitable for defense now. It'd be ridiculous to use it in place of TH170, 230, and BD145. Obviously tests are the best way to prove this, so I guess that's something that should probably get done, since there shouldn't really be a lot of necessary tests.
(Sep. 01, 2011 10:48 PM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: [ -> ]What tracks other than CH120 do well with it? I've read BD145, but I read mixed feelings.
And, where do we stand with BD145 being added to Scythe? It's clearly the best track for it.
I'm actually uncertain, I don't have many gimmick tracks lol.
BD145 is probably really good just because of the extra weight on Vari (as if it needs anymore, running tank right thur.) and only short coming is against another BD145 bey usually.
I've read a lot about GB145 for attack throughout my entire membership here, I'd like some of your opinions on whether it is worth it. (I don't have it yet. lol)
BD145 on Scythe is a must-have from the results I've seen. Its outstanding and obviously superior to any other Scythe custom in all fields.
I don't think many people have/just aren't testing VariAres. When I first read the OHKO use I just dismissed it because I would think it isn't consistent enough for my liking and chances are, if it wasn't for the contest, I would have never gotten VariAres unless, of course, it was on the tier list. :V
Apparently 85 is a monster on it because it can KO all variants of Basalt. (230 too
JSHOCK: )
Perhaps we should slap on the generic attack track list? Though I feel we should start giving more of the gimmick tracks a chance (R145, again GB145) and maybe add on MF for certain attack customs.
There is little variation on the list (Attack - strictly RF) when we have more tips to create different kinds of attackers. I think we should put R145 on Gravity and Vari whenever it might be placed and also put MF on for Gravity BD145MF which has so much success across the pond that whenever the words Gravity BD145 come up it is assumed we all mean MF, not RF.
Careful guys, if we go through with all these changes we'll be virtually all caught up with the customizations forum and therefore not a single soul can complain about our 'laziness'. (though in actuality it is our 'business' haha.)
(Sep. 01, 2011 11:25 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]I've read a lot about GB145 for attack throughout my entire membership here, I'd like some of your opinions on whether it is worth it. (I don't have it yet. lol)
I'd choose it anyday over 145. The outwards weight gives more speed, less recoil, which = more smash.
Quote:BD145 on Scythe is a must-have from the results I've seen. Its outstanding and obviously superior to any other Scythe custom in all fields.
qft.
Quote:Perhaps we should slap on the generic attack track list? Though I feel we should start giving more of the gimmick tracks a chance (R145, again GB145) and maybe add on MF for certain attack customs.
It shouldn't be too generic, although for basically every attack wheel; 85 (so 90 as well), CH120, R145 or H145 (in this case R145), GB145, BD145 are what works. Those are the attack tracks that pretty much always give the best results.
Maybe in the standard testing procedures topic it should list tracks/bottoms to go through testing (I.e. If you're testing a metal wheel for defense, use 85/90, BD145, TH170/230, and test against top tier attack)? Almost like a flowchart but one sentence, haha.
Quote:There is little variation on the list (Attack - strictly RF) when we have more tips to create different kinds of attackers. I think we should put R145 on Gravity and Vari whenever it might be placed and also put MF on for Gravity BD145MF which has so much success across the pond that whenever the words Gravity BD145 come up it is assumed we all mean MF, not RF.
i agree. Like all things on the tier list, it'd be at the discression of the user (so don't use BD145XF). Fact is, MF and XF are parts that can be as useful (or potentially less depending on the user and opponents/ metagame in your area) as RF variants.
Quote:Careful guys, if we go through with all these changes we'll be virtually all caught up with the customizations forum and therefore not a single soul can complain about our 'laziness'. (though in actuality it is our 'business' haha.)
Well if they want it they test it, haha!
Proposal:
Attack
Addition of: Metal Face-Heavy Variares CH120/R145/BD145 RF/LRF/MF
Removal of Gravity variants (This should be discussed, but I feel that Gravity no longer holds enough advantage in the current metagame)
Defense
Addition of MB and RB under
Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario 230/TH170/BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/CS
Stamina
Addition of BD145 under
Scythe Kronos/Bull/Aquario 230/TH170/AD145/DF145/145/100 WD/SD/D/EDS
EDIT: It should perhaps be mentioned also in the OP regarding CS. CS is a unique bottom, while some have excellent enough stamina to outspin even WD, some are also just plain bad. Some are very aggressive, enough to be used as an attack bottom competitively.
Balance
Addition of
Metal Face-Heavy/Light Sycthe Kronos/Bull/Aquario 230/TH170 CS
Although this combination does not exhibit enough attack power, it has an excellent stamina and very little recoil, which makes it exhibit defense properties also.
I think putting RB anywhere RS is would be good.
I am not familiar with the proposed balance combination, so I can't really give you my opinion.
Don't forget R2F on that VariAres.
Everything else I agree with completely, though, perhaps adding 85 to VariAres track list would be good, I mean, it is competitive and top-tier somewhere. Plus it can KO BD145/230CS and a bunch of other stuff apparently.
Yeah, I forgot about R2F.
I haven't tried 85 on new attack wheels lately, since most of the 4D wheels are quite wide. It works with Blitz, since Blitz has a considerably small diameter. I fear that 85 on VariAres might scrape now and then, since it is quite wide.
Well if you're using a new RF it should be fine.