I might be wrong, but I get the feeling that some people think that it is a beyblade's recoil that KOs the opposing beyblade.
I haven't really kept up with the metagame, but from what I've read in the last couple of pages, the reason Lightning should be removed (if it should be removed) is Blitz.
Again, this is all conjecture because I'm going based on these last couple of pages, but I think Blitz should be prioritized over Vari because both produce similar results, but with Blitz you don't have to worry about the recoil that comes with using Vari.
I do not think any of those people are allowed in this forum.
Although, technically, opposing Beyblade recoil does play a factor!
You know what I mean. I'll edit it! Also, I think you missed my first edit
Blitz has fairly large amounts of recoil as well, though. I've heard conflicting reports on whether it's larger than Vari's or not - and I do not own VariAres, so I cannot check for myself.
Neither Blitz or Vari are as idiot-proof as Lightning, but they both score MUCH higher win ratios against every existing Defense threat. Attack is already an "unsafe" choice for tournaments, and Lightning is a literal suicide move for your Beypoints if you're in an area where people know their Defense meta. MF VariAres R145RF remains the most-used and most-successful Attack combo in the entire WBO meta right now.
Honestly, Lightning isn't supposed to be KOing defense type beyblades. That's what we have stamina types for. A lot of people don't support this way of thinking anymore.
If Vari is beating out defense types like that then there technically isn't anything that can stop it. The reason it isn't banned from play is because it's hard to use. Since, that means you are considering player skill in determining the tier list, then Lightning should stay because it's way more easy to use.
What I find interesting is that some people insist that recoil and smash are somehow completely separate concepts rather than two sides of the same coin - a forceful collision between two beyblades that is governed by Newton's 3rd Law.
There is always "recoil" in every collision that "smashes" out a beyblade, and the variables associated with how much are determined by:
1) At what position of the beyblade is the vector of the recoil force being applied, and
2) What is the momentum differential between the two beys.
For variable 1, if the attacking bey collides with another bey on a vector that passes through the center of gravity of both beys (a straight hit), then the recoil vector also passes through the attacker's center of gravity and we will see the attacker bounce back from the collision. If the attacker collides with the other bey on a vector that does not pass through the center of gravity of the other bey (a tangential hit) and it is the "arm" or "wing" of the attacker that hits the other bey, then the recoil vector is expressed by slowing down the rotational speed of the attacker.
For variable 2, it is much easier to understand. The larger your velocity vector in the direction of the collision and/or the heavier your bey is, the less it will move for any given collision.
This is why I am relatively unconcerned about the supposed recoil of an attacker as long as it has arms or wings. To me, recoil just means that the collision is a straight hit - sometimes you win those and sometimes you lose those, but to the extent that you can launch the bey with great speed you can control whether you win or lose a straight collision. And as long as the attacker has wings, you have a much better chance of avoiding recoil altogether by scoring a tangential hit.
VariAres and Blitz both have prominent arms/wings, and are both great attackers that perform better IRL than LLD does - which is why I feel that they deserve a spot in the top tier above LLD. To me Blitz is less consistent than VariAres, but others' results may vary (pun intended).
(Dec. 02, 2011 2:49 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: [ -> ]Honestly, Lightning isn't supposed to be KOing defense type beyblades. That's what we have stamina types for. A lot of people don't support this way of thinking anymore.
If Vari is beating out defense types like that then there technically isn't anything that can stop it. The reason it isn't banned from play is because it's hard to use. Since, that means you are considering player skill in determining the tier list, then Lightning should stay because it's way more easy to use.
Regardless of what you read over at the Customization Forum, VariAres and Blitz are NOT beating out defense types as much as the testers claimed. Times have changed and members get 'creative' with the results nowadays.
I'm OK with attack types, not great, yet decent enough to get consistent wins over stamina types. But against defense, my win rate for MF-H VariAres R145 RF against MF-H Basalt BD145 CS is about 50%-60%. Against the same combo with MB is slightly less. These are much less than the common assumption that people have about VariAres / Blitz.
Attack types are not overwhelming Defense types. This much I can vouch for.
We're seeing something almost completely contradictory to that in the States, Uwik. To the best of my knowledge, every tournament a capable VariAres user is in, they always place.
Moreover, claiming that because you cannot replicate results they are a lie is just... icky. Many users cannot use VariAres very well, but we do have many that are actually capable of their allegedly "creative" results. I'm not saying every result is sterling and should be considered 100% accurate to all situations, but skill plays a MASSIVE factor in utilizing Vari - the difference between an "okay" user and a good one really is about 30-40% win ratio.
With that said, even in the hands of an imbecile, VariAres will out-KO Lightning any day of the week, show up on Saturday to steal his lunch, and then come back on Sunday to eat it in front of him.
(Dec. 02, 2011 5:02 PM)Uwik Wrote: [ -> ]Regardless of what you read over at the Customization Forum, VariAres and Blitz are NOT beating out defense types as much as the testers claimed. Times have changed and members get 'creative' with the results nowadays.
YES! I've been staying away from posting something like this. If stamina types have high win rates against the defense combos then people should use them. I understand that people would want an attack type that beats defense types, but in reality, I don't think that will really happen that often in tournament situations.
With that, I'm sure that Lightning and Vari/Blitz get similar results against stamina types. Actually, it'd probably get better results because of less self KOs.
Edit: Quick question, who here comfortably uses Vari in tournaments against defense types, or at all for that matter?
: Well, to be fair, I don't think Uwik is saying anything that a lot of people aren't already thinking. All testing has to be taken with a grain of salt - and some testing with more salt than others.
While I agree that skill plays a huge role in attack, I would also point out that 1-person vs 2-person attack testing plays a huge role as well.
As a single individual, you launch in the stamina or defense combo first, then the attack combo. But how do you launch the attack combo? - Sliding shoot directly into the defense combo opposite a gap? = 100% KO
- Sliding shoot away from the defense combo? = smaller % than it should be
Either way you aren't producing "real" results. Maybe we should talk about a standard way to do attack type testing that would help everyone to provide 1-person results that are more realistic.
Any thoughts on that?
: I use VariAres in real tournaments to good effect, but I only use it when I think I'm going up against stamina types - and I would never choose VariAres against a defense type.
(Dec. 02, 2011 8:39 PM)Hazel Wrote: [ -> ]We're seeing something almost completely contradictory to that in the States, Uwik. To the best of my knowledge, every tournament a capable VariAres user is in, they always place.
Moreover, claiming that because you cannot replicate results they are a lie is just... icky. Many users cannot use VariAres very well, but we do have many that are actually capable of their allegedly "creative" results. I'm not saying every result is sterling and should be considered 100% accurate to all situations, but skill plays a MASSIVE factor in utilizing Vari - the difference between an "okay" user and a good one really is about 30-40% win ratio.
With that said, even in the hands of an imbecile, VariAres will out-KO Lightning any day of the week, show up on Saturday to steal his lunch, and then come back on Sunday to eat it in front of him.
I'm claiming that not because I can't replicate the results. Take this for example, Yamislayer's Dojo thread. Players can call exits 3 times in a row. Does it make them able to do that every single time? No, they won't be able to.
Once in a while I get 100% win rate using VariAres, but it doesn't mean that it happens all the time. I won't use VariAres against a defensive bey in a tournament. I only use VariAres against stamina types. You are forgetting the fact that Stamina is also a type found in tournaments. VariAres' placement in the winning combo thread could also very well is the result of this.
Secondly, to be honest, there's only so much a person can excel in attack types. You can pretty much get the gist of how they perform once you're proficient enough. I'm not calling anybody liars, although some of the results are quite far fetched for the general audience. What it means is the result that is the most eye candy gets posted, and people just jump on the bandwagon and go 'oh wow', and further over-hyped it.
Thirdly, skills play a factor in ANY attack types, not just VariAres.
Yes, but Vari is much harder to use properly than others - this is known information. People who are great with every other MFB attacker get ahold of Vari and struggle with it, because of the weight and several other factors - but they do eventually get the hang of it.
VariAres started excelling at a point in time where you couldn't throw a rock in a tournament without hitting some kid's Basalt BD145 combo. Basalt BD145 is no longer so monstrously present, making it even easier for Vari to sweep tournaments, but the point is Vari was the first reliable attack option against that, and is currently still the best non-Stamina thing you can throw at it.
(Dec. 02, 2011 8:50 PM)Arupaeo Wrote: [ -> ]: Well, to be fair, I don't think Uwik is saying anything that a lot of people aren't already thinking. All testing has to be taken with a grain of salt - and some testing with more salt than others.
While I agree that skill plays a huge role in attack, I would also point out that 1-person vs 2-person attack testing plays a huge role as well.
As a single individual, you launch in the stamina or defense combo first, then the attack combo. But how do you launch the attack combo? - Sliding shoot directly into the defense combo opposite a gap? = 100% KO
- Sliding shoot away from the defense combo? = smaller % than it should be
Either way you aren't producing "real" results. Maybe we should talk about a standard way to do attack type testing that would help everyone to provide 1-person results that are more realistic.
Any thoughts on that?
I know testing should be taken with salt - and not a grain, either. No one here who has seen many of my posts in Customizations will accuse me of blindly trusting any new John with a Fancy Scoreboard - if anything, I am exactly the opposite of what I am preaching, here. I wait to see a large sample size from people who are skeptical, and from all skill ranges.
As for solo testing realism... it honestly would not be difficult to build a robotic arm that could launch at or near full human strength with a straight launch(using an LL2 and likely an air compressor), but I doubt that is a practical solution. The Nemesis thing is the closest we have, and it's not really a suitable vector due to the middle moving and Prototype Nemesis not being a good substitute for a real competitive Beyblade.
As much as I welcome the coming singularity, I don't think a simple robotic arm would do the trick.
I also like to see a very large sample size in terms of deciding whether something should go on the top tier or not, and to give me ideas about the potential range of outcomes. But as I've said before in other threads, the only testing I actually trust is my own - and I don't even trust that for attack testing unless I am testing with another skilled blader.
(Dec. 02, 2011 8:53 PM)Arupaeo Wrote: [ -> ]: I use VariAres in real tournaments to good effect, but I only use it when I think I'm going up against stamina types - and I would never choose VariAres against a defense type.
In that case, wouldn't you prefer to use Lightning over Vari against a stamina type?
(Dec. 02, 2011 9:37 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: [ -> ] (Dec. 02, 2011 8:53 PM)Arupaeo Wrote: [ -> ]: I use VariAres in real tournaments to good effect, but I only use it when I think I'm going up against stamina types - and I would never choose VariAres against a defense type.
In that case, wouldn't you prefer to use Lightning over Vari against a stamina type?
Arupaeo is kind of known for being quite good with his Vari combos, so it's likely he's comfortable enough to risk the extra recoil in return for the extra ability to handle hybrid TH170CS or TH170D combos with an MF.
(Dec. 02, 2011 9:18 PM)Hazel Wrote: [ -> ]VariAres started excelling at a point in time where you couldn't throw a rock in a tournament without hitting some kid's Basalt BD145 combo. Basalt BD145 is no longer so monstrously present, making it even easier for Vari to sweep tournaments, but the point is Vari was the first reliable attack option against that, and is currently still the best non-Stamina thing you can throw at it.
Basalt BD145 is still very much present competitively. I have yet to see a player who's daring enough to actually use VariAres against it. The only ones that do are the newcomers to the game. It's no longer as scary as before, mainly due to stamina types, namely Scythe and Phantom, not because of VariAres / Blitz. There's still no reliable attack option against Basalt BD145 in a competitive environment.
(Dec. 02, 2011 9:24 PM)Arupaeo Wrote: [ -> ]As much as I welcome the coming singularity, I don't think a simple robotic arm would do the trick.
I also like to see a very large sample size in terms of deciding whether something should go on the top tier or not, and to give me ideas about the potential range of outcomes. But as I've said before in other threads, the only testing I actually trust is my own - and I don't even trust that for attack testing unless I am testing with another skilled blader.
I truly, madly, deeply agree to this whole post, especially with the 2 players test for attacks, since it does make a huge difference.
(Dec. 02, 2011 8:47 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: [ -> ]With that, I'm sure that Lightning and Vari/Blitz get similar results against stamina types. Actually, it'd probably get better results because of less self KOs.
Well, like attack, stamina types got upgraded too with Scythe and Phantom. It's somewhat more difficult for Lightning to KO Phantom, compared to VariAres / Blitz.
"leave Lightning on because VariAres and Blitz are clearly better and it can't KO defense beys"
?
I would go up against any bey with VariAres, why so timid guys? It is obvious test results do not constantly reflect tournament performance, but I'd gladly do that match up.
I doubt Lightning would do well against the Phantom TH170 hybrids running around, either, since they're extremely heavy and have pretty high Defense attributes. MF Phantom Aquario TH170CS comes to mind, but D is also pretty common.
Since Phantom is very heavy and the single most daunting threat in the metagame right now(if only due to use and sheer versatility), Vari and Blitz should be preferable to Lightning in all situations.
Even a meta where Earth is the heaviest Defense MW, Blitz and Vari do not have so much recoil that it would threaten them.
(Dec. 02, 2011 9:37 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: [ -> ] (Dec. 02, 2011 8:53 PM)Arupaeo Wrote: [ -> ]: I use VariAres in real tournaments to good effect, but I only use it when I think I'm going up against stamina types - and I would never choose VariAres against a defense type.
In that case, wouldn't you prefer to use Lightning over Vari against a stamina type?
That wouldn't be my preference, no. Vari has more ways to win with a wide profile, multiple arms, and the ability to go left or right.
In general I am more concerned about the bottom when trying to classify combo type. In my experience, VariAres (and other attackers) has some trouble KOing RS, RSF and RDF tips, so that's why I wouldn't use any attack type against a defensive combo. This is very much in line with the classic view of which type beats which.
So anyone up for a nice revamp of the list? I mean we have 2 freshly baked committee members! (one of which lied to me when I grew suspicious..
) Why not celebrate?
I could easily re-write the list, but it is Kei's thing, so I'd wait for an official word from him on it.
These are the things it looks like we'll be doing to it, though - or at least what we should be, imo:
Attack:
+ MF Blitz 85/100/CH120 RF/R2F
+ MF/MF-H Beat 85/GB145 RF/R2F
- Gravity
- Lightning
Defense:
+ MF/MF-H Death BD145/TH170/230 CS/RSF/RDF
+ RDF to every Defense custom
- Libra/Earth
Stamina:
+ Phantom 230/TH170/AD145/BD145 WD/SD/D/EDS
- Earth
- Hell
Regardless of whatever squabbling we do over certain things, the majority of this is not only confirmed by the tournament scene and testing, but just absolute common knowledge now, so the fidgeting back and forth needs to go away; this list is currently uselessly outdated, for the most part.
Nice summary Hazel. That's basically what I see as well.
agreed.
hohohoho, you want Beat on the list now, Hazel ma boi?
I'm in agreement!
There was fussing over there only being two attack types on the list, and Beat is more reliable than Lightning against most things. Beat makes an absolute fool of TH170 combos when on GB145, even in inexperienced hands.