World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc.

Okay, think I got everything that I wanted down. Sorry it is so long, just a bunch of stuff I've considered for a while that I am now able to post.

My thoughts on lightning: Even with my general lack of success with variares I'll take 20% with a risk of self KO over a flat 0% any day. It's dated and needs to go.
Frankly, if you can't master Variares, use Blitz and/or an MF-H :\

The track/tip thing: The problem with not telling them this is that it creates more issues for the moderation staff when people misinterpret that/don't think about it and then go and spread this through the Q&A Threads, the rest of us report them, blah blah blah.

Secondly, I feel our first and foremost job really is to inform, once we do that properly, then we can focus on making people think. I do actually want to see everyone succeed at tournaments, even if it means they need to be babied to do so. Maybe I'm overly altruistic, but I really like strong competition, even if they haven't worked as hard as me to get there. That's just my thoughts though, and I acknowledge the validity of your stance, though

For Stamina, I still strongly suggest we add Cancer as an option, at the very least to Phantom. It really is an excellent clear wheel, and there is a good reason it has become so widely accepted. I'm not fussed if we leave Bull there at all, though I dislike it on basalt, it's still a perfectly serviceable clear wheel.

Do check out the Duo thread (spoiler: it's probably the best wheel out at the moment) but I'm fine with it waiting, I just wanted to test the waters, and at least give it a mention. It will be on this list eventually anyway, of that I have no doubt.

Libra is well past it's prime, to be honest. Death is the final nail in its coffin, really. That said, I haven't got to the Libra v Earth v Death for stamina idea yet. But, considering its main benefit was that it was significantly heavier than everything else, a title it lost long ago, and the fact it hasn't really won anything for a long time now, I think we can safely remove it.

As for which has the better stamina of those three, I think it's Death, but I will try and test it tomorrow or the day after, just to make 100% certain.

I would very much like to see RDF added for defense, but I am aware of Arupaeo's request for comparative tests. I haven't had time to do them, but it's near the top of the "to do" list.

Other smaller updates for the draft list: 85 should probably be added to Blitz, and MF-H should certainly be listed as an option for both it and Variares, it goes a long way to controlling the recoil of both wheels that some people seem to find difficult to work with.
Kerbecs should be added to the MF-H Basalt TH170CS combination, when oriented correctly it is roughly the best clear wheel for that combo.


That said, I am perfectly happy with that draft being put up in the interim, because the current list in the OP is badly out of date, and it's kind of awkward to direct people here when they ask for combo advice


: Which two wheels are you referring to? Just because, if we remove it from stamina, we're left with Phantom and Scythe, and Scythe vs Basalt seems to be somewhat situational. Not that I don't think it should be removed (it should), I'm just curious, in case we should be discussing another addition to the stamina list.

@th!nk: LOL

Sometimes a person is purposefully vague...

But since you asked, I'll tell you that the two wheels I have in mind as being a tier above Basalt are Phantom and Duo. I didn't spell that out because I don't have the tests in hand to try and elevate Duo and I didn't want us to get sidetracked.

That being said, I also think that Scythe is a better stamina wheel than Basalt - just not a tier above.

I had Death romping Earth in my Stamina tests, and it will probably also do a lot better than Libra, too.

I really think RDF should be added to Defense if not entirely because it is much better than RSF at resisting KO, and can work very well on BD145. That is an extremely important functionality.

RDF is a lot like RS (seriously look at RDF's tip and an RS that's been used a few times), but with better balance and compatibility with BD145, basically, RS without most of what prevents RS from being commonly used. Stamina and Opposite Spin are still problems for it, though, but RSF is up there too. I will try and get those comparative tests done ASAP though.

: Sorry, I was actually thinking about Death, while it has bad balance, it shares basalt's ability to grind things down, and does have pretty good stamina. That said, once Duo gets more testing, it probably won't be worth considering Death in terms of stamina anyway. Honestly, I don't think there's too much risk of being sidetracked, Duo has given universally good results, we just need a bit more time to see how it settles in.

(Dec. 18, 2011  11:15 PM)Hazel Wrote: [ -> ]I really think RDF should be added to Defense if not entirely because it is much better than RSF at resisting KO, and can work very well on BD145. That is an extremely important functionality.

I agree, RDF working on BD145 is extremely important for defense. Hopefully we see some tests that bear out our theories!

@th!nk: I'd like to see some mirror matches between Death and Scythe to see if there is a clear winner. Even if it Death doesn't stay on the tier list for long, there is still value in figuring this out.

I played with my RDF on BD145 a lot when I first got it(it was all I did with the RDF before putting it away), and I can definitely confirm that even against Blitz 85 R2F combos, it does not floor scrape a hundredth as often as RS, making it a very viable and important tip on that track.

How come 230 for stamina?

(Dec. 19, 2011  12:08 AM)Arupaeo Wrote: [ -> ]@th!nk: I'd like to see some mirror matches between Death and Scythe to see if there is a clear winner. Even if it Death doesn't stay on the tier list for long, there is still value in figuring this out.

I'll try to get it done tomorrow.

(Dec. 19, 2011  8:29 AM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: [ -> ]How come 230 for stamina?

It simply hasn't been totally eclipsed by TH170 for stamina usage. There are two threads about it, IIRC, one in this forum and one in Beyblade Customisations.

Anyway, just to make clear, the one point that I actually care most about from that huge post, MF-H on attackers, anyone disagree (preferably after trying both MF and MF-H on Blitz/Variares)?


Oh, there was one more thing, a few pages back, Kei mentioned he felt LDD had better stamina than Gravity. I disagree, having used both pretty heavily, LDD is poorly balanced, whereas Gravity is decent. In terms of balance, Gravity is pretty close to MLD. Not that I think it should be on the tier list just yet, though, MF Gravity Perseus BD145MF *could* probably make the cut, it's not really as prominent any more.

Gravity is really the master of unusual combinations, as the only other dual-spin wheel, Variares, has ridiculously poor stamina (mainly due to its recoil), meaning Gravity is the only one that can really abuse the inherent versatility of Dual-Spin.

I'm going to be a little annoying here and point out how rare it is that any "unusual" customisations ever make it onto the tier list, no matter how well they do. I guess this is largely because of the relatively short time they work, but I guess I wonder if we're not all a little reluctant to accept them at times. Plus, when we ask if something should be added, we tend to ask about Parts, not combinations.

I understand adequate caution, of course (though, Ray still made it on at one point ), and it's not that important right now because of how formulaic most combo's are at the moment, but it's just something I think we could be mindful of in future, I guess? I mean, I understand asking for more testing and tournament results, but we should consider the fact that people tend to stick with what they are comfortable with, so these combo's are mainly used by their creators and the limited people who test them, as most people tend to test more formulaic combo's.

I have some extra thoughts on this that I want to put into a more ordered form before I share them, and again, I understand that some of you may consider this a bit brash of me (feel free to tear it to shreds, ahah), but yeah, I think we could consider doing a little more to encourage diversity of combo's, I guess?

Wow,finally i see a Tier List that i like and with a lot of things that i've battled to see "in" or "out",lol!
Anyway,i think that something must be changed!

Competitive Metal Fight Beyblade Combos Wrote:ATTACK

• Metal Face Blitz Unicorno 90/100/CH120 RF/R2F/LRF --> 90 is too much in my opinion, i mean compared to the possible opponents, of course, i think that 100 and CH120 are good enough!
  
• Metal Face VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
  

DEFENSE

• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/CS/MB --> i don't see 230\TH170!
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Death Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/CS --> i don't see 230\TH170!
  

STAMINA

• Phantom Bull/Aquario 230/TH170/BD145/AD145/85 WD/SD/D/EDS --> BD+WD? Horrible!
  
• Basalt Bull/Aquario 230/TH170/BD145/AD145/85 WD/SD/D/EDS --> BD+WD? Horrible! Basalt in Stamina? What? LOL
  
• Scythe Kronos 230/TH170/BD145/AD145/100 WD/SD/D/EDS --> BD+WD? Horrible!
  

BALANCE

• Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Bull/Aquario TH170CS --> can be defeat easly,but it's normal for balance, i think that should be added an antimetagame combo.
  

My thoughts: Leave 90 on Blitz, it works better than 100 IMO, though CH120 is still the best track.
Defense: Leave 230 off, TH170 directly outclasses it for defense, does it not, and 230 is pretty easy to counter now. TH170 should go on, especially if we add RDF.

Stamina: I mentioned clearing up the tip selection (as TH170/230+WD is also pretty bad), but Kei wanted to leave it to make people think for themselves. I still disagree, and posted my counterargument, but I respect his opinion, ahah.

MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170CS is still a very useful combo. Though, we need to add kerbecs to the CW's there.

Also, sorry for the delays in the tests I promised, I've had a busy few days but will try to get it done ASAP.

TH170RDF is pretty hard to KO, and 195 height tends to be awkward for 145-height attackers. To be honest, I'd much rather face off against GB145 than TH170, were I using an attacker.

OK. That sounds like the beginning of a pretty good case for adding TH170 when/if RDF gets added to the tier list...

I'd just like to state for the record that I get much better results from 100 and 85 on Blitz than 90.

MF is also missing, oddly, from the Phantom section. MF Phantom Cancer TH170D is an extremely potent combo, if I remember correctly.

You may be thinking MF-F, as that seems to work oddly well with Phantom? Just a guess, though.

I tried trawling through the thread, but it is quite a tiring read...

No, MF Phantom TH170D won at least one tournament, if I recall correctly. Or tested out well. I know there's some reason I've been recommending it to people, either way. If you want to approach purely from a physics standpoint, it makes sense as a combo.

MF-H Phantom TH170CS did, too.

Mmm, I vaguely recall it, but can't remember whether it was one of your postings that I remember...

MF-H Phantom TH170CS is an excellent combo, but is there enough testing on it?

I don't think it was ever really formally tested - it just had a couple of tournament wins.

Phantom TH170D variants have won tournaments, I remember that well because Hazel was offended by me that time hahaha.

I think MF-H should be added in the attackers section and I wonder why MF-F isn't already in the stamina section..?
I'm sort of on the fence about the formatting of the list. Each '/' is deserving of its own space as it is its own independent combination and if someone was silly enough to put BD145 and WD together they may test it out before a tournament but I can imagine a lot of users not even bothering because they got it off the tier list.

I won Go Ho Ho Shoot! mainly using MF-H Phantom Kerbecs TH170D, It works well against a wide range of combos, just some I remember beating - MF-H Basalt ___ TH170D (very close), Low Track Phantoms (very popular in the UK), MF-H Basalt Bull 230CS and MF VariAres R145RF (I think I got lucky with this one).

Can we all agree on this, then? I just really want to get it up even if we leave a few things off for a little while we discuss them.

Competitive Metal Fight Beyblade Combos Wrote:ATTACK

• Metal Face Blitz Unicorno II 85/100/CH120 RF/R2F/LRF
  
• Metal Face VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
  

DEFENSE

• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/CS/MB
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Death Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/CS
  

STAMINA

• Phantom Bull/Aquario 230/TH170/BD145/AD145/85 WD/SD/D/EDS
  
• Scythe Kronos 230/TH170/BD145/AD145/100 WD/SD/D/EDS
  

BALANCE

• Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Kerbecs/Aquario/Bull TH170CS
  

I tried to avoid letting my opinion interfere with this, so I left MF-H off attackers, and Cancer off Phantom, even though I strongly think they should be there, and left TH170 and RDF out of defense (though I still think both should be added, 195 height, even on CS, is awkard for most people to beat with attack, let alone using RS/RSF). Plus, which would you rather face? TH170 or GB145?

I did add Kerbecs to the Basalt TH170CS combo because it is not only the best CW for it but also the most popular, so I figured it was an oversight. I added 85 to Blitz and removed 90 as 85 and 100 seem to be the most popular tracks (CH120 is better than both, even against Basalt BD145CS, and I like 90, but this seems to be the prevalent opinion).

Also removed basalt from Stamina, as I think everyone has decided it's time there is done.

Honestly, I just really want to get this up, we can argue about the extra stuff once we have it updated, because the list in the OP is very dated


Still gotta do those comparative tests with RDF, but I kinda think if it does really well, seeing as RS doesn't work very well with BD145 (it works well on scythe BD145 though, so it may just be Basalt BD145 it doesn't cooperate with), but we may end up losing GB145 for defense, seeing as that is pretty much the only reason it's there.

I've always prefered MF-H on Attackers. Unless something recent has come up that shows they're worse than a normal Metal Face?

And like always, it pains me to see GB145 on there. At this point, is there any valid reason to keep GB145 up? If TH170 or 230 doesn't go up, how the heck does GB145 deserve to be there? Unless another recent find has come up?

I completely agree with removing GB145, it was only used for its weight and use with rubber tips, which BD145 and TH170 do better.

As for its use with RS, when was the last time GB145RS did very well at a tournament? Also, RS isn't actually as bad as it's made out to be on BD145, unless you're using Basalt. MF-H Scythe Kronos BD145RS is actually quite a potent combination, for example, and has quite respectable stamina.

Sorry again for not having done those tests, having trouble finding time and energy right now.

And yeah, considering a lot of people complain about the recoil of our current top-tier attackers, MF-H seems like a pretty obvious addition. Pretty sure Dan uses it on his beloved Variares, and I find it makes Blitz far, far more reliable.

Hold your horses: Why isn't TH170 on the defense list..?
GB145, my god.

(Dec. 21, 2011  8:18 PM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]MF-H Phantom TH170CS is an excellent combo, but is there enough testing on it?

I hate this combo and its D variant haha. I always seem to lose via KO against Basalt 230/TH170CS with it!

Anyways ... the list has been updated to this!:

Competitive Metal Fight Beyblade Combos Wrote:ATTACK

• Metal Face Blitz Unicorno 100/CH120 RF/R2F/LRF
  
• Metal Face VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
  

DEFENSE

• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario BD145/TH170 RDF/RS/RSF/CS/MB
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Death Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario BD145/TH170 RDF/RS/RSF/CS
  

STAMINA

• Phantom Bull/Aquario 230/TH170/BD145/AD145/85 WD/SD/D/EDS
  
• Scythe Kronos 230/TH170/BD145/AD145/100 WD/SD/D/EDS
  

BALANCE

• Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Kerbecs/Aquario TH170CS