World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc.

IIRC any 145 basalt stam/def combo can beat it, as well as hell bd145. From what I've heard TH170 destabilises it as well.

try shooting basalt with some inclination aqnd its recoil will do the rest.
I just did some test and i didn't even need to pay attention at shooting,
burn was easy to ko, hell is easy to ko cause both hell and basalt have high recoil, and can be os'd too if hell is using WD
Virgo gets destabilized and starts hitting 230, that leads to constant outspin
Earth was ther tougher to KO, but definitely not tough to outspin.

When testing, i tested it with another person, and switched the combos (to prevent one shooting just stronger and messing up test results). I also tested it alone but the result is the same, give basalt some inclination and you're done.

I don't get it, it seems like Basalt 230CS is looming you guys (italians) like hell?
Why is that? Makes no sense, it isn't that tough an opponent anymore..

about basalt, take these competitive combos

ATTACK
Metal Face Lightning L-Drago 90/100/CH120/BD145 RF/LRF/R2F without the bd variant
Metal Face Vulcan Horuseus 85/90/100/CH120 RF/R2F

DEFENSE
Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario 230/BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/CS
Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Libra 230/BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/CS
Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Earth Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario 230/BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/CS

STAMINA
Virgo 230/AD145/DF145/145/85 WD/SD/D
Burn Bull 230/AD145/DF145/145/85 WD/SD/D
Earth Bull 230/AD145/DF145/145/85 WD/SD/D
Hell Bull/Kerbecs BD145 (Boost Mode) WD/SD/D

BALANCE
Metal Face Hell Kerbecs BD145CS

these against basalt 230 cs, what result do you obtain? remember to give some inclination to basalt when facing a stamina.


also, scythe is out, so yeah, that's a pretty good thing. (i tried it and obtained quite good results, wait for tomorrow evening, i'll write more because tomorrow there's a beyblade meeting)


oh and i forgot to mention that basalt can worn.
while using basalt with 230, the bey gets strong hits under basalt wheel.
now that i used it for a lot of time, the part where it get hits is WAY smoother than before, and attack types have such a harder time against a "worn" basalt wheel. that happened to other players too.

.. What? Anything at 145 can usually kill 230, why is it such a giant deal? Really, I still don't feel as if I get it. My first launch was from using Basalt 230CS so..

wait, you mean that staminas and defense combos on 145 height beat basalt on 230 from your tests? or just 145 attack customs?
would you make a video anyway? i got curious!

Depending where the stamina/defense custom is hitting Basalt 230CS, it will either lose or win. If it can hit basalt, I think it could probably win, if not I'm not so certain. MF Lightning LDrago CH120RF can handle Basalt 230CS at 120 height even. Against MF Lightning LDrago BD145RF using Basalt 230CS would be a joke and suicide.

yeah, and you got a negative matchup: lld with high tracks.

about defense and stamina: when you get the right inclination to shoot basalt it's sort of game over.
i also discovered that my cs bottoms have poor stamina compared to others, but i constantly win against stamina custom even by outspin.

imagine someone using a "competitive" vulcan 90 rf.
basalt player would just laugh.


My point is, how can a vulcan 85 rf be considered competitive while 230 is one of the most abused tracks for defense?
A competitive combo is a combo that CAN be played in tourneys and having a chance to win it, isn't it?
still, even a... err... dark giraffe 230 rs shot by a kid (a kid who can shoot "decently" i mean) would 3-0 it.

So, there are two cases:
1st: I don't get what is a competitive combo and what it needs to be competitive,
because if basalt 230 cs isn't that big problem cause it has 2 negative matchups, but vulcan 85 rf is serious business even if it is losing against almost every 230 user,
i don't mean to be rude, just sarcastic with the sentence above, but i don't seriously get it.

2nd: We should consider threats in the metagame and make a competitive list thinking about these

Ah, I see what you mean now. I think Beat should replace Vulcan and I'm in uncertain standing with low tracks. My entire block yesterday consisted of low track stamina and Hell BD145 and all are easily beaten by low tracks so obviously there is still a competititive use for them. (the hell I went through with MF Lightning LDrago BD145RF)

yes, low track attack types can face low track stamina, but once again, low track stamina users should fear any attack type, and 230 based combos (hitting 230 = losing by os)
i wouldn't play them.

I mean, would you play a combo that auto loses to something quite popular?
I'd rather be slightly disadvantaged against more things but have a disadvantage that can be handled by being better than your opponent.

I don't know, but the fact remains that it is still being used.

being used is different from competitive.
As I previously said, in my opinion, to be competitive a combo is a combo that can win a tourney, and a 85 based combo can only win if no one uses 230 there.

if 230 was like dark metla wheel, i would understand that it wouldn't be that great problem cause of no one using it, but we're talking about one of the most used pieces.

Okay, let's get this going again. I'm thinking of adding the following:

• Metal Face Gravity Perseus 90/100/CH120/D125 RF/R2F/LRF. I haven't seen any results proving that Gravity Perseus BD145RF or whatever variation deserve to be added, so I'll hold back on doing that.
  
• Vari Ares R145 RF/R2F/LRF. I'm open to more Track suggestions for this one.
  
• Basalt Bull 230/TH170/AD145/DF145/145/85 WD/SD/D/EDS. I have no idea why this isn't included yet.
  
• Scythe Kronos 230/TH170/AD145/DF145/145/100 WD/SD/D/EDS. The jury is still out on whether Scythe is superior to Basalt, but it's hard to deny that it is at least better than Virgo, Burn, and Earth (all of which should be removed).
  

(Jul. 17, 2011  2:19 AM)Yamislayer Wrote: [ -> ]oh and i forgot to mention that basalt can worn.
while using basalt with 230, the bey gets strong hits under basalt wheel.
now that i used it for a lot of time, the part where it get hits is WAY smoother than before, and attack types have such a harder time against a "worn" basalt wheel. that happened to other players too.

I've noticed this myself, however my Basalt Wheel not "smooth" as you describe. After taking such a constant beating, my Basalt Wheel has become "worn"; the surface is no longer as smooth as it was when brand new. I've been wondering if the performance (both Defense and Stamina-wise) now differs from a brand new one.

(Jul. 18, 2011  12:45 AM)Yamislayer Wrote: [ -> ]imagine someone using a "competitive" vulcan 90 rf.
basalt player would just laugh.

My point is, how can a vulcan 85 rf be considered competitive while 230 is one of the most abused tracks for defense?
A competitive combo is a combo that CAN be played in tourneys and having a chance to win it, isn't it?
still, even a... err... dark giraffe 230 rs shot by a kid (a kid who can shoot "decently" i mean) would 3-0 it.

I agree. I've actually been thinking for a while that Vulcan should be removed because in my opinion, using a Right-Spin only Attacker in our current metagame is suicide. What do you all think?

(Jul. 18, 2011  10:33 AM)Yamislayer Wrote: [ -> ]being used is different from competitive.

QFT. Dan, ali12345456 used MF Earth Bull 145WD at HPT3 and placed third, but does that mean that his combo is still "competitive"? In a sense it does, yes, but circumstances vary throughout the world, and it is very possible for a combination that was formerly "competitive" to still be successful depending on what it faces. However, the question is, when you bring that combination to the highest theoretical level in the metagame, is it still viable?

(Aug. 04, 2011  8:40 PM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, let's get this going again. I'm thinking of adding the following:

• Metal Face Gravity Perseus 90/100/CH120/D125 RF/R2F/LRF. I haven't seen any results proving that Gravity Perseus BD145RF or whatever variation deserve to be added, so I'll hold back on doing that.
  
• Vari Ares R145 RF/R2F/LRF. I'm open to more Track suggestions for this one.
  
• Basalt Bull 230/TH170/AD145/DF145/145/85 WD/SD/D/EDS. I have no idea why this isn't included yet.
  
• Scythe Kronos 230/TH170/AD145/DF145/145/100 WD/SD/D/EDS. The jury is still out on whether Scythe is superior to Basalt, but it's hard to deny that it is at least better than Virgo, Burn, and Earth (all of which should be removed).
  

(Jul. 17, 2011  2:19 AM)Yamislayer Wrote: [ -> ]oh and i forgot to mention that basalt can worn.
while using basalt with 230, the bey gets strong hits under basalt wheel.
now that i used it for a lot of time, the part where it get hits is WAY smoother than before, and attack types have such a harder time against a "worn" basalt wheel. that happened to other players too.

I've noticed this myself, however my Basalt Wheel not "smooth" as you describe. After taking such a constant beating, my Basalt Wheel has become "worn"; the surface is no longer as smooth as it was when brand new. I've been wondering if the performance (both Defense and Stamina-wise) now differs from a brand new one.

(Jul. 18, 2011  12:45 AM)Yamislayer Wrote: [ -> ]imagine someone using a "competitive" vulcan 90 rf.
basalt player would just laugh.

My point is, how can a vulcan 85 rf be considered competitive while 230 is one of the most abused tracks for defense?
A competitive combo is a combo that CAN be played in tourneys and having a chance to win it, isn't it?
still, even a... err... dark giraffe 230 rs shot by a kid (a kid who can shoot "decently" i mean) would 3-0 it.

I agree. I've actually been thinking for a while that Vulcan should be removed because in my opinion, using a Right-Spin only Attacker in our current metagame is suicide. What do you all think?

(Jul. 18, 2011  10:33 AM)Yamislayer Wrote: [ -> ]being used is different from competitive.

QFT. Dan, ali12345456 used MF Earth Bull 145WD at HPT3 and placed third, but does that mean that his combo is still "competitive"? In a sense it does, yes, but circumstances vary throughout the world, and it is very possible for a combination that was formerly "competitive" to still be successful depending on what it faces. However, the question is, when you bring that combination to the highest theoretical level in the metagame, is it still viable?

Well,i think that something is missed in that list.

• In Gravity Perseus list : 100,D125 are Tier 2 in my opinion. 90,CH120 and BD145 are Tier 1.
  
• In Basalt Bull list: AD145 and DF145 are Tier 2. In the Bottom List must be added CS; i don't know why you've excluded CS!
  

In my opinion must be added:

• MF2 Fang Leone C145\R145 RF
  
• MF2\MF LDrago Destroy CH120 RF
  

When the combination is still viable in tournaments? When it wins without lucky factors for more than 1 torunament in the world!

Scythe should have BD145 along with it, apparently it is ridiculously good.
Yeah I know he used it, lol.
What about Beat? I'm for Vulcan being kicked, yeah.
You think Vari is already tier worthy? How's it do against Basslt Bd145MB?
Once I get Vari (lol) I'll test out some tracks. I'm still thinking Earth is good for stamina, but no longer for defense.. What do you think?
Oh what do we do about weak launching? It overpowers attackers badly, we should definitely take weak launch results into consideration though.. I will find a counter to it for attacks sake (and mine at tourneys) soon.

(Aug. 04, 2011  8:59 PM)Galaxy Wrote: [ -> ]

• In Basalt Bull list: AD145 and DF145 are Tier 2. In the Bottom List must be added CS; i don't know why you've excluded CS!
  

In my opinion must be added:

• MF2 Fang Leone C145\R145 RF
  

If you look at the "DEFENSE" section we have: Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario 230/BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/CS ... so I wasn't sure whether or not I should add CS to the STAMINA custom(s) that I listed.

Is Fang really that good? Is it really a safer choice than Lightning, Gravity, or Vari Ares?

Dan Wrote:Scythe should have BD145 along with it, apparently it is ridiculously good.

What about Beat? I'm for Vulcan being kicked, yeah.
You think Vari is already tier worthy? How's it do against Basslt Bd145MB?
Once I get Vari (lol) I'll test out some tracks. I'm still thinking Earth is good for stamina, but no longer for defense.. What do you think?

Yeah, it might be worth adding as well.
Beat has the same problem as Vulcan.
I think so. In my testing, it had somewhere between a 40-55% win percentage against it/the CS variant.
Is it worth keeping Earth for Stamina when Basalt and Scythe are superior?

(Aug. 04, 2011  9:05 PM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]

(Aug. 04, 2011  8:59 PM)Galaxy Wrote: [ -> ]

• In Basalt Bull list: AD145 and DF145 are Tier 2. In the Bottom List must be added CS; i don't know why you've excluded CS!
  

In my opinion must be added:

• MF2 Fang Leone C145\R145 RF
  

If you look at the "DEFENSE" section we have: Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario 230/BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/CS ... so I wasn't sure whether or not I should add CS to the STAMINA custom(s) that I listed.

Is Fang really that good? Is it really a safer choice than Lightning, Gravity, or Vari Ares?

Dan Wrote:Scythe should have BD145 along with it, apparently it is ridiculously good.

What about Beat? I'm for Vulcan being kicked, yeah.
You think Vari is already tier worthy? How's it do against Basslt Bd145MB?
Once I get Vari (lol) I'll test out some tracks. I'm still thinking Earth is good for stamina, but no longer for defense.. What do you think?

Yeah, it might be worth adding as well.
Beat has the same problem as Vulcan.
I think so. In my testing, it had somewhere between a 40-55% win percentage against it/the CS variant.
Is it worth keeping Earth for Stamina when Basalt and Scythe are superior?

Uhm,didn't seen it,sorry. I think that the best choice for Basalt is 230 CS,others are second choice,and Basalt in stamina on 230 now sucks due to Schyte,that's surely a better choice for Stamina Customizations. Also, with a good CS you can have both good defense and stamina. Here in Italy,Stamina are very rare customizations in tournaments,so even if you play always with Basalt 230 CS you'll win against a lot of Attack combos if the player is not VERY good.

Then,Fang is an excellent MW for Attack,but you must be an excellent player.
If you're a good Attacker,you'll win,if you're a bad Attacker,you'll lose.
Here in Italy Fang is one of the best choice for attack. And yes, here in Italy Fang is better tha Lightning (and Gravity in some matches); i don't own Vari yet,so i can't talk about it!

Erase Earth. It's not Tier 1 anymore.

(Aug. 04, 2011  9:19 PM)Galaxy Wrote: [ -> ]Also, with a good CS you can have both good defense and stamina. Here in Italy,Stamina are very rare customizations in tournaments,so even if you play always with Basalt 230 CS you'll win against a lot of Attack combos if the player is not VERY good.

That is ridiculous. I don't want to seem like a jerk but even Lightning LDrago on CH120/145 can handle Basalt 230CS, I'm concerned, what's with this giant hump you are having with all the attackers we have currently Basalt 230CS shouldn't be such a problem especially for an attack oriented society..

CS for stamina? No way it's equal to WD or EDS. From my testing back in November a lot of you were even concerned it had enough stamina for the soon released MF. What I mean is I don't think its the best for pure stamina, but hybrid for sure lol. Did I misunderstand? Seems as if you (Kei) want CS as a stamina tip lol.
Glad to see this is alive again.

(Aug. 04, 2011  9:45 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]

(Aug. 04, 2011  9:19 PM)Galaxy Wrote: [ -> ]Also, with a good CS you can have both good defense and stamina. Here in Italy,Stamina are very rare customizations in tournaments,so even if you play always with Basalt 230 CS you'll win against a lot of Attack combos if the player is not VERY good.

That is ridiculous. I don't want to seem like a jerk but even Lightning LDrago on CH120/145 can handle Basalt 230CS, I'm concerned, what's with this giant hump you are having with all the attackers we have currently Basalt 230CS shouldn't be such a problem especially for an attack oriented society..

CS for stamina? No way it's equal to WD or EDS. From my testing back in November a lot of you were even concerned it had enough stamina for the soon released MF. What I mean is I don't think its the best for pure stamina, but hybrid for sure lol. Did I misunderstand? Seems as if you (Kei) want CS as a stamina tip lol.
Glad to see this is alive again.

Uhm.. xD
In fact, LLDrago CH\BD145 RF is good against Basalt 230 CS,but..
LLDrago CH120\145 RF < LDrago Destroy CH120\145 RF ,
LLDrago BD145 RF <= Gravity Perseus BD145 RF ,
So why in a tournament i should choose a Bey that sucks against that two and that my opponents could use thinking that i'm going to use Basalt 230 CS?
I'm talking for the situation here in Italy,of course!

By the way, i think you've misunderstand ^^' !
Never said that CS is a Stamina Bottom,but a CS has more Stamina than RF,and because here in Italy you can use or an Attack Customization or Basalt 230 CS,if you're not a good Attacker,Basalt 230 CS will win for sure due to CS > RF in Stamina!
I was trying to say this,sorry if i explained bad my idea about CS ^^' !


If i'll play: Basalt 230 WD against xxx xxx RF,the attack combo will win pratically...ALWAYS because WD has no grip on the stadiums:
if you'll do a strong shoot with your attack customization,you'll win for sure!

(Aug. 04, 2011  9:19 PM)Galaxy Wrote: [ -> ]Uhm,didn't seen it,sorry. I think that the best choice for Basalt is 230 CS,others are second choice,and Basalt in stamina on 230 now sucks due to Schyte,that's surely a better choice for Stamina Customizations.

I just haven't been sure what to call Basalt 230CS; a Stamina type or a Defense type? When 230 first came out and I was using MF-L Earth Bull 230CS, I simply called it a "powerful Stamina/Defense hybrid", but never truly classified it as anything. Labeling it as "Balance" didn't seem right because it did not have any real Attack properties. I suppose it really is just a Stamina type with Defensive qualities ... maybe we should remove 230 from the list of DEFENSE Tracks?

Do you have test results to back up your claim that "Basalt in stamina on 230 now sucks due to Scythe"? Could you elaborate on what you mean a little bit? I'd be more inclined to say that "Basalt in stamina on 230 now sucks due to TH170"!

(Aug. 04, 2011  9:19 PM)Galaxy Wrote: [ -> ]Also, with a good CS you can have both good defense and stamina. Here in Italy,Stamina are very rare customizations in tournaments,so even if you play always with Basalt 230 CS you'll win against a lot of Attack combos if the player is not VERY good.

Yes, of course. It isn't wise to use pure Stamina customizations when you can choose something with such a balance of attributes like Basalt 230CS (though I would say that Basalt TH170CS would be a better choice now). However, as Dan mentioned, we should take into consideration the effects of weak shooting with D/SD/WD-based Stamina customs...

(Aug. 04, 2011  9:45 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]CS for stamina? No way it's equal to WD or EDS. From my testing back in November a lot of you were even concerned it had enough stamina for the soon released MF. What I mean is I don't think its the best for pure stamina, but hybrid for sure lol. Did I misunderstand? Seems as if you (Kei) want CS as a stamina tip lol.
Glad to see this is alive again.

Oh, there's no question that it isn't equal to WD or EDS in terms of pure Stamina. But it's its versatility that makes it such a powerful Bottom.


Galaxy mentioned it earlier, but I'd like to here some opinions on L Drago Destroy. How does it compare to Lightning L Drago?

I'm not trying to get into opinions about attack combinations.
You should not be experiencing these diffi uprise with Basalt 230CS: it is very easy to KO with what we have available to us. Could you explain here or PM specifically why Basalt 230CS is causing you grief? I never heard why.

I can't speak for LDD unfortunately.
I would consider Basalt 230CS as a defensive beyblade, I still sort of think of CS as defense and only 230 as a hybrid. If CS could defeat WD it would be a different story, but it's sole purpose is for defense, okay, it happens that you can destabilize certain customizations of greater stamina. I don't think that really qualifies CS specifically to hybrid? I could sound as if I should be checked into sickkids, lol.

Edit x2: oh yeah, I'm talking about a generally docile CS considering the perfomance differs and on that note I guess it could be hybrid because of all the variations between manufacturing (or wearing) of them.
lolhasbro

(Aug. 05, 2011  1:39 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]

(Aug. 04, 2011  9:19 PM)Galaxy Wrote: [ -> ]Uhm,didn't seen it,sorry. I think that the best choice for Basalt is 230 CS,others are second choice,and Basalt in stamina on 230 now sucks due to Schyte,that's surely a better choice for Stamina Customizations.

I just haven't been sure what to call Basalt 230CS; a Stamina type or a Defense type? When 230 first came out and I was using MF-L Earth Bull 230CS, I simply called it a "powerful Stamina/Defense hybrid", but never truly classified it as anything. Labeling it as "Balance" didn't seem right because it did not have any real Attack properties. I suppose it really is just a Stamina type with Defensive qualities ... maybe we should remove 230 from the list of DEFENSE Tracks?

Do you have test results to back up your claim that "Basalt in stamina on 230 now sucks due to Scythe"? Could you elaborate on what you mean a little bit? I'd be more inclined to say that "Basalt in stamina on 230 now sucks due to TH170"!

(Aug. 04, 2011  9:19 PM)Galaxy Wrote: [ -> ]Also, with a good CS you can have both good defense and stamina. Here in Italy,Stamina are very rare customizations in tournaments,so even if you play always with Basalt 230 CS you'll win against a lot of Attack combos if the player is not VERY good.

Yes, of course. It isn't wise to use pure Stamina customizations when you can choose something with such a balance of attributes like Basalt 230CS (though I would say that Basalt TH170CS would be a better choice now). However, as Dan mentioned, we should take into consideration the effects of weak shooting with D/SD/WD-based Stamina customs...

(Aug. 04, 2011  9:45 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]CS for stamina? No way it's equal to WD or EDS. From my testing back in November a lot of you were even concerned it had enough stamina for the soon released MF. What I mean is I don't think its the best for pure stamina, but hybrid for sure lol. Did I misunderstand? Seems as if you (Kei) want CS as a stamina tip lol.
Glad to see this is alive again.

Oh, there's no question that it isn't equal to WD or EDS in terms of pure Stamina. But it's its versatility that makes it such a powerful Bottom.


Galaxy mentioned it earlier, but I'd like to here some opinions on L Drago Destroy. How does it compare to Lightning L Drago?

To answer you:

1- Uhm,i think in this way:

• Basalt = MW for Defense,solo spin is quite useless with Basalt!
  
• 230 = Defense Track. It doesn't help in any way endurance!
  
• CS = it means Coat Sharp (as all of us know). The Sharp tip gives endurance,the Coat gives defence. Launching the Bey, the plastic sharp tip will vanish. So the evident endurance that CS can give at the combo have no long life. A used CS gives anyway both Defense and Stamina propreties at the combo.
  

At this point i'm quite sure that i'd call Basalt 230 CS a Defence Combo (Stamina is a propriety that the combo has,it's not a quality that you use to built that combo!I think that all WBO know that a CS>RF and CS<EDS for example,but it doesn't do the Combo a Stamina type!).


Then,i've got Schyte 2 days first of my vacation,so i did only Solo Spin Tests.
By these,Schyte is very good in Stamina,and i think that all of use know that Basalt isn't very good in Solo Spin. Also,due to new weight of 4D's System,and Schyte's round shape,it is better than Burn and Earth in my opinion,even in Smash.
So i suppose that if i make: Basalt 230 CS vs Schyte 90 xx,Schyte wins.
Basalt wins because it touch the other MWs,and at the same time if you'll do Basalt 230 CS vs LLDrago 90 RF,LLDrago 90 RF automatically is out of the match.
For the "same" reason if i play a Top Stamina with the weight of a 4D's System i'd not have an auto loss,but i'd win.
And it's ok also the choice of Basalt TH170 CS,you'll win for sure against basalt 230 CS.

Also,i've read the article on Waek Shoot...
I don't know why it's on BeyWiki sincerly; nothing against Dan,tests proved him right,but:

1. Here in Italy already did this kind of launch;
   
2. After we've seen its effects no one of us use it anymore.
   

I say this because,ok in tests you can win 200 matches on 200,but in a tournaments why my opponents should be so dull to let me win?
I explain me better: in MFBs' the Left Spin is only for: LLDrago,LDrago Destroy and Gravity Perseus ---> only 3 Beys (MLD isn't competitive,so i put out it from the category) on more of 100, let me think that the Weak Shoot isn't a good strategy,because my opponent has more than 100 Beys to chose!
Then, LLDrago and LDrago Destroy MUST go in Left,but are only two...If my opponent will use a Gravity Perseus,at the first battle (if i'm lucky and my opponent starts in left) with a Weak Shoot i'll win..On the other battles he knows my trick,and turn Gravity Perseus in right. 3-1 for my opponents.
Is the Weak Shoot a good strategy? No,in my opinion.

Then,you want to know something about LDD?
Try: LLD CH145 RF vs Basalt 230/TH170 CS. LLDrago will win.
Then try LDD CH145 RF vs Basalt 230/TH170 CS. LDD will win!

Wich is the difference? Try both that LDrago Combos vs Fang Leone C145 RF.
LLD will lose,LDD will win!
LDD is competitive between 4D's Systems,LLD not anymore!

IKMV stumbled on that combination too when Fang was released!
I wouldn't say MLD isn't competitive. (we'll see, huh?)
Response to weak launch: Its because you use right spin attackers since they are still viable there. Obviously weak launching would result in an OS for the user..

Its a shame you didn't respond to my question of how a completely attack oriented people have such trouble with Basalt 230CS? I think I've asked it twice, I no longer expect a response haha.

(Aug. 08, 2011  12:56 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]IKMV stumbled on that combination too when Fang was released!
I wouldn't say MLD isn't competitive. (we'll see, huh?)
Response to weak launch: Its because you use right spin attackers since they are still viable there. Obviously weak launching would result in an OS for the user..

Its a shame you didn't respond to my question of how a completely attack oriented people have such trouble with Basalt 230CS? I think I've asked it twice, I no longer expect a response haha.

Sorry Dan,didn't read it!
That combo is a problem in two case:

1- If a n00b, that have never played before, pays 5$ for the tournament, and starts to play Basalt 230 CS with a strong launch (maybe he goes also in a gym xD) for sure if there are some good attackers he will not arrive 1st and maybe nor 2nd,but he could arrive 3rd because this combo doesn't require great skills,only a strong launcher.
And it's quite bad for others that maybe have more skills respect to the n00b,but are unlucky.

2- Because if you're a good defender inclining the Basalt thanks to its great weight you can break the Sliding Shoot and you'll automatically win!

I think it's a bit soon to add Vari. The high risk might not be worth the reward, especially since Lightning still does such a great job, and Gravity also spins in both directions.