Why F230 CF/GCF breaks the game

Poll: What should be done about F230?

Ban it altogether
15.73%
14
Ban it to some extent
35.96%
32
Leave it alone
48.31%
43
Total: 100% 89 vote(s)
Im kinda confused, wouldn't a lower track Stamina combo be able to defeat it, at least in BB-10?
(Oct. 30, 2013  1:38 AM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: TO everyone posting, please have tests or tournament experience behind your statements. All my statements are based on tests and tournament results. It just seems like some of you have wishy washy opinions.
Just a reminder as some people are making bad posts.

(Oct. 31, 2013  11:33 PM)UGottaCetus Wrote: Im kinda confused, wouldn't a lower track Stamina combo be able to defeat it, at least in BB-10?
I'll post some tests on that later.
(Oct. 31, 2013  3:20 PM)Time Wrote: So I spent like three hours yesterday trying to come up with a counter that could os dragoooon in bb-10 and these were the three best things I could come up with. Each one seems ludicrous on first reading, but there was a lot of thought that went into each one. I focused on things at a height lower than the metal wheel to avoid as much contact as possible. Each of these were never decisive winners, but they were also rarely decisive losers, if someone wants to do some formal testing that would be great.
Flash (stamina mode) uranus (used to minimalize protrusion) 85 EWD- height minimalization to a point just above gcf. One of the problems with dragoon f230 is it is so close to its opponent at the end of the battle, thanks to flash'a Attack power (even in stamina mode) dragoon is hit away and with a little luck stops spinning before it is able to make contact with flash again.

Phantom (attack mode) Cancer f:d: spins in the middle until late in the match and then again with a little bit of luck tornado stalls around dragooon until it topples and stops spinning

Death (defense mode) 90 CS: similar to the flash combo but with a little lower precession and a heck of a lot more defense. This one only one maybe 5 times out of like 35 rounds

Out of the three I far prefer the flash combo, but let's see what everyone else comes up with or if they even have the same success I did

Did no one see this?
About the combo with Final Drive, I have used it before and I must say it has a unique but pretty effective movement. It has a good enough stall at the end from my experience to even out spin Duo W145WD from my testing. I actually think some official tests would be nice. I don't have an F230 so unfortuantely I can't.

Still though, shouldn't we focus more on Zero G right now?
(Oct. 27, 2013  8:02 PM)OwnageDerp Wrote: So I got in tests on Gryph ^2 GB145RF (GG) vs Killerken Dragooon F230CF (KD)
Parts Conditioning
Launch
Detailed test results
Short results

Honestly you need the perfect angle and launch, so someone must test this potential F230CF counter, everyone has different launching styles. Also, almost all of the rounds were very close wins. I thought that was worth noting.

Legend

Has anyone seen this even though it got killed by spin steal?
(Oct. 31, 2013  6:35 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Oct. 31, 2013  2:34 AM)theblackdragon Wrote: Yes, that is definitely what should happen. Like Pepsi said, if you can actually walk into an event and already know that you're taking home the gold, it needs to go.

That's never the case. There's no way you can ever go into a tournament "knowing" that you're going to take home the Gold Face. That's just arrogance; Dragooon F230 CF/GCF isn't unbeatable, so nobody should be treating it that way. Yes, perhaps it is possible to go on a winning streak with it–you could with any powerful combo–but that isn't necessarily a reflection of something that is broken or someone that is insanely skilled (though it could be). It could also be an indication of the skill/knowledge level of the Bladers the F230 user plays against, or simply, it could be an indication that the user was lucky in a few battles that they could/should have lost.

I'll try to do some tests myself soon. You've proven already based on my suggestions/your tests that right-spin F230 CF/GCF isn't as overpowered as people initially were suggesting, so there's no reason why left-spin F230 CF/GCF would be. Left-spin TB might not work, but there are other options.

Yah, er... I was kind of completely wrong about Genbull F230, LOL. XD

However, I honestly seriously doubt that someone could get lucky enough to sweep a tournament with it 3 times in a row, against multiple bladers in the top 100 worldwide. What other options are there, exactly?

Of course, you're right... nothing is ever unbeatable. Never. It's just a question of whether or not the counter people develop is competitive against the rest of the metagame. The only things you really have a mild chance with against F230 in Zero-G is left-spin sway attack, and left-spin TB, both of which are easily countered by banking or weak launching (not to mention that Dragooon TB is horrendous against almost the entire meta).

Also, If you're going to do sway attack testing, do you think you might be able to do so with 2 people? That would be great just because it represents a tournament scene better. IIRC Dragooon F230 does far better when launched at the same time as its opponent. Smile I'm actually quite excited for results... if there is a competitive way to beat this thing It'll be awesome to find out what it is.
I've got it
Genbull dragooon sa165 Mb

Based on what
I saw duo sa165 mb do to duo f230 gcf

Sa165 mb 17 wins (16 os, 1 ko)
F230 gcf 3 wins (3 ko)

Also, something people might want to look into as a counter for all f230 is variares or gravity since as long as your opponent doesn't pull the same thing, spin steal is a non-factor and gravity with the stamina clear wheel is a force to be reckoned with
I remember Kei using Gravity Perseus F230GCF/CF before, once in a tourney. IIRC he lost with it, probably because of how light Gravity is compared to Genbull Genbull or Genbull Dragooon.

Variates just sucks, when it pairs up with F230, from my testing.
(Nov. 01, 2013  2:08 AM)theblackdragon Wrote: However, I honestly seriously doubt that someone could get lucky enough to sweep a tournament with it 3 times in a row, against multiple bladers in the top 100 worldwide. What other options are there, exactly?

This kind of thing takes time. It takes time for other players to come up with a solid and reliable counter. Parts availability is also a factor. Basing it off someone sweeping '3 localized tournaments' is premature.

I will also bring up the 2 parts that was banned or ban-worthy in the past, and the reasons for it.

Libra. Back when it was released, it was truly leaps and bounds ahead of the meta. It was extremely overpowered. No parts released then had to ability to counter it. We were limited to a very few parts. This was a no-brainer. Even WBBA Japan realized this, and have eventually put weight limitations on combos. WBO didn't have too many official tournaments back then to confirm its abuse in the winning combos, but rest assured, it was either Libra or lose. Soon after, RF, Lightning LDrago was released, and had the ability to counter it quite reliably, yet the ban was still in play for quite some time to let the meta even itself out.

Basalt. Few months after its release, it started popping out everywhere. After the discovery of the wonderful pairing of Basalt and CS, it became a monster. It was either Basalt BD145 CS or Basalt 230 CS everywhere. And when I say everywhere, it was literally all over the world. Europe, Australia, Asia, North America. 8 people go into a tournament, 6 or 7 used Basalt. The sheer number of Basalt was overwhelming. The meta became stagnant, players became bored. I suppose one of WBO's consideration of its ban was the abuse of Basalt, which leads to the stagnant metagame. As WBO was concluding the ban decision, 4D came about. Sycthe and the relatively new VariAres became the counters. Soon after, the talk of banning Basalt became part of history.

Now if you take F230 CF/GCF, and stack it up against Libra & Basalt, is it a ban-worthy comparison at this stage of time? I'm certain F230 CF/GCF is an insanely good combination, but if anything, it's still in its infancy in terms of tournament wins and usage. Just let the meta plays itself out first.
LMAO you misunderstand, variares and gravity on sa165 mb
(Nov. 01, 2013  4:30 AM)Uwik Wrote:
(Nov. 01, 2013  2:08 AM)theblackdragon Wrote: However, I honestly seriously doubt that someone could get lucky enough to sweep a tournament with it 3 times in a row, against multiple bladers in the top 100 worldwide. What other options are there, exactly?

This kind of thing takes time. It takes time for other players to come up with a solid and reliable counter. Parts availability is also a factor. Basing it off someone sweeping '3 localized tournaments' is premature.

I will also bring up the 2 parts that was banned or ban-worthy in the past, and the reasons for it.

Libra. Back when it was released, it was truly leaps and bounds ahead of the meta. It was extremely overpowered. No parts released then had to ability to counter it. We were limited to a very few parts. This was a no-brainer. Even WBBA Japan realized this, and have eventually put weight limitations on combos. WBO didn't have too many official tournaments back then to confirm its abuse in the winning combos, but rest assured, it was either Libra or lose. Soon after, RF, Lightning LDrago was released, and had the ability to counter it quite reliably, yet the ban was still in play for quite some time to let the meta even itself out.

Basalt. Few months after its release, it started popping out everywhere. After the discovery of the wonderful pairing of Basalt and CS, it became a monster. It was either Basalt BD145 CS or Basalt 230 CS everywhere. And when I say everywhere, it was literally all over the world. Europe, Australia, Asia, North America. 8 people go into a tournament, 6 or 7 used Basalt. The sheer number of Basalt was overwhelming. The meta became stagnant, players became bored. I suppose one of WBO's consideration of its ban was the abuse of Basalt, which leads to the stagnant metagame. As WBO was concluding the ban decision, 4D came about. Sycthe and the relatively new VariAres became the counters. Soon after, the talk of banning Basalt became part of history.

Now if you take F230 CF/GCF, and stack it up against Libra & Basalt, is it a ban-worthy comparison at this stage of time? I'm certain F230 CF/GCF is an insanely good combination, but if anything, it's still in its infancy in terms of tournament wins and usage. Just let the meta plays itself out first.

Well, that's the problem... the custom is not in its "infancy" here. NC has had 2 or 3 times the number of Zero-G tournaments that most areas have, and the combo has been played (and abused) here for nearly 6 months now, swept several tournaments in a row, and no one has been able to come up with something that can counter it effectively, let alone something that can also perform well against the rest of the meta. The metagame here has already become "stagnant."

Oh, BTW I forgot one tournament. It's actually swept 4 in a row (the first of which was me as Crush of the G-Force, using it in 7/8 of my matches).

I don't see a problem with comparing this to Basalt or Libra... regardless of what form the customs dominated in, they were overpowered and abused. If something is overpowered and abused, then it wrecks the metagame, and, like you said, tournaments become stagnant and boring.

But your absolutely right,

theblackdragon Wrote:Well, if you're talking about tournament results, then we've got plenty from NC... the only problem is, it seems to be regional. :\ Not many people seem to use Dragooon F230 much...

It hasn't played out in other areas yet, which is the problem. I can guarantee you that, over the course of the next few months, if someone is willing to abuse this combo then the situation will become more or less the same in other places as well.

From what I've seen of this custom in testing and competition, in my honest opinion it's far too overpowered. Take it from Dark (and me), who's actually experienced Dragooon F230 abused at an event.
Me and my friend did a battle between MSF-M Genbull Dragooon F230CF V.S. Balro Balro D125R2F. It was Best of 5. Final score was 3-1. Bakro won with all KOs. Genull F230 win with 1 OS.
(Nov. 01, 2013  8:59 PM)RagerBlade Wrote: Me and my friend did a battle between MSF-M Genbull Dragooon F230CF V.S. Balro Balro D125R2F. It was Best of 5. Final score was 3-1. Bakro won with all KOs. Genull F230 win with 1 OS.

But you know for it to be an official test it must be at least rounds.
(Nov. 01, 2013  11:13 PM)theblackdragon Wrote: In Zero-G?
In BB-10.

Dark yes I know, I was just informing. I will do tests soon when I see my friend again.
(Nov. 01, 2013  1:12 AM)Time Wrote:
(Oct. 31, 2013  3:20 PM)Time Wrote: So I spent like three hours yesterday trying to come up with a counter that could os dragoooon in bb-10 and these were the three best things I could come up with. Each one seems ludicrous on first reading, but there was a lot of thought that went into each one. I focused on things at a height lower than the metal wheel to avoid as much contact as possible. Each of these were never decisive winners, but they were also rarely decisive losers, if someone wants to do some formal testing that would be great.

Flash (stamina mode) uranus (used to minimalize protrusion) 85 EWD- height minimalization to a point just above gcf. One of the problems with dragoon f230 is it is so close to its opponent at the end of the battle, thanks to flash'a Attack power (even in stamina mode) dragoon is hit away and with a little luck stops spinning before it is able to make contact with flash again.

Phantom (attack mode) Cancer f:d: spins in the middle until late in the match and then again with a little bit of luck tornado stalls around dragooon until it topples and stops spinning

Death (defense mode) 90 CS: similar to the flash combo but with a little lower precession and a heck of a lot more defense. This one only one maybe 5 times out of like 35 rounds

Out of the three I far prefer the flash combo, but let's see what everyone else comes up with or if they even have the same success I did

Did no one see this?

Again?
(Nov. 02, 2013  2:26 AM)Time Wrote:
(Nov. 01, 2013  1:12 AM)Time Wrote:
(Oct. 31, 2013  3:20 PM)Time Wrote: So I spent like three hours yesterday trying to come up with a counter that could os dragoooon in bb-10 and these were the three best things I could come up with. Each one seems ludicrous on first reading, but there was a lot of thought that went into each one. I focused on things at a height lower than the metal wheel to avoid as much contact as possible. Each of these were never decisive winners, but they were also rarely decisive losers, if someone wants to do some formal testing that would be great.

Flash (stamina mode) uranus (used to minimalize protrusion) 85 EWD- height minimalization to a point just above gcf. One of the problems with dragoon f230 is it is so close to its opponent at the end of the battle, thanks to flash'a Attack power (even in stamina mode) dragoon is hit away and with a little luck stops spinning before it is able to make contact with flash again.

Phantom (attack mode) Cancer f:d: spins in the middle until late in the match and then again with a little bit of luck tornado stalls around dragooon until it topples and stops spinning

Death (defense mode) 90 CS: similar to the flash combo but with a little lower precession and a heck of a lot more defense. This one only one maybe 5 times out of like 35 rounds

Out of the three I far prefer the flash combo, but let's see what everyone else comes up with or if they even have the same success I did

Did no one see this?

Again?

I saw this. Just didn't have a chance to respond. Those combos are very situational. Like if they go against anything else they will probably lose.
Answer me this... what exactly can any of those combos beat? I mean besides Dragooon F230 on occasion?

We need a counter that doesn't flunk against everything else. That's honestly like using Earth 85WD to counter Dragooon SA165RDF.
Time I did anyway as those are interesting the problem here is that those combo's would get destroyed by anything else on the tier list and with Dragooon being spammed everywhere and MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF there useles against pretty much anything thats not F230CF/GCF XD basically there Niche-Combo's and wow F: D beating F230 XD

EDIT: Beaten by Da Mouse and Draco (that your new nickname TBD XD) I took to long to type all this XD
I have done tests using Genbull Dragoon F230GCF and Reviser Dragoon F230GCF in BB-10, and I am also finding some troubling dominations there, too.

F230 CF/GCF has also been abused in Toronto over the past several months, if you guys haven't noticed. It's not an isolated phenomenon.

Anyways, I'll try to do those Zero-G/Sway Attack tests with two people this weekend at A YEAR: The Month of Frost in Toronto.
^But has Dragooon F230GCF been overused? I mean, Duo/Genbull F230 isn't totally overpowered, and even an occasional Dragooon F230 won't hurt the meta as long as they don't come in droves.

When's the last time you saw it lose, exactly? I mean, if something is really beating it badly could you tell us what it is? BTW I just got some tests done vs. Sway attack:

theblackdragon Wrote:Genbull Dragooon F230CF vs. MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon SA165GCF
Genbull Dragooon launched first on all launches. Launched at 50-60%. Wyvang Dragooon launched at 90-100%.
Genbull Dragooon: wins, 17/25 (1 KO, 5 SKO, 11 OS)
Wyvang Dragooon: wins, 8/25 (7 SKO, 1 OS)
Genbull Dragooon F230CF win rate: 68%

These tests were done with

1. No metal face whatsoever for Dragooon F230
2. CF used rather than GCF, which usually does better against sway attackers
3. Dragooon F230 launched first on all launches (provides an overwhelming advantage to the attacker in Zero-G)

So, I basically put Dragooon F230 at an enourmous disadvantage, and it still won over twice as often as Dragooon SA165GCF. So yah... I would say that left-spin sway attack is honestly ineffective against Dragooon F230, and these results would probably have been far higher if said disadvantages hadn't been factored. GF does even worse, since it's seriously prone to self-KO.

I sent this to Dark, so I thought I'd just post it here. He said he's getting the same turnout, with Dragooon F230 apparently having "no problem." It takes a few minutes to get the hang of launching at the right speed.
(Nov. 02, 2013  2:41 AM)Kei Wrote: F230 CF/GCF has also been abused in Toronto over the past several months, if you guys haven't noticed. It's not an isolated phenomenon.

Anyways, I'll try to do those Zero-G/Sway Attack tests with two people this weekend at A YEAR: The Month of Frost in Toronto.

I'd gladly help you out Smile

Also, I tested out both Variares and Gravity Perseus SA165MB, against both left and right spin F230, and F230 won every single time. Both Variares and Gravity Perseus are just too light to try to control F230.
MSF-M Genbull Dragooon F230CF V.S. MSF-L Girago Begarodios GB145CF
MSF-M Genbull Dragooon F230CF 3 Wins (3 OS 0 KO)
MSF-L Girago Begairodos GB145CF 17 Wins (4 OS 13 KO)
1 Tie Redone (Both Beys KOed)
Standard Format
Each Bey Launched first 10 times
First of all, I kind of doubt those results... I've tried the same method before, and nothing came of it. Unhappy

Second, is your F230 orange? Girago Begirados GB145CF OSing Dragooon F230CF is unheard of, unless your F230 is red/brown.

Third, what exactly does Girago Begirados GB145CF do well against besides, apparently, Dragooon F230CF?

The idea here is not to build something that can beat Dragooon F230... the idea is to build something that beats Dragooon F230 and can be called competitive against at least some of the rest of the metagame.

Third, we're testing Dragooon F230 against Attack in Zero-G, not BB-10. No one is going to ban Dragooon F230 in BB-10 format play anytime soon, so testing in BB-10 isn't really changing anything. Tongue_out