Why F230 CF/GCF breaks the game

Poll: What should be done about F230?

Ban it altogether
15.73%
14
Ban it to some extent
35.96%
32
Leave it alone
48.31%
43
Total: 100% 89 vote(s)
Sorry for the double post guys, but you should probably see this. Kei and I were discussing F230 the other day, and he was saying that Genbull Genbull F230 will lose to same-spin stamina from his testing and tournament experience. I did some testing just to see if it was only Dragooon F230 that could take out stamina types of the same spin direction, and the results were actually very interesting:

Kei Wrote:
theblackdragon Wrote:
theblackdragon Wrote:
Kei Wrote:
theblackdragon Wrote:
Kei Wrote:
theblackdragon Wrote:Exactly how is F230 a high-risk part to use? I have personally only seen it self-KO once or twice ever, due to a faulty launch.

It truly does win against everything here if the user has any idea how to launch it. Like, everything. What do you guys use to beat it in Toronto?

Because it relies a lot on your opponents spin direction. It might not seem that way to you though, since apparently you often see it defeat even same spin direction Stamina combos.

I watched it take down 4 Dragooon stamina types 3-0 yesterday, and that's not including the rest from various other tournaments. :\

You know if you bank it you can actually hit 100% against TB in either spin direction pretty darn easily using Genbull Dragooon F230CF. I don't know exactly why it's acting different, but it totally trashes every Dragooon combo we have so far.

Genbull Dragooon F230CF vs. Genbull Dragooon SA165TB
Dragooon SA165TB launched first at 100% power on all launches. Dragooon F230 banked.
Dragooon F230: wins, 9/10 (All OS)
Dragooon SA165: wins, 1/10 (1 self-KO)
Genbull Dragooon F230CF win rate: 90%

Er... Confused It's gone undefeated for the last 3 tournaments in a row, and IIRC it's only ever lost once (due to the user's horrible launch). As long as you know how to launch it (which is actually pretty simple once you get down to it), you can pretty much wreck anything. Just ask Dark, LOL. XD

Can you test MSF-M Genbull Genbull F230GCF (I prefer MSF-M and GCF) against MF-M Duo Cygnus SA165TB and MSF-M Genbull Dragooon F230GCF against MSF Killerken Dragooon BGrin? Before posting earlier I did some quick tests with those just to make sure I wasn't imagining the things I've seen at Toronto tournaments and found that F230 lost every time. BWD and EWD did have various problems, but they are still capable of winning depending on how things go, and also on the stadium you're playing in (I tested in the Attack Stadium).

For some reason, I don't trust Synchrom Stamina customs using SA165, although I can tell you that I lost 3-0 against Killerken Genbull SA165TB (or something similar) at BEYBLADE REVOLUTION. I was using MSF Genbull Genbull F230CF, I believe. So ...

What would you say the banking does? Sometimes I do it, sometimes I don't. I often find that banking can make it easier for it to self-KO.

Banking usually helps to knock the opponent off-balance for me... in NC I've seen the thing take down all kinds of stuff banking.

I'll see if I can get those done later today. Smile

Got 'em done!

Quote:MSF-M Genbull Genbull F230GCF vs. Killerken Dragooon B : D
Dragooon launched first on all launches.
Genbull: wins, 9/10 (All OS)
Dragooon: wins, 1/10 (1 OS)
MSF-M Genbull Genbull F230GCF win rate: 90%

Not unexpected. F230 always beats Synchrom B : D.

Quote:
MSF-M Genbull Genbull F230GCF vs. Duo Cancer SA165TB

Duo launched first on all launches. Genbull banked.
Genbull: wins, 5/20 (1 KO, 4 OS)
Cancer: wins, 15/20 (All OS)
MSF-M Genbull Genbull F230GCF win rate: 25%

Woah! I did not expect that at all... I tried this with CF and still got the same results. I re-did the Dragooon TB testing I did earlier today just to see if my launch had gotten sloppy since then or something:

Quote:Genbull Dragooon F230CF vs. Genbull Dragooon SA165TB
Dragooon SA165 launched first on all launches. Dragooon F230 banked.
F230: wins, 10/10 (All OS)
SA165: wins, 0/10
Genbull Dragooon F230CF win rate: 100%

After this, I was seriously weirded out... I did a few random rounds of testing with right-spin F230 to see if I got the same kinds of results.

Quote:
Killerken Genbull F230CF vs. Killerken Genbull SA165TB

Genbull SA165 launched first on all launches. Genbull F230 banked.
F230: wins, 6/15 (1 KO, 5 OS)
SA165: wins, 9/15 (All OS)
Killerken Genbull F230CF win rate: 40%

Duo Cancer F230CF vs. Genbull Genbull SA165TB

Genbull launched first on all launches. Cancer banked.
Cancer: wins, 0/10
Genbull: wins, 10/10 (All OS)
Duo Cancer F230CF win rate: 0%

Genbull Genbull F230CF vs. Duo Cancer SA165BWD
Duo launched first on all launches. Genbull banked.
Genbull: wins, 9/10 (2 SKO, 7 OS)
Cancer: wins, 1/10 (1 OS)
Genbull Genbull F230CF win rate: 90%

I am honestly baffled at these results. I've tried right-spin F230 against right-spin stamina, but only against BWD (which it almost always takes down). I never thought twice about testing it against TB after it took out BWD.

My only theory for what could be causing this variation in results is that Genbull and Duo, having far superior balance, perform far better than Dragooon on TB. With a flat bottom, minor balance problems won't have too much of an effect on stability and Dragooon F230 is thus able to OS same-spin opponents that right-spin F230 can't, because of Dragooon's incapability on TB.

^That's really the only reason I could think of, but the combos are definitely different in how they deal with same-spin TB opponents. Definitely.

From this at least right-spin F230 seems to be horribly innefective against Genbull/Duo SA165TB, which is fortunately phenomenal against most of the rest of the metagame.

After this, I would honestly still be fine with getting rid of F230CF/GCF altogether, but right-spin F230 doesn't seem quite as OP as Dragooon F230. Dark was originally just going for Dragooon F230, and I honestly think that might be a decent idea, although I would be more than happy to get rid of both. I'm still getting the same results with Dragooon F230.

Do you guys use Dragooon F230 much? Has it lost a lot to anything?

I'm at work right now so I don't have time to respond fully, but you should definitely post these results (plus any thoughts) publicly for everyone to see.

As I stated above, I would assume Dragooon F230CF's ability to OS the ever popluar TB-based stamina customs is due to the fact that Dragooon, being unbalanced as it is, does not work nearly as well as Duo or Genbull on TB. That said, an F230CF combo will theoretically have a far better chance of OSing a Dragooon TB combo than a Genbull/Duo TB combo.

At this rate, I think the best thing we could do would be to ban ____ Dragooon F230CF/GCF from Zero-G tournament play, and think about banning some other F230 customs later. From these test results I've seen how much less overpowered Duo/Genbull F230 seems to be, and they would definitely need far more investigation before we decide if there's a good enough reason to ilegalize them.

Of course, getting rid of a specific part will have a huge effect on the metagame.

Some people I know would love to have Dragooon itself banned altogether, but it's a much more complicated matter when you get down to it. If Dragooon was banned, what's to stop Wyvang BD145RSF or Girago BD145RF from totally overtaking the meta? There are certain combinations that Dragooon is used to counter, and if such a part was banned the entire metagame might become even more one-sided than before.

Illegalizing a part is a big deal and it takes quite a bit of investigation beforehand. Smile

@Red/Brown F230: Nocto's definitely right. It's all or nothing. If someone happened to find a way to legally fix the problems with brown/red F230's, or happens to get a really great mold of one of the two then it could be a problem. There's also the issue of combining different layers of F230's together (which Ingulit addressed a while ago, IIRC), like having the mid-section from a brown F230, and an axle from an Orange one.

Plus, even if we don't ban Red/Brown F230's they're so bad no one's gonna pick them over E230 anyway. Tongue_out
TBD asked me to do these tests, so here they are :

Phoenic Balro SA165 (Zero-G Attack Mode) GF vs. Girago Dragooon F230 GCF
Dragooon slightly banked, launched at 50-60%
Dragooon always launched first (SA165 loses to much spin before I even launch the other bey)
Standard Procedure
Zero-G Stadium Attack Type
Self KoO NOTE REDONE (meant to replicate tournament situation)

PB: 12 wins, 10 KO, 2 OS
GD: 8 wins, 4 KO, 4 OS
Ties: 0
F230 GCF Win Rate: 40%

Detailed Results (Click to View)
Almost all of Phoenic Balro's KOs were clean. It was really cool to watch. I have to say, it is great at what it is meant to do.
I don't feel that F230 needs to be banned. I mean good sway attacks, combos that can hit hard, and defense customs can beat F230 CF in Zero G. I admit it is winning a lot and it is good, but there is a difference between good and broken and I don't find this broken. I could potentially consider banning _____ Dragooon F230 CF/GCF in Zero G, but in BB-10 F230 is easier to counter. If F230 CF/GCF becomes a super huge problem than I agree it should be banned, but right now being one or two of the three to five winning combinations players uses and being countered by some sway and TB it really doesn't deserve to be banned.
I agree, there is no need to ban it, in my opinion. Let's say we were to use Genbull Genbull F230GCF, any Top-Tier right spin attack or stamina, would easily beat it, from all of my testing. The same thing applies if we were to use Genbull Dragooon F230GCF, and used any Left Spin Stamina or Attack.

A lot of things can counter F230, as long as you know what you're doing.

Here are a few things that counter Genbull Genbull and Duo F230CF/GCF

-Duo Cancer/Cygnus SA165TB
-Duo Cancer/Cygnus B;D
-Duo Cancer/Cygnus SA165BWD
-Genbull Genbull SA165TB
-Wyvang Wyvang E230CF/GCF
-Balro Balro E230CF/GCF
-Wyvang Wyvang SA165R2F


Things that can beat Genbull/Wyvang/Girago/Revizer/Killerken Dragooon F230CF/GCF

-Revizer/Genbull/Killerken Dragooon B;D
-Revizer/Genbull Dragooon SA165WD/BWD
-Wyvang Dragooon SA165R2F
-Wyvang Dragooon SA165/E230CF/GCF
-Balro Dragooon E230/SA165CF/GCF
-Duo Cancer F230CF/GCF (sometimes)


I say that if we were to ban anything, I'd say we just ban F230 on left spin, in both BB-10 and Zero-G, since it's a much tougher nut to crack than Genbull Genbull or Duo F230GCF/CF.

*Also, if this doesn't end up being banned, I'm going to make a "Competitive ways to counter F230" thread.
This is actually hilarious... See everything on that list? Well, Genbull Dragooon F230CF actually beat almost exactly what was listed on Saturday.

Like, almost exactly(only difference would be that no one used BWD or R2F). You just need to know how to launch it against stamina and sway attack, and it wins. Ask Dark_Mousy.
(Oct. 29, 2013  3:45 AM)theblackdragon Wrote: This is actually hilarious... See everything on that list? Well, Genbull Dragooon F230CF actually beat almost exactly what was listed on Saturday.

Like, almost exactly(only difference would be that no one used BWD or R2F). You just need to know how to launch it against stamina and sway attack, and it wins. Ask Dark_Mousy.

Like i said before and ill say again, the art of weak launching is a lost art form. Ibwas launching 60% at best. Only time i went 100% was against same spin direction.
I think we shouldn't ban it. A beys a bey. If it's godlike it's godlike. Plus F230 is very rare, especially Orange.
(Oct. 29, 2013  9:01 PM)RagerBlade Wrote: I think we shouldn't ban it. A beys a bey. If it's godlike it's godlike. Plus F230 is very rare, especially Orange.

Libra was banned for a while and it was just a bey.

F230 really isn't rare, saying that means its hard to find. It's not really hard to find, it's just expensive to get by itself.
I didn't agree with that as well. I don't think any bey should be banned unless it's fake. It's my opinion. If we could find a weakness in F230CF/GCF would this idea go down?
If we do anything I think we should limit the uses of it only on dragoon in Zero-G. if we only ban it on dragoon it will allow players to still use duo f230 cf/gcf as a counter vs dragoon B:D witch would be used if f230 was banned on dragoon. Also it may allow the meta game to change or it might go back to what it was before f230.
(Oct. 29, 2013  9:13 PM)RagerBlade Wrote: I didn't agree with that as well. I don't think any bey should be banned unless it's fake. It's my opinion. If we could find a weakness in F230CF/GCF would this idea go down?

Now i don't think it should be banned because no combo is undefeated including F230. So now i don't think it should be banned. I think we should leave it alone.
Duo F230 is still a problem. I think it is almost as good as Dragooon.
(Oct. 29, 2013  9:15 PM)RagerBlade Wrote: Duo F230 is still a problem. I think it is almost as good as Dragooon.

the combos main purpose it to stop dragoon B:D. when placed in a match vs right spin stamina or sway the combo loses quick
True, but I still don't agree with banning it. It can be defeated so it shouldn't be banned. If it can't be defeated then ban it, but that will never happen.
TO everyone posting, please have tests or tournament experience behind your statements. All my statements are based on tests and tournament results. It just seems like some of you have wishy washy opinions.
IMO, Geester is absolutely right. Dragooon F230CF/GCF is the problem here.

As Dark_Mousy stated, all you need is to get the launch down. After that, it pretty much a clean sweep.

Genbull F230 and Duo are both vulnerable to same-spin stamina, whereas Dragooon on TB/BWD has pitiful endurance and balance, so a flat-tipped Dragooon combo will have no problem taking them down. Being so heavy, weak launching will neutralize same-spin sway attack

Duo F230, on the other hand, WILL be trashed by sway attack. I've seen it multiple times. Weak launching helps, but Duo is just so light that any right-spin sway attacker will drill it into the dirt.

Again, regardless of what other users are saying, I haven't seen Dragooon F230 lose since June. It is absolutely OP, and the only thing with a mild chance against it (Dragooon TB) is utterly ineffective against anything else.

Libra had counters... it wasn't unbeatable. It was just overpowered. There were ways to beat it, but they were so limited that throwing a counter out there was extremely risky and liable to end up in a loss if the opponent wasn't using exactly what you though he/she was. It's the same way with F230, except that the counters only work a third of the time.
(Oct. 30, 2013  1:38 AM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: TO everyone posting, please have tests or tournament experience behind your statements. All my statements are based on tests and tournament results. It just seems like some of you have wishy washy opinions.

(Oct. 30, 2013  2:33 AM)theblackdragon Wrote: Again, regardless of what other users are saying, I haven't seen Dragooon F230 lose since June. It is absolutely OP, and the only thing with a mild chance against it (Dragooon TB) is utterly ineffective against anything else.

But... but... I beat it twice in August, then lost the third time because I launched too hard. This was at a tournament, Dark can confirm this as he was one of the people I beat. I think Cannon said he would test Dragooon F230CF vs Balro Wyvang AD145GF, but I don't think he's posted the results yet. I only have 1 Dragooon and no F230TB so I can't test myself.
I think that comparing this possible banning to Libra or Basalt is out of the question because of the massive changes in variables introduced in Zero-G. Because Basalt and libra were more defense/anti attack or variations of these types the launch doesn't really matter, however in Zero-G and apparent extremely so with Dragooon F230CF/GCF the launch matters greatly.

So I would stop comparing this to Libra and Basalt, and start comparing how many test and tournament results was needed to even get the banning. (Because we do have a lack)
Wombat: Ah... I do remember that. That was against me, but it was in the Defense type stadium. I also launched too hard. That's one reason I lost, LOL. XD

ginga: It is dependent on the launch in some cases, but it's really not complicated at all. Just weak launch. 60% launching will get you past any sway attacker in a tournament. If you happen to go up against same-spin stamina, you just need to bank and knock it off balance. It's really not hard, like, at all.

Yes, it's dependent on the launch, but no more so than an attack type (perhaps even less, actually, since it's so easy to do).
I really didn't want the launch part to be the part that was responded to, but oh well ...

Still it does seem to matter more that just straight launching as hard as you can against everything.
Well, if you're talking about tournament results, then we've got plenty from NC... the only problem is, it seems to be regional. :\ Not many people seem to use Dragooon F230 much, and the ones that do seem to lose with it.

The problem is, here, someone shows up with Dragooon F230 and the tournament's already over.
(Oct. 30, 2013  3:34 AM)theblackdragon Wrote: The problem is, here, someone shows up with Dragooon F230 and the tournament's already over.

By "someone", do you mean anyone at all, or just the good Bladers ? Technically the latter are still winning more than a random nobody with a Dragooon F230 combination, no ?
Here in VB it's kinda understood that we don't want any super combos, there's nothing saying that they aren't allowed, we just want a competitive tournament and when someone shows up with a combo like that, we're like: "Really? Aright, let's wreck this dude."
(Oct. 30, 2013  1:33 PM)Kai-V Wrote:
(Oct. 30, 2013  3:34 AM)theblackdragon Wrote: The problem is, here, someone shows up with Dragooon F230 and the tournament's already over.

By "someone", do you mean anyone at all, or just the good Bladers ? Technically the latter are still winning more than a random nobody with a Dragooon F230 combination, no ?

There is a certain amount of skill involved with the combo. But personally I would like to see something done about it. IF i can go to a tournament and go undefeated with it on multiple occasions, then that's something to look into further.
(Oct. 30, 2013  5:43 PM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: There is a certain amount of skill involved with the combo. But personally I would like to see something done about it. IF i can go to a tournament and go undefeated with it on multiple occasions, then that's something to look into further.

But you are ranked thirteen in the whole world : it is not like you are not used to going undefeated or almost ...