WBO Organized Play Rule Updates October 2021

(Oct. 29, 2021  7:57 PM)Shindog Wrote: Got it.  I guess this would apply to things like:
Orbit vs orbital
Destroy vs Destoryer
Planet vs Planetary
Octa vs Octave
And many others

Hmmm… Is Guardian-H suppose to be Guard?

Aren't those all just hypersphere version, which would be covered by:
"only one version(for example regular/Dash/SlingShock/Hypersphere/Metal/High etc.) of a Driver is permitted in deck format."
(Oct. 29, 2021  8:30 PM)froztz Wrote:
(Oct. 29, 2021  7:57 PM)Shindog Wrote: Got it.  I guess this would apply to things like:
Orbit vs orbital
Destroy vs Destoryer
Planet vs Planetary
Octa vs Octave
And many others

Hmmm… Is Guardian-H suppose to be Guard?

Aren't those all just hypersphere version, which would be covered by:
"only one version(for example regular/Dash/SlingShock/Hypersphere/Metal/High etc.) of a Driver is permitted in deck format."
They are.  But if you actually look at something like Power and Power-H or any of the bullets you might not actually be able to tell they are suppose to the variation of a driver.  Same goes with the names.  Personally, I don’t see Octave and think Octa or guardian and guard.

If this is what we decide to do, that is fine.  I would think some explanation/guide/graphic can be helpful.  Ppl have to decide they are indeed the same line.
(Oct. 29, 2021  8:33 PM)Shindog Wrote:
(Oct. 29, 2021  8:30 PM)froztz Wrote: Aren't those all just hypersphere version, which would be covered by:
"only one version(for example regular/Dash/SlingShock/Hypersphere/Metal/High etc.) of a Driver is permitted in deck format."
They are.  But if you actually look at something like Power and Power-H or any of the bullets you might not actually be able to tell they are suppose to the variation of a driver.  Same goes with the names.  Personally, I don’t see Octave and think Octa or guardian and guard.

If this is what we decide to do, that is fine.  I would think some explanation/guide/graphic can be helpful.  Ppl have to decide they are indeed the same line.

A graphic would definitely be helpful!
(Oct. 29, 2021  8:42 PM)froztz Wrote:
(Oct. 29, 2021  8:33 PM)Shindog Wrote: They are.  But if you actually look at something like Power and Power-H or any of the bullets you might not actually be able to tell they are suppose to the variation of a driver.  Same goes with the names.  Personally, I don’t see Octave and think Octa or guardian and guard.

If this is what we decide to do, that is fine.  I would think some explanation/guide/graphic can be helpful.  Ppl have to decide they are indeed the same line.

A graphic would definitely be helpful!
This is a good example courtesy of Zankye.  I think I own all of hypersphere and half of them I can’t tell what they are or who their cousins are. 

[Image: koHQWpJ.jpg]

Do we have to now decide if linear is really of the liner lineage?  And how many graphics is enough?  There are also, of course, exclusives to throw ppl off.
(Oct. 29, 2021  8:56 PM)Shindog Wrote:
(Oct. 29, 2021  8:42 PM)froztz Wrote: A graphic would definitely be helpful!
This is a good example courtesy of Zankye.  I think I own all of hypersphere and half of them I can’t tell what they are or who their cousins are. 

[Image: koHQWpJ.jpg]

Do we have to now decide if linear is really of the liner lineage?  And how many graphics is enough?  There are also, of course, exclusives to throw ppl off.

I could ask the same of Keep-H. It not only lacks any of Keep’s features, it’s also shaped entirely differently. It may as well be called anything else. This could be said of just about every Hypersphere tip - they’re all solid pieces of plastic, but still share namebases with their TT cousins.

Drift-SP doesn’t have a free-spinning plate.
I have to agree. There are some good things about this change, mainly the fact that variants of drift and bearing drivers can no longer be used in the same deck. However, I do think things such as attack drivers and Hypersphere versions/slingshock versions of drivers shouldn’t necessarily be barred from being used in the same deck, especially Hypersphere versions. They are literally entirely different drivers that only share the name with each other, nothing else for the most part.
(Oct. 29, 2021  10:11 PM)BuilderROB Wrote: I have to agree. There are some good things about this change, mainly the fact that variants of drift and bearing drivers can no longer be used in the same deck. However, I do think things such as attack drivers and Hypersphere versions/slingshock versions of drivers shouldn’t necessarily be barred from being used in the same deck, especially Hypersphere versions. They are literally entirely different drivers that only share the name with each other, nothing else for the most part.

I agree. Things like drift and drift can counter anything, same with bearing and bearing. But attack drivers shouldn’t be banned because they just require skill and a bit of luck. It would make things more complicated. Like how do we classify specifically which drivers are banned or not? It’s gonna be quite a process. Personally I would just ban any drivers with high LAD from having 2 variants. 
We could maybe form a list:
Drift
Zone’+z
Bearing
Never
Rise
Xceed’+z
Almight
Mobius
Xtend+
….

And maybe add more as time goes on. But anything other than this list of drivers could be allowed to have 2 variants? Just a thought
(Oct. 29, 2021  4:05 PM)froztz Wrote: An update on rules for October:
  1. Almight is banned in Classic.
  2. For formats with multiple beyblade selection(P3C1/3on3/Deck), only one version(for example regular/Dash/SlingShock/Hypersphere/Metal/High etc.) of a Driver is permitted in deck format.

That last rule sucks tbh - no x'/MX mixing. Was it actually necessary? Tbh I was thinking of suggesting allowing Hasbro versions of drivers alongside TT ones recently in deck to allow different brands of x attack in a single deck in classic and as a way to maybe encourage cross brand use a bit - Hasbro drivers have interesting gimmicks, I'd like to see them get MORE use and exploration, this actually harms that.


Also, metal drivers weight and distro do appear to impact their performance. Personally I much prefer MX on guilty over X. That's not even touching on the above hypersphere discussion...
(Oct. 30, 2021  12:22 AM)th!nk Wrote:
(Oct. 29, 2021  4:05 PM)froztz Wrote: An update on rules for October:
  1. Almight is banned in Classic.
  2. For formats with multiple beyblade selection(P3C1/3on3/Deck), only one version(for example regular/Dash/SlingShock/Hypersphere/Metal/High etc.) of a Driver is permitted in deck format.

That last rule sucks tbh - no x'/MX mixing. Was it actually necessary? Tbh I was thinking of suggesting allowing Hasbro versions of drivers alongside TT ones recently in deck to allow different brands of x attack in a single deck in classic and as a way to maybe encourage cross brand use a bit - Hasbro drivers have interesting gimmicks, I'd like to see them get MORE use and exploration, this actually harms that.


Also, metal drivers weight and distro do appear to impact their performance. Personally I much prefer MX on guilty over X. That's not even touching on the above hypersphere discussion...

I agree, I can understand having this rule for a select few drivers, but a blanket ruling like this seems like it would impact attack types more than defense/stamina types, which have many more viable drivers than attack types do.
(Oct. 29, 2021  7:02 PM)originalzankye Wrote: I'm not really a fan of the rule change having only one version of a driver allowed in P3C1/3on3/Deck just feels weirdly limiting to players and also having a big change like that should've at least had an open discussion before being finalized like that.  

It hasn't even been an actual month since we had the Triple DB Booster or the All In One Set, which is why that whole convo sparked because people were worried about Br/Br' and Dr/MDr in deck. Shouldn't something like this rule before finalized at the very least be tested in unranked before it was given the 100% A-OK, feels like it happened too quickly.

I don't even get the point of it with people being so worried about double drift nor double bearing, we had that new tie rule implemented to avoid LAD spam like that from happening.  

Not to mention how people can easily just run Savior or Guilty and they should have little to no trouble KOing that LAD stuff, I feel like this is just done for people who are afraid to deal with the same part instead of them actually trying to think how to counter it.


The idea with this stuff should be to see how the meta develops and adapt to that and see whether or not it is for better or worse for what change needs to happen.

Feels way too soon to put out a rule like that.

exactly how I feel.. This entire thing started cause people (some in this thread) decided to freak out over bearing' and metal drift with little info and without attempting to find alternative/counters. I mean how many people have actually seen 2 of the "same" drivers in a deck before?
Legitimately it feels like kneejerk baby stuff and feels like people haven't even looked at a Hasbro bey since the original series. You're telling me xc and xc-spm are the same part at all? They're more different than xc' and zn' 😂 Even high versions perform very differently. Like maybe at a stretch dash and non dash makes sense? But even then I have legitimately not seen any evidence that this is a problem even with Br and Br'. If that is an issue - we are crushing so much variety instead of just addressing the problem parts (which again, I have yet to see evidence of the existence of). Spamina is a much more limited issue if running attack, which just became harder. You run a slower qc' and struggle more versus it, or you try to get your hands on Jl', which isn't that easy for a part that wears, if you want to run multiple attack setups to deal with the spamina setups which have much more accessible and less wear-probe driver options that don't break this rule.

Putting aside the fact I think the rule is bad - the process is crazy... Shocking to me that we have this kneejerk reaction to new drivers without actually getting to see what it does to the meta over the course of a reasonable period. Bizarre. Usually the staff are quite wary with big decisions like this, meanwhile this has been smashed out and our dog of a borrowing rule continues to exist. Wack.

Loved the community consultation on it too (this, by the way, needs to be a step for any significant rule change - the fact it is not mandatory for an organisation like this is ridiculous), the test tournaments etc that we request for most large changes - did I miss those? Consistency? Anyone? Does the community actually matter or are we simply entirely subject to the whims (and this ruling absolutely is a whim) of a very select few?

(Oct. 29, 2021  7:16 PM)CrisisCrusher07 Wrote: I was using double drift and was knocked out of the top 8 by a pretty lucky KO.

Man if only there were a way to do that "lucky KO" thing without pure luck. Be a shame if we had that and then a rule came along and made it more difficult while still allowing the use of drift, bearing and zn'+z together anyway. Saying "hey I used this and lost" doesn't really make a strong argument imo - the impact on WC doesn't show and even if it had, players have not had time to adapt. We're creating so much collateral damage based on this? Eeesh.
(Oct. 29, 2021  10:11 PM)BuilderROB Wrote: I have to agree. There are some good things about this change, mainly the fact that variants of drift and bearing drivers can no longer be used in the same deck. However, I do think things such as attack drivers and Hypersphere versions/slingshock versions of drivers shouldn’t necessarily be barred from being used in the same deck, especially Hypersphere versions. They are literally entirely different drivers that only share the name with each other, nothing else for the most part.
Sometimes… they don’t even actually share the same name…..  Not really
(Oct. 30, 2021  1:44 AM)Shindog Wrote:
(Oct. 29, 2021  10:11 PM)BuilderROB Wrote: I have to agree. There are some good things about this change, mainly the fact that variants of drift and bearing drivers can no longer be used in the same deck. However, I do think things such as attack drivers and Hypersphere versions/slingshock versions of drivers shouldn’t necessarily be barred from being used in the same deck, especially Hypersphere versions. They are literally entirely different drivers that only share the name with each other, nothing else for the most part.
Sometimes… they don’t even actually share the same name…..  Not really

That too, but I don’t think name should dictate what can be repeated and what can’t. Dash, metal, high, regular, Hasbro, and maybe even slingshock versions can all be not repeated. I think performance matters more when it comes to things like Charge Metal specifically or the Hypersphere drivers. The reason name shouldn’t even apply here (aside from the reason above) is that I believe some speed storm drivers have different names from their TT counterparts, but perform similarly because aside from a few things they’re the same driver.

Just my opinion on the matter though.
(Oct. 29, 2021  6:33 PM)BuilderROB Wrote:
(Oct. 29, 2021  6:13 PM)MagikHorse Wrote: Is this something that's actually happening up by you, or is there more going on here? It certainly wasn't happening up in Carmel at all at any rate, which may show that it's strictly a regional thing. Still, read below, because I have a lot to say about this.


Questions: Is the problem that people can do it, or a lack of thinking about how to counter these strategies entirely? My argument here is that it's the latter.

This rule is very clearly meant to stop double Bearing and double Drift, let's not kid ourselves here, but in doing so you're hurting its counters as well as plenty of other strategies. What about double Atomic from someone using Atomic-S? Has that ever been a problem in the past, maybe in Burst Limited or something? Is more than one variant of Charge (Charge'/Charge Metal/Charge I-H, Charge II-H, Charge III-H, Charge Metal-SPM) too strong either? Hunter(') and Hunter-S? Why are we hurting so many other things in the way of just dealing with two "problems" that themselves still leave holes that can be easily exploited by anyone that really wants to put their mind to it? I mean heck, wanna beat Bearing or Drift? Try a little same-spin combo or two, you'll see wonders I assure you (this is coming from someone who has beaten Drift in opposite spin before with Orbit, with witnesses to prove it). I've been splashing in Orbit and Atomic in Indiana, and even almost used Moment, I don't see why you guys can't do that either. Don't have faith in your same-spin launching? Run more Attack to KO them before they have a chance, they're not impossible to KO or anything and Guilty does that job well... oh wait, we just got rid of Xtreme'/Xtreme/Metal Xtreme in the same deck. Ah well, whoops! That's a strategy we've lost now then, and here I just wanted to knock double Bearing around.

Sigh, you still underestimate a few things.
1. Drift’s same spin by people like you are still, STILL criminally underrated. Same spin combos are risky, oh so risky, so it’s not a reliable strategy when you could easily mess up and be OSed in opposite spin.
2. Attack isn’t as good as you think anymore. Savior simply isn’t good enough to always KO stuff in right spin, and I can tell you right now that a good drift user in same spin will likely be able to go up against savior and beat it. Guilty is definitely good, but it’s not quite Rage good (guilty is better than rage, but in terms of back in the day, rage was super good, while guilty is just pretty good). The issue is that attack is very risky, and only skilled users of attack are gonna be able to pull it off consistently. These people are rare to find.
3. What about the rare people who get good drift molds? If you combine that with skill in same spin, you can OS atomic. I believe me and arka.Paul have drifts that can pull this off. Mine is a metal drift which is able to OS atomic in same spin. Don’t believe me? I WILL post a video showing this. I won’t rig it, nothing like that. A legitimate video proving mine can pull it off, and somewhat consistently as well.

You underestimate people who can control same spin drivers like drift and bearing well in same spin. Having two drifts or two bearings in a deck is way more powerful than you think. Trying to counter it simply isn’t enough. This change was needed, albeit they might’ve went a bit far with it in terms of what can’t be used in the same deck.

"Do not cite the deep magics to me, Witch. I was there when it was written." -Aslan

Just because you don't seem to know me very well, in Kentucky I rode high on Drift on a Roar Fafnir combo for most of the tournament. I know Drift's same-spin potential, after outspinning a Vanish also using Drift and a couple other assorted same-spin matches (thought he World on Xtend+ might've just fallen because of its lighter weight comparatively). I'm more than aware of its same-spin power, and yet I consistently see it losing to Bearing in same-spin and have multiple records with atomic and Orbit against it as well. That's just tournament facts, undisputable in all essence.

Attack may not be as amazing as it was in the days of Judgement and Rage, but you're underrating it here nonetheless. Even less skilled bladers were doing fine with it in Indiana, and it ended up altering my play enough to matter. Sure, I don't put a ton of stock into Savior (too bursty imo), but just writing off Attack entirely is a poor call in and of itself. Sure, you'll see less of it in the preliminary segment, but in deck? Hooo boy, you're gonna see a lot of it or at the least hybridized forms of it.

And really, why should we judge the value of a part off of the SSS+ tier god molds? How many of those are you ever gonna see, and how long are they going to retain that minty freshness? Odds are high that the answer is "very few" and "not as long as you'd hope".

I certainly don't underestimate people that can control Drift. I am one of those people myself, and I certainly don't underestimate my own abilities now. Heck, if anything I can get a bit cocky sometimes. I still have good reason to believe currently that a deck with multiple Drifts can still easily fall prey to a myriad of other things, including Bearing itself and other more same-spin focused drivers. Drift is beatable, two Drifts should be beatable too.

(Oct. 29, 2021  6:57 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: I can and will inform you of how this logic is flawed. First of all, it's entirely possible to beat Atomic and Orbit Metal with Drift in same spin; I and several others have done so. With this in mind, do you really not think having not one, but two combinations with this potential in a deck is concerning in the slightest? Second of all, do you not realize how easy it is to counter same spin combinations? One good attack combination is all it takes, and then from then on out, all your opponent has to do is pick the combination utilizing a Drift that's the opposite rotation of yours and you're incredibly likely to lose. And, before you say the solution is get good with attack types, Guilty and Savior are good, but they have quite a hard time against opposite spin Drift. Lastly, while it is unfortunate that players can no longer run multiple variants of Xtreme', that doesn't stop you from using Quick', Evolution', etc.

Great, you've seen Atomic lose I guess? I have yet to see either Orbit or Atomic lose against same spin Drift myself, but even if you can pull that off consistently I'm sure you can find other options that don't fall prey the same way. Once again the answer isn't just to ban parts until you're happy, the answer is to get off your butt and look for counters.

Secondly, I've whooped the hide off of several Attack types using same-spin combos, and have in fact bursted JA Industries' Savior Perseus X' combo with Devil+F Perseus Giga Orbit +L twice in a row during deck format. Admittedly part of that was a prior agreement to face off against each other with Perseus should we meet in battle, his white and mine gold, and another part his stubbornness to declare a rematch, but that does nothing still but show that a good same-spin focused combo can stand quite the chance against Attack so this statement is simply false.

Also, the only way that scenario happens in Deck is if they get the first point and push that all the way and literally all you have is 3 same-spin combos, which is unnecessary redundancy in your deck and at that point you're losing because you chose poorly for your third slot altogether. That entire scenario falls apart with any good use of that third slot, but let's run with it anyways for a moment. Let's assume you lose the first point to Attack because you suck defensively or something. Great, but your opponent chooses their combos first there. That means if they choose Drift, you can counterpick them in same-spin all you like for the point back to tie it up. Then you can either hope to get lucky in opposite spin if they counterpick your same-spin option... or you use that third deck slot you've ignored to try and pull back ahead. It's really not that hard to work through man, even with 2 same-spin combos in your deck (especially since Bearing could qualify as one or both of those same-spin options, and is generally favored against Drift in same spin already).

As I said above, Drift has not been a severe problem in the game. Why is it suddenly a problem because there are two of them now? If two Drifts is a problem then one Drift is a problem... but it hasn't been. If you want to sort out a logical flaw, go find a better answer to the one you've just created yourself, and come up with a better scemnario that doesn't ignore the third deck slot entirely.

(Oct. 29, 2021  7:16 PM)CrisisCrusher07 Wrote: To answer your question the weekend after bearing' cane out I hosted a tournament in Silver Springs MD. I know the community there well and knew that people were going to try out double drift or double bearing decks. Once top 8 finals started there were 3 people using one of these 2 strategies. I was using double drift and was knocked out of the top 8 by a pretty lucky KO. Geetser99 made it to 3rd place with double bearing in his deck and a Blader with this only being her second time participating in a tournament (because she is a regular Blader's Mom) got 4th with double drift. She actually could of won but doesn't know enough about the game to select good counters. Then I looked through the WBO winning combos thread and saw that over a few of the standard tournaments there were more people adopting this strategy.

now let's talk about how you say to make a deck to counter these strategies. Well how can you do that if you don't know what they are going to run? Say you build a deck to beat double bearing, but you get up to the stadium to see they are using double drift. Well you now have a super unfavorable match up. Or we can go the opposite way where You build a deck to beat double drift and yet your opponent decides to run double Bearing. It would be a super feel bad day because you lost to the wrong choice in match up. Not because you were less skilled.

Speaking of skill.... What about forcing Bladers to think more about their combos? You can say people arent thinking and need to get good because they are just running double drift and bearing. Well what if someone is good with Destroy? They can build a deck with 3 different destroy combos thanks to destroy, destroy' and Metal destroy. Well where is the skill in that if they don't really have to spread out their parts? That had no thought process what so ever. Just throw a version of destroy on every bey and go. I think the community wants to see Bladers win for their innovation and skill. Not because they are a 1 trick pony.

So, what I get from this first paragraph is "3/8 people tried, nobody won with this strategy". What about that makes this overpowered again if it's apparently not enough to just take the top spot? Like, everyone's acting like it's a free pass to the top, but clearly your own evidence here shows that it isn't so.

Also, deck building is part of the game, as is reading opponents. Realistically Bearing and Drift don't play all that differently to begin with, so what is good for the goose is probably still rather good for the gander too, so this situation you've come up with is probably not very realistic to begin with.

And heck, if someone manages to ever make a triple Destroy deck, good on them. I really wouldn't see that coming in any world at all. Still, that is itself thinking about things, as you don't just use Destroy on absolutely anything. Still, you wanna know what's more innovative and skillful? Finding a better way to beat a double Bearing/double Drift deck than banning things like I've been saying all this time. The more parts you ban, the less creativity you allow in building.

(Oct. 30, 2021  1:07 AM)th!nk Wrote: Legitimately it feels like kneejerk baby stuff and feels like people haven't even looked at a Hasbro bey since the original series. You're telling me xc and xc-spm are the same part at all? They're more different than xc' and zn' 😂 Even high versions perform very differently. Like maybe at a stretch dash and non dash makes sense? But even then I have legitimately not seen any evidence that this is a problem even with Br and Br'. If that is an issue - we are crushing so much variety instead of just addressing the problem parts (which again, I have yet to see evidence of the existence of). Spamina is a much more limited issue if running attack, which just became harder. You run a slower qc' and struggle more versus it, or you try to get your hands on Jl', which isn't that easy for a part that wears, if you want to run multiple attack setups to deal with the spamina setups which have much more accessible and less wear-probe driver options that don't break this rule.

Putting aside the fact I think the rule is bad - the process is crazy... Shocking to me that we have this kneejerk reaction to new drivers without actually getting to see what it does to the meta over the course of a reasonable period. Bizarre. Usually the staff are quite wary with big decisions like this, meanwhile this has been smashed out and our dog of a borrowing rule continues to exist. Wack.

Loved the community consultation on it too (this, by the way, needs to be a step for any significant rule change - the fact it is not mandatory for an organisation like this is ridiculous), the test tournaments etc that we request for most large changes - did I miss those? Consistency? Anyone? Does the community actually matter or are we simply entirely subject to the whims (and this ruling absolutely is a whim) of a very select few?

I firmly believe you're correct here. This is little more than a knee-jerk reaction to the situation without nearly enough thought put into it. The problem here isn't "the parts are too strong", it never has been or else they'd have been problems long before this point before there was a second variant. The problem is people that say "it's too strong" without even trying to find an alternative over banning. This has been the WBO's problem for a while now, with people crying for these parts to be banned before they were even released. Utterly senseless, through and through, and worthy of admonishment.

I mean heck, wasn't Xtend+ supposed to be strong against Drift in same-spin, and isn't another variant of that just about to come up in a week or so that fits the DB height limit just that much better? Like, it looks to me like a ban made just before a part that will serve as a check/counter to it is being released. Where was the thought in that?

Still, if you really want to target this interaction, let's wait a few months and see if it both persists and is an actual problem for the metagame. If it looks dire then, deal with just these parts and don't catch absolutely everything else in the crossfire when you really don't need to. Simpler to say "no duplicate Bearing/Drift" then banning a ton of other results that only cripple the ability of some bladers to actually come up with a strategy at all (e.g. someone who's reliant on both Atomic and Atomic-S), because the way this is currently done is not only confusing as heck but also very limiting to those with fewer parts to use.
(Oct. 29, 2021  4:05 PM)froztz Wrote: An update on rules for October:
  1. Almight is banned in Classic.
  2. For formats with multiple beyblade selection(P3C1/3on3/Deck), only one version(for example regular/Dash/SlingShock/Hypersphere/Metal/High etc.) of a Driver is permitted in deck format.

I don't see how having 2 Drift or Bearings in deck format would be a problem, there are already quite a few 2-Bey combos that cover most of the common combos.

With double Drift you don't have a reliable way to beat other max lad drivers (especially if a couple draws in a row forces a switch) and most of those do better in same spin than Drift.

With double Bearing you need a 3rd bey to cover Guilty&Savior or hope that none of your opponents like using attack.


In comparison, with for example Guilty+Savior or Guilty+Right spin Bearing you almost guarantee a decent matchup vs anything you can face.

Also since you usually don't know whether your opponent will use right or left spin br/dr beforehand, you still have to prepare a deck that covers all 4 even if there is only one of each part-variation allowed.


(Oct. 29, 2021  6:57 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: I can and will inform you of how this logic is flawed. First of all, it's entirely possible to beat Atomic and Orbit Metal with Drift in same spin; I and several others have done so.

Only times I've seen this happen were when people used stuff like Gg/Ov/Tp or 2B and none of those work as well as Wheel with At/O.
(Oct. 19, 2021  1:09 AM)JCE_13 Wrote:
(Oct. 19, 2021  1:00 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: WHY WOULD YOU UNBAN XTEND+ FOR CLASSIC? Just ban Never because Classic shouldn't be powercrept.

Also still not banning Drift and Zone'+Z (and also Bearing') in Limited is quite concerning. The format will still not be fun.

Well, it looks like you haven’t been to a ranked tournament in awhile. The meta is constantly changing. I beat a few double drift and bearing decks myself. But please don’t argue with staff’s decisions.

Tournaments aren't hosted in my area, not to mention the whole pandemic thing.

Being "beatable" doesn't mean healthy or good for the meta, nor does it take into account the perspective of overall powercreep in the Limited meta.

Arguing is part of discussion. You can't tell me I'm not allowed to express a dissenting opinion.
There seems to be enough concern over this rule that I decided to:

https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Possibl...pid1802543
(Oct. 30, 2021  5:46 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote:
(Oct. 19, 2021  1:09 AM)JCE_13 Wrote: Well, it looks like you haven’t been to a ranked tournament in awhile. The meta is constantly changing. I beat a few double drift and bearing decks myself. But please don’t argue with staff’s decisions.

Tournaments aren't hosted in my area, not to mention the whole pandemic thing.

Being "beatable" doesn't mean healthy or good for the meta, nor does it take into account the perspective of overall powercreep in the Limited meta.

Arguing is part of discussion. You can't tell me I'm not allowed to express a dissenting opinion.

The "WHY WOULD YOU UNBAN XTEND+" was taking it too far. You can express an opinion without bringing it to that. Sure, argument is a part of the discussion, but the decision is not yours. Xtend+ won't change the classic meta THAT MUCH. Xtend+ is outclassed by Zone'+Z and Never in every way. It may not be exactly "healthy", but it certainly won't hurt. I don't really think anyone is scared of xtend+ anymore.
(Oct. 30, 2021  1:03 PM)JCE_13 Wrote:
(Oct. 30, 2021  5:46 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Tournaments aren't hosted in my area, not to mention the whole pandemic thing.

Being "beatable" doesn't mean healthy or good for the meta, nor does it take into account the perspective of overall powercreep in the Limited meta.

Arguing is part of discussion. You can't tell me I'm not allowed to express a dissenting opinion.

The "WHY WOULD YOU UNBAN XTEND+" was taking it too far. You can express an opinion without bringing it to that. Sure, argument is a part of the discussion, but the decision is not yours. Xtend+ won't change the classic meta THAT MUCH. Xtend+ is outclassed by Zone'+Z and Never in every way. It may not be exactly "healthy", but it certainly won't hurt. I don't really think anyone is scared of xtend+ anymore.

To be completely honest, I never liked Xtend+. And as of now, I wouldn’t be over exaggerating to say it’s bad.
(Oct. 29, 2021  7:16 PM)CrisisCrusher07 Wrote:
(Oct. 29, 2021  6:13 PM)MagikHorse Wrote: Is this something that's actually happening up by you, or is there more going on here? It certainly wasn't happening up in Carmel at all at any rate, which may show that it's strictly a regional thing. Still, read below, because I have a lot to say about this.


Questions: Is the problem that people can do it, or a lack of thinking about how to counter these strategies entirely? My argument here is that it's the latter.

This rule is very clearly meant to stop double Bearing and double Drift, let's not kid ourselves here, but in doing so you're hurting its counters as well as plenty of other strategies. What about double Atomic from someone using Atomic-S? Has that ever been a problem in the past, maybe in Burst Limited or something? Is more than one variant of Charge (Charge'/Charge Metal/Charge I-H, Charge II-H, Charge III-H, Charge Metal-SPM) too strong either? Hunter(') and Hunter-S? Why are we hurting so many other things in the way of just dealing with two "problems" that themselves still leave holes that can be easily exploited by anyone that really wants to put their mind to it? I mean heck, wanna beat Bearing or Drift? Try a little same-spin combo or two, you'll see wonders I assure you (this is coming from someone who has beaten Drift in opposite spin before with Orbit, with witnesses to prove it). I've been splashing in Orbit and Atomic in Indiana, and even almost used Moment, I don't see why you guys can't do that either. Don't have faith in your same-spin launching? Run more Attack to KO them before they have a chance, they're not impossible to KO or anything and Guilty does that job well... oh wait, we just got rid of Xtreme'/Xtreme/Metal Xtreme in the same deck. Ah well, whoops! That's a strategy we've lost now then, and here I just wanted to knock double Bearing around.

I think it's another case of a poor, uncreative mindset that isn't trying to find counters to these strategies and/or is completely unwilling to take risks shouting for bans. This unwillingness to try and counter these strategies has been something I've been chastising this site as a whole over for months, and yet we've still reached this point despite it to the point where it's actually affecting the game as a whole. No, the issue isn't the parts but rather the players, and overall this ban is a bigger hindrance than a help and squashes just as much if not more of the counterplay.

I must admit, I'm actually appalled by this decision and would see it reversed. This is not needed, it hinders those with lower access to parts, and there are better ways to deal with these basic strategies than banning these repeated parts.


And the fact that this even has to be said is dumb as a sack of bricks as well, and leads to a ton of Hasbro confusion.


To answer your question the weekend after bearing' cane out I hosted a tournament in Silver Springs MD. I know the community there well and knew that people were going to try out double drift or double bearing decks. Once top 8 finals started there were 3 people using one of these 2 strategies. I was using double drift and was knocked out of the top 8 by a pretty lucky KO. Geetser99 made it to 3rd place with double bearing in his deck and a Blader with this only being her second time participating in a tournament (because she is a regular Blader's Mom) got 4th with double drift. She actually could of won but doesn't know enough about the game to select good counters. Then I looked through the WBO winning combos thread and saw that over a few of the standard tournaments there were more people adopting this strategy. 
 
now let's talk about how you say to make a deck to counter these strategies. Well how can you do that if you don't know what they are going to run? Say you build a deck to beat double bearing, but you get up to the stadium to see they are using double drift. Well you now have a super unfavorable match up. Or we can go the opposite way where You build a deck to beat double drift and yet your opponent decides to run double Bearing. It would be a super feel bad day because you lost to the wrong choice in match up. Not because you were less skilled.
 
Speaking of skill.... What about forcing Bladers to think more about their combos? You can say people arent thinking and need to get good because they are just running double drift and bearing. Well what if someone is good with Destroy? They can build a deck with 3 different destroy combos thanks to destroy, destroy' and Metal destroy. Well where is the skill in that if they don't really have to spread out their parts? That had no thought process what so ever. Just throw a version of destroy on every bey and go. I think the community wants to see Bladers win for their innovation and skill. Not because they are a 1 trick pony.

I actually need to correct something from this. The Bladers mom that I said got 4th actually was only top 8. I just remembered watching her lose to the 1st place in deck format. I completely forgot it was during the first round of top cut and I thought it was the 2nd round. That is my bad and I apologize for the incorrect information. It was a long day for me as an organizer to keep up with all of the matches.
If possible I was wondering if any of the staff members could elaborate on their decision to make the driver Variant change? Like I’m just wondering what you’re guys reasoning for it was. Maybe they have reasons as to why they did it that others aren’t thinking of.
(Oct. 30, 2021  1:03 PM)JCE_13 Wrote:
(Oct. 30, 2021  5:46 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Tournaments aren't hosted in my area, not to mention the whole pandemic thing.

Being "beatable" doesn't mean healthy or good for the meta, nor does it take into account the perspective of overall powercreep in the Limited meta.

Arguing is part of discussion. You can't tell me I'm not allowed to express a dissenting opinion.

The "WHY WOULD YOU UNBAN XTEND+" was taking it too far. You can express an opinion without bringing it to that. Sure, argument is a part of the discussion, but the decision is not yours. Xtend+ won't change the classic meta THAT MUCH. Xtend+ is outclassed by Zone'+Z and Never in every way. It may not be exactly "healthy", but it certainly won't hurt. I don't really think anyone is scared of xtend+ anymore.

Quote:Xtend+ is outclassed by Zone'+Z and Never in every way.

That's proving my point. We're creating and allowing more powercreep, which is bad for classic.
(Nov. 01, 2021  8:51 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote:
(Oct. 30, 2021  1:03 PM)JCE_13 Wrote: The "WHY WOULD YOU UNBAN XTEND+" was taking it too far. You can express an opinion without bringing it to that. Sure, argument is a part of the discussion, but the decision is not yours. Xtend+ won't change the classic meta THAT MUCH. Xtend+ is outclassed by Zone'+Z and Never in every way. It may not be exactly "healthy", but it certainly won't hurt. I don't really think anyone is scared of xtend+ anymore.

Quote:Xtend+ is outclassed by Zone'+Z and Never in every way.

That's proving my point. We're creating and allowing more powercreep, which is bad for classic.

Ah, ok. How on earth was I supposed to know you weren't scared of Xtend+ xD

You're worried about the powercreep. Xtend+ won't actually hurt the meta, being an outclassed driver.
(Oct. 29, 2021  5:08 PM)The Supreme One Wrote:
(Oct. 29, 2021  5:02 PM)CrisisCrusher07 Wrote: This was something I brought up when I saw we were getting bearing dash and metal drift. Since their releases I have seen several decks in the winning combination thread abusing 2 versions of the same driver. I’m really glad to see this change! On the topic of this change I only have 1 question. Are “High” drivers considered different than the other versions of the drivers since their performance with how they interact with different disks, layers, and even stadiums can be a lot different than just having a tighter spring like the other driver versions? I’m fine with either ruling I just want to clarify.

Thanks Crisis! Your feedback certainly helped contribute to this change Smile For the sake of clarity and future-proofing the format, high drivers are considered the same part, since they are same-name driver variants.

I actually have a follow up question. So we all know about Xtend, Xtend+, and now High Xtend+’. Well what is the rules on the chips? Like I know you can’t use the + chip twice. And I’m sure you couldn’t use the regular chip twice. I’m asking because Xtend isn’t a useable driver without one of the 2 chips. So if that’s the case are the chips technically the drivers? Or is the core part? Granted I don’t thing the regular Xtend or even regular High Xtend’ would ever be used. It’s just a question me and some friends though of because of all the hype with High Xtend+’ now out.
Way I see it, it's like gears. One copy of a gear. So if you've got Dangerous and Dynamite and Devil in a deck, you're not going to be allowed 3 F gears. Likewise, probably not going to be allowed two Xtend+ chips. Even if you could have Xtend and High Xtend' in the same deck, you'd likely be stuck to one + between them. I don't think this ever came up for Xtend and Xtend+ because original Xtend is not good.