(Oct. 29, 2021 6:33 PM)BuilderROB Wrote: (Oct. 29, 2021 6:13 PM)MagikHorse Wrote: Is this something that's actually happening up by you, or is there more going on here? It certainly wasn't happening up in Carmel at all at any rate, which may show that it's strictly a regional thing. Still, read below, because I have a lot to say about this.
Questions: Is the problem that people can do it, or a lack of thinking about how to counter these strategies entirely? My argument here is that it's the latter.
This rule is very clearly meant to stop double Bearing and double Drift, let's not kid ourselves here, but in doing so you're hurting its counters as well as plenty of other strategies. What about double Atomic from someone using Atomic-S? Has that ever been a problem in the past, maybe in Burst Limited or something? Is more than one variant of Charge (Charge'/Charge Metal/Charge I-H, Charge II-H, Charge III-H, Charge Metal-SPM) too strong either? Hunter(') and Hunter-S? Why are we hurting so many other things in the way of just dealing with two "problems" that themselves still leave holes that can be easily exploited by anyone that really wants to put their mind to it? I mean heck, wanna beat Bearing or Drift? Try a little same-spin combo or two, you'll see wonders I assure you (this is coming from someone who has beaten Drift in opposite spin before with Orbit, with witnesses to prove it). I've been splashing in Orbit and Atomic in Indiana, and even almost used Moment, I don't see why you guys can't do that either. Don't have faith in your same-spin launching? Run more Attack to KO them before they have a chance, they're not impossible to KO or anything and Guilty does that job well... oh wait, we just got rid of Xtreme'/Xtreme/Metal Xtreme in the same deck. Ah well, whoops! That's a strategy we've lost now then, and here I just wanted to knock double Bearing around.
Sigh, you still underestimate a few things.
1. Drift’s same spin by people like you are still, STILL criminally underrated. Same spin combos are risky, oh so risky, so it’s not a reliable strategy when you could easily mess up and be OSed in opposite spin.
2. Attack isn’t as good as you think anymore. Savior simply isn’t good enough to always KO stuff in right spin, and I can tell you right now that a good drift user in same spin will likely be able to go up against savior and beat it. Guilty is definitely good, but it’s not quite Rage good (guilty is better than rage, but in terms of back in the day, rage was super good, while guilty is just pretty good). The issue is that attack is very risky, and only skilled users of attack are gonna be able to pull it off consistently. These people are rare to find.
3. What about the rare people who get good drift molds? If you combine that with skill in same spin, you can OS atomic. I believe me and arka.Paul have drifts that can pull this off. Mine is a metal drift which is able to OS atomic in same spin. Don’t believe me? I WILL post a video showing this. I won’t rig it, nothing like that. A legitimate video proving mine can pull it off, and somewhat consistently as well.
You underestimate people who can control same spin drivers like drift and bearing well in same spin. Having two drifts or two bearings in a deck is way more powerful than you think. Trying to counter it simply isn’t enough. This change was needed, albeit they might’ve went a bit far with it in terms of what can’t be used in the same deck.
"Do not cite the deep magics to me, Witch. I was there when it was written." -Aslan
Just because you don't seem to know me very well, in Kentucky I rode high on Drift on a Roar Fafnir combo for most of the tournament. I know Drift's same-spin potential, after outspinning a Vanish also using Drift and a couple other assorted same-spin matches (thought he World on Xtend+ might've just fallen because of its lighter weight comparatively). I'm more than aware of its same-spin power, and yet I consistently see it losing to Bearing in same-spin and have multiple records with atomic and Orbit against it as well. That's just tournament facts, undisputable in all essence.
Attack may not be as amazing as it was in the days of Judgement and Rage, but you're underrating it here nonetheless. Even less skilled bladers were doing fine with it in Indiana, and it ended up altering my play enough to matter. Sure, I don't put a ton of stock into Savior (too bursty imo), but just writing off Attack entirely is a poor call in and of itself. Sure, you'll see less of it in the preliminary segment, but in deck? Hooo boy, you're gonna see a lot of it or at the least hybridized forms of it.
And really, why should we judge the value of a part off of the SSS+ tier god molds? How many of those are you ever gonna see, and how long are they going to retain that minty freshness? Odds are high that the answer is "very few" and "not as long as you'd hope".
I certainly don't underestimate people that can control Drift.
I am one of those people myself, and I certainly don't underestimate my own abilities now. Heck, if anything I can get a bit cocky sometimes. I still have good reason to believe currently that a deck with multiple Drifts can still easily fall prey to a myriad of other things, including Bearing itself and other more same-spin focused drivers. Drift is beatable, two Drifts should be beatable too.
(Oct. 29, 2021 6:57 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: I can and will inform you of how this logic is flawed. First of all, it's entirely possible to beat Atomic and Orbit Metal with Drift in same spin; I and several others have done so. With this in mind, do you really not think having not one, but two combinations with this potential in a deck is concerning in the slightest? Second of all, do you not realize how easy it is to counter same spin combinations? One good attack combination is all it takes, and then from then on out, all your opponent has to do is pick the combination utilizing a Drift that's the opposite rotation of yours and you're incredibly likely to lose. And, before you say the solution is get good with attack types, Guilty and Savior are good, but they have quite a hard time against opposite spin Drift. Lastly, while it is unfortunate that players can no longer run multiple variants of Xtreme', that doesn't stop you from using Quick', Evolution', etc.
Great, you've seen Atomic lose I guess? I have yet to see either Orbit or Atomic lose against same spin Drift myself, but even if you can pull that off consistently I'm sure you can find other options that don't fall prey the same way. Once again the answer isn't just to ban parts until you're happy, the answer is to get off your butt and look for counters.
Secondly, I've whooped the hide off of several Attack types using same-spin combos, and have in fact bursted JA Industries' Savior Perseus X' combo with Devil+F Perseus Giga Orbit +L
twice in a row during deck format. Admittedly part of that was a prior agreement to face off against each other with Perseus should we meet in battle, his white and mine gold, and another part his stubbornness to declare a rematch, but that does nothing still but show that a good same-spin focused combo can stand quite the chance against Attack so this statement is simply false.
Also, the only way that scenario happens in Deck is if they get the first point and push that all the way and literally all you have is 3 same-spin combos, which is unnecessary redundancy in your deck and at that point you're losing because you chose poorly for your third slot altogether. That entire scenario falls apart with any good use of that third slot, but let's run with it anyways for a moment. Let's assume you lose the first point to Attack because you suck defensively or something. Great, but your opponent chooses their combos first there. That means if they choose Drift, you can counterpick them in same-spin all you like for the point back to tie it up. Then you can either hope to get lucky in opposite spin if they counterpick your same-spin option... or you use that third deck slot you've ignored to try and pull back ahead. It's really not that hard to work through man, even with 2 same-spin combos in your deck (especially since Bearing could qualify as one or both of those same-spin options, and is generally favored against Drift in same spin already).
As I said above, Drift has not been a severe problem in the game.
Why is it suddenly a problem because there are two of them now? If two Drifts is a problem then one Drift is a problem... but it hasn't been. If you want to sort out a logical flaw, go find a better answer to the one you've just created yourself, and come up with a better scemnario that doesn't ignore the third deck slot entirely.
(Oct. 29, 2021 7:16 PM)CrisisCrusher07 Wrote: To answer your question the weekend after bearing' cane out I hosted a tournament in Silver Springs MD. I know the community there well and knew that people were going to try out double drift or double bearing decks. Once top 8 finals started there were 3 people using one of these 2 strategies. I was using double drift and was knocked out of the top 8 by a pretty lucky KO. Geetser99 made it to 3rd place with double bearing in his deck and a Blader with this only being her second time participating in a tournament (because she is a regular Blader's Mom) got 4th with double drift. She actually could of won but doesn't know enough about the game to select good counters. Then I looked through the WBO winning combos thread and saw that over a few of the standard tournaments there were more people adopting this strategy.
now let's talk about how you say to make a deck to counter these strategies. Well how can you do that if you don't know what they are going to run? Say you build a deck to beat double bearing, but you get up to the stadium to see they are using double drift. Well you now have a super unfavorable match up. Or we can go the opposite way where You build a deck to beat double drift and yet your opponent decides to run double Bearing. It would be a super feel bad day because you lost to the wrong choice in match up. Not because you were less skilled.
Speaking of skill.... What about forcing Bladers to think more about their combos? You can say people arent thinking and need to get good because they are just running double drift and bearing. Well what if someone is good with Destroy? They can build a deck with 3 different destroy combos thanks to destroy, destroy' and Metal destroy. Well where is the skill in that if they don't really have to spread out their parts? That had no thought process what so ever. Just throw a version of destroy on every bey and go. I think the community wants to see Bladers win for their innovation and skill. Not because they are a 1 trick pony.
So, what I get from this first paragraph is "3/8 people tried, nobody won with this strategy". What about that makes this overpowered again if it's apparently not enough to just take the top spot? Like, everyone's acting like it's a free pass to the top, but clearly your own evidence here shows that it isn't so.
Also, deck building is part of the game, as is reading opponents. Realistically Bearing and Drift don't play all that differently to begin with, so what is good for the goose is probably still rather good for the gander too, so this situation you've come up with is probably not very realistic to begin with.
And heck, if someone manages to ever make a triple Destroy deck, good on them. I really wouldn't see that coming in any world at all. Still, that is itself thinking about things, as you don't just use Destroy on absolutely anything. Still, you wanna know what's more innovative and skillful? Finding a better way to beat a double Bearing/double Drift deck than banning things like I've been saying all this time. The more parts you ban, the less creativity you allow in building.
(Oct. 30, 2021 1:07 AM)th!nk Wrote: Legitimately it feels like kneejerk baby stuff and feels like people haven't even looked at a Hasbro bey since the original series. You're telling me xc and xc-spm are the same part at all? They're more different than xc' and zn' 😂 Even high versions perform very differently. Like maybe at a stretch dash and non dash makes sense? But even then I have legitimately not seen any evidence that this is a problem even with Br and Br'. If that is an issue - we are crushing so much variety instead of just addressing the problem parts (which again, I have yet to see evidence of the existence of). Spamina is a much more limited issue if running attack, which just became harder. You run a slower qc' and struggle more versus it, or you try to get your hands on Jl', which isn't that easy for a part that wears, if you want to run multiple attack setups to deal with the spamina setups which have much more accessible and less wear-probe driver options that don't break this rule.
Putting aside the fact I think the rule is bad - the process is crazy... Shocking to me that we have this kneejerk reaction to new drivers without actually getting to see what it does to the meta over the course of a reasonable period. Bizarre. Usually the staff are quite wary with big decisions like this, meanwhile this has been smashed out and our dog of a borrowing rule continues to exist. Wack.
Loved the community consultation on it too (this, by the way, needs to be a step for any significant rule change - the fact it is not mandatory for an organisation like this is ridiculous), the test tournaments etc that we request for most large changes - did I miss those? Consistency? Anyone? Does the community actually matter or are we simply entirely subject to the whims (and this ruling absolutely is a whim) of a very select few?
I firmly believe you're correct here. This is little more than a knee-jerk reaction to the situation without nearly enough thought put into it. The problem here isn't "the parts are too strong", it never has been or else they'd have been problems long before this point before there was a second variant. The problem is people that say "it's too strong" without even trying to find an alternative over banning. This has been the WBO's problem for a while now, with people crying for these parts to be banned before they were even released. Utterly senseless, through and through, and worthy of admonishment.
I mean heck, wasn't Xtend+ supposed to be strong against Drift in same-spin, and isn't another variant of that just about to come up in a week or so that fits the DB height limit just that much better? Like, it looks to me like a ban made just before a part that will serve as a check/counter to it is being released. Where was the thought in that?
Still, if you really want to target this interaction, let's wait a few months and see if it both persists
and is an actual problem for the metagame.
If it looks dire then, deal with just these parts and don't catch absolutely everything else in the crossfire when you really don't need to. Simpler to say "no duplicate Bearing/Drift" then banning a ton of other results that only cripple the ability of some bladers to actually come up with a strategy at all (e.g. someone who's reliant on both Atomic and Atomic-S), because the way this is currently done is not only confusing as heck but also very limiting to those with fewer parts to use.
Cincinnati-based Organizer, and owner of every single currently released TT Burst bey part in at least one color. Hard to think of anything I don't have from MFB either...
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For the sake of clarity and future-proofing the format, high drivers are considered the same part, since they are same-name driver variants.
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