Nov-07-2021: "FGC IV: Heavens Arena" reports

The following are words I have to say about "FGC IV: Heavens Arena", an unranked Four-Gaming format 3v3 DB beystadium tournament following the repeal of the 3v3 and deck format one driver per driver family rule.

- I had fun at the tournament. But here is a picture of me immediately following the tournament. This is how I looked and felt:

[Image: PXL-20211107-221626825.jpg]

- The weather was windy and cold. It's November, I don't know what I was expecting. In the morning the wind was actually very brisk. It warmed up bit during the tournament, but I ended up wearing a wool cap and jacket and handwarmers most of the day. Later on I got sort of dry so I removed the hat, but I had the worst case of hat hair without realizing it. Once I did, I put on a baseball cap. Sorry for everyone who had to look at my hat hair.

- This venue we've used many times in tournaments before, but it does have some downsides. The lighting's not great, so when sunset happened at 5, we were really racing against the daylight. The bathrooms have... noticeably deteriorated. They have not been well cared for. And the pavilion, while great at keeping off rain, is bad at keeping off wind.

- StayCool was allowing both Bearing and Bearing' in a single deck, as well as Drift and Metal Drift. Just about everyone who made it to the finals today took advantage of that during first round, and many of them continued to use Double Drift or Double Bearing into the finals.

- An interesting thing I should probably mention about the FG format: One spin direction change was permitted for a single dual spin layer for a participant during a match, in both 3v3 first stage and deck finals. Infinite high/low mode changes were permitted. It led to some delays, and also some matches that dragged on a bit in the finals.

- This tournament took us FIVE HOURS to complete. We began shortly after noon, and it went until 5:12 PM. By the time the Top 3 photo was taken, it was almost dark.

- I was one of the judges at the tournament today. There were 4 beystadiums total, and we had a lot of judges around, so normally you would think things would go fairly quickly. We also were playing under a 3v3 ruleset where a single tie meant "Move on to the next bey", so you'd think it would go quickly. You would be wrong. I didn't encounter any fake parts today. This format was adapted from current Beyblade Burst releases, so the DB layers are still mostly overpowering everything.

- We had a 30 person 5 round swiss, followed by a 8 person single elimination finals.

- I went 3-2 in the first stage. This event was a little unusual, the seeding was random. Granted, almost nobody up here in the Central Atlantic had an extisting rank with FourGaming events, and we mostly had existing WBO ranks, but that's a whole different ballgame. So, randomized seeds. Because of this, the first round pairings were perhaps Unusual, and the finals tallying could not utilize buchholz at all, and ended up using the Challonge Tiebreaker value, which is a little strange sometimes. But hey, not my tournament, not my call. I don't have any strong opinions for or against it, but I've noted before that Swiss is kind of a fragile format, and relies on really accurate seeding.

- So round 1 I got paired up against Friedpasta. An inauspicious start! He's quite good. I managed to win that one, but subsequent matches against Geetster99 and Shadowbey404 did not go well. What can I say? I can say "Astral on Low Mode Bearing Tapered is a bad idea in a DB beystadium". It is. Astral is a bit wider than World, and the shape is less round and more aggressive. On a DB Beystadium, with Bearing, it will tilt to an unwholesome degree! You will lose, probably! If you're going to use Astral in a DB beystadium in low mode, use other drivers instead (your secret's safe with me, Crisis). If you're going to use it in High Mode, well, Bearing's probably fine. Anyhow, my remaining two matches were against Alex C, which I won, and Beymaster. The Beymaster match was kind of close, but I barely defeated him.

- Because of direction changing, a lot of people, myself included, were using Astral in a deck. I only direction changed in two matches, I think I ended up winning those. But what was more surprising is lots of people were using World. World on 1S core. So it was effectively high mode, but it worked really well. Also didn't scrape nearly as much as Astral. A lot of people used World in both the first stage and the finals.

- At one point, before I learned that other drivers stay more upright in the DB Beystadium and are a way safer bet than Bearing on wider layers, I switched to using Karma and Never on a right spin layer. It didn't pan out, but it wasn't a terrible idea. I'd soured on the idea of Tapered for a bit, and it turns out other than Karma there's Not Much Else out there when you've already used Giga and Over. Nexus? Meh.

- I didn't make it to the finals, that's okay. Challonge TB column's sort of weird, I don't fully understand its logic. I halfway think it picks somewhat randomly. Ah well.

- I took a break from judging a bit during the first half of the finals. I just needed a rest. I think all the other judges and organizers saw that except me.  The finals took forever because Ties and Near Ties. I did judge one of the semifinals matches and the 3rd place match. FG format has bladers create a 4th bey (non-repeating parts) when you get 3 consecutive ties in deck format, and that happened in at least two matches.

- A few of the judges were planning on playing Crokinole (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crokinole) after the tournament. We were not counting on it taking quite so long and running out of daylight. I did play a bit once the finals happened.

- There were KOs, even in the DB beystadium. More common than I expected, only slightly less common than in B-09 Beystadiums. I think keeping KOs at one point was a good idea.

- There were even bursts! People were using World, because of direction switching and avoiding scraping. And Worlds did a bit of bursting.

- I really worry about RYANTHEDRAGON98 sometimes. The amount of beyblade cases he is bringing to tournaments is now taller than he is. He rolls them in on a wheeled dolly, and every time I worry that it's going to fall over and hurt him or another blader. A truly horrifying fate. I have jokingly asked him in the past to stop bring a giant leaning wall of beycases, but he hasn't taken it seriously and he just brings more and more. It's going to fall on me one day and kill me, I just know it. There are better ways to stop me from having to judge opposite spin LAD matches. Bladers, please consider bringing only the beyparts you plan on using in a single container.

- It was loud. I don't know why, but it seemed like this tournament had a higher ambient noise level than other tournaments. There were times when I had to ask spectators to stop supplying hummed theme music, and times where I had to ask participants of matches I was judging to stop counting down numbers predicting when the match would end.

- Remember bladers, that for pre-tournament or during tournament free play in other beystadiums, no one is obligated to battle against you, and they don't even need a reason to refuse. Maybe they just don't want to give one because they have valid reasons, but telling you to your face would perhaps be unkind. Responding to a refused challenge with "Why, are you afraid?" is considered poor sportsmanship and a rules violation. Mind your manners, please, or they will be minded for you.

- There was some uncertainty as to when a part or mode change is permissible during Deck Format Finals. In this Four-Gaming tournament, much like in WBO Deck Format Finals, the blader who last won a point chooses their next bey first, and then their opponent chooses their bey. But FG rules are more permissive here, and WBO rules are vague on this. We had situations where a blader won a point, they would choose their next deck bey, their opponent would choose their counter, and then the first blader was allowed to make mode changes, to include High/Low mode switching. In my mind, all height/mode switching should be done at time of selection. Instead of the following scenario (A chooses Bey, B chooses Bey, A takes their bey into high mode, launch) I would recommend that both the FG and WBO rules codify that disassembly-level mode changes (spin direction (only FG), Low/High) only be conducted at bey selection (A chooses Bey and takes it into High Mode, B chooses Bey and maybe takes it into a different mode, launch).

- I think in at least 4 out of the 5 swiss rounds, I would encounter duplicate parts in at least one participants decks in the matches I judged. I would find a duplicate disc, usually Giga, or a duplicate armor. This did not noticeably improve as the tournament went on, because people would switch out parts between rounds, and then not recheck their decks. So, that was kind of a downer. This affected newer bladers, and this also affected more experienced bladers. That made matches take longer.

- I bet you're wondering why the tournament took five hours. Well, the first stage took over 4 hours. And this is because there were Ties or Near Ties multiple times in almost every match. Sure, they weren't as bad, because Tie or not, as long as it wasn't a contactless self-KO, the next bey in the lineup would be used or a reshuffle would happen. But when almost every single match is a close tie, you have to spend time reviewing footage, deciding if it was a real tie or if one of the beys actually won. And in Swiss, you can't start a new round until the previous round is completely done. So there was waiting.

- Why were there so many ties, you ask? Why, in a 3v3 format with single-tie-means-switch-to-next bey, and in normal deck format? It's Double Drift and Double Bearing of course. Not everyone was using two drifts and two bearings in every single match. Everyone competitive was using two drifts and a bearing or two bearings and a drift in almost every single match. I was too, what choice did I have? Every serious opponent was. So Opposite Spin Bearing/Drift matches were The Normal. Instead of the occasional opposite spin match on these drivers, almost everyone was guaranteed to have one OR MORE of these matchups during every single match in every single swiss round. I had at least two first round matches I judged where we had so many raw ties that they had to do TWO RESHUFFLES just for one person to get to 3 points. Actually I might've had 3 or more of those matches. We had... more Ties/Near Ties in this 3v3 1TieSwitch tournament than in a Single Bey Format tournament.

- Back when I ran a 3v3 tournament in, what, August? Yeah, August. We didn't have this problem back then. Bearing' did not exist, Metal Drift did not exist. Even IF a blader brought Drift and Bearing into a single match, the ties were way less common, because all three beys weren't drift and bearing. And now? Now it is entirely different, the odds of having an opposite spin LAD match is basically 1 in 1. This made me miss Single Bey Format. Oh my God, I missed Single Bey Format. That's... oof, that's not a good sign.

- When people were advocating for the repeal of the Only One Part Per Driver Family rule, there were those who mentioned that a severe case of Double Bearing and Double Drift being spammed in 3v3 and Deck format was going to be a consequence of the repeal. And that is exactly what happened. And it doesn't inconvenience most of the people who wanted the repeal, because most of them are not judges. They're attendees, or organizers/staff busy calling out matches, or just random Beyblade fans who have no WBO tournaments at all in their areas and won't or can't put in the effort to make them happen but have a lot of strong opinions about WBO tournament rules anyway. They're not on the front lines of every match, making the matches happen, having to judge these matches. You know who did have to judge these matches? Me and the other judges. And these Tie and Near Tie matches are more than just an inconvenience and/or terribly boring and/or un-fun for the judges and participants involved, it's a logistical nightmare; a 30 person five round swiss shouldn't take 5 hours, not when you have 4 active beystadiums and a lot of judges around. We literally ran out of daylight by the end. It is the Judges who are paying the price for the repeal of that rule. We're the ones who have to judge all these danged opposite spin bearing/drift matches. We're the ones who wind up referring to the slow motion recordings over and over and over again, for hours on end, all because a vocal few, most of whom don't judge and wouldn't be good candidates for it, want everyone to be able spam drift and bearing three times, on three beys, during a swiss round match and deck format. Or want to use both Xtreme' and Metal Xtreme, which is an objectively risky and low-chance of success deck strategy, even on a B-09. I think perhaps some of you are not factoring tournament infrastructure and judging difficulty decisions into your opinions, which seem to be mostly based on Want.

- The idea that anyone who is not actively judging WBO matches should have a significant say in the Only One Part Per Driver Family rulings is deeply flawed. Democracy is not appropriate here. If you aren't judging matches, you should consider being quiet and listening to those who are. The role of Judges in the WBO is sort of taken for granted. They and Organizers have some of the harder tasks in WBO; making tournaments happen, memorizing the rules, spotting fakes, detecting violations in the rules, explaining the rules, answering questions, justifying decisions based on rules. More than most others involved in WBO (participants, non-participant commenters), they have run actual WBO matches and can back up their points with actual facts based on events that have actually happened; their views should be seriously considered, with less credence given to non-judging entities who substitute facts with volume or edge-case theories.

I had a fun time. I think Four-Gaming format events are actually fun and cool. It sounds like StayCool is probably going to mandate a limit of Only One Part Per Driver Family whether or not the WBO decides to reinstate it, which is encouraging. I know I sound stressed out, and I am. I enjoyed the tournament. I enjoy 3v3 format, and I enjoy DB beystadiums. But there were issues with the formatting that were entirely avoidable, and were being tested to be in line with WBO rules. And sometimes when you do a science bad things can happen to people who just want to do a good tournament so everyone has a fun.
I do not believe the  one driver per driver family has been “repealed” in the WBO.  The rule is currently in the WBO rulebook just as it was the day it was announced.  There was a poll and discussion regarding the matter, but that was all.  This event is a FG event of course and running FG rules. 

Interesting to hear that ppl played double bearing.  Even one bearing isn’t all that common to find in a 5G(5 bey) deck in the WBBA when playing in the DB stadium.
In mean, I can see a lot of Dr and maybe Br being difficult in a stadium which is more unfriendly to attack, even by a little. It's a bad stadium having used it now... I wouldn't want to play a tournament in it regardless of rules re drivers or spin direction swaps. Given the larger downside (aside from being too general) of the rule isn't as relevant in a stadium where rubber attack is a bit less useful (even if you can launch it competently), perhaps it is appropriate to have some kind of limit there, but it's also kind of a "getting what you asked for" thing to me. I don't see this as super useful data, but I appreciate the very thorough write up.

For what it's worth, everyone who owns the parts can see how close the matches are, not just judges. I mean, I guess I have judged before, including SCB match in plastics which is very close LAD stuff, but I don't think anyone really wants more LAD, they just disagree about what will be an issue and where to draw the line. Maybe double Br and double Dr are a problem even in standard - just personally I want to see the data come in first and then be more reasonable about how it is handled. I think that's still fair to ask, as it has usually been how more borderline bans have been handled in the past. It lets us get over hype (eg people making tournaments with names hyping the idea up) making for spikes in usage for example - you mention Br not working well for you yet seeing a lot of double usage which seems odd to me? Sorry if this is detracting from your tournament report but your opinions about the driver variant rule seems to be much of the focus.

It is disappointing to hear that 3v3 didn't help you out. Have any other versions of that concept been proposed which you think would help? I still feel more attack is the real cure but I'm curious if putting aside restrictions on similar drivers whether there are any other solutions you personally have thought about, as we still end up with a lot of LAD options regardless?
Just want to make sure people are not confused about the one driver per driver family rule when playing WBO rules as of now.

This is just taken from the rulebook:

[Image: KPIw8k9.jpg]
Oh... that's right... the one driver per driver family is still in place in WBO. Sorry about that, I just... have no faith that it will remain so. I figured the staff would've reversed it by now, because I forgot about rules inertia. It's only a matter of time, you'll revert it. And now that I've seen what the game will look like without it, repeated ad nauseum over the course of 5 rounds of 3v3 and half a deck format finals, I have the depression.

You don't have to like the DB Beystadium. As of now, Burst Standard beystadium is no longer manufactured, so, you'd better just get used to the DB Beystadium.

3v3 is fine, I've run an event for that myself in August. It's great, provided you don't have too many opposite spin LAD tips that work entirely too well on same spin too (2 is a lot, 4 is too many). And I enjoy the DB Beystadium, flaws aside. Drift and Bearing on DB layers in both DB and Burst Standard beystadiums, well, I've covered that subject extensively already. And Staff won't ban or limit them, and every reason I've heard explaining that is not good. And they'll reverse course on limiting one driver per family, because of course they will.
Based on the community proposal in the poll, MDr/Dr and Br/Br’ will be eligible to be limited to one per deck 10 weeks after release,  so I think that is 12/11/21 (the 12/4/21 date in the proposal was a mistake) .  The rule is still in effect now and 12/11/21 is 5 weeks away.  This is only if the proposal gets adopted of course.  A complete reversal or nothing happening at all are possible outcomes too of course.
(Nov. 08, 2021  6:41 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: Oh... that's right... the one driver per driver family is still in place in WBO. Sorry about that, I just... have no faith that it will remain so. I figured the staff would've reversed it by now, because I forgot about rules inertia. It's only a matter of time, you'll revert it. And now that I've seen what the game will look like without it, repeated ad nauseum over the course of 5 rounds of 3v3 and half a deck format finals, I have the depression.

You don't have to like the DB Beystadium. As of now, Burst Standard beystadium is no longer manufactured, so, you'd better just get used to the DB Beystadium.

3v3 is fine, I've run an event for that myself in August. It's great, provided you don't have too many opposite spin LAD tips that work entirely too well on same spin too (2 is a lot, 4 is too many). And I enjoy the DB Beystadium, flaws aside. Drift and Bearing on DB layers in both DB and Burst Standard beystadiums, well, I've covered that subject extensively already. And Staff won't ban or limit them, and every reason I've heard explaining that is not good. And they'll reverse course on limiting one driver per family, because of course they will.

I'm really sorry you feel that way - honestly, if I thought this would help without doing tonnes of collateral damage I'd be in support. I dislike LAD hell as much as the next person, to the extent I will generally try to avoid using it as well. I don't think anyone likes it really.

That's uh, not a great point. BB-10 ended production by Zero G and we don't just play Zero G. Hell, you're old enough to remember plastics. My stadium for that is a 17 year old design... There were plenty of B09's produced, and if burst stops now their production run will have been larger than DB Stadium - ie as long as they don't all go to landfill, they will still be out there.
Also, the WBO once stockpiled BB10s I believe, I'm not sure what happened with it. Personally I would prefer a better stadium or at least shroud than either, even if it isn't made by TT (a WBO Standard Type Stadium perhaps?), but that's another topic entirely. Burst in DB isn't enjoyable from what I've tried, so for me personally, there will always be b09 at burst events when I run them.

Well, I'm fine with them reversing it obviously - I think I made that uh... "Regrettably Clear" in a way I'm apparently remembered for after 8 years (even if no one remembers the context, which is kind of important 😅), and personally I would see it as a matter of staff having flexibility to admit error should they do so, which is a great thing. But as I've said repeatedly, I want the option to be there to address an issue should it be borne out - just without collateral. I don't want endless lad matches any more than you do, I don't think anyone does, we just disagree on how to fix it is all, and that's fine my man.

It's a shame to see someone who used to make fairly upbeat LPs so despondent and negative. Chin up man. We're here to spin tops together.
Thank you DeceasedCrab I really appreciate the input. I know you worked hard yesterday, thank you bro. I did choose the MD area to be my final guinea pigs for our format. I definitely learned a lot and need to fine tune some things, including double variants in 3G or deck. I mean I kinda knew how it would go but I still wanted physical proof lol.

You’re correct, all finalist were using double variants with the exception of 1 or 2.

For challonge I need to inspect it more. I honestly do feel that the algorithm is accurate and I’m gonna do some research to explain it better.

Once again I truly appreciate your help and patience with all this. I’ll be taking steps forward to fine tune some things 👍🏾
This tournament was strictly for Four-Gaming to test out their own format for their own non WBO tournaments. So that’s why they didn’t have the multiple Variant driver rule in effect here.

All in all the tournament was fun. But once agains double drift and double bearing is a problem. The DB stadium helps reduce the amount of draws there can be with oat steeper incline. But even that wasn’t enough. At this point I honestly don’t care if the rule is taken away and replaced with a list. So long as I know I don’t have to live through double drift and double bearing ever again.
(Nov. 08, 2021  7:10 AM)th!nk Wrote: It's a shame to see someone who used to make fairly upbeat LPs so despondent and negative. Chin up man. We're here to spin tops together.
You are confused; I STILL make upbeat LPs. And that has nothing to do with Beyblade. That doesn't mean we can't proactively solve problems ahead of time instead of letting them become problems.
(Nov. 08, 2021  3:33 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote:
(Nov. 08, 2021  7:10 AM)th!nk Wrote: It's a shame to see someone who used to make fairly upbeat LPs so despondent and negative. Chin up man. We're here to spin tops together.
You are confused; I STILL make upbeat LPs. And that has nothing to do with Beyblade. That doesn't mean we can't proactively solve problems ahead of time instead of letting them become problems.

Haha, admittedly it's been a while since I watched an LP, but I'm glad you're not as despondent as you sound, it was jarring when I came back and saw a user called DeceasedCrab sounding pretty miserable. Anyway, that's getting well away from the point - but I am legitimately glad you're well. Maybe like many I just lack context, but I was being sincere man.

There are definitely times I have wanted things solved proactively too, but I was usually asking (or sometimes not so much asking as demanding) for a single part to be banned. In this case I don't really see the ruling as it stands making the LAD issue much better and think a targeted one would have a proportionally greater effect (ie restrict dr and br dupes and allow their counters to have dupes) - is that a point worth considering? I understand we both have similar opinions on committee timeliness, but if they have seen this as a problem, there is clearly some support for limiting these parts to a degree yeah? I know you are concerned about banlist complexity, of course, but I want to give most players I've met more credit (this was the MFB crowd and fairly small tourneys mind), but most judges I've asked don't seem too concerned by the idea of a targeted ban and having to explain it.
(Nov. 08, 2021  3:41 PM)th!nk Wrote:
(Nov. 08, 2021  3:33 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: You are confused; I STILL make upbeat LPs. And that has nothing to do with Beyblade. That doesn't mean we can't proactively solve problems ahead of time instead of letting them become problems.

Haha, admittedly it's been a while since I watched an LP, but I'm glad you're not as despondent as you sound, it was jarring when I came back and saw a user called DeceasedCrab sounding pretty miserable. Anyway, that's getting well away from the point - but I am legitimately glad you're well. Maybe like many I just lack context.

There are definitely times I have wanted things solved proactively too, but I was usually asking (or sometimes not so much asking as demanding) for a single part to be banned. In this case I don't really see the ruling as it stands making the LAD issue much better and think a targeted one would have a proportionally greater effect (ie restrict dr and br dupes and allow their counters to have dupes) - is that a point worth considering? I understand we both have similar opinions on committee timeliness, but if they have seen this as a problem, there is clearly some support for limiting these parts to a degree yeah? I know you are concerned about banlist complexity, of course, but I want to give most players I've met more credit (this was the MFB crowd and fairly small tourneys mind), but most judges I've asked don't seem too concerned by the idea of a targeted ban and having to explain it.

Honestly I think right now if was just a targeted ban list a lot of people would be extemely happy with it. Because Like my first thread about the issue was titled "Concerns for Standard after the October releases" I was mostly concerned because of stictly Bearing' and Metal Drift being released in October. The only thing I can see from what I would assum is the Staffs point of view is just that they wanted the rule to be more future proof. Plus it could of went through their minds that no matter what way they did it someone was gonna be upset. because just like how Attack players could be upset that they can't use double Xtreme, straight Stamina players could get really upset that they can't use Double Bearing. Sure you could argue that they have a lot of other drivers they could use with Bearing like Zone'+Z. But then they can argue that the Attack players could use Quick' with their Xtreme'. It just puts the Staff in a really tough spot.
(Nov. 08, 2021  4:32 PM)CrisisCrusher07 Wrote:
(Nov. 08, 2021  3:41 PM)th!nk Wrote: Haha, admittedly it's been a while since I watched an LP, but I'm glad you're not as despondent as you sound, it was jarring when I came back and saw a user called DeceasedCrab sounding pretty miserable. Anyway, that's getting well away from the point - but I am legitimately glad you're well. Maybe like many I just lack context.

There are definitely times I have wanted things solved proactively too, but I was usually asking (or sometimes not so much asking as demanding) for a single part to be banned. In this case I don't really see the ruling as it stands making the LAD issue much better and think a targeted one would have a proportionally greater effect (ie restrict dr and br dupes and allow their counters to have dupes) - is that a point worth considering? I understand we both have similar opinions on committee timeliness, but if they have seen this as a problem, there is clearly some support for limiting these parts to a degree yeah? I know you are concerned about banlist complexity, of course, but I want to give most players I've met more credit (this was the MFB crowd and fairly small tourneys mind), but most judges I've asked don't seem too concerned by the idea of a targeted ban and having to explain it.

Honestly I think right now if was just a targeted ban list a lot of people would be extemely happy with it. Because Like my first thread about the issue was titled "Concerns-for-Standard-after-the-October-releases", sans-serif]Concerns for Standard after the October releases[/font][/size][/color][/url]" I was mostly concerned because of stictly Bearing' and Metal Drift being released in October. The only thing I can see from what I would assum is the Staffs point of view is just that they wanted the rule to be more future proof. Plus it could of went through their minds that no matter what way they did it someone was gonna be upset. because just like how Attack players could be upset that they can't use double Xtreme, straight Stamina players could get really upset that they can't use Double Bearing. Sure you could argue that they have a lot of other drivers they could use with Bearing like Zone'+Z. But then they can argue that the Attack players could use Quick' with their Xtreme'. It just puts the Staff in a really tough spot.

Quick' is unfortunately not good enough on Savior and Guilty is kind of a waste on it ya know? I've tried in the last few days, believe me - I'm still staring down potentially running a drift combo now and I'm not happy about it! But I get your point and I know I'm missing it to make my own here so... Thing is, no one has really argued that they love stamina and want to use double bearing and double drift yet, only that they either don't think it's an issue, want to see evidence in greater depth, and don't think it's worth kneecapping everything else in the process of dealing with them if they are a problem.

The main reason anyone seems to be upset on either side regarding the game impact is too much LAD or attack being hurt and these two aren't incompatible which is what kills me. I really don't think a targeted ban is much to ask if we do need to ban them (not expressing an opinion there - db stadium doesn't help me determine that and I want to see hype die down a little, so I still don't feel I have data. I'm sorry to hear the tournament was hard on DC though).

Now I'm over my little... Outburst... From the other day (which again, I regret and apologise for) I would like to try to reach more of an understanding than anything. If the committee repeals the rule and they are an issue, I'll argue as hard to restrict them as anyone - I'm on the record saying I don't like LAD battles - but I think this will make the issue a bit worse. Plus, with all the respect in the world to them, whether the staff thought it was right to do it this way or not, we are a community and we can give feedback - I know crab has said he wants to keep the ban simple and I respect that, but I disagree that the cost is worth a very marginal difference in complexity vs the rule as it stands. That's all. I also understand that there is concern that in that time period we are treating tournaments as science experiments. This a) kind of how it has always been and b) as Shindog said, is not far off from the wait period for MDr and Br' anyway. HXt+' may be good but I'm probably one of the only people who really like xt+ in the current meta so... We're being very pre-emptive on very little imo.
(Nov. 08, 2021  4:53 PM)th!nk Wrote:
(Nov. 08, 2021  4:32 PM)CrisisCrusher07 Wrote: Honestly I think right now if was just a targeted ban list a lot of people would be extemely happy with it. Because Like my first thread about the issue was titled "Concerns-for-Standard-after-the-October-releases", sans-serif]Concerns for Standard after the October releases[/font][/size][/color][/url]" I was mostly concerned because of stictly Bearing' and Metal Drift being released in October. The only thing I can see from what I would assum is the Staffs point of view is just that they wanted the rule to be more future proof. Plus it could of went through their minds that no matter what way they did it someone was gonna be upset. because just like how Attack players could be upset that they can't use double Xtreme, straight Stamina players could get really upset that they can't use Double Bearing. Sure you could argue that they have a lot of other drivers they could use with Bearing like Zone'+Z. But then they can argue that the Attack players could use Quick' with their Xtreme'. It just puts the Staff in a really tough spot.

Quick' is unfortunately not good enough on Savior and Guilty is kind of a waste on it ya know? I've tried in the last few days, believe me - I'm still staring down potentially running a drift combo now and I'm not happy about it! But I get your point and I know I'm missing it to make my own here so... Thing is, no one has really argued that they love stamina and want to use double bearing and double drift yet, only that they either don't think it's an issue, want to see evidence in greater depth, and don't think it's worth kneecapping everything else in the process of dealing with them if they are a problem.

The main reason anyone seems to be upset on either side regarding the game impact is too much LAD or attack being hurt and these two aren't incompatible which is what kills me. I really don't think a targeted ban is much to ask if we do need to ban them (not expressing an opinion there - db stadium doesn't help me determine that and I want to see hype die down a little, so I still don't feel I have data. I'm sorry to hear the tournament was hard on DC though).

Now I'm over my little... Outburst... From the other day (which again, I regret and apologise for) I would like to try to reach more of an understanding than anything. If the committee repeals the rule and they are an issue, I'll argue as hard to restrict them as anyone - I'm on the record saying I don't like LAD battles - but I think this will make the issue a bit worse. Plus, with all the respect in the world to them, whether the staff thought it was right to do it this way or not, we are a community and we can give feedback - I know crab has said he wants to keep the ban simple and I respect that, but I disagree that the cost is worth a very marginal difference in complexity vs the rule as it stands. That's all. I also understand that there is concern that in that time period we are treating tournaments as science experiments. This a) kind of how it has always been and b) as Shindog said, is not far off from the wait period for MDr and Br' anyway. HXt+' may be good but I'm probably one of the only people who really like xt+ in the current meta so... We're being very pre-emptive on very little imo.

I'm not really against you on what all you have said. And Like I said I think the someone liking double bearing is just a hypothedical thing that could be said. Not that it will and the Staff had to take stuff like that into consideration. I absoluely hate all of the LAD that's in the current metagame right now. I do know that Quick' isnt the same as Xtreme' by any means, But Zone'+Z isn't the same as Bearing either. That's all I was saying. On the note of High Xtend+' I do think it's going to be good. We are just fortunate enough that because of the rules on the + chip, we wouldn't have to worry about Xtend+ and High Xtend+' being in the same deck no matter what.
Major thank you to everyone that attended. As CrisisCrusher07 mentioned this was to help me get some kinks out of the FGC format for The Circuit going forward. It was a very long day but I am very much appreciate of the MD crew and all surrounding areas that attended 🙏🏾. You all helped in a major way and I’m grateful for all the love and support 💯 😎

One more note our meta game here on the US east coast, I say East because it’s the only place I’ve played, is heavy on stamina. We venture to attack but not consistently. Stamina is a safer option in any format and any stadium, especially in our competitive platforms. So we target those OP stamina drivers as issues. There will always be counters to stamina types but with most counter win rate percentages are quite low. Low enough to arguably be luck as opposed to skill. This is just facts of the current and recent tournaments I’ve attended this year from Florida to DC.

I don’t think we will fully get rid of the LAD problem and it’s not because of drivers/performance tips or what’s good or bad it’s just how we play. No experienced player just yeets beyblades into a stadium. And great attack drivers takes skill that all do not have, I know I don’t have it lol. It’s better to be controlled and accurate which the LAD really provide. Maximizing their skill fits our style of play. So with the FGC format and our others played we just have to create rules and structures around the predominant ways of competitive play.
While I've got you here Staycool - first, thanks for the insight, I know attack isn't easy for many but will endeavour to keep it in mind. I'm curious, and this may have been asked before, about your preference for the DB stadiums? Maybe I'm not used to mine but attack is just.... Not nearly as reliable in them (like, it feels like you're leaving more to chance almost?) and I'm generally not a big fan of the design. Is it just because they are the current production model?
One thing I noticed during the tournament was the sheer dominance of Bearing' over other combos with similar strengths, such as Zone'+Z. I think only two people used Zone'+Z, including myself? Not sure. It stood out to me because it performed pretty well in the matches I used it for. I also really got a feel for how the DB stadium handles traditional attack types, which is to say not very well. Overall, I had a really good time. I will reiterate one of DeceasedCrab's point, that being that Chalonge's tiebreak system doesn't really make sense to me, but that's an issue on my end; bracket structure is still kinda foreign to me. I also got to see HMS/Plastic Gen stuff in-person for the first time, which was pretty cool.
(Nov. 08, 2021  5:26 PM)th!nk Wrote: While I've got you here Staycool - first, thanks for the insight, I know attack isn't easy for many but will endeavour to keep it in mind. I'm curious, and this may have been asked before, about your preference for the DB stadiums? Maybe I'm not used to mine but attack is just.... Not nearly as reliable in them (like, it feels like you're leaving more to chance almost?) and I'm generally not a big fan of the design. Is it just because they are the current production model?

So there are definitely BIG dislikes for the DB stadium from the community and honestly from myself but there are some advantages also. One big advantage is that its new and different. It’s definitely hurts attack, attack as we know it at least, and that is the main growing pain to the community.

I think in time we will either have to develop some meta or find those hidden parts that can bring out some untapped potential with the stadium. 

I initially chose the DB stadium because the B-09 is getting kinda small as TT releases behemoth Beys like Rage in SuperKing and now the size increase with DB. Each generation gets heavier and hits harder and I wanted to grow to adapt that. 

Also, I wanted FGC to be a little different from our norm. I still and will continue to host WBO events and the cat will be out of the bag soon once I host The Circuit in a couple of weeks but I hope to host big events with both formats. Inviting to competitive players to expand their mind, skills and strategy to bring out those true “Pro” bladers. Plus it’s just fun to play something new and different.
(Nov. 08, 2021  6:03 PM)StayCool Wrote:
(Nov. 08, 2021  5:26 PM)th!nk Wrote: While I've got you here Staycool - first, thanks for the insight, I know attack isn't easy for many but will endeavour to keep it in mind. I'm curious, and this may have been asked before, about your preference for the DB stadiums? Maybe I'm not used to mine but attack is just.... Not nearly as reliable in them (like, it feels like you're leaving more to chance almost?) and I'm generally not a big fan of the design. Is it just because they are the current production model?

So there are definitely BIG dislikes for the DB stadium from the community and honestly from myself but there are some advantages also. One big advantage is that its new and different. It’s definitely hurts attack, attack as we know it at least, and that is the main growing pain to the community.

I think in time we will either have to develop some meta or find those hidden parts that can bring out some untapped potential with the stadium. 

I initially chose the DB stadium because the B-09 is getting kinda small as TT releases behemoth Beys like Rage in SuperKing and now the size increase with DB. Each generation gets heavier and hits harder and I wanted to grow to adapt that. 

Also, I wanted FGC to be a little different from our norm. I still and will continue to host WBO events and the cat will be out of the bag soon once I host The Circuit in a couple of weeks but I hope to host big events with both formats. Inviting to competitive players to expand their mind, skills and strategy to bring out those true “Pro” bladers. Plus it’s just fun to play something new and different.

Don’t get me wrong, the DB stadium has some advantages. For example, ties do happen less, and some parts actually get a buff in this stadium, like Universe/Metal Universe. The issue though is attack is very bad in this stadium from my testing. This essentially means defense is pointless as well, so you end up with a stamina only meta in this stadium, and that’s a very bad kind of meta.

I think the standard stadium is fine considering attack actually works in that stadium. I think other stadiums need to be looked at for use to possibly replace the standard stadium. Maybe the dash stadium would work? I’ll try it some when I’m able to.
I had a really good time yesterday, I was very much memeing with my mfb remake combos but sometimes you just don’t wanna use the same boring lad combos everyone else will use. The DB stadium really put a handicap on the attack types for sure, you know that when near everyone in deck (didn’t stick around for all of it) lacked attack types. Even my memey gravity Perseus combos won against guilty karma evo’ (not sure on what the armor was)consistently.
Like DC said though they’re were quite a few knockouts. I did mention that experienced players don’t just yeet Beys but you can in the DB stadium and man it is quite exciting! Same spin stamina has crazy knockouts and burst potential. We even had same spin burst where a player strategically soft launched and burst his opponent. This was risky because if the soft launch wasn’t short of perfect then he risked getting stalled out.

I’ve also seen soft laugh opposite spins on drift lose because they get stalled out if the opponent can stall long enough on the ridge. Unique things definitely happen in the DB stadium and it’s fun to see. Hoping players can build a legit meta around it to master it. But if TT increases the size of the standard stadium then it’ll probably be no questions in regard to transiting to that. Overall we just need more space with these bigger beys
(Nov. 08, 2021  6:28 PM)Broyeeto Wrote: I had a really good time yesterday, I was very much memeing with my mfb remake combos but sometimes you just don’t wanna use the same boring lad combos everyone else will use. The DB stadium really put a handicap on the attack types for sure, you know that when near everyone in deck (didn’t stick around for all of it) lacked attack types. Even my memey gravity Perseus combos won against guilty karma evo’ (not sure on what the armor was)consistently.

I especially enjoy when you bring only MFB remake layers to a match I'm judging, and you watch my eyes so you can see the light drain out of them. I hope that's fun for you. 😀
(Nov. 08, 2021  6:44 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote:
(Nov. 08, 2021  6:28 PM)Broyeeto Wrote: I had a really good time yesterday, I was very much memeing with my mfb remake combos but sometimes you just don’t wanna use the same boring lad combos everyone else will use. The DB stadium really put a handicap on the attack types for sure, you know that when near everyone in deck (didn’t stick around for all of it) lacked attack types. Even my memey gravity Perseus combos won against guilty karma evo’ (not sure on what the armor was)consistently.

I especially enjoy when you bring only MFB remake layers to a match I'm judging, and you watch my eyes so you can see the light drain out of them. I hope that's fun for you. 😀
At least it’s easier to judge when I completely blow apart than a lad match 😂
So I’ll take a minute to talk about the DB stadium. I both absolutely love and absolutely hate this stadium. I love it because it’s different, bigger, and LAD draws happen less than normal because of the steep incline of the inner portion of the stadium. I hate this stadium because of the lack of being able to use attack beys as well as the awkwardness of less contact. You can get plenty of matches where a bey just chills on the ridge and even when it comes into the inner portion of the stadium it just goes around the bey that's in the center and lands back up onto the ridge. Those matches can seem even more boring than 2 beys sitting in the middle spin equalizing. At least you hear the beys hitting each other in that situation!

I will take a minute to say that so far with attack you have 2 choices for it to do well and possibly get those awesome feeling KOs that attack types are known for! The first is you get super boring and use things like Octa, or Wave’ and create a stationary attacker. These heavy stationary attackers hit super hard and can actually do some decent KOs. The second option is to use Venture or Almight. These 2 drivers were pretty much made to be attacking drivers in the DB stadium. So as of now the only way the DB stadium will see good Attacking combos will be if Takara Tomy develops new attacking drivers that work like attackers in the DB stadium.