MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion

(Jan. 22, 2016  12:17 AM)caek Wrote: Some tweaks here and there:

MSF-H (Wyvang/Genbull Killerken) Dragooon BD145 RDF is missing a slash between Genbull and Killerken, and I would suggest including Girago as well.

Is the difference between
{MSF{-H}} (Girago/Genbull/Killerken/Revizer) Dragooon SA165[Normal] EWD
and
{MSF-L} (Girago/Genbull/Killerken/Revizer) Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] EWD
so large that they can't be combined as
{MSF-L/MSF-H} (Girago/Genbull/Killerken/Revizer) Dragooon SA165 EWD?

RB is absent from Defense. Although it's probably not viable on Duo, it should work just fine on Synchromes.

Is Bahamdia Ifraid not viable anymore? I'm not opposed to booting it in favor of Bahamdia Dragooon (I personally haven't been a fan of Bahamdia), but I don't remember seeing tests showing it wasn't competitive.

Flash MF doesn't list Uranus, while Flash RF/R2F/LRF does. A minor nitpick Smile

Wyvang Dragooon SA165RF is Attack, but Wyvang Dragooon BD145RF is Balance?

Will we be adding the {optional} braces to any other combos' Metal Faces? Flash Attack and a lot of the Balance section could probably work well either with or without the extra weight (usually a more Stamina vs more Defense trade)
I think someone just put it like to differentiate the two, but if others are up for it I guess we could combine them like that.

RB is really eww. I know I tested it a while back (and posted results some where in this thread I believe) and it was getting destroyed by everything, didn't matter if it was on a synchrome, Duo, E230 or BD145, it sucked.

Members logic on including Wyvang Dragooon BD145 RF as balance was similar to why Diablo BD145 RF was included on balance a while back. It was just a big tanky combo that could KO, but also had some defense against the attack match up. The SA165 variant was completely attack oriented as it had no defensive properties at all.
how my slightly revised version look? see ultimate spoilt-spoiler bellow

Ultimate Spoilt-Spoiler (Click to View)
Could you put your changes in bold, it would make it easier to look through it.

Also RDF is meh. To easy to KO from my and many other experiences.
Not sure if your in reference to E230RDF, but it may actually be worth removing. RDF is pretty easy to KO at a taller height from what I've experienced. E230 Defense as a whole can't compare to the defense and versatility of BD145RDF's.
(Jan. 22, 2016  11:09 PM)Mitsu Wrote: Not sure if your in reference to E230RDF, but it may actually be worth removing. RDF is pretty easy to KO at a taller height from what I've experienced. E230 Defense as a whole can't compare to the defense and versatility of BD145RDF's.

RDF might be easy to KO on E230... but from my experience E230RDF combos beat out opposing spin SA165RF combos if they can survive the attacks. This lends them some versatility whereas every other defense tip on E230 will lose to SA165RF. This is the only reason why I think it should stay.


(Jan. 22, 2016  12:31 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote:
(Jan. 22, 2016  12:17 AM)caek Wrote: RB is absent from Defense. Although it's probably not viable on Duo, it should work just fine on Synchromes.

RB is really eww. I know I tested it a while back (and posted results some where in this thread I believe) and it was getting destroyed by everything, didn't matter if it was on a synchrome, Duo, E230 or BD145, it sucked.

I personally don't like the simplification of the defensive combos as I feel there are still niche situations where certain tips are still good.

In my opinion worn RB is still good on synchrome E230 because it the combination of the height and the worn tip allows it to carry a really aggressive movement pattern when launched and acts almost as RF (mobile defense) but with more stamina.

But with the abundance of Wyvang and spin equalizers I can see why defense customs are really faltering and have to fall back heavily on RDF...
(Jan. 23, 2016  12:30 AM)juncction Wrote:
(Jan. 22, 2016  11:09 PM)Mitsu Wrote: Not sure if your in reference to E230RDF, but it may actually be worth removing. RDF is pretty easy to KO at a taller height from what I've experienced. E230 Defense as a whole can't compare to the defense and versatility of BD145RDF's.

RDF might be easy to KO on E230... but from my experience E230RDF combos beat out opposing spin SA165RF combos if they can survive the attacks. This lends them some versatility whereas every other defense tip on E230 will lose to SA165RF. This is the only reason why I think it should stay.


(Jan. 22, 2016  12:31 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote:
(Jan. 22, 2016  12:17 AM)caek Wrote: RB is absent from Defense. Although it's probably not viable on Duo, it should work just fine on Synchromes.

RB is really eww. I know I tested it a while back (and posted results some where in this thread I believe) and it was getting destroyed by everything, didn't matter if it was on a synchrome, Duo, E230 or BD145, it sucked.

I personally don't like the simplification of the defensive combos as I feel there are still niche situations where certain tips are still good.

In my opinion worn RB is still good on synchrome E230 because it the combination of the height and the worn tip allows it to carry a really aggressive movement pattern when launched and acts almost as RF (mobile defense) but with more stamina.

But with the abundance of Wyvang and spin equalizers I can see why defense customs are really faltering and have to fall back heavily on RDF...
Doesn't every defense out spin if it survives attack? It's to easy to KO by any other attack not on SA165, and to be fair most people don't use SA165 attack types.

How worn RB are we talking about? Fairly certain attack still demolishes E230 RB, even if the RB is aggressive.
(Jan. 23, 2016  12:35 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote: Doesn't every defense out spin if it survives attack? It's to easy to KO by any other attack not on SA165, and to be fair most people don't use SA165 attack types.

How worn RB are we talking about? Fairly certain attack still demolishes E230 RB, even if the RB is aggressive.

Every pure defense outspins pure attack if it is in the same spin direction.
Opposite spin SA165(ZGA)RF has some LAD attached to it due to the disk which allows it to win very consistently against everything on defense E230 except RDF.

Worn RB, not necessarily flat, but pretty flat, but not illegally so.
I'll have to take a picture.



(Jan. 23, 2016  12:35 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote: Doesn't every defense out spin if it survives attack? It's to easy to KO by any other attack not on SA165, and to be fair most people don't use SA165 attack types.

And I guess that's what concerns me about the competitive list... We have been taking out combos that people 'don't use' for defense... but they still have purpose be it niche or not! There are combos that people 'don't use' as you say: "most people don't use sa165 attack" but, they are on the list listed under Wyvang Dragoon! What is the competitive tier list even for if we are listing combos people in tournaments aren't using?...
I have to agree with juncction's points - E230RDF is nice for opposite spin matchups (and still has a decent chance even against non-Attack left spin); RB is great for Defense once properly worn in, which also gives it a bit of aggressive movement, making it a bit of a hybrid between passive and aggressive Defense; and individual areas' metas really shouldn't be taken into consideration when making the top-tier list (though this can go both ways, since countering a specific combo is arguably a part of a regional meta).
(Oct. 07, 2015  2:16 AM)Time Wrote: The one thing I've really seen them have a problem with is E230. It's well documented I'm a big proponent of them at this point in time. Personally, I really don't think control should ever be a consideration as to whether or not something belongs on the tier list. I can understand the necessity of having an asterisk along the lines of requires substantial practice to use effectively and may produce inconsistent results. However, if it weren't for those two cases, I honestly think we would be arguing about whether or not it should be banned rather than on the tier list. It defeats a higher percentage of everything on the tier list other than basically Wyvang attack. With that said, in the hands of a skilled user, say Sniper, for example, who has used it extensively in Maryland, it is quite a beast to try to defeat. Admittedly, with some notable sure ways to win in the form of E230 on any competitive tip other than RS and certain left-spin defense-stamina hybrids.

On the subject of GF
(Jan. 22, 2016  12:31 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote:
(Jan. 22, 2016  12:17 AM)caek Wrote: Is the difference between
{MSF{-H}} (Girago/Genbull/Killerken/Revizer) Dragooon SA165[Normal] EWD
and
{MSF-L} (Girago/Genbull/Killerken/Revizer) Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] EWD
so large that they can't be combined as
{MSF-L/MSF-H} (Girago/Genbull/Killerken/Revizer) Dragooon SA165 EWD?

RB is absent from Defense. Although it's probably not viable on Duo, it should work just fine on Synchromes.

Wyvang Dragooon SA165RF is Attack, but Wyvang Dragooon BD145RF is Balance?
I think someone just put it like to differentiate the two, but if others are up for it I guess we could combine them like that.

RB is really eww. I know I tested it a while back (and posted results some where in this thread I believe) and it was getting destroyed by everything, didn't matter if it was on a synchrome, Duo, E230 or BD145, it sucked.

Members logic on including Wyvang Dragooon BD145 RF as balance was similar to why Diablo BD145 RF was included on balance a while back. It was just a big tanky combo that could KO, but also had some defense against the attack match up. The SA165 variant was completely attack oriented as it had no defensive properties at all.
I personally think that the SA165 modes should either be combined and then have [Normal Mode/Zero-G Attack Mode]. Though the combo performs slightly differently for the different modes it is still technically the same part, meaning the combos are technically the same... I can understand why people would want them separated though.

I have to agree with Thunder Dome here, I dislike RB for Defense due to its shape. It's a ball, so it skips the Tornado Ridge pretty easily with a strong enough hit (for those of you who are familiar with Plastics, this is the same reason that Customize Metal Change Base made the Top Tier list for Weight-Based Defense while SG Metal Ball Base did not). I still think CS is better for Defense than RB to be honest, just because its shape catches the Tornado Ridge pretty well. RB's aggression could be useful on MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 RSF/RDF though, have we considered adding it there?

What is the logic that Wyvang Dragooon SA165RF is a pure Attack setup while the BD145 variant isn't? I agree that the BD145 version is pretty tanky and has some Defense against an Attack matchup, but why isn't SA165 the same way? I doubt the 2-gram weight difference is why, and depending on the mode I would imagine SA165 has almost as much if not the same amount of Defensive properties. In Normal mode the smooth surface could help deflect hits from below, and in ZGA mode it would result in the opponent hitting the edge of the Spin Track (being not as wide as BD145, but taller, and most Attackers are shorter than 165 height). If Diablo SA165RF somehow became competitive would you consider it a pure Attack setup?

(Jan. 23, 2016  12:35 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote: Doesn't every defense out spin if it survives attack? It's to easy to KO by any other attack not on SA165, and to be fair most people don't use SA165 attack types.

How worn RB are we talking about? Fairly certain attack still demolishes E230 RB, even if the RB is aggressive.

Can't speak on the subject of E230 Defense because I've never really liked E230 as a part and have never really used it either, but on a similar subject, who else would be down for removing Revizer from the tier list? Its Stamina is pitiful; I would bet that most Right Spin Attack types could OS MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RDF. I'm also positive DrPepsidew (a user with far more experience with Standard Defensive customs than me) has said that Genbull is flat-out better for Defense. Sure it's smooth, but according to caek that actually hinders its use in Spin Equalization due to the lack of texture (probably the same reason we make sure the jagged teeth on Meteo are the ones exposed when we use it). I know for a fact I have OSed Revizer Dragooon B:D 3-0 using Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD (granted this was a Zero-G match, but you can see why this battle would be nearly unaffected by the swaying factor), where if my opponent had used Killerken, Girago, Genbull, or maybe even Gargoyle instead of Revizer she would have beaten me 3-0.

(Jan. 23, 2016  2:45 AM)Time Wrote:
(Oct. 07, 2015  2:16 AM)Time Wrote: The one thing I've really seen them have a problem with is E230. It's well documented I'm a big proponent of them at this point in time. Personally, I really don't think control should ever be a consideration as to whether or not something belongs on the tier list. I can understand the necessity of having an asterisk along the lines of requires substantial practice to use effectively and may produce inconsistent results. However, if it weren't for those two cases, I honestly think we would be arguing about whether or not it should be banned rather than on the tier list. It defeats a higher percentage of everything on the tier list other than basically Wyvang attack. With that said, in the hands of a skilled user, say Sniper, for example, who has used it extensively in Maryland, it is quite a beast to try to defeat. Admittedly, with some notable sure ways to win in the form of E230 on any competitive tip other than RS and certain left-spin defense-stamina hybrids.

On the subject of GF

Can't really speak on the subject of GF either, since I haven't used it enough, but I agree that a skill block shouldn't stop something from being on the Top Tier List. However I also think that just because a combo has a skill block to be used effectively that doesn't make it ban-worthy.
I'm all for the removal of Revizer^2. To clarify: Revizer is an amazing part with incredible Defense, but its Stamina when paired with itself is absolute garbage. It's bad enough that you can OS Revizer^2 with a rubber-tipped Attack type, which completely defeats the purpose of having that much Defense in the first place. I think that Revizer should only be used in conjunction with another, different Chrome Wheel - for example, with Killerken, its Stamina is actually quite good, at the expense of a little bit of Defense.
I have a suggestion. how about adding HF/S, GCF, CF as alternative of MF on Phantom Cygnus 85? also i think 90 and DF105 [not sure] can work as alternative of 85.

how about adding RB on Wyvang ^2 BD145? if RDF is unavailable. RB can work better then RSF [as it's more stable].
(Mar. 23, 2016  1:20 PM)FIREFIRE Wrote: I have a suggestion. how about adding HF/S, GCF, CF as alternative of MF on Phantom Cygnus 85? also i think 90 and DF105 [not sure] can work as alternative of 85.

how about adding RB on Wyvang ^2 BD145? if RDF is unavailable. RB can work better then RSF [as it's more stable].

GCF is not an option for Phantom stallers, because a full-power launch with GCF or XF will usually result in a self-KO. It's only really viable for spin-stealers, which don't need a full power launch to win by OS.

WF, HF/S, and CF are less likely to self-KO, but are still probably riskier than MF. Also, when using CF (which directly outclasses WF), it's necessary to use a taller Track (100 or 105 is good) to offset the fact that CF is significantly shorter than MF.

However, lower is better for Phantom; it helps prevent Phantom from getting KOed by avoiding direct contact with opponents - hits will bounce off of Phantom's upper edge, while Phantom will still be able to get at its opponent's underside for destabilization and possibly KOs. Slightly taller Tracks are necessary for CF to make sure Phantom itself doesn't floor scrape, but even then you should stick to the minimum height possible (100, I believe). Phantom's just too lightweight and recoily compared to Synchromes; it has to avoid strong hits.
I need to make a good defence and stamina type bey with these beyblades-
Grand Cetus
Diablo Memesis
Twisted Tempo
Gravity Destroyer
All the L-dragos
Rock Leon
Rock Zurafa
Earth Eagle
Ray Striker
Storm and Galaxy Pegasis

Plzzx help me
Send me a PM for it
Plzz
hello. please ask question like this here https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Build-m...pid1319248
(Apr. 01, 2016  12:10 PM)FIREFIRE Wrote: hello. please ask question like this here https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Build-m...pid1319248

Did basalt bull 230 CS used to be top tier?
Yes friend.
sorry for double post.

I made a completely revised version of the top-tier list. this time, I did lots of researched a lot [read most of MFB customization sub-fourm] and did my best.

if there is anything that can be reworded or if there is a mistake. feel free to correct me.

Revised Version Of Top-Tier List (Click to View)
some thoughts on my changes and some suggestions (Click to View)
Reason I made this revised version of top-tier list (Click to View)
edit:- chages are bolded beyhahaha
Most of your changes weren't really necessary, nor are most of your statements really validated by tests or correct.

Wyvang Dragooon RDF definitely isn't what's considered anti-attack, nor has Dragonis really ever been tested on Flash. I would picture it'd work OK, but there are really no tests that can prove this. RSF is definitely more stable than RB and it really doesn't have any more precession than RSF. All the sub-categories can be under Balance, as it is right now. I don't have much experience with RB paired with BD145, but I do recall it being removed for a certain reason.



I think we seriously need to consider criteria for tier-lists as a whole and it would be pretty awesome if we could start basing top-tier combos off of tournament use. Especially at this point the game as well, we could really tell if a certain winning combination is wacky and if they're really being used in any other country or region. For instance; BD145RF combos are super good for defense. But, are they really used more than the far more versatile Dragooon BD145RDF? The same case applies for something like Duo 160PD; good stamina but not used any more than a Genbull Genbull or a Duo SA165 combo. Thunder Dome had initially mentioned the idea here. I think it's something that would be awesome to go forward with; it gives off an accurate representation of a competitive metagame. https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-WBO-Ran...pid1320278
(Apr. 13, 2016  2:28 AM)Mitsu Wrote: I think we seriously need to consider criteria for tier-lists as a whole and it would be pretty awesome if we could start basing top-tier combos off of tournament use. Especially at this point the game as well, we could really tell if a certain winning combination is wacky and if they're really being used in any other country or region. For instance; BD145RF combos are super good for defense. But, are they really used more than the far more versatile Dragooon BD145RDF? The same case applies for something like Duo 160PD; good stamina but not used any more than a Genbull Genbull or a Duo SA165 combo. Thunder Dome had initially mentioned the idea here. I think it's something that would be awesome to go forward with; it gives off an accurate representation of a competitive metagame. https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-WBO-Ran...pid1320278

I strongly disagree with this. The tier list should include everything that's at that same top tier - all these combos can be tournament viable. It's not about what is used the metagame, it's about what could be used in the metagame. People play differently in different regions; if someone who loves to play Attack and is used to an Attack-heavy meta attends a tournament in a Defense-heavy region, they will have a much harder time (obviously) than they would at home. The tier list should provide a general guide for Bladers, no matter how prominent Attack or Dragooon meta is, and powerful, useful combos should not be discredited simply because other combos see more use.
(Apr. 13, 2016  3:26 AM)Crusty Cake Wrote: I strongly disagree with this. The tier list should include everything that's at that same top tier - all these combos can be tournament viable. It's not about what is used the metagame, it's about what could be used in the metagame. People play differently in different regions; if someone who loves to play Attack and is used to an Attack-heavy meta attends a tournament in a Defense-heavy region, they will have a much harder time (obviously) than they would at home. The tier list should provide a general guide for Bladers, no matter how prominent Attack or Dragooon meta is, and powerful, useful combos should not be discredited simply because other combos see more use.

I think that there is a lot of disagreement for how the current tier list is arranged. Is it a reflection of viable options? Or should it be tuned to strictly tournament exposure?

I have no clue why I haven't thought of this before... but why not just split the list into two?



Competitive Options List
Tournament Winning List


The competitive options list would be somewhat like what we have in the list currently, with links to testing and results so that they can be verified. That list is more of a toolbox where you can pick out options and use them but not necessarily viable in every scene. It's a more opinion based thread that simply gives options that can still beat competitive options of today. For example RF based defense can beat wyvang attack and so as long as there is an overwhelming amount of tests that proves this, then it should be on the list. Rigorous testing by multiple people is the only way to get combos on this list, and thus requires a strong community of people who want the combos to be on there, as well as taking them off.

The tournament winning list would be a list of combos that is based strictly off the winning combinations of a set duration of time or based of the current winning combos. All of these combos should belong on the competitive options list as well, and that list is partially defined based off this list. It shouldn't be too hard to craft either, as the spreadsheets are readily available. But this list would also be much shorter as well, making it easier to just look at it and see what the threats are of today's collective meta-game.

This would be extremely tedious of course to manage both... but maybe I would like to take a crack at it... if I had more time...





And holy carp I totally forgot to post this stuff down here a long time ago...

(Jan. 23, 2016  6:02 AM)Wombat Wrote: I have to agree with Thunder Dome here, I dislike RB for Defense due to its shape. It's a ball, so it skips the Tornado Ridge pretty easily with a strong enough hit (for those of you who are familiar with Plastics, this is the same reason that Customize Metal Change Base made the Top Tier list for Weight-Based Defense while SG Metal Ball Base did not). I still think CS is better for Defense than RB to be honest, just because its shape catches the Tornado Ridge pretty well. RB's aggression could be useful on MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 RSF/RDF though, have we considered adding it there?

I find it quite interesting that there are still equal levels of proponents for CS/RDF/RSF/RB for defense (I like RS for defense as well). I feel like it enforces my stance on leaving these tips on the competitive defense combinations list as it honestly gives them variety and uses, albeit, even though they technically may be worse off in certain situations.

For example, CS has way more stamina than RDF. However, if you knew your area is an attack type heavy location but you weren't sure if they were going to run a defense type as well, then having the option of less defense but more stamina in same rotation spin only opens up your options further allowing you to gamble that your opponent will mess up with their attack type but it also ensures that you will win stamina wise vs another defense type in same rotation.

Limiting it to RF and RDF simply makes defense types even weaker as it limits the overall presence of choice; and choice is the most powerful strategy. If this makes sense. I know nothing prevents you from choosing the other tips, but it does narrow the scope.

If we rule out options we stifle the entire type as a whole. Nobody can really say any previous tip is absolutely bad (even extremely worn RS still has some use in super low LTDC). And that defense types also must battle against each other at times.

We have to also remember that laboratory testing scenarios aren't necessarily true to real life tournaments or competitive scenarios. I can easily put a defense type into the stadium, load the attack type while the defense type rolls to the center, and then shoot at it with an attack type. I'm going to get very high % based off this because I know the defense type is going to be exactly at a particular spot... and I can repeat this almost every single time because I can launch each one at the relatively the exact same place at relatively the exact same timing. But in a tournament, different launch techniques, positions, and strategies can completely skew these %'s, including competition nerves as well.


(Jan. 23, 2016  6:02 AM)Wombat Wrote: Can't speak on the subject of E230 Defense because I've never really liked E230 as a part and have never really used it either, but on a similar subject, who else would be down for removing Revizer from the tier list? Its Stamina is pitiful; I would bet that most Right Spin Attack types could OS MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RDF. I'm also positive DrPepsidew (a user with far more experience with Standard Defensive customs than me) has said that Genbull is flat-out better for Defense. Sure it's smooth, but according to caek that actually hinders its use in Spin Equalization due to the lack of texture (probably the same reason we make sure the jagged teeth on Meteo are the ones exposed when we use it). I know for a fact I have OSed Revizer Dragooon BGrin 3-0 using Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD (granted this was a Zero-G match, but you can see why this battle would be nearly unaffected by the swaying factor), where if my opponent had used Killerken, Girago, Genbull, or maybe even Gargoyle instead of Revizer she would have beaten me 3-0.

(Jan. 23, 2016  6:42 AM)caek Wrote: I'm all for the removal of Revizer^2. To clarify: Revizer is an amazing part with incredible Defense, but its Stamina when paired with itself is absolute garbage. It's bad enough that you can OS Revizer^2 with a rubber-tipped Attack type, which completely defeats the purpose of having that much Defense in the first place. I think that Revizer should only be used in conjunction with another, different Chrome Wheel - for example, with Killerken, its Stamina is actually quite good, at the expense of a little bit of Defense.

I would argue that Revizer is actually absolutely superior to all other defense wheels in a defense setup because: it has a superior shape and it has more stamina than people believe. I also even want to venture as far as to say that Genbull is flat-out inferior to Revizer for defense.

The first is it's shape. It is nearly round in shape and smooth on all surfaces except for one point, it's protruding fin. A mint revizer will have the fin angled almost vertically (which can btw, cause severe injuries... Unhappy). The fin adds unwanted recoil but it also lowers it's stamina. Over moderate use the fin will actually bend slightly inward, which improves it's overall stamina as it's weight is held slightly closer together but it's recoil is also better as well since the fin will make less contact; especially if it's being used on top on right spin or on bottom for left. The other benefit is that it retains it's round shape as it's tilting, which aids it further compared to Killerken or Genbull where their top-sides are extremely jagged and rough edges that are extremely recoily while wobbling and angled. As an added side-effect, are also easier for Wyvang to grip onto because of those features.

The round shape also does really well for spin equalization. I'm not sure what the "texture" thing is... and I don't notice it at all (a lot of my test battles are equalization related) and I don't think it is an actual element in determining a piece's spin equalization. Revizer in my tests for most spin equalization combos actually performs better if not the best since stamina really isn't a factor in spin equalization as precession, LAD, and lowered recoil are. Dragoon F230(G)CF with revizer in my tests does better against Duo SA165 (compared to using Killerken or Genbull), since the smoother revizer wheel on bottom does not have rough geometric edges that severely hinder the last few moments of a match as the combo has fallen over.

The second is stamina. For some reason a lot of people have the notion that revizer and revizer defense customs lose to rubber attack customs. I don't believe this to be true at all. In almost all of my tests, revizer revizer combos most often win when launched at same strength (if it doesn't get knocked out I mean). The only time that it loses is if it is knocked extremely heavily or into the air (but any custom will exhibit massive spin loss from this).

I generally notice during test videos that people will launch attack types much harder than defense types (judging on the sound and motions). This leads me to believe that in combination with launching the defense type first and the harder launch of the attack type creates the illusion that revizer loses too much stamina or loses by OS.

I am not saying revizer has more stamina than other wheels however, killerken and genbull do have more stamina and using reviser + another wheel does aid the stamina, but, I'm stating that revizer in any form shouldn't be removed from any part of the list as it: still does it's job equally or better than other choices in defense, does not lose to rubber attack via OS when launched at same strength at the same time, is a key component in specific spin equalization combos, and thus still has it's place competitively on the list.
Is Mf basalt kerbecs 230MS a good combo? Also reply quick im going to a tournament tommorow.
(Apr. 30, 2016  5:29 AM)GreatgodzeusHD Wrote: Is Mf basalt kerbecs 230MS a good combo? Also reply quick im going to a tournament tommorow.

It is not a great combo, as MS has balance issues and on a tall track, it would have an easier time tipping over. If you replaced it with D or SD, it would be better, but still outclassed.

Do you have any Zero-G beys? They are pretty much what is Competitve good (ex: Wyvang, Dragoon, etc).

This isn't the correct place to dicuss this, as this is to talk about what should be on the tier list. A better place would have been Build Me A Combo! #2 Smile
(Apr. 30, 2016  1:43 PM)Hato Wrote:
(Apr. 30, 2016  5:29 AM)GreatgodzeusHD Wrote: Is Mf basalt kerbecs 230MS a good combo? Also reply quick im going to a tournament tommorow.

It is not a great combo, as MS has balance issues and on a tall track, it would have an easier time tipping over. If you replaced it with D or SD, it would be better, but still outclassed.

Do you have any Zero-G beys? They are pretty much what is Competitve good (ex: Wyvang, Dragoon, etc).

This isn't the correct place to dicuss this, as this is to talk about what should be on the tier list. A better place would have been Build Me A Combo! #2 Smile

Sorry i was being an idiot when i wrote this XD I dont need combo help. But can you say the top tier combos right now?
(May. 01, 2016  4:51 AM)GreatgodzeusHD Wrote:
(Apr. 30, 2016  1:43 PM)Hato Wrote:
(Apr. 30, 2016  5:29 AM)GreatgodzeusHD Wrote: Is Mf basalt kerbecs 230MS a good combo? Also reply quick im going to a tournament tommorow.

It is not a great combo, as MS has balance issues and on a tall track, it would have an easier time tipping over. If you replaced it with D or SD, it would be better, but still outclassed.

Do you have any Zero-G beys? They are pretty much what is Competitve good (ex: Wyvang, Dragoon, etc).

This isn't the correct place to dicuss this, as this is to talk about what should be on the tier list. A better place would have been Build Me A Combo! #2 Smile

Sorry i was being an idiot when i wrote this XD I dont need combo help. But can you say the top tier combos right now?

See first page Smile