(Apr. 13, 2016 3:26 AM)Crusty Cake Wrote: I strongly disagree with this. The tier list should include everything that's at that same top tier - all these combos can be tournament viable. It's not about what is used the metagame, it's about what could be used in the metagame. People play differently in different regions; if someone who loves to play Attack and is used to an Attack-heavy meta attends a tournament in a Defense-heavy region, they will have a much harder time (obviously) than they would at home. The tier list should provide a general guide for Bladers, no matter how prominent Attack or Dragooon meta is, and powerful, useful combos should not be discredited simply because other combos see more use.
I think that there is a lot of disagreement for how the current tier list is arranged. Is it a reflection of viable options? Or should it be tuned to strictly tournament exposure?
I have no clue why I haven't thought of this before... but why not just split the list into two?
Competitive Options List
Tournament Winning List
The competitive options list would be somewhat like what we have in the list currently, with links to testing and results so that they can be verified. That list is more of a toolbox where you can pick out options and use them but not necessarily viable in every scene. It's a more opinion based thread that simply gives options that can still beat competitive options of today. For example RF based defense can beat wyvang attack and so as long as there is an overwhelming amount of tests that proves this, then it should be on the list. Rigorous testing by multiple people is the only way to get combos on this list, and thus requires a strong community of people who want the combos to be on there, as well as taking them off.
The tournament winning list would be a list of combos that is based strictly off the winning combinations of a set duration of time or based of the current winning combos. All of these combos should belong on the competitive options list as well, and that list is partially defined based off this list. It shouldn't be too hard to craft either, as the spreadsheets are readily available. But this list would also be much shorter as well, making it easier to just look at it and see what the threats are of today's collective meta-game.
This would be extremely tedious of course to manage both... but maybe I would like to take a crack at it... if I had more time...
And holy carp I totally forgot to post this stuff down here a long time ago...
(Jan. 23, 2016 6:02 AM)Wombat Wrote: I have to agree with Thunder Dome here, I dislike RB for Defense due to its shape. It's a ball, so it skips the Tornado Ridge pretty easily with a strong enough hit (for those of you who are familiar with Plastics, this is the same reason that Customize Metal Change Base made the Top Tier list for Weight-Based Defense while SG Metal Ball Base did not). I still think CS is better for Defense than RB to be honest, just because its shape catches the Tornado Ridge pretty well. RB's aggression could be useful on MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 RSF/RDF though, have we considered adding it there?
I find it quite interesting that there are still equal levels of proponents for CS/RDF/RSF/RB for defense (I like RS for defense as well). I feel like it enforces my stance on leaving these tips on the competitive defense combinations list as it honestly gives them variety and uses, albeit, even though they technically may be worse off in certain situations.
For example, CS has way more stamina than RDF. However, if you knew your area is an attack type heavy location but you weren't sure if they were going to run a defense type as well, then having the option of less defense but more stamina in same rotation spin only opens up your options further allowing you to gamble that your opponent will mess up with their attack type but it also ensures that you will win stamina wise vs another defense type in same rotation.
Limiting it to RF and RDF simply makes defense types even weaker as it limits the overall presence of choice; and choice is the most powerful strategy. If this makes sense. I know nothing prevents you from choosing the other tips, but it does narrow the scope.
If we rule out options we stifle the entire type as a whole. Nobody can really say any previous tip is absolutely bad (even extremely worn RS still has some use in super low LTDC). And that defense types also must battle against each other at times.
We have to also remember that laboratory testing scenarios aren't necessarily true to real life tournaments or competitive scenarios. I can easily put a defense type into the stadium, load the attack type while the defense type rolls to the center, and then shoot at it with an attack type. I'm going to get very high % based off this because I know the defense type is going to be exactly at a particular spot... and I can repeat this almost every single time because I can launch each one at the relatively the exact same place at relatively the exact same timing. But in a tournament, different launch techniques, positions, and strategies can completely skew these %'s, including competition nerves as well.
(Jan. 23, 2016 6:02 AM)Wombat Wrote: Can't speak on the subject of E230 Defense because I've never really liked E230 as a part and have never really used it either, but on a similar subject, who else would be down for removing Revizer from the tier list? Its Stamina is pitiful; I would bet that most Right Spin Attack types could OS MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RDF. I'm also positive DrPepsidew (a user with far more experience with Standard Defensive customs than me) has said that Genbull is flat-out better for Defense. Sure it's smooth, but according to caek that actually hinders its use in Spin Equalization due to the lack of texture (probably the same reason we make sure the jagged teeth on Meteo are the ones exposed when we use it). I know for a fact I have OSed Revizer Dragooon B
3-0 using Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD (granted this was a Zero-G match, but you can see why this battle would be nearly unaffected by the swaying factor), where if my opponent had used Killerken, Girago, Genbull, or maybe even Gargoyle instead of Revizer she would have beaten me 3-0.
(Jan. 23, 2016 6:42 AM)caek Wrote: I'm all for the removal of Revizer^2. To clarify: Revizer is an amazing part with incredible Defense, but its Stamina when paired with itself is absolute garbage. It's bad enough that you can OS Revizer^2 with a rubber-tipped Attack type, which completely defeats the purpose of having that much Defense in the first place. I think that Revizer should only be used in conjunction with another, different Chrome Wheel - for example, with Killerken, its Stamina is actually quite good, at the expense of a little bit of Defense.
I would argue that Revizer is actually absolutely superior to all other defense wheels in a defense setup because: it has a superior shape and it has more stamina than people believe. I also even want to venture as far as to say that Genbull is flat-out inferior to Revizer for defense.
The first is it's shape. It is nearly round in shape and smooth on all surfaces except for one point, it's protruding fin. A mint revizer will have the fin angled almost vertically (which can btw, cause severe injuries...
). The fin adds unwanted recoil but it also lowers it's stamina. Over moderate use the fin will actually bend slightly inward, which improves it's overall stamina as it's weight is held slightly closer together but it's recoil is also better as well since the fin will make less contact; especially if it's being used on top on right spin or on bottom for left. The other benefit is that it retains it's round shape as it's tilting, which aids it further compared to Killerken or Genbull where their top-sides are extremely jagged and rough edges that are extremely recoily while wobbling and angled. As an added side-effect, are also easier for Wyvang to grip onto because of those features.
The round shape also does really well for spin equalization. I'm not sure what the "texture" thing is... and I don't notice it at all (a lot of my test battles are equalization related) and I don't think it is an actual element in determining a piece's spin equalization. Revizer in my tests for most spin equalization combos actually performs better if not the best since stamina really isn't a factor in spin equalization as precession, LAD, and lowered recoil are. Dragoon F230(G)CF with revizer in my tests does better against Duo SA165 (compared to using Killerken or Genbull), since the smoother revizer wheel on bottom does not have rough geometric edges that severely hinder the last few moments of a match as the combo has fallen over.
The second is stamina. For some reason a lot of people have the notion that revizer and revizer defense customs lose to rubber attack customs. I don't believe this to be true at all. In almost all of my tests, revizer revizer combos most often win when launched at same strength (if it doesn't get knocked out I mean). The only time that it loses is if it is knocked extremely heavily or into the air (but any custom will exhibit massive spin loss from this).
I generally notice during test videos that people will launch attack types much harder than defense types (judging on the sound and motions). This leads me to believe that in combination with launching the defense type first and the harder launch of the attack type creates the illusion that revizer loses too much stamina or loses by OS.
I am not saying revizer has more stamina than other wheels however, killerken and genbull do have more stamina and using reviser + another wheel does aid the stamina, but, I'm stating that revizer in any form shouldn't be removed from any part of the list as it: still does it's job equally or better than other choices in defense, does not lose to rubber attack via OS when launched at same strength at the same time, is a key component in specific spin equalization combos, and thus still has it's place competitively on the list.
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