Um I don't think it has to have recoil. Also Reviser Reviser is heavier than Diablo.
MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion
(Sep. 27, 2012 12:46 PM)Ultra Wrote: Um I don't think it has to have recoil. Also Reviser Reviser is heavier than Diablo.
hmmm, doesn't anti-attack entail "KO-ing and not OS-ing Attack Types" which is what calls for the differentiation between Anti-Attack and standard Defense? in any case i know that Reviser Reviser is a whole 10 grams heavier than Diablo, but it still doesn't fulfill the 2nd criteria of being able to KO things consistently due to it's lack of recoil.
if my understanding of Anti-Attack as an archetype is wrong, then i apologize and retract my earlier statement =)
That's why it has an attack bottom instead of something like RDF or MB. To KO the other combo.
yes, but i'm saying that reviser reviser has more difficulty KO-ing than Diablo because of it's lack of recoil. i guess tests are in order *scoots off to wear down his R^2F for testing*
Recoil is never a positive attribute to a part so I very much doubt what you're saying is true. Might be. However I think it needs testing to prove or disprove that notion.
(Sep. 27, 2012 1:30 PM)slyx Wrote: yes, but i'm saying that reviser reviser has more difficulty KO-ing than Diablo because of it's lack of recoil. i guess tests are in order *scoots off to wear down his R^2F for testing*I don't think so.If Reviser Reviser has more difficulty KO-ing the other custom then it is probably due to the lack of recoil in the other custom as reviser reviser is somehow supposed to use the opposing combo's recoil against it while using it's low recoil,weight and the friction being created between it and the stadium to prevent it from being KOed too. Correct me if I'm wrong though
(Sep. 28, 2012 2:56 PM)abrakadabralaka Wrote:(Sep. 27, 2012 1:30 PM)slyx Wrote: yes, but i'm saying that reviser reviser has more difficulty KO-ing than Diablo because of it's lack of recoil. i guess tests are in order *scoots off to wear down his R^2F for testing*I don't think so.If Reviser Reviser has more difficulty KO-ing the other custom then it is probably due to the lack of recoil in the other custom as reviser reviser is somehow supposed to use the opposing combo's recoil against it while using it's low recoil,weight and the friction being created between it and the stadium to prevent it from being KOed too. Correct me if I'm wrong though
i think what's making me think the way i am is because diablo is one of the most popular anti-attack wheels along with basalt. both wheels have quite notable recoil, especially diablo. the only reason why anti-attack combos are not also ko'ed is solely because of their weight and grip on the stadium floor
I guess if you feel that way you should test it out. I will only be able to test like next week or so due to exams.But it has been tested and proven that reviser reviser is good at anti-attack.
where are the tests for this? the only ones i could find were done by kitai:
and it clearly shows that Reviser Reviser can only OS Variares and cannot KO it. sure, it beats attack, but i've always thought that the whole point of anti-attack is to be able to counter KO attack types while being able to KO stamina types at the same time. the fact the Reviser Reviser can only KO a high-recoil stamina combo (Phantom based) 60% of the time is also worrying, seeing as i can KO Phantom Cancer W145 WD 100% of the time with even MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145 RDF.
based on the above tests by kitai, i believe that Reviser Reviser fails to perform as an anti-attack setup due to it's inability to KO attack types (if it can't KO the recoil heavy VariAres, what hope does it have against, i quote, "the recoiless monster Flash"?) at all and reliably (above 80%) KO stamina types.
EDIT: i thought it would be good to compare Reviser Reviser with Diablo and Basalt, so i dug out all the relevant tests and pasted them below for easy viewing:
Zancrow's Test:
Angryface's tests:
Ingulit's Basalt Tests:
IMO, THIS is what anti-attack is supposed to do: KO attack types reliably, which based off our only reviser test, our 60gram cylinder just doesn't cut it. if you're planning on OS-ing attack types you just may as well use standard defense. i rest my case =)
(Aug. 23, 2012 7:43 PM)Kitai Wrote:Attack Tests (Click to View)Stamina Tests (Click to View)Defense Tests (Click to View)
and it clearly shows that Reviser Reviser can only OS Variares and cannot KO it. sure, it beats attack, but i've always thought that the whole point of anti-attack is to be able to counter KO attack types while being able to KO stamina types at the same time. the fact the Reviser Reviser can only KO a high-recoil stamina combo (Phantom based) 60% of the time is also worrying, seeing as i can KO Phantom Cancer W145 WD 100% of the time with even MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145 RDF.
based on the above tests by kitai, i believe that Reviser Reviser fails to perform as an anti-attack setup due to it's inability to KO attack types (if it can't KO the recoil heavy VariAres, what hope does it have against, i quote, "the recoiless monster Flash"?) at all and reliably (above 80%) KO stamina types.
EDIT: i thought it would be good to compare Reviser Reviser with Diablo and Basalt, so i dug out all the relevant tests and pasted them below for easy viewing:
Zancrow's Test:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Um I was asking Ingulit whether it was a good idea. I know it doesn't have any proper testing. Nothing has any proper testing. What do you not get from Anti Attack? It's aim is to defeat attack. It's a lot more diverse than just defence. If a defence combo goes against stamina it's pretty much gonna lose. However that's not the case with Anti Attack.
i'm just saying that based off the above tests, basalt and diablo do much better jobs as Anti-attackers than Reviser Reviser. one can even say that basalt and diablo outclass reviser reviser. since we are making a top-tier list, nothing but the best should be on the list and outclassed combos should be left out, wouldn't you agree?
of course, like you say, more tests are indeed needed at this time =) i'm still trying to learn how to launch anti-attack combos well (right now my diablo just crashes all over the place), so at this point i don't think my anti-attack tests would mean anything.
on a side note, isn't it really hard to test anti-attack with only one person because the first beyblade launched would already lose the chance of it's initial burst of speed by the time the 2nd is launched?
of course, like you say, more tests are indeed needed at this time =) i'm still trying to learn how to launch anti-attack combos well (right now my diablo just crashes all over the place), so at this point i don't think my anti-attack tests would mean anything.
on a side note, isn't it really hard to test anti-attack with only one person because the first beyblade launched would already lose the chance of it's initial burst of speed by the time the 2nd is launched?
Not too sure here, but it seems to me like you guys are talking about two different types of Anti-Attack: One that's a balance of Attack and Defense, and one that's a defensive MW/Track on an offensive Bottom.
A combo like MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF/R2F, which can KO Stamina types, Attack types, and occasionally OS Attackers too, is more of a balance between Defense and Attack. So, an Attack-Defense hybrid. A combo such as MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RF, which cannot KO Stamina or Attack types as easily, but can OS Attackers, is more of a "true" Anti-Attacker as it's still primarily Defense oriented while still keeping an aggressive movement.
Equalizer/Zombie Comparisons!
MSF Revizer Dragooon B:D v. MF-H Gravity Perseus (Stamina Ver.) BD145RDF;
RD: 1 OS
GP: 9 OS
Ties: 6
Gravity's RDF went crazy one round, almost self-KO'd, came back to the center of the stadium with hardly any spin, and tied. lol Dragooon's win was by, maybe, a hundredth of a spin.
MSF Revizer Dragooon SA165(Normal Mode)WD v. MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145RDF;
RD: 0 OS
GP: 10 OS
Ties: 0
I'm not sure if EWD makes that much of a difference, but yeah... I usually prefer MF-L on my Gravity.
A couple more things: VariAres beats a lot of things that Flash has trouble with like MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145RSF and MF-H Phantom SA165(Normal Mode)RDF, due to its aggressive design, so I think it should definitely stay up. Not just for the reason that it can spin left.
Also, 160 seems to be a lovely height on Flash in general, so I'll definitely try to get some testing in on that too.
A combo like MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF/R2F, which can KO Stamina types, Attack types, and occasionally OS Attackers too, is more of a balance between Defense and Attack. So, an Attack-Defense hybrid. A combo such as MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RF, which cannot KO Stamina or Attack types as easily, but can OS Attackers, is more of a "true" Anti-Attacker as it's still primarily Defense oriented while still keeping an aggressive movement.
Equalizer/Zombie Comparisons!
Equipment (Click to View)
Conditions (Click to View)
MSF Revizer Dragooon B:D v. MF-H Gravity Perseus (Stamina Ver.) BD145RDF;
RD: 1 OS
GP: 9 OS
Ties: 6
Gravity's RDF went crazy one round, almost self-KO'd, came back to the center of the stadium with hardly any spin, and tied. lol Dragooon's win was by, maybe, a hundredth of a spin.
MSF Revizer Dragooon SA165(Normal Mode)WD v. MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145RDF;
RD: 0 OS
GP: 10 OS
Ties: 0
I'm not sure if EWD makes that much of a difference, but yeah... I usually prefer MF-L on my Gravity.
A couple more things: VariAres beats a lot of things that Flash has trouble with like MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145RSF and MF-H Phantom SA165(Normal Mode)RDF, due to its aggressive design, so I think it should definitely stay up. Not just for the reason that it can spin left.
Also, 160 seems to be a lovely height on Flash in general, so I'll definitely try to get some testing in on that too.
![[Image: vwa_copy3_by_elcesplooshe_daejy2u-fullvi...Za8ANFHK5M]](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/0779b042-834a-4ac6-9292-fab88a9af9cb/daejy2u-70e51d94-acbe-4593-ad69-5434d834b672.jpg/v1/fill/w_1024,h_317,q_75,strp/vwa_copy3_by_elcesplooshe_daejy2u-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MzE3IiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMDc3OWIwNDItODM0YS00YWM2LTkyOTItZmFiODhhOWFmOWNiXC9kYWVqeTJ1LTcwZTUxZDk0LWFjYmUtNDU5My1hZDY5LTU0MzRkODM0YjY3Mi5qcGciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9MTAyNCJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.GJIQK2sXAJm5ScpS3pSVJ8KrA6Ru9qtE4Za8ANFHK5M)
(Sep. 28, 2012 3:34 PM)slyx Wrote: where are the tests for this? the only ones i could find were done by kitai:All the tests other than the one for basalt was against flash w145mf set- ups, which obviously has lesser grip and speed so it will get koed easier . So you cant really compare the 2.
(Aug. 23, 2012 7:43 PM)Kitai Wrote:Attack Tests (Click to View)Stamina Tests (Click to View)Defense Tests (Click to View)
and it clearly shows that Reviser Reviser can only OS Variares and cannot KO it. sure, it beats attack, but i've always thought that the whole point of anti-attack is to be able to counter KO attack types while being able to KO stamina types at the same time. the fact the Reviser Reviser can only KO a high-recoil stamina combo (Phantom based) 60% of the time is also worrying, seeing as i can KO Phantom Cancer W145 WD 100% of the time with even MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145 RDF.
based on the above tests by kitai, i believe that Reviser Reviser fails to perform as an anti-attack setup due to it's inability to KO attack types (if it can't KO the recoil heavy VariAres, what hope does it have against, i quote, "the recoiless monster Flash"?) at all and reliably (above 80%) KO stamina types.
EDIT: i thought it would be good to compare Reviser Reviser with Diablo and Basalt, so i dug out all the relevant tests and pasted them below for easy viewing:
Zancrow's Test:
Angryface's tests:Spoiler (Click to View)
Ingulit's Basalt Tests:Spoiler (Click to View)
IMO, THIS is what anti-attack is supposed to do: KO attack types reliably, which based off our only reviser test, our 60gram cylinder just doesn't cut it. if you're planning on OS-ing attack types you just may as well use standard defense. i rest my case =)Spoiler (Click to View)
Of course he can. The tests you say are invalid prove the point he's attempting to convey exactly.
Diablo and Basalt are capable of KO'ing Attackers, as displayed in those three tests, whereas Revizer Revizer is not as capable.
Diablo and Basalt are capable of KO'ing Attackers, as displayed in those three tests, whereas Revizer Revizer is not as capable.
@angryface:
thanks for the tests for GP!! i am honestly so happy about these results, because my initial hunch that it could function as a right spin spin stealer to counter dragooon was correct! would you be able to test it against meteo l-drago CH120 WD? i don't have meteo. could you test it for both as a right spin spin stealer and then in left spin to try and KO the meteo combo? if you can't i should be getting my meteo in the next 2 weeks or so, so no worries!
i see your point about the two types of anti-attack, and from what i gather i may be mistaken regarding my perception of anti-attack after all. thanks for helping me understand, ultra, abra, and angry! =)
thanks for the tests for GP!! i am honestly so happy about these results, because my initial hunch that it could function as a right spin spin stealer to counter dragooon was correct! would you be able to test it against meteo l-drago CH120 WD? i don't have meteo. could you test it for both as a right spin spin stealer and then in left spin to try and KO the meteo combo? if you can't i should be getting my meteo in the next 2 weeks or so, so no worries!
i see your point about the two types of anti-attack, and from what i gather i may be mistaken regarding my perception of anti-attack after all. thanks for helping me understand, ultra, abra, and angry! =)
dont you guys think that there should be a top 3 for each category like
Note: this doesnt mean i want blitz to be on the top -tier list for attack its just an example... what i want is there to be a top 3 for every typeinstead of just the top 2...
Quote:Attack
Flash
•Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces, Horogium
•MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/GB145/H145) (RF/R2F)
•MF-H Flash Orion W145 MF
VariAres
•MF-H VariAres (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)
Blitz
•Clear Wheels: Unicorno II
•MF-H Blitz ___ (100/CH120) (RF/R2F)
Note: this doesnt mean i want blitz to be on the top -tier list for attack its just an example... what i want is there to be a top 3 for every typeinstead of just the top 2...
The competitive customizations list is based on what deserves to be up there, which only relates to a number of viable combinations in that if there are already three or four good wheels for a type, the fifth-best is probably not going to be competitive.
This means that if there are only two competitive MW's for a part, they're all that will be listed.
Basically: No, and it's not worth discussing.
This means that if there are only two competitive MW's for a part, they're all that will be listed.
Basically: No, and it's not worth discussing.
![[Image: UwZsp7A.png]](https://i.imgur.com/UwZsp7A.png)
ohh.. alright thnaks for the info th!nk, never thought about it that way.. :p
(Sep. 29, 2012 1:26 AM)Insomniac Wrote: Not too sure here, but it seems to me like you guys are talking about two different types of Anti-Attack: One that's a balance of Attack and Defense, and one that's a defensive MW/Track on an offensive Bottom.
A combo like MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF/R2F, which can KO Stamina types, Attack types, and occasionally OS Attackers too, is more of a balance between Defense and Attack. So, an Attack-Defense hybrid. A combo such as MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RF, which cannot KO Stamina or Attack types as easily, but can OS Attackers, is more of a "true" Anti-Attacker as it's still primarily Defense oriented while still keeping an aggressive movement.
Equalizer/Zombie Comparisons!
Equipment (Click to View)
Conditions (Click to View)
MSF Revizer Dragooon B:D v. MF-H Gravity Perseus (Stamina Ver.) BD145RDF;
RD: 1 OS
GP: 9 OS
Ties: 6
Gravity's RDF went crazy one round, almost self-KO'd, came back to the center of the stadium with hardly any spin, and tied. lol Dragooon's win was by, maybe, a hundredth of a spin.
MSF Revizer Dragooon SA165(Normal Mode)WD v. MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145RDF;
RD: 0 OS
GP: 10 OS
Ties: 0
I'm not sure if EWD makes that much of a difference, but yeah... I usually prefer MF-L on my Gravity.
A couple more things: VariAres beats a lot of things that Flash has trouble with like MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145RSF and MF-H Phantom SA165(Normal Mode)RDF, due to its aggressive design, so I think it should definitely stay up. Not just for the reason that it can spin left.
Also, 160 seems to be a lovely height on Flash in general, so I'll definitely try to get some testing in on that too.
Thanks for the testing. Awesome results too. I doubt people will ignore Gravity now haha.
Angry face(or Isomniac, whoever you are), nice results for Gravity perseus. It should be top tier along with LDD. Have you tried using MF, does it produce the same results? I heard it also can be used. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
Yes that combo has been used in the UK to counter 230 combos too. Invented by Blitz I think. Not sure whether it would get the same results though.
the MF variant is more of a destabilizer while the RDF variant is a spin stealer due to the LAD that RDF provides, IIRC.
slyx if that's the case then it probably won't do too well in today's meta with E230's ability to nullify destabilisation.
Does anyone think killerken dragoon should be on the list, because Ingulit must have left it out for a reason . IMO it should be in balance
Does anyone think killerken dragoon should be on the list, because Ingulit must have left it out for a reason . IMO it should be in balance
(Sep. 29, 2012 5:29 AM)slyx Wrote: would you be able to test it against meteo l-drago CH120 WD? i don't have meteo. could you test it for both as a right spin spin stealer and then in left spin to try and KO the meteo combo?
Sure, but Meteo wouldn't stand a chance if Gravity were in left. The rubber produces too much recoil, so it'd just end up getting out-spun horribly, or KO'd really quickly, ha ha.
(Sep. 29, 2012 10:12 AM)abrakadabralaka Wrote: Ingulit must have left it out for a reason .
Because there's very little substantial testing on it...(?)
Even today, Gravity is much like Meteo, it stands the test of time...
With that being said, I'm going with Ultra. Gravity deserves a spot somewhere on this list.
With that being said, I'm going with Ultra. Gravity deserves a spot somewhere on this list.