MFB: Limited :: Primer, Random Thoughts, and Q&A Thread!

Not really considering the original Leone can also use an MF-H, and has a much better weight distribution. It just doesn't seem that effective though, I expected it to be really good from playing around with it before Limited was announced (better than Pegasis good, even) but when I went to test it, it just didn't do nearly enough, which is sad as I really like Leone both design wise and in how it works - I just wish it worked a little better.

Anyway, I've played around with counter and despite what I thought back in the day it seems inferior to Rock.
Batch Attack Testing: Chrome Wheels Part 1: Right Spin

Okay, here's the first instalment of my testing of Chrome Wheels against a single Defense Combo, just to get a general idea of their attack power, today is Right Spin. I'm not really planning on doing any Chrome Up tests because it's generally inferior to either Left or Right Crystal Up, so there should only be two parts, left spin should be along tomorrow.

Obviously this only shows their side-on ability, generally most of them are best at that

I didn't test the following wheels as they have no attack against same-height opponents: Orojya, Revizer (Orojya has some smash if it can get under things but being a chrome wheel this isn't easy for it to do against most opponents).
I do not own the following Chrome Wheels: Begirados, Pegasis, Gryph, Gargole, Girago, Genbull. Didn't want to make a thread when most of these likely have attack potential.

The Part Choices: (Click to View)

The Opponent: MF-H Libra SW145CS (Click to View)

The Setup and Method: (Click to View)

The Tests

Benchmark: MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK, Counter) R145LRF (Right Spin)
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 4/20 = 20% (3KO, 1OS)
Gravity: 16/20 = 80% (All KOs)

There were a tonne of DKO's and I'm not sure why, it's not normal, but perhaps the overhang that lets gravity land hits on Libra's recoily underside was also hitting SW145 or something, resulting in both flying out??? I dunno. Still, Gravity's overhang does mean these results are a little exaggerated (but then, it wasn't even in its best spin direction for this matchup either...)


MSF-H Thief Balro R145LRF
Notes: Balro's contact points are really easily blocked, Thief only blocks two, making it better than Gladiator and Samurai.
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 7/20 = 35% (4KO, 3OS)
Balro: 13/20 = 65% (All KO)

Balro scored a lot of lategame KO's, I wish I'd noted them down, but I almost think it's more dangerous lategame than at the start, if only because it tends to get knocked out more early on

MSF-H Gladiator Killerken R145LRF
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 8/20 = 40% (2KO, 6OS)
Killerken: 12/20 = 60% (All KO)

Killerken is awesome – as long as you have a strong launch (which also means a string launcher with no skipping or string length loss from fraying), a fast rubber tip, and it makes contact in the opening seconds of the match. I know I mentioned it in the testing criteria, but when you look at these results, please keep in mind that I redid any sub-par launches, because Killerken is a lot less forgiving than most of the other beys that got similar results.

MSF-H Thief Phoenic H145LRF
Notes: H145 used because otherwise Phoenic gets wrecked by Bakushin LTDC
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 5/20 = 25% (3KO, 2OS)
Phoenic: 15/20 = 75% (All KO)

Assuming Gravity gets banned, Phoenic will probably become my main attack wheel. It's relatively forgiving compared to most chrome wheels, and it's also effective against opponents at any height. Gravity is probably just slightly better against most things particularly because it has dual spin, but this combo is great and I love it.

MSF-H Gladiator Wyvang R145LRF
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 7/20 = 35% (3KO, 4OS)
Wyvang: 13/20 = 65% (All KO)

Wyvang is not amazing against same-height opponents, which isn't too surprising looking at its sides. Pretty good attack wheel all around though.

MSF-H Gladiator Dragooon R145LRF
Dragooon is heavier mold.
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 7/20 = 35% (1KO, 6OS)
Dragooon: 13/20 =65% (All KO)

Dragooon is a little inconsistent, some hits are really hard, some aren't so hard, and towards the end there it seemed less powerful, maybe just bad luck though. That said, it's a very solid attack chrome wheel and deserves further testing.

MSF-H Gladiator Bahamdia R145LRF
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 9/20 = 45% (1KO, 8OS)
Bahamdia: 11/20 = 55% (All KO)
NOTE: A significant number of Libra's wins came from repeated wall saves. Bahamdia should've netted closer to 65%, both based on how many wall saves there were and the fairly sizeable amount of informal testing I've done with it in the past. As such, I will probably redo these tests tomorrow if I get time.

Bahamdia hits as hard as anything in the format but it is extremely unforgiving – I was going to make a discussion thread for it, but it only made me question my ability as a blader. I find it has a tendency to just wander out of the stadium mid-battle for no apparent reason (perhaps due to its width?). It also has a lot of rotational recoil. That said, if it lands a hit early on, whatever it hits is not staying in the stadium. A surprisingly small number of Libra's victories came from KO's, but that's more because of it being ridiculously lucky with wall saves.
Oh, Bahamdia also has another problem in general which is that its thin, flat design means it can only hit same-height opponents. Generally a Crystal Wheel gives it something against taller opponents, but it's too light to really be good with H145 so it can't do much to low track opponents.

MSF-H Samurai Saramanda R145LRF
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 7/10 = 70% (1KO, 6OS)
Saramanda: 3/10 = 30% (All KO)
Stopped after 10 rounds as Saramanda showed pretty much no potential as a serious attack part.

Saramanda did better in pre-testing, but this fits my previous experience with it. Saramanda sucks and also has awful balance even for an unsynchromed Zero G wheel (it hops), I'm pretty sure TT giving it SW145SD was no coincidence. Ew.

MSF-H Samurai Ifraid R145LRF
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 9/15 = 60% (2KO, 7OS)
Ifraid: 6/15 = 40% (All KO)
Did 10 Rounds and stopped as it scored under 50%, went back after doing the second 10 Goreim Rounds and did five more just in case, but it showed no improvement. Ifraid has some power sometimes but most of its hits do nothing, so eh.

MSF-H Thief Goreim R145LRF
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 9/20 = 45% (2KO, 7OS)
Goreim: 11/20 = 55% (All KO)

What Goreim lacks in power it makes up for in heart. It missed the 50% cutoff for the first 10 rounds in the tenth round due to wall saves, and in the elimination testing I did yesterday against MF-H Libra GB145RSF it didn't manage to budge the thing (so it nearly missed out on being tested at all). Basically, I went in expecting this thing to just bounce off Libra and it came pretty close to being even, so I gave it another shot after I was done everything else, and it did a pretty solid job (admittedly I think it got a little lucky in the last ten rounds but eh). You go little guy, you go. ;_;7


That's all I've got for today. I'll be back tomorrow with Dark Knight/Left Spin tests, hopefully.
Very interesting...

I was actually playing around with MSF-H Shinobi Balro R145R2F earlier today, and it didn't do half bad against mid-height customs. It takes a beating against lower tracks, but hey, it's definitely viable. Plus, I think it could have some serious potential on an LTAC, seeing as it's probably the only Chrome wheel you can actually get a balanced combination out of.

I also tried Bahamdia, and I'm glad you got results like that. I was worried I had a problem with something from what you said about it earlier. XD Its contact points were waaaaaaaaaaaay too thin to make consistent contact with more than 1 or 2 mid-height tracks, and even when it hit it was very inconsistent. If the heights were lined up right, it got some pretty decent numbers, but it seems to be a little picky with its part choice and one variant can't deal with very many different customs. :\

Phoenic and Wyvang are by far my favorite Attack Chrome Wheels.

LOL, as soon as this format came out everyone's brains went right to "Phoenic!!" for Attack. The thing's like blitz facing backward. I talked to so many people in the first couple days who were freaking out about Thief Phoenic on an attacker. IMO it's shaped up to be one of the most prevalent Attack wheels in the format.
Hm, I might give balro ltac a shot if I get time today. I dunno about shinobi on it though, I don't have one but it looks about the same as samurai, which blocks most of the contact points.

Mm, I think Bahamdia is also a little better with Dark Knight but we'll find out later today haha.

If you look closer at phoenic it's nowhere near as focussed as a backward blitz, but yeah, the thing is awesome.
Batch Attack Testing: Chrome Wheels Part 2: Left Spin

Did ten rounds of each in the order listed worked backwards retesting anything that got at least 40%. If anything that scored under that actually looked like it had potential I would've continued them too, but the only one to score under that, Goreim, wasn't managing to budge libra significantly so I got lazy and left it at ten. Benchmark with Gravity was the last thing I did, all 20 rounds after finishing everything else.

Again, the opponent is MF-H Libra SW145CS with SW145 in defense mode – I do have another R145 now and SW145 isn't any less aggro than GB145 now which was the reason I used it in the first place, but I wanted to try and keep things the same as the previous batch.

Libra started getting real aggro during the Ifraid tests, so while I launched at an angle to stop it tornado stalling immediately, it was counterattacking a lot more during the second set of tests for each Beyblade (and the entirety of the Gravity benchmark), which generally makes it harder for ZG wheels to deal with (especially with Dark Knight, which is a little light for their aggressive shapes).

Libra was launched at full strength as all of these setups struggle more with recoil than any lack of power – tl;dr don't weak launch against chrome wheel attack ok? Beylauncher L/R used for libra and a beylauncher L for the opponents. R145 is oriented with a wing under the hole in the crystal wheel of each beyblade, etc etc.

The results were kinda disappointing, if you want to save yourself reading it all, click this spoiler (Click to View)


The Tests

Benchmark: MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK, Counter) R145R2F (Left Spin)
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 0/20 = 0%
Gravity: 20/20 = 100% (All KO)
To be fair, this is a very gravity friendly matchup – Libra wasn't weak launched in keeping with the other tests, and gravity can get under it to hit its recoily underside, and left spin gravity is pretty forgiving. In the round that ended in both stopping at the same time, gravity spent the entire match bouncing libra off walls so libra didn't manage to steal back enough spin before falling over to manage more than a draw. Obviously luck in terms of libra not getting wall saves helped as that usually results in attack types losing at least one match against any given opponent over 20 rounds, but Gravity can KO it at any point where gravity is still moving if libra is close enough to an exit so that's part of it too.

MSF-H Dark Knight Balro R145R2F
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 9/20 = 45% (6KO, 3OS)
Balro: 11/20 = 55% (All KO)
Balro has recoil trouble with Dark Knight. I assume this is because DK is quite light, as the contact points in left look better. Might play around with it as its balance isn't bad in Chrome Up as TBD said (it also did pretty well on LTAC but I didn't have a chance to formally test it today, maybe tomorrow).
EDIT: In more recent informal testing, this setup seems to work better than these results suggest (it absolutely destroys Earth, too). As such, I'd suggest not discounting it based on these results.

MSF-H Dark Knight Killerken R145R2F
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 10/20 = 50% (5KO, 5OS)
Killerken: 10/20 = 50% (All KO)
As long as you don't weak launch against it, Killerken isn't a major threat in left spin as its contact points aren't really made for it and it has a bit of rotational recoil. If you do weak launch against it, it will probably wreck you, so uh don't do that I guess.

MSF-H Dark Knight Dragooon R145R2F
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 11/20 = 55% (8KO, 3OS)
Dragooon: 9/20 = 45% (All KO)
So uh Dragooon has a lot of recoil in left spin crystal up. It can also hit quite hard, and perhaps could've done slightly better than this but whatever.

MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang R145R2F
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 5/20 = 25% (KO, OS)
Wyvang: 15/20 = 75% (All KO)
Phoenic may have shown it up in right spin but now Wyvang reveals that it is in fact not right handed!
Say hello to what is IMO another of the best Zero G Wheel Setups for Limited Format Attack. Not only is Wyvang its usual threatening self, but Dark Knight wreaks havoc on taller opponents, sending them flying in ways that make me worry about my windows when I eventually test this properly.
It does have some trouble with Bakushin LTDC, R145 with sharp banking and a strong launch gives you a shot at KOing it using Wyvang's underside without exposing the recoil-prone chin as well as providing better stamina/less hopping than GB145/H145. H145 can be used, but it does expose the chin and I'm not keen on trading off more weight after already swapping 2g for left spin, basically it strikes me as a risky proposition.

MSF-H Dark Knight Phoenic R145R2F
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 9/20 = 45% (6KO, 3OS)
Phoenic: 11/20 = 55% (All KO)
Phoenic is better in right, but it's not too awful in left, though it does have fairly severe recoil. I used R145 as I didn't find I was having as much trouble against bakushin as in right.

MSF-H Dark Knight Bahamdia R145R2F
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 11/20 = 55% (8KO, 3OS)
Bahamdia: 9/20 = 45% (All KO)
Bahamdia was really hurt by the increase in aggression from Libra in the second set of ten rounds, with its winrate being a mere 30% vs 60% in the first set of tests. I honestly preferred it in left from past experience with it, but maybe I was wrong. It's still a huge pain in the rear to use, and still wanders out of the stadium for no reason every so often. Very disappointing, really.

MSF-H Dark Knight Saramanda R145R2F
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 12/20 = 60% (4KO, 8OS)
Saramanda: 8/20 = 40% (All KO)
Saramanda also got wrecked in the second set of ten after having netted 60% in the first ten. I suspect this is due to its thin contact points wearing down really fast, combined with the increased aggression from Libra. In the first ten rounds its slight hopping seemed to help it KO later in the game, and perhaps a mint one might be okay for a few matches as an attack part but eh.

MSF-H Dark Knight Goreim R145R2F
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 7/10 = 70% (4KO, 3OS)
Goreim: 3/10 = 30% (All KO)
DK Goreim is just a bit too light to budge Libra with any reliability. Can do another ten rounds on request but I don't think it's worth the time.

MSF-H Dark Knight Ifraid R145R2F
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Libra: 11/20 = 55% (6KO, 5OS)
Ifraid: 9/20 = 45% (All KO)
Ifraid isn't totally awful in left. Not amazing either, but you could use it to KO stamina and stuff. Seemed like it should've got more than 5% higher than in right but perhaps my expectations were low after everything not called wyvang sucking.


Okay so there we go. I was kinda worn out after two days of fairly heavy testing so I stopped there and didn't redo the bahamdia tests from yesterday (it's such a demanding wheel to use that I couldn't face more than the 20 rounds I'd already done.
Shame only wyvang did any good, but it is worth remembering that Dark Knight is much more effective for attacking taller opponents than other Crystal Wheels (tests coming soon, I promise), so while these combos don't work so well against same spin, they will usually do better against tall opponents than their right spin counterparts. Also I imagine some of the chrome wheels I don't have would do well in left (Dark Knight Gryph is probably worth testing).
WYYYYYYYVVVVVAAAAANNNNNGGGGGG!!!!!!

Whoo! Grin

Dose Bahamdia results... Glad you got numbers like that too. XD I was trying to recreate MSF-M Bahamdia Dragooon BD145R2F for limited format the other day, and it wasn't working at all. :\

Aside from that, all your tests confirm my experiences from what I can see. Dark Knight Attack didn't make a good first impression on me.
Yeah, torn between DK Wyvang and Thief Phoenic though, and the fact they got dead equal numbers is really not helping. Might have to do more tests with both but I want to test some more out there or pointless but interesting stuff tomorrow I think (I'm thinking "Rock Discussion" and some other things), taking a break per se.

Bahamdia seems to be a case where it looks like it's doing a lot better than the numbers say it is - which always mean big disappointments for me. It's got so much power but it just can't be tapped into properly without exploding in your face. Bah.

Yeah I was pretty disappointed by DK today, but as I said it is way better than other crystal wheels against tall opponents, obviously the left spin helps but the design has a tonne of smash anyway, so that's some compensation for the lower numbers vs same height I guess. Was really hoping to find a couple more legitimately good chrome wheels though. Only makes the fact I won't have Begirados, Pegasis, Girago and Gargole any time in the foreseeable future even more annoying as at least three of those are aggressive haha.
(Jan. 10, 2014  9:51 PM)th!nk Wrote: Yeah, torn between DK Wyvang and Thief Phoenic though, and the fact they got dead equal numbers is really not helping. Might have to do more tests with both but I want to test some more out there or pointless but interesting stuff tomorrow I think (I'm thinking "Rock Discussion" and some other things), taking a break per se.

Bahamdia seems to be a case where it looks like it's doing a lot better than the numbers say it is - which always mean big disappointments for me. It's got so much power but it just can't be tapped into properly without exploding in your face. Bah.

Yeah I was pretty disappointed by DK today, but as I said it is way better than other crystal wheels against tall opponents, obviously the left spin helps but the design has a tonne of smash anyway, so that's some compensation for the lower numbers vs same height I guess. Was really hoping to find a couple more legitimately good chrome wheels though. Only makes the fact I won't have Begirados, Pegasis, Girago and Gargole any time in the foreseeable future even more annoying as at least three of those are aggressive haha.

Oh my goodness... Don't waste your money on Pegasis. I tested it a bunch the other day, and it's pretty much carp. XD
Why is Hell even banned? It isn't that useful...
It's incredibly useful when you have no Synchromes or 4D metal wheels to work with...

It has extreme versatility in Attack, Stamina, and Balance. Even sometimes defense.
(Jan. 14, 2014  11:25 PM)"Kira Wrote: It's incredibly useful when you have no Synchromes or 4D metal wheels to work with...

It has extreme versatility in Attack, Stamina, and Balance. Even sometimes defense.

Not with BD145 banned. It has pretty good attack, and horrible everything else pretty much.
(Jan. 14, 2014  11:42 PM)Stamina. Wrote:
(Jan. 14, 2014  11:25 PM)"Kira Wrote: It's incredibly useful when you have no Synchromes or 4D metal wheels to work with...

It has extreme versatility in Attack, Stamina, and Balance. Even sometimes defense.

Not with BD145 banned. It has pretty good attack, and horrible everything else pretty much.
ehhh, hades 230CS says hi Wink

Plus it's kinda heavy for this format.
(Jan. 14, 2014  11:21 PM)Stamina. Wrote: Why is Hell even banned? It isn't that useful...
Before making statements that are like this maybe you should try it against the other beys allowed in this format. Its attack power is crazy, can put a MF-H and an 85RF on it and dominate.
You're forgetting one key custom...

Hell Kerbecs 230CS. Wink
(Jan. 14, 2014  11:46 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: You're forgetting one key custom...

Hell Kerbecs 230CS. Wink

What about it? I've tested it and it isn't that great... I can KO with Ray Kerbecs CH145 R2F...
(Jan. 14, 2014  11:51 PM)Stamina. Wrote:
(Jan. 14, 2014  11:46 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: You're forgetting one key custom...

Hell Kerbecs 230CS. Wink

What about it? I've tested it and it isn't that great... I can KO with Ray Kerbecs CH145 R2F...

In that case, formal testing would be nice. It was banned by the advanced members for good reasons, and none of them think introducing it would be healthy for the format.
If you can, could you post a video? I doubt it. Hell (from my testing) is waaaaaay to strong for this format. I'll post tests gor you.
(Jan. 14, 2014  11:56 PM)" L Wrote: If you can, could you post a video? I doubt it. Hell (from my testing) is waaaaaay to strong for this format. I'll post tests gor you.

Well I tested them back in November, I do not currently have them with me. I plan on ordering a BB-96 tomorrow and going to get them from my Mothers house. I should have a discussion thread up once I get the BB-96 in the mail.
(Jan. 14, 2014  11:59 PM)Stamina. Wrote:
(Jan. 14, 2014  11:56 PM)" L Wrote: If you can, could you post a video? I doubt it. Hell (from my testing) is waaaaaay to strong for this format. I'll post tests gor you.

Well I tested them back in November, I do not currently have them with me. I plan on ordering a BB-96 tomorrow and going to get them from my Mothers house. I should have a discussion thread up once I get the BB-96 in the mail.

Pegasis, Libra and Burn already have discussion threads, so really don't think another one is necessary...
I think he means he is gonna test Hell against stuff from the Deck set. Could be wrong though...
I can't seem to find any A- or AA- code on my Metal Fury Scythe Wheel. I've looked pretty hard, but to no avail. Am I driving myself crazy looking for a code on a variant without any such markings? Or is it just very well hidden? xD
It's underneath the scythe protrusions. It's quite small, you might need a flashlight.
(Jan. 15, 2014  1:01 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: I think he means he is gonna test Hell against stuff from the Deck set. Could be wrong though...

Yes, I did mean from the set to go against hell... Just Libra and possibly pegasis for attack vs attack
(Jan. 15, 2014  2:19 AM)Tri Wrote: It's underneath the scythe protrusions. It's quite small, you might need a flashlight.

Thanks, but I found it (just not there...?)

Oh that's my bad, I didn't mean to say that. I just kinda forgot, that's where mine and everyone else's is also. Sorry about that!