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MFB: Limited :: Primer, Random Thoughts, and Q&A Thread!

Jan. 15, 2014  2:46 AM
 
Okay, so the codes are always in the same location as the one circled in my picture?
Jan. 15, 2014  2:47 AM
 
Yeah, sorry for the confusion.
Jan. 15, 2014  5:22 PM
 
Yeah I gave Hell another shot yesterday, if you choose the right combo it can KO literally the whole format. Hell Aquario H145RF/R2F/LRF and MF Hell Kerbecs CH120RF basically wreck the thing. MF-H Hell Kerbecs 230CS/RSF are also strong. As I said in the banlist discussion I'll actually have reasons and stuff up realllllly soon haha, I just slept for like 18 hours so that's why it's not done yet.

Though tbh Hell is probably less damaging for the format than metal fury scythe if only because it's aggressive rather than defensive lol.
Jan. 15, 2014  6:49 PM
 
Fake tests (Click to View)
WBO Committee: It was recently brought to our attention that all tests by Crescent in this topic are fabricated. We urge you to forget their results and that someone trustworthy conduct the actual tests for the sake of this metagame.
Jan. 15, 2014  6:51 PM
 
FWIW MF-H Hell Kerbecs R145RF is actually really tame for a hell combo. Like most edge-focussed wheels it's very picky about what you stick on it. I was playing around with it yesterday and was like "huh why did we ban this again" and then I swapped over to Hell Aquario H145LRF - a combo which was able to KO MF-H Basalt Aquario BD145CS more often than not back in the day (pain to use and a little risky back then, but you can imagine what it does to most limited format defense types lol). MF Hell Kerbecs CH120RF was outspinning Bakushin LTDC like Scythe does too haha, so it's very similar.


Tho you know TBH with Scythe running around right now the format would be healthier with hell too lol, especially if Gravity is banned and Scythe isn't or something crazy like that (seeing as gravity is the only attack wheel I have capable of doing anything to both Scythe and Bakushin defense).
Jan. 20, 2014  3:33 PM
 
A couple of random thoughts-

In my pre-WBO days (woo nostalgia time) I discovered something interesting that is mildly applicable to Limited.

Shockingly, Thermal isn't useless. Thermal, from my experience, beats Earth-based customs easily. Somehow, Thermal's ability to destabilize opponents, combined with its shape, somehow manages to OS Earth combos quite consistently. Again, recalling from that time, my custom Thermal Pisces 100HF managed to beat Earth Virgo SW145SD every time they battled. It defies all logic; there is no way an outclassed Stamina part like Thermal should be able to beat a top-tier Stamina part with a D-series tip. Of course, Thermal is almost completely useless against anything BUT Earth, though it is rather interesting that it is so effective against that wheel.


BasaltSpam (my younger brother) bought a BB-96 a while ago. Yesterday, I was looking at mold numbers on our MWs and, to my surprise, his Libra was lettered "A2". Is it possible that somehow he got a different variant of Mold 3? His Libra weighs 41.8g to my 42.3g "A3", and Beywiki gives a weight of about 42.06g, so I assume that the weight difference is within normal variance from the average. I might test it to see if it's any better for Stamina; it might be weighted differently.
Jan. 20, 2014  4:40 PM
 
That's a matter of height matchups and also a bad track on Earth. Thermal did see use as a wheel for so called "destabilizers" (precursors to ltsc) though flame was generally better. Thermal is generally known as a passable stamina wheel, however I struggle to get thermal W145WD to outspin Scythe GB145RSF (though I've not tested it formally so there's a slight possibility that isn't right I guess) so with scythe around it's taken a big hit. But generally Thermal is known as a tier 2 stamina wheel, though flame is generally superior. A couple of people had Thermal outspin their Earths fairly reliably as I recall it, but myself and a number of others couldn't reproduce those results (and it clashed with past testing, too). Never worked out why that was though it is possible thermal's shape could have had *something* to do with it I guess.

No, as I mentioned in the Scythe topic seeing as I knew this would come up, those molding numbers themselves are usually the only significant difference between two wheels and they don't relate to actual mold changes where they stop using one and start using another (usually for reinforcement), just different casts using what is generally the same mold - eg we had A1 and A2 Mold 1 Earths and A1 and A2 Mold 2 Earths or something along those lines back in the day, I'm pretty sure it's just done to keep track of products for QC or something similar to that.
In the case of Scythe, it does seem something has happened with one of the molds which almost certainly means the AA2 ones are slightly more edge-distributed (scythe is very edge-distributed anyway, so small changes in overall distribution can have fairly large consequences to performance, eg using an MF-H on it instead of an MF cuts the attack noticeably, at least on mine - so this means it's going to be more effected than most wheels). This is a very rare thing and even between identical molds there are slight variations in weight of individual wheels anyway. There are a lot of factors affecting stamina, for example I find worn basalt and earth MW's tend to outspin mint/near mint ones, however most of these things are completely eclipsed by launch strength in a tournament situation.

We really need separate terms for the two senses of mold, haha. Mold Difference and Mold Change cover Scythe and Earth things respectively but AA1 and AA2 vs Mold 1 and Mold 2 lack distinct terms. Bah.
Jan. 20, 2014  6:41 PM
 
I might just test Thermal for teh lols at some point; I was actually working on a destabilizer combo using Thermal a few days ago, but dropped it in favor of a Attack combo I'm working on. OSing Earth combos is quite a niche ability, so I was hoping I could come up with something that's effective against other opponents. The problem with almost all of the testing I do, whether formal or informal, is that Libra-based combos give a lot of my customs trouble; Libra's underside is kind of smash-y and it tends to do bad things to destabilizers and LTACs.

EDIT:
An update on Jade testing-
I keep having problems with testing Jade; it is becoming more and more evident that Jade absolutely needs TH170 to work well, and I don't have that part. 160, previously my favorite height, is just a hair too short to properly expose Jade's contact points against Libra 145__RB. Given the added bonus of height versatility, I think that TH170 is the way to go for further tests. I have been looking at Wolf as a CW choice; Wolf's heads are aligned quite well with Jade's contact points.
Jan. 21, 2014  11:32 AM
 
Played around with thermal as an attack wheel, didn't do awful initially but as I sat down and did more tests it didn't work out at all. It's a lightweight part and its shape means clear wheels get in the way super easy and even when they don't it doesn't do much. If anything it'd be absolutely reliant on height matchups to KO opponents and while an interesting enough concept, Burn amongst others are probably going to do almost everything better in the end. Still, all testing is good testing.

Could still test it in theory a little against something like MF-H Libra S130RB. Wouldn't be super useful but it would at least be a start on looking into whether the concept is worthwhile at all. CW wise, I'd still stick with aquario, as with force smash in MFB every bit of weight is gonna count (though FWIW I played around with MF-H Libra A230RF yesterday, A230 being the heaviest track in limited, and yeah, it's much too tall, and TH170 is still decently heavy anyway).
Still, straight attack/anti-attack/defense testing with the wheel is probably going to be more important as for various reasons (recoil, inefficiency, general fact those contact point shapes were tbh too recoil-prone in plastics) I don't think Force Smash will work out too amazingly. Could be 100% wrong on that, but yeah. MF-H Libra TH170/230CS kinda force smashes stuff like plastics force smash combos do (small, destabilizing hits and victory by outspin), but only stamina types really and other wheels (burn, scythe) manage the same outspins without doing that nearly as much.
Jan. 22, 2014  8:37 AM
 
Some notes just from playing around today/recently, not all 100% related to limited but nonetheless don't feel like making two separate posts for it:

Killerken's stamina isn't totally awful on 230 in chrome up so it could have use there defensively, however I'm not sure if there are any crystal wheels that are at all appropriately shaped for taking hits - Samurai isn't always bad but sometimes it gets rocketed out of the stadium, and Killerken isn't exactly super heavy. Still, may be worth looking into, and trying Genbull or something in this setup in case it too is balanced, though on the whole LTDC aren't a really great type without great stamina to back them up and give them balance properties.

Earth seems to suffer from the same thing Flame does with regards to wildly varying weights. Most are around the same as the lighter flames I have - 32.3g or thereabouts, but the one I bought in Earth Virgo GB145BS (RBV4 Prize) is ~32.94g (from memory, weights are in the google docs spreadsheet I posted a while back), close to my heaviest Flame. Usually I'd be happy about this, I guess I kinda am, but the whole reason I bought it was so that I'd have another for stamina mirror matches, and that big a weight difference is probably not going to come without some small effect.

SonoKong's Rock, like their Galaxy and Gravity, is thinned out from the original, being significantly lighter as a result (forget the exact weights but they're in my weights doc I've posted a few times - will add a link to my sig soon).
The Giraffe that came with it is a little longer than the Takara one and therefore doesn't actually sit on Earth and Burn.

What I do wonder though, is seeing as their Grand Ketos releases which were the primary method of obtaining Grand before Hasbro released were from this same era where they were cutting back weights (which had stopped by the Maximum Series), and according to beywiki is around the same mark as the wheels whose weights were cut (~29g), is whether that is actually an accurate weight for the Takara version (and the Hasbro version, seeing as Hasbro don't use SonoKong molds) - basically, was the one weighed a Takara one, and if not (or really, either way) could someone with a Takara or Hasbro Grand weigh theirs and see?

And lastly, after oiling them up, ZG Compact Launchers seem capable of launching just as hard as a beylauncher can before it skips (I've not owned one that doesn't), though it does take more effort to do so and there's the "kick" you have to get used to too (still, coming back from plastics I appreciate the increased control I feel I get from ripcord launchers). The gear in SonoKong ones is poorly molded and very prone to skipping however, and also if you don't oil them right away, the shaft inside grinds away at one side of the hole, making them skip. Still, seeing as my last L/R's handle came off a few days after I started using a ZGCL for stuff, I'm pretty glad to have stumbled on that (I also LOVE how the ZGCL's are designed - just the extra touch of the lower friction plastic on the ripcord entry point is a nice touch with regards to friction etc). Now I have a couple (had to transplant the lower chassis of my sonokong one onto my second takara one as the original was worn) I will probably stick to using those for testing rather than trying to maintain my grip on a tiny nylon knot with my L/R. Still used to beylauncher L's though, of which I have a couple, so for left spin stuff will probably stick to them. Also tried oiling my L3R as it's the same system, however for whatever reason mine continues to spin after launch so that messes with things quite a bit.
Not sure whether this would all be the same with the added weight of Synchromes etc, perhaps ZGCL's could handle it better as they rarely skip but I'd worry about the increased wear etc - you'd want to be really careful to make sure you kept it all well oiled and so on.

ZG Light Launchers should actually be even more powerful, as the gear ratio at the 90 degree bend isn't 1:1 (I forget the exact ratio but it increases power). However, they are not very well made (lots of friction between the ripcord and the slot etc etc) and even with oiling they skip horrendously, so that isn't really useful.

EDIT: Played around with Dark Knight Balro more today, and it did a lot better than my tests suggested. Initially I was trying to find a way to capitalize on Balro's lategame smash with FGrin and RSF and so on but in the end while I had mild success with them they just didn't cut it against Earth RSF, but I went back and tried attack and it was much more impressive than what I remembered. Still, nothing on Lightning.
Jan. 24, 2014  7:05 PM
 
I was reading the official ban list discussion, and questions came up about using tournament illegal parts in testing. The point was raised that such testing could cause confusion about the ban list itself, causing readers to assume that said parts are actually legal.

I have a proposal that I think will work pretty well in terms of avoiding confusion, and we can use it for a long time to come, since we'll most likely be testing illegal parts relatively frequently when updating the ban list


When posting test results, rather than like this:

MF-H Gravity Perseus R145R2F vs. MF-H Libra BD145RDF
Libra launched first on all launches. Perseus in left spin.
Perseus: wins, 6/20 (All KO)
Libra: wins, 14/20 (12 OS, 2 KO)
MF-H Gravity Perseus R145R2F win rate: 30%

We post them like this:

MF-H Gravity Perseus R145R2F vs. MF-H Libra BD145RDF
Libra launched first on all launches. Perseus in left spin.
Perseus: wins, 6/20 (All KO)
Libra: wins, 14/20 (12 OS, 2 KO)
MF-H Gravity Perseus R145R2F win rate: 30%

NOTE: These test results are examples. They are not actually valid.

Highlighting the illegal part(s) we're testing in red. That way, it will be obvious that those parts are illegal, while we can still outline which of the other parts in the combination are legal. The red color will also serve as a sort of beacon for people skimming results that that set of tests contains illegal parts. Then, if they want to, they can just skip over it without having to stop and read it to make sure.

Just thought it might help avoid confusion, since the subforum will likely be cluttered with testing of illegal parts. This way we can point them out and tell them apart from tournament valid testing easily.
Jan. 24, 2014  7:52 PM
 
(Jan. 24, 2014  7:05 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: I was reading the official ban list discussion, and questions came up about using tournament illegal parts in testing. The point was raised that such testing could cause confusion about the ban list itself, causing readers to assume that said parts are actually legal.

I have a proposal that I think will work pretty well in terms of avoiding confusion, and we can use it for a long time to come, since we'll most likely be testing illegal parts relatively frequently when updating the ban list


When posting test results, rather than like this:

MF-H Gravity Perseus R145R2F vs. MF-H Libra BD145RDF
Libra launched first on all launches. Perseus in left spin.
Perseus: wins, 6/20 (All KO)
Libra: wins, 14/20 (12 OS, 2 KO)
MF-H Gravity Perseus R145R2F win rate: 30%

We post them like this:

MF-H Gravity Perseus R145R2F vs. MF-H Libra BD145RDF
Libra launched first on all launches. Perseus in left spin.
Perseus: wins, 6/20 (All KO)
Libra: wins, 14/20 (12 OS, 2 KO)
MF-H Gravity Perseus R145R2F win rate: 30%

NOTE: These test results are examples. They are not actually valid.

Highlighting the illegal part(s) we're testing in red. That way, it will be obvious that those parts are illegal, while we can still outline which of the other parts in the combination are legal. The red color will also serve as a sort of beacon for people skimming results that that set of tests contains illegal parts. Then, if they want to, they can just skip over it without having to stop and read it to make sure.

Just thought it might help avoid confusion, since the subforum will likely be cluttered with testing of illegal parts. This way we can point them out and tell them apart from tournament valid testing easily.

This is a fantastic idea!! I went on ahead and added it to the forum rules/guidelines sticky thing:

http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MFB-Limi...NEW-THREAD
Feb. 02, 2014  1:55 PM
 
So, something came to my mind:

"Now that Limited is announced and once-obsolete parts (Burn, Screw, Vulcan, Earth, etc) are now usable in Limited, does anyone think the beywiki needs updating?"
___________________________________________________________________________________________
@TBD: Your post was 1 week old, but how do you exactly put the red color on these test results?

@th!nk: I own loads of ZG Compact launchers and at least oneZG Light Launcher. ZG Light Launchers skip a lot (I own one, but it only saw a few uses before becoming skippy) so I don't use them at all. As for ZG Compact Launchers, my hand is so big i have to use a grip to stop it scratching my hand, but they don't skip that much, just make sure the ripcord is straight.

Sorry for responding to old posts, but i would like to do some input on thoughts of other more advanced members to learn more.
Feb. 02, 2014  2:28 PM
 
Yeah, things discovered etc in Limited will be incorporated into BeyWiki, though maybe bar a few things it seems a little early to start just yet. I'll be around to help people out with said updates if needed, once I'm less busy.

For Red Text, open the full reply page (Blue "Post Reply" button with Leone logo in the background, or "Preview Post" in the quick reply box), select the text you want to be red, then click the arrow next to the "A" button (which is next to the text size box) and click on Red. Or use this, same thing:
Code:
[color=#FF0000]TEXT GOES HERE.[/color]
Which gives
TEXT GOES HERE.

As for holding launchers, it must be that some people grip them differently, as my hands are far from small and I find them very comfortable - perhaps because I'm used to using the tiny plastics EZShooters haha.


Asking questions is good, just try to make sure they've not been answered already. We all have to learn somehow, haha, and you should've seen how many PM's I sent asking questions of people whose opinions I trust when I was getting back into MFB for limited, haha.
Feb. 14, 2014  5:32 AM
 
Can anyone do some tests for the 4D L-Drago family?

I think Destroy deserves an unban, but not sure for Guardian.
Because I lack most of the tracks nowadays for defense and I don't own a Libra at the moment, so if anyone owns a good collection of these, please do me a favor.
Feb. 14, 2014  5:37 AM
 
Guardian is blatantly broken, if you read my explanations of why each 4D wheel is banned.
Destroy might not be broken but the last thing we need right now is to give F230 another boost - it wouldn't be healthy for the format.
Feb. 14, 2014  5:42 AM
 
(Feb. 14, 2014  5:32 AM)天翔翼 TenshouYoku Wrote: Can anyone do some tests for the 4D L-Drago family?

I think Destroy deserves an unban, but not sure for Guardian.
Because I lack most of the tracks nowadays for defense and I don't own a Libra at the moment, so if anyone owns a good collection of these, please do me a favor.

I'm not really for unbanning LDD. Like someone (Th!nk?) said, it would be troublesome on F230(G)CF (Even though I dislike LDG and LDD on anything above 145.) and probably CH120/T125/D125(G)CF, but it's always good to prove it. Not to mention, it has some pretty Carpin' good ATK compared to limited Wheels.

EDIT: Stop beating me XD!!!
Feb. 14, 2014  2:43 PM
 
I know we're in no big rush, but I'd like to see this in Ingulit thread for testing stuff: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MFB-Limi...NEW-THREAD

Quote::ATTACK:


MSF-H Theif Phoenic R145/H145 R2F (Crystal Up Mode)

MSF-H Dark Knight/Gladiator/Samura/Gryph Wyvang CH120/GB145/H145/R145/90/85 RF/R2F/LRF (Crystal Up Mode)

MF-H Omega Uranus/Unicorno/Horogium 90/R145/CH120 R2F/RF/LRF

MF/MF-H Beat Byxis/Lynx/ 90/CH120/GB145/H145 RF/R2F/LRF

MF/MF-H Cosmic Kerbecs/Unicorno II CH120/R145/TH170 RF/R2F/LRF

MF/MF-H Lightning L-Drago 85/90/CH120/H145/R145 RF/R2F/LRF

MF/MF-H Pegasis 85/CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF

Quote:GrinEFENSE:


MF-H Bakushin Leone 90 RSF/RF/RB

MF-H Scythe Aquario GB145/85/90 RSF/RB

MF-H Earth Bull/Aquario/Sagittario II/Hades/Cygnus 85/GB145/R145/TH170/230 RSF/RB

MF-H Libra 90/85/GB145 RSF/RB

Quote:ConfusedTAMINA:


Scythe Cancer/Cygnus/Hades W145/TH170 EWD/WD/SD

Scythe Cancer/Cygnus/Hades TH170/230 D/WD/SD

Earth Cancer/Cygnus/Hades 85/90/W145 EWD/WD/D/SD

Burn Bull/Cancer/Cygnus/Hades 85/90/W145 EWD/WD/D/SD

Duo Cancer/Cygnus/Hades W145/TH170 EWD/WD/SD

Duo Cancer/Cygnus/Hades TH170/230 D/WD/SD

Quote::BALANCE:


MF Duo Cancer/Cygnus/Hades 230 MB

MF Virgo 230 MB

(MF-L/M) Burn Aquario F230CS


Quote:ConfusedPIN STEALERS:


Meteo L-Drago CH120 EWD

Meteo L-Drago B: D

Meteo L-Drago F230CF/GCF

Quote::ANTI-ATTACK:


MF(-H) Scythe Pegasis II CH120RF

MF-H Libra CH120/GB145/R145/85 RF
Feb. 14, 2014  2:57 PM
 
Eh some of those things don't have enough testing etc to be used for benchmarking/testing against tbh, that thread does need an update but I think your lists need a trim and some changes here and there and I don't really have the time to be more specific right now sorry Unhappy
Feb. 14, 2014  3:00 PM
 
Trust me I've tested them all, haha. I just can't find the time to post them. I will admit however, there could be a few things that needs changed. I just wanted to post to give you guys an idea (you get what I mean?)

Don't worry, I'll edit it soon. 'Cause to be honest too, I don't really have that much time, haah.
Feb. 14, 2014  3:07 PM
 
Aye, but the contents of that list need to be things that are fairly widely available/used, things that people are familiar with etc, which means other people have to have tested them or whatever too. Plus there are a few redundant things on there like Pegasis 90RF (pretty much always inferior to CH120 and even S130, bar perhaps against Libra 85RF maybe?)
Feb. 14, 2014  6:16 PM
 
A mod can edit it, no? Anyways, you get your wish Th!nk, I compiled a list (just Edited The Alchemist's list a whole lot).
is it not suitable?

[
Spoiler (Click to View)
Objections?
Feb. 14, 2014  7:42 PM
 
Adding Gravity would be a bit confusing for less active/members who wouldn't regularly check the ban list.

They may see Gravity and assume they can use it.

Tongue_out
Feb. 14, 2014  7:43 PM
 
(Feb. 14, 2014  7:42 PM)Leone19 Wrote: Adding Gravity would be a bit confusing for less active/members who wouldn't regularly check the ban list.

They may see Gravity and assume they can use it.

:P

That's why we're supposed to mark it in red.
Feb. 14, 2014  7:45 PM
 
(Feb. 14, 2014  7:43 PM)DRAGON KING Wrote:
(Feb. 14, 2014  7:42 PM)Leone19 Wrote: Adding Gravity would be a bit confusing for less active/members who wouldn't regularly check the ban list.

They may see Gravity and assume they can use it.

Tongue_out

That's why we're supposed to mark it in red.

Ah, missed that. Sorry.

One other thing, as far as R145 on Libra, has it been tested?
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