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MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion

Jan. 31, 2015  6:21 AM
 
I tried DK Girago TR145EWD several months ago, and it was actually pretty darn good (better than Meteo IIRC).
Jan. 31, 2015  3:35 PM
 
(Jan. 31, 2015  3:50 AM)loyd87 Wrote: (MSF/L)ronin zirago/killerken/genbull B: D chrystal up as good spin steal
Last time I tried this combo it was way to light and got banged around the stadium so easily even by non attack types. I didn't like it at all.
Jan. 31, 2015  3:45 PM
 
Hum yeah, but, this combo can face F230(G)CF combinations without losing... I think it definetly need more official testings.
Jan. 31, 2015  4:03 PM
 
(Jan. 31, 2015  3:45 PM)|BeyBouncer| Wrote: Hum yeah, but, this combo can face F230(G)CF combinations without losing... I think it definetly need more official testings.

Probably does well against Meteo F230 since it's a Left-Spin Stamina type. Any same spin Stamina against F230 will win, since there is no "spin to steal".
Jan. 31, 2015  6:35 PM
 
Even then, I personally think F230 customs in limited are a lot more controllable/easy to defeat even with opposite spin stamina beys. They just are not as much of a threat compared to standard and Zero G. Burn is like my favorite stamina wheel because of this since it does the best job at it.
Jan. 31, 2015  6:43 PM
 
(Jan. 31, 2015  6:35 PM)Tri Wrote: Even then, I personally think F230 customs in limited are a lot more controllable/easy to defeat even with opposite spin stamina beys. They just are not as much of a threat compared to standard and Zero G.

I think it's a bit of a challenge with opposite spin Stamina winning against opposite spin F230 in Limited, from my experience.

I mean, it all depends on how it's launched and what setup is used, really. An example is when I played against Kei at GBT2 last year, he used Wyvang R145(?) RSF and I used Libra F230 CF. I won by OS, mainly because of the weight and the way it moved around, compared to Kei's. However, in another battle, I believe Dark won with Libra BGrin against Meteo F230, yet the battles were very close, from what I saw- Meteo could have taken it, if it only rotated a second or so longer. It all depends on some close calls.

Alright, I realize most of that was rambling, haha, but main point- most battles in Limited of opposite spin Stamina and opposite spin F230 are usually, if not always, very close to call.
Jan. 31, 2015  8:52 PM
 
The newly published top-tier list has been added to the first post of this topic, for future reference.
Jan. 31, 2015  10:16 PM
 
(Jan. 30, 2015  5:47 AM)Wombat Wrote:
(Jan. 29, 2015  11:03 PM)Honey Wrote: Not to go off-topic, but relating to Bakushin, have Bakushin RF tests actually been conducted by anyone? I believe we had Kaneki's opinion it (which shouldn't mean much because he didn't actually own the parts) and maybe some of his fakes with them that I don't know of, but, what else of it, realistically? I happen to like RF-based defense and don't see why it shouldn't be up there, but even so .. still?

I've never used Bakushin RF, but I can vouch for aggressive RSF in both testing and tournaments, so RF can't be that different. I don't personally know how strong your launch is/how aggressive your RSF is but if I have time this weekend I'll do comparative testing.
So for once I actually got around to testing something when I said I would. Who would have guessed it?

MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF vs. MF-H Omega Horuseus CH120RF
Leone: 14 wins (5 KO, 9 OS)
Horuseus: 6 wins (all KO)
Leone win rate: 70%

MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RF vs. MF-H Omega Horuseus CH120RF
Leone: 13 wins (6 KO, 7 OS)
Horuseus: 7 wins (5 KO, 2 OS)
3 ties redone
Leone win rate: 65%

So although their win rates are almost the same, RF had significantly less Stamina than RSF, hence the number of ties and the fact that Omega won by OS twice.

Statistically, it seems good enough to go on there, but I personally don't like it at all. I think RSF is better because of the extra Stamina and versatility, since it can be stationary or aggressive depending on your launch. Also, maybe it's just me, but RF didn't seem as "immovable" as RSF, almost like it had more recoil even when clashing head on with Omega.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I also went through all of the Clear Wheels I had to see if any looked like they would work on Bakushin. Aries and Pisces continue the slope quite nicely, but they're both more jagged than Leone and Pisces is more of an oval shape than a circle. I think Leone is still the best Clear Wheel for Bakushin.
Jan. 31, 2015  11:40 PM
 
Followed your suggestions, TBD. Had to use MSF-L, since my metal core broke a while back. Here's what I got:

MSF-L Thief Phoenic H145 R2F vs Earth Aquario GB145 RSF
MSF-L Thief Phoenic H145 R2F wins: 3/20 (15% win rate)
Earth Aquario GB145 RSF wins: 17/20 (85% win rate)

MF Screw Uranus H145 R2F vs Earth Aquario GB145 RSF
MF Screw Uranus H145 R2F wins: 5/20 (25% win rate)
Earth Aquario GB145 RSF wins: 15/20 (75% win rate)

MF Pegasis H145 R2F vs Earth Aquario GB145 RSF
MF Pegasis H145 R2F wins: 1/10 (10% win rate)
Earth Aquario GB145 RSF wins: 9/10 (90% win rate)

So maybe Pegasis isn't top tier material (though this probably had more to do with H145), but that's irrelevant because it doesn't make Phoenic any better. I'm not surprised by my results at all because this combination literally has no stamina and is too lightweight to have a powerful attack.
Feb. 01, 2015  3:08 AM
 
(Jan. 31, 2015  11:40 PM)The Supreme One Wrote: Followed your suggestions, TBD. Had to use MSF-L, since my metal core broke a while back. Here's what I got:

MSF-L Thief Phoenic H145 R2F vs Earth Aquario GB145 RSF
MSF-L Thief Phoenic H145 R2F wins: 3/20 (15% win rate)
Earth Aquario GB145 RSF wins: 17/20 (85% win rate)

MF Screw Uranus H145 R2F vs Earth Aquario GB145 RSF
MF Screw Uranus H145 R2F wins: 5/20 (25% win rate)
Earth Aquario GB145 RSF wins: 15/20 (75% win rate)

MF Pegasis H145 R2F vs Earth Aquario GB145 RSF
MF Pegasis H145 R2F wins: 1/10 (10% win rate)
Earth Aquario GB145 RSF wins: 9/10 (90% win rate)

So maybe Pegasis isn't top tier material (though this probably had more to do with H145), but that's irrelevant because it doesn't make Phoenic any better. I'm not surprised by my results at all because this combination literally has no stamina and is too lightweight to have a powerful attack.

Pretty much reflects my results (except Pegasus worked better for me), I'll try to formally test more and post them if I have time, but this pretty much sums up my thoughts exactly.
Feb. 01, 2015  4:07 AM
 
I think it was really just the fact that H145 is too overexposed on Pegasis that caused it to do as poorly as it did in my tests. The fact that Screw, which was dismissed competitively a while back, did significantly better than Phoenic says something about putting the latter on the list for Top Tier. And honestly, if an attack combo needs MF/MSF to perform decently, it's probably too lightweight in the first place.
Don't mean to sound negative about it, but I've been saying this all along.
Feb. 01, 2015  3:42 PM
 
Nice testing; thanks for doing that.

A few things:

1. The numbers with Screw were really kind of bizzare, but otherwise, your testing appears to show that Phoenic is comparable with Pegasis on an identical setup, which is exactly what my testing shows.

H145 actually used to be a competitive Track on Pegasis IIRC; it's not a poor choice by any stretch, and against a 145-height Defense custom, using it over R145 really doesn't impact performance much (which makes the testing kind of difficult to interperet, actually, since you only did 10 rounds with Pegasis, you didn't use MF of any kind on the Defense customs, and Pegasis usually does far better in testing than Screw, not the other way around).

Could you actually hear H145 making contact? Was Pegasis, like, dying when it did? Looking at its height, unless your R2F is new and your RSF is really, really worn, H145 shouldn't be making contact much at all.

2. Despite the fact that the results were close to what I would expect relative to one another, you really kind of need to use MSF-H; like I said before, Phoenic's contact points are pretty sharp, and that causes a lot of recoil (it causes a lot of smash as well, but there's always a trade-off), so you need all the control you can get. By using MSF-L instead of MSF-H, you're whacking 2 grams off, which is a pretty significant number (that little metal plate makes up 4-5% of the custom's total weight).

3. Phoenic does not need Stamina, especially the way this particular setup tends to KO things. It's more of a OHKO kind of custom. That said, you're right, it doesn't have exceptional Stamina for an Attack custom, but I don't think it's really that awful, and, again, with the application of the custom in mind, it really shouldn't be that much of a problem.

4. MSF-H Thief Phoenic H145R2F is not actually lightweight at all:

Weight of MF-H Lightning L-Drago R145R2F: 44.5 grams

Weight of MF-H Pegasis CH120R2F: 44.8 grams

Weight of MF-H Omega Horuseus 85R2F: 47.7 grams

Weight of MSF-H Thief Phoenic H145R2F: 45.5 grams

Weight of MSF-H Dark Knight Gryph 85R2F: 41.5 grams

Weight of MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang R145R2F: 46.9 grams

Thief Phoenic is just as heavy as the rest of them.

If I average all of those weights out (minus Phoenic's), we get: 45.08 grams, 0.42 grams lighter than Phoenic.

That said, it's actually about (or slightly above) the average weight for a competitive Attack type.

Is it really not working that well for you guys? It's doing totally awesome for me. It did really, really awesome for th!nk, too:

(Jan. 09, 2014  6:03 PM)th!nk Wrote: Tested this as part of my batch testing of chrome wheels for attack in Right Spin HERE

Spoilers: It's better than everything I have, including wyvang, in Right. I really love this combo haha.
Feb. 01, 2015  3:47 PM
 
It's kind of odd for sure that many disagree but a few are getting good results.

I think it'd be cool if maybe we got a video from the few who it worked for and a video or two from who it didn't really work out for. It'd just be pretty interesting to see if anyone was actually doing anything different from each other or that the performance, for some reason or another, just varies.

I personally did get better results with Pegasus myself, but again, I'll try to formally do 20 rounds and post those when I can. At this point, it still seems more people haven't done as well with it as the people who have, to me (especially considering how Kankei's tests were all faked).
Feb. 01, 2015  7:09 PM
 
Again, I think we need to stop focusing on Phoenic in comparison to Pegasis and instead look at it by itself.

If you average out the Top Tier combos that you weighed, they're 45.67 grams, which is heavier than Phoenic, so that doesn't prove much.

I can do 10 more tests for Pegasis with video later; for the record, my RSF is fairly worn down and my R2F is just a little worn past prime.
Feb. 01, 2015  8:33 PM
 
All the combinations I listed are top-tier (except for Phoenic, but I didn't include its weight in the average). I just re-did the math, and I got 45.08 g again.
Feb. 03, 2015  3:22 AM
 
TheBlackDragon Wrote:3. You didn't use MSF-H, which is extremely, extremely critical for the custom to work. Being a Zero-G Wheel, Phoenic is on the lighter side, and its contact point are pretty enormous and can cause a lot of recoil. This was probably the biggest problem.

Here are some comparison testings with the MSF-H and without it I did. (Click to View)

Definitely not much of a change in terms of results between the two, nor are they still all that fancy. Out of curiosity, I don't mean to come off sounding rude, TBD, but do you have any comparison testings of your own to back it up?

What I did notice, though, was that Phoenic with the MSF-H had a lot less recoil, so you're definitely right on that.

By the way, I'll try to post video comes the weekend, if you'd guys like.
Feb. 03, 2015  3:26 AM
 
(Feb. 03, 2015  3:22 AM)Honey Wrote:
TheBlackDragon Wrote:3. You didn't use MSF-H, which is extremely, extremely critical for the custom to work. Being a Zero-G Wheel, Phoenic is on the lighter side, and its contact point are pretty enormous and can cause a lot of recoil. This was probably the biggest problem.

Here are some comparison testings with the MSF-H and without it I did. (Click to View)

Definitely not much of a change in terms of results between the two, nor are they still all that fancy. Out of curiosity, I don't mean to come off sounding rude, TBD, but do you have any comparison testings of your own to back it up?

What I did notice, though, was that Phoenic with the MSF-H had a lot less recoil, so you're definitely right on that.

By the way, I'll try to post video comes the weekend, if you'd guys like.

Great testing. I plan on doing a video myself when I get time. I think it'd be great for whoever I doing well with Phoenix (as many are not) to also do a video to see what exactly is this huge difference.
Feb. 03, 2015  10:46 PM
 
@[TheBlackDragon] I personally feel as Phoenic should not be Tier List. Does it have any major advantage over any of the other combinations? Also it doesn't have that much testing besides your own. I can try it later when I get home tonight, but personally don't like most Zero G wheels in Limited (The only one I personally like is Wyvang, but that's me).
Feb. 04, 2015  2:36 AM
 
midnight: Not a huge change? Phoenic's win rate increased by almost 50% - that's pretty huge. Libra's rate of KO got cut in half, too, so it obviously decreased Phoenic's recoil significantly as well.

I know it doesn't actually look like that big of a change (actually, it does to me, but I could see why someone might not be impressed by a 10% increase), but that's likely because the win rates are kind of low.

In reality, the increase in performance is, mathematically, almost identical to this:

*Not genuine testing - formulated as an example.

Pegasis R145RF vs. MF-H Libra R145RSF
Libra launched first on all launches. RF and RSF in prime condition.
Pegasis: wins, 8/20 (All KO)
Libra: wins, 12/20 (4 KO, 8 OS)
Pegasis R145RF win rate: 40%

Then, we slape MF-H on it and get:

MF-H Pegasis R145RF vs. MF-H Libra R145RSF
Libra launched first on all launches. RF and RSF in prime condition.
Pegasis: wins, 12/20 (All KO)
Libra: wins, 8/20 (2 KO, 6 OS)
MF-H Pegasis R145RF win rate: 60%

Mathematically speaking, that's about the level of change between your two sets of results.

Thunder Dome: Actually, both Coach and th!nk did quite a bit of testing with it, and they got great results.

I understand if nobody wants it list it, but I personally think we should give it a go.
Feb. 04, 2015  2:42 AM
 
Phoenic defenitely deserves a spot. I'm not a huge chrome wheel user in LTD (besides Wyvang) but there is no denying it is top tier material.

Also, why no AD145/W145 with Meteo in stamina? Idk if there was official tests but I always thought AD145 was the best, even slightly above ED145 and W145.
Feb. 04, 2015  2:45 AM
 
I still don't know why people can't understand that simple thing... W145 goes on RIGHT spin, LW160 goes on LEFT. If you put LW160 on Right or W145 on Left, the effect will be totally different.
Feb. 04, 2015  2:49 AM
 
(Feb. 04, 2015  2:42 AM)Tri Wrote: Also, why no AD145/W145 with Meteo in stamina? Idk if there was official tests but I always thought AD145 was the best, even slightly above ED145 and W145.

LAD is more important than pure Stamina on Meteo; although AD145 does have better Stamina than TR145 or ED145, it's more important that you get the LAD those tracks offer to be able to win close matches.
Feb. 04, 2015  2:51 AM
 
@BeyBouncer You wanna not be a complete douche meanie about it? Do you honestly believe the effect of W145 is really a thing? I mean seriously, how much upward/downward force do you think a piece of plastic is going to make? I've tried it and it works great so ...

Cake, honestly when TR145 or ED145 hits the ground you are a lot closer to lights out than with a track with a smaller diameter (which still supply LAD more in limited im guessing cause of the lighter weight). Thats why I never really understodd precession with those tracks over one such as AD145.
Feb. 04, 2015  3:10 AM
 
Hey, that's a little harsh.

But seriously though, there are some cases where it matters, and some where it does not. While W105/LW105/DF105 has no significant effect, and all of the Rubber Flats are now considered interchangeable, I believe Ingulit and Angry Face found that W145 and LW160 have large enough "wings" that it does have an effect (well mainly on W145 since LW160 doesn't see much use or testing).

I personally prefer CH120 over the others since my ED145 and TR145 are pretty tight.

EDIT: If you haven't already, check this thread out. Do you guys think we should kick Bakushin? I think it should stay based on my personal experiences but thought this was worth bringing up anyways.
Feb. 04, 2015  3:15 AM
 
(Feb. 04, 2015  2:51 AM)Tri Wrote: @BeyBouncer You wanna not be a complete douche about it? Do you honestly believe the effect of W145 is really a thing? I mean seriously, how much upward/downward force do you think a piece of plastic is going to make? I've tried it and it works great so ...

He wasn't exactly being super polite, but that wasn't really necessary. In the wise words of someone, "You get more bees with honey,".

On the topic of Pheonix, I still don't really think it should get a spot. Even if it changed the recoil, it still doesn't exactly show a superb win-rate within both of the 50 trials.
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