[Image: LTD_Bakushin_vs_Scythe_vs_Earth_vs_Libra.png]
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Libra vs Earth vs Bakushin vs Scythe
Limited Format Defense Wheel Comparison
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Hey everyone, how's it going? So recently, I decided to do comparisons between our present top-tier wheels for Defense, and even in other areas, Libra, Earth, Scythe and Bakushin, to see which of the four does best in certain Defense areas; LTDCs, HTDCs, as well as MTDCs. With that in mind, let's begin, then!
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Before we get onto the testings, however, lets take a look at the fours' weights. Just to mention, though, my Libra is one of which from the BB-96, and an A2 mold. (Click to View)

Libra Weight: 42 grams.
Earth Weight: 33 grams.
Bakushin Weight: 31 grams.
Scythe Weight: 34 grams.

So, we see that Libra is by far the heaviest, whereas Earth, Bakushin and Scythe seem to be around the same.

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Equipment Used (Click to View)

BB-10 Attack Stadium

Beypointer + L/R String Launcher

Left-Spin String Launcher

Battle Notes (Click to View)

R2F and RSF in their prime.

When wins are above 7 once the first ten matches are done, no more testings are done, as we're already able to see what kind of potential it has; this would be the same if the wins are below three.

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LTDC Comparison Testings:

Libra 85RSF: 82.5% Average

Libra Results (Click to View)

Libra 85RSF versus Lightning L-Drago 90R2F
Libra: 9/10 (5 OS, 4 KO) 90% win rate.
LLD: 1/10 (ALL KO) 10% win rate.

Libra 85RSF versus Pegasis 90R2F
Libra: 15/20 (7 OS, 8 KO) 75% win rate.
Pegasis: 5/20 (ALL KO) 25% win rate.

Just to mention, the prime reason why so many of Libra's wins were won by KO were simply because Pegasis' recoil. Despite that, though, the overall result was good.

Libra 85RSF versus Omega Horuseus 90R2F
Libra: 9/10 (8 OS, 1 KO) 90% win rate.
Omega Horuseus: 1/10 (ALL KO) 10% win rate.

Overall, Libra's definitely amazing in this area!

Earth Leone 85RSF: 74% Average

Earth Results (Click to View)

Earth Leone 85RSF versus Lightning L-Drago 90R2F
Earth Leone: 14/20 (12 OS, 2 KO) 70% win rate.
LLD: 6/20 (ALL KO) 30% win rate.

A 14/20, definitely passable, though only ten rounds were needed for Libra, Lightning managed to get one more coincidental KO off of Earth, and still following the rules of doing 20 matches where it's wins are between 4 and 6.

Earth Leone 85RSF versus Pegasis 90R2F
Earth Leone: 15/20 (ALL OS) 75% win rate.
Pegasis: 5/20 (ALL KO) 25% win rate.

Okay, I don't really know what to say; this is definitely confusing, seeing as eight of Libra's win the last match with Pegasis were by KO's. I'm not too sure what difference could have been.

Earth Leone 85RSF versus Omega Horuseus 90R2F
Earth Leone: 8/10 (7 OS, 1 KO) 80% win rate.
Omega Horuseus: 2/10 (ALL KO) 20% win rate.

Bakushin Leone 85RSF: 64% Average

Bakushin Results (Click to View)

Bakushin Leone 85RSF versus Lightning L-Drago 90R2F
Bakushin Leone: 7/10 (12 OS, 2 KO) 70% win rate.
LLD: 6/20 (ALL KO) 30% win rate.

A 14/20, definitely passable, though only ten rounds were needed for Libra, Lightning managed to get one more coincidental KO off of Earth, and still following the rules of doing 20 matches where it's wins are between 4 and 6.

Bakushin Leone 85RSF versus Pegasis 90R2F
Bakushin Leone: 12/20 (9 OS, 3 KO) 60% win rate.
Pegasis: 8/20 (1 OS, 7 KO) 40% win rate.

12/20 isn't necessarily a bad score, but for LTDC, against attack, it kind of is.

Bakushin was KO'ed rather easily and move around the stadium quite a lot, which isn't good.

Bakushin Leone 85RSF versus Omega Horuseus 90R2F
Bakushin Leone: 13/20 (ALL OS) 65% win rate.
Omega Horuseus: 7/20 (ALL KO) 35% win rate.

Overall, Bakushin did pretty horrendously. :\

While the results were always above 60 percent as a win rate, it again, was KO'ed very easily, and when it wasn't, it moved around the stadium quite a lot. Still, despite that, though, it's still a passable option as an LTDC, but didn't do as good as Libra and Earth in this area.

Scythe Leone 85RSF: 70% Average

Scythe Results (Click to View)

Scythe Leone 85RSF versus Lightning L-Drago 90R2F
Scythe Leone: 12/20 (5 OS, 7 KO) 60% win rate.
LLD: 8/20 (3 OS, 3 KO) 40% win rate.

Wow, not good. Scythe clearly did really bad against Lightning! Lightning even managed to pull of OS'S off of Scythe, believe it or not. When Scythe did win by OS, though, the matches were always real close. I'm disappointed.

Scythe Leone 85RSF versus Pegasis 90R2F
Scythe Leone: 8/10 (4 OS, 4 KO) 80% win rate.
Pegasis: 2/10 (ALL KO) 20% win rate.

Note: One of the four of Scythe's wins won by KO were out of Pegasis' recoil and it Self-KO'ing itself.

Scythe Leone 85RSF versus Omega Horuseus 90R2F
Scythe Leone: 8/10 (ALL OS) 65% win rate.
Omega Horuseus: 2/10 (ALL KO) 35% win rate.

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MTDC Comparison Testings:

Libra GB145RSF: 73% Average

Libra Results (Click to View)

Libra GB145RSF versus Lightning L-Drago 90R2F
Libra: 3/10 (2 OS, 1 KO) 30% win rate.
LLD: 7/10 (ALL KO) 70% win rate.

Libra GB145RSF versus Pegasis 90R2F
Libra: 10/10 (7 OS, 8 KO) 100% win rate.
Pegasis: 0/10 (0 OS, 0 KO) 0% win rate.

Libra GB145RSF versus Omega Horuseus 90R2F
Libra: 9/10 (7 OS, 2 KO) 90% win rate.
Omega Horuseus: 1/10 (ALL KO) 10% win rate.

Earth Aquario GB145RSF: 62.5% Average

Earth Results (Click to View)

Earth Aquario GB145RSF versus Lightning L-Drago 90R2F
Earth Aquario: 8/20 (6 OS, 2 KO) 40% win rate.
LLD: 12/20 (ALL KO) 60% win rate.

Earth Aquario GB145RSF versus Pegasis 90R2F
Earth Aquario: 10/10 (ALL OS) 100% win rate.
Pegasis: 0/10 (0 OS, 0 KO) 0% win rate.

Earth Aquario GB145RSF versus Omega Horuseus 90R2F
Earth Aquario: 7/10 (6 OS, 1 KO) 70% win rate.
Omega Horuseus: 2/10 (ALL KO) 30% win rate.

Bakushin Aquario GB145RSF: 52.5% Average

Bakushin Results (Click to View)

Bakushin Aquario GB145RSF versus Lightning L-Drago 90R2F
Bakushin Aquario: 3/10 (2 OS, 1 KO) 30% win rate.
LLD: 7/10 (ALL KO) 70% win rate.

Bakushin Aquario GB145RSF versus Pegasis 90R2F
Bakushin Aquario: 7/10 (5 OS, 2 KO) 70% win rate.
Pegasis: 3/10 (ALL KO) 30% win rate.

Bakushin Aquario GB145RSF versus Omega Horuseus 90R2F
Bakushin Aquario: 11/20 (9 OS, 2 KO) 55% win rate.
Omega Horuseus: 9/20 (ALL KO) 45% win rate.

Scythe Aquario GB145RSF: 62.5% Average

Scythe Results (Click to View)

Scythe Aquario GB145RSF versus Lightning L-Drago 90R2F
Scythe Aquario: 11/20 (10 OS, 1 KO) 55% win rate.
LLD: 9/20 (1 OS, 8 KO) 45% win rate.

Scythe Aquario GB145RSF versus Pegasis 90R2F
Scythe Aquario: 7/10 (4 OS, 3 KO) 70% win rate.
Pegasis: 3/10 (ALL KO) 30% win rate.

Scythe Aquario GB145RSF versus Omega Horuseus 90R2F
Scythe Aquario: 7/10 (5 OS, 2 KO) 70% win rate.
Omega Horuseus: 3/10 (ALL KO) 30% win rate.

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HTDC Comparison Testings:

Libra 230RSF: 67% Average

Libra Results (Click to View)

Libra 230RSF versus Lightning L-Drago TR145R2F
Libra: 2/10 (ALL OS) 20% win rate.
LLD: 8/10 (ALL KO) 80% win rate.

Libra 230RSF versus Pegasis TR145R2F
Libra: 9/10 (ALL OS) 90% win rate.
Pegasis: 1/10 (ALL KO) 25% win rate.

Libra 85RSF versus Samurai Wyvang (Crystal Mode Up) GB145R2F
Libra: 9/10 (ALL OS) 90% win rate.
Samurai Wyvang: 1/10 (ALL KO) 10% win rate.

Earth Cancer 230RSF: 70% Average

Earth Results (Click to View)

Earth Cancer 230RSF versus Lightning L-Drago TR145R2F
Earth Cancer: 3/10 (ALL OS) 30% win rate.
LLD: 7/10 (ALL KO) 70% win rate.

Earth Cancer 230RSF versus Pegasis TR145R2F
Earth Cancer: 8/10 (7 OS, 1 KO) 80% win rate.
Pegasis: 2/10 (ALL KO) 20% win rate.

Earth Cancer 230RSF versus Samurai Wyvang (Crystal Mode Up) GB145R2F
Earth Cancer: 10/10 (9 OS, 1 KO) 100% win rate.
Samurai Wyvang: 0/10 (ALL KO) 0% win rate.

Bakushin Cancer 230RSF: 63% Average

Bakushin Results (Click to View)

Bakushin Leone 230RSF versus Lightning L-Drago TR145R2F
Bakushin Cancer: 3/10 (ALL OS) 30% win rate.
LLD: 7/10 (ALL KO) 70% win rate.

Bakushin Cancer 230RSF versus Pegasis TR145R2F
Bakushin Cancer: 7/10 (5 OS, 2 KO) 70% win rate.
Pegasis: 3/10 (ALL KO) 30% win rate.

Bakushin Cancer 230RSF versus Samurai Wyvang (Crystal Mode Up) GB145R2F
Bakushin Cancer: 9/10 (5 OS, 4 KO) 90% win rate.
Samurai Wyvang: 1/10 (ALL KO) 10% win rate.

Scythe Cancer 230RSF: 57% Average

Scythe Results (Click to View)

Scythe Cancer 230RSF versus Lightning L-Drago TR145R2F
Scythe Cancer: 2/10 (1 OS, 1 KO) 20% win rate.
LLD: 8/10 (ALL KO) 80% win rate.

Scythe Cancer 230RSF versus Pegasis TR145R2F
Scythe Cancer: 7/10 (5 OS, 2 KO) 70% win rate.
Pegasis: 2/10 (ALL KO) 20% win rate.

Scythe Cancer 230RSF versus Samurai Wyvang (Crystal Mode Up) GB145R2F
Scythe Cancer: 8/10 (6 OS, 2 KO) 80% win rate.
Samurai Wyvang: 2/10 (ALL KO) 20% win rate.

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Overall Results (Click to View)

Libra 85RSF : 33/40 : 82.5%.
Earth Leone 85RSF : 37/50 : 74%.
Bakushin Leone 85RSF : 32/50 : 64%.
Scythe Leone 85RSF : 28/40 : 70%.

Against L-Drago: Libra > Bakushin and Earth > Scythe.
Against Pegasis: Scythe > Libra and Earth > Bakushin.
Against Omega: Libra > Earth and Scythe > Bakushin.

Overall: Libra > Earth > Scythe > Bakushin.

At this state, even though Libra seemed to do best, all of the results were rather close, so much can't be determined. All of them are passable options for LTDC, though.

Libra GB145RSF : 22/30 : 73%.
Earth Aquario GB145RSF : 25/40 : 62.5%.
Bakushin Aquario GB145RSF : 21/40 : 52.5%.
Scythe Aquario GB145RSF : 25/40 : 62.5%.

Against L-Drago: Scythe > Earth > Libra and Bakushin.
Against Pegasis: Libra and Earth > Scythe and Bakushin.
Against Omega: Libra > Earth and Scythe > Bakushin.

Overall: Libra > Earth and Scythe > Bakushin.


Like the LTDC comparison matches, the results were all rather close, so were these ones, although we clearly saw that Bakushin was very unsuccessful as an MTDC. That in mind, though again, Libra did best, Earth and Scythe are still passable options for MTDC.

Libra 230RSF : 20/30 : 67%.
Earth Cancer 230RSF : 21/30 : 70%.
Bakushin Cancer 230RSF : 19/30 : 63%.
Scythe Cancer 230RSF : 17/30 : 57%.

Against Lightning: Bakushin and Earth > Libra and Scythe.
Against Pegasis: Libra > Earth > Bakushin and Scythe.
Against Samurai Wyvang: Earth > Libra and Bakushin > Scythe.

Overall: Earth > Libra > Bakushin > Scythe.

Okay, so before I say anything else, let me just say that these HTDCs got absolutely WRECKED by Lightning, like it moved them like they were stamina! I didn't really expect them to do all that impressive, though. I mean, even if Lightning didn't get the KO, it still had a chance at destabilizing the four because of their height.

Overall, nothing much can be determined just yet. Though Earth did best, all of the battles' results and final outcomes were just about the same, so I can't really say much. They still are all fine options for HTDCs.

Very interesting topic.

Definitely something neat to look into; as far as the "best" Defensive options go.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

I would suggest doing tests with MTAC against the MTDC and LTDC; I think that mid-height combos will perform very differently than LTAC, especially against Bakushin, which from my experience does poorly against other LTAC (as you found) but causes mid-track combos to just glance off its sloped sides. If you look at any of the other Defense options out there, they all have somewhat recoil-y top sides, except for Bakushin. I expect Bakushin LTDC will do better against MTAC than any other LTDC out there.

Not to discredit the enormous amount of work this must have taken, haha. I think this is worth considering, though. I will do tests of my own if I have time later tonight.

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Threads and combos!

Spoiler (Click to View)

[LTD] MF Jade Horogium 85RSF
[LTD] RB / RSF Attack
[LTD] Ronin Genbull (Crystal Up) 85RF
MF-H Phantom (Attack) Cancer 85RB
MSF-H Wyvang Ifraid GB145RF {Alternative to Wyvang^2 with more Upper Attack}
MSF-H Genbull Genbull 85RSF {Improved version of the above Phantom combo}
Balro Begirados 100RF {LTAC with both Upper Smash and regular Smash}
[LTD] MF-H Lightning L-Drago 85RB {more controllable Lightning LTAC}
[LTD] Burn Orion 105SF {Destabilizer}

Shido (not calling you Honey, haha) , you are the man. This thread is, like, completely great.

The only thing is, Like Cake said, Bakushin is designed to work well against mid-height Attack customs; LTACs aren't its strong point.

But dang, the Earth vs. Scythe vs. Libra stuff is incredibly valuable information. Kudos.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

i think libra is the best for stanima defense and balance so libra is the best one

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i think libra is the best for stanima defense and balance so libra is the best one

It's not necessarily the best option. It depends on the match up. For example if it's on a high track like 230 MTAC's wreck it because it's underside doesn't take attacks well. Also I would argue that it isn't the best for stamina out of these. I'd personally pick Scythe or Earth over Libra for stamina.

Also fantastic thread Honey (that just sounds so weird), this is quite good knowledge to have. I'm so glad someone finally tested and compared the defensive options for limited.

Ooh... just read more closely and realized most of these results are only 10 rounds.

Shido, do you think you might be able to do ten more for the ones that have been cut short? Considering the fact that this is Attack testing, 10 round tests cut at a 70% win rate don't provide the most reliable information.

Not trying to be nitpicky, but you know.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

I would suggest doing tests with MTAC against the MTDC and LTDC; I think that mid-height combos will perform very differently than LTAC, especially against Bakushin, which from my experience does poorly against other LTAC (as you found) but causes mid-track combos to just glance off its sloped sides.

Bakushin is designed to work well against mid-height Attack customs; LTACs aren't its strong point.

Well, obviously guys, they were going to needed to be done. That's also what this thread is for; to point out a defense wheels strong and week areas, whereas Bakushin doesn't, like you guys said, doesn't do great against LTACs.

Shido, do you think you might be able to do ten more for the ones that have been cut short? Considering the fact that this is Attack testing, 10 round tests cut at a 70% win rate don't provide the most reliable information.

Yeah, I'd definitely be willing to comes the weekend. Hopefully they'll give more accurate results.
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EDIT: On another note, definitely do appreciate these compliments, haha. Thanks guys.

Also fantastic thread Honey (that just sounds so weird), this is quite good knowledge to have. I'm so glad someone finally tested and compared the defensive options for limited.

OMG, senpai noticed me!!