MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)

In my own humble opinion, I think it would be better to make the synchrome-less category the zero g-less category instead because some people don't really like zero g altogether and think that it made the game way more complicated. But either way I am all for it and think it would be really cool to have categories where a giant chunk of the wheels and parts are actually competitive in one format or another
(Sep. 09, 2015  3:48 AM)Zoroaste Wrote: In my own humble opinion, I think it would be better to make the synchrome-less category the zero g-less category instead because some people don't really like zero g altogether and think that it made the game way more complicated.

One of my issues with restricting Zero-G, is that it can be complicated to remember what was released in Zero-G for a lot of people. You also have the confusion that Zero-g is allowed in limited... which is even more confusing.

"I can use F230GCF in standard and limited but I can't in zero-g-less? WHAT"

I don't have a quantified amount of people who like or dislike Zero-G parts... But I don't think the game was complicated by Zero-G parts, it made it better. It gave way to more types and strategies due to it's parts, like: E230 (a crucial track to countering strong attack types), or even GCF/CF/GF/SA165/F230 which gave birth to reliable spin equalizers and reliable tornado stallers.

Zero-G Synchromes is what ruined the game. Every wheel became very similar in shape, and weight skyrocketed... which made attack even more risky to use... to the point where you basically couldn't use pure attack types reliably...

Limiting the wheels to synchrome-less changes the situation. It makes it so that stamina/spin equalization isn't necessarily the only choice since you can't just rely on weight, but rather, a risk to use but can still yield great results if used in the right moment instead of just spamming it. Since weight isn't necessarily an issue for attack types, they too can have their time to shine and achieve KO's.

But I think the biggest thing is that removing that many parts really limits the creativity and variety in combinations. Plus there's such a big opportunity for trying out new combos with 4D wheels and Zero-G parts seeing as how pretty much every 4D wheel was shelved when wheels for synchromes were released.

I really want to see how a tournament like that would play out o_o...
(Sep. 09, 2015  3:43 AM)juncction Wrote: Synchrome-less
Which is a format where all parts are allowed (including zero-g), except synchromes are banned (and possibly Flash/Duo/Diablo since they're so dominant and stifling). This way, you open the path to new combos and new strategies with wheels that you weren't really allowed to use before. It would make the format great for exploring and experimenting with.

This is a great plan, it seems like more parts wold end up being banned than flash/ duo/ and diablo eventually tho. phantom/basalt E230tb seems like a pretty op combo off hand. But I would love to see this become an official format, It would be awesome to actually use my 4D beys. I can imagine it now, Blitz unicorno R145rf Vs Phantom Orion W145cs..... epic...
(Sep. 09, 2015  4:04 AM)juncction Wrote: Zero-G Synchromes is what ruined the game. Every wheel became very similar in shape...
Sure, most of the Chrome Wheels are lumpy asymmetrical things, but what's important is that they're different sorts of lumpy. Different Chrome Wheels perform very differently, and have their own unique niches in the metagame. Wyvang loses to E230 Defense, Balro clobbers it. Girago improves spin-stealing, Genbull has good Stamina, Killerken boosts the Stamina of anything it's paired with, Revizer is awesome Defense, Gryph increases RPM and exposes attack points, Begirados has great Upper Attack, Ifraid exposes Bahamidia and Wyvang's attack points perfectly, and Dragooon provides left-spin. There are plenty of unique Chrome Wheels which can be combined in all sorts of pairings to get different effects, which I think is really great for creativity in customization.

(Sep. 09, 2015  4:04 AM)juncction Wrote: ...and weight skyrocketed... which made attack even more risky to use... to the point where you basically couldn't use pure attack types reliably...
Wyvang says hello.

(Sep. 09, 2015  4:04 AM)juncction Wrote: Limiting the wheels to synchrome-less changes the situation. It makes it so that stamina/spin equalization isn't necessarily the only choice since you can't just rely on weight, but rather, a risk to use but can still yield great results if used in the right moment instead of just spamming it.
MF-H L-Drago Guardian BD145RDF says hi as well.

(Sep. 09, 2015  4:04 AM)juncction Wrote: Since weight isn't necessarily an issue for attack types, they too can have their time to shine and achieve KO's.

I really want to see how a tournament like that would play out o_o...
The problem with going back to the end of 4D is that the metagame was in a really dangerous place before Revizer Killerken defense and E230 came out. Flash Orion W145MF was pretty much the most anti-meta combo since Basalt or Libra CH120RF - it OSed everything it couldn't KO, and KOed everything it couldn't OS. There were a few non-Zero-G counters, but a meta that's all about countering one combo isn't healthy. The arrival of super-heavy, super-tall Defense types with decent Stamina stopped Flash W145MF from becoming too huge of a threat, but it was still pretty scary for a while. The fact that it's still top-tier in Standard just goes to show how strong it is. Its pre-Zero-G form, Flash Orion AD145MF, was also strong, but it wasn't able to OS as many things and therefore wasn't as much of a threat. I think that if there is going to be a 4D-era format, it either needs to be strictly 4D era, with no Zero-G parts at all, or it needs to be similar to Limited, where only the less OP parts are legal.
Cake Wrote:Sure, most of the Chrome Wheels are lumpy asymmetrical things, but what's important is that they're different sorts of lumpy. Different Chrome Wheels perform very differently, and have their own unique niches in the metagame. Wyvang loses to E230 Defense, Balro clobbers it. Girago improves spin-stealing, Genbull has good Stamina, Killerken boosts the Stamina of anything it's paired with, Revizer is awesome Defense, Gryph increases RPM and exposes attack points, Begirados has great Upper Attack, Ifraid exposes Bahamidia and Wyvang's attack points perfectly, and Dragooon provides left-spin. There are plenty of unique Chrome Wheels which can be combined in all sorts of pairings to get different effects, which I think is really great for creativity in customization.

I think I had too bit of a negative tone with Standard and Synchromes. To be honest, I actually exclusively collect and play with Synchromes. I'm always constantly thinking of how certain wheels can work with others. I can agree that there is a lot of customization here. I get that they are unique. And I get that they have unique properties... But the shape dynamic isn't as unique as 4d.

Flash is a football, Variares is a ninja star that will draw blood on impact. Blitz is also a wind swept ninjastar. Beat is also a unique shape.

Most zero-g chrome wheels (aside from like... Bahamidia) are basically circles.

Cake Wrote:Wyvang says hello.

Wyvang is used way more heavily on BD145RDF/RSF than RF.


Cake Wrote:MF-H L-Drago Guardian BD145RDF says hi as well.

I recall Variares/Blitz being able to take that out easily.


Cake Wrote:The problem with going back to the end of 4D is that the metagame was in a really dangerous place before Revizer Killerken defense and E230 came out. Flash Orion W145MF was pretty much the most anti-meta combo since Basalt or Libra CH120RF - it OSed everything it couldn't KO, and KOed everything it couldn't OS. There were a few non-Zero-G counters, but a meta that's all about countering one combo isn't healthy. The arrival of super-heavy, super-tall Defense types with decent Stamina stopped Flash W145MF from becoming too huge of a threat, but it was still pretty scary for a while. The fact that it's still top-tier in Standard just goes to show how strong it is. Its pre-Zero-G form, Flash Orion AD145MF, was also strong, but it wasn't able to OS as many things and therefore wasn't as much of a threat. I think that if there is going to be a 4D-era format, it either needs to be strictly 4D era, with no Zero-G parts at all, or it needs to be similar to Limited, where only the less OP parts are legal.

In my previous post I had already suggested Flash/Duo/Diablo for bans right off the bat.

In terms of strictly 4D, I don't believe there's enough versatility in tracks without Zero-G parts and BD145 will probably just be spammed if it isn't banned since there isn't any other options, I not the biggest fan of how many rules Limited has.

I guess it's a matter of which preference which dictates the direction it goes.

Either -

To have the most variety by allowing Zero-G parts.

Or

To have just 4D but ban OP parts right away.



(Just realized how off-topic this was, my bad).
So I thought it would be worth bringing the Scythe discussion to this thread as it was being mentioned in the mentor discussion. TheBlackDragon brought up that Scythe might be a dominant part now that Libra and Omega are banned. Personally I have never felt Scythe would rule the meta without Libra and Omega. Scythe is definitely a very good part (a great part actually), but I don't think it is ban worthy currently. I just did some Burn vs Scythe comparison tests. I would have definitely done more, but my string in my launcher completely bailed out on me as I started the Scythe vs Earth tests sadly. Hopefully I can fix up one of my other broken launchers to continue testing as I still wait for my LR from the credits campaign but hopefully this will encourage some other members to start testing Scythe if they have it to see if it really is ban worthy as TheBlackDragon has stated.

Scythe vs Burn Wrote:MF-F Scythe Cancer SW145 (Defense) WD vs MF-F Burn Cancer SW145 (Defense) WD
WD’s swapped every 10 rounds. Scythe launched first on odds, Burn launched first on evens.
Scythe: 13 (10 OS, 3 KO)
Burn: 7 (7 OS)
Scythe win rate: 65%
Detailed Results

Okay so let me breakdown the match up a bit for you. Every time Burn ended up out spinning it actually didn't win by that much. Scythe was actually able to bang Burn around enough that it could even out spin it or come close to out spinning it by doing just that. It even landed some KO's as well due to its recoil. I feel if I wasn't just straight launching both the beys and had to decided to bank Scythe just a bit it probably would have completely destroyed Burn by either knocking it out or slamming it around so hard it would just end up being out spun by Scythe.

I wish I could have done some tests against other combinations to see which had the better stamina overall (Scythe and Burn), but sadly I couldn't. I feel Scythe is probably more versatile overall though. Really wish my launcher wouldn't have busted down during the Earth tests, but because of that factor I can't really give a good breakdown for that match up since I only got through 4 rounds.

Well hopefully this sparks up some interest in Scythe testing and it would be awesome if some others could test Scythe to see if it's performance is ban worthy or not. I'd really appreciate that!
Scythe is not ban worthy. Libra was much more "anti-meta" as people liked to say. Scythe can't KO everything that it can't out spin like Libra basically did. Scythe is a great stamina metal wheel but the main concern for LTD is the dominance of attack in my opinion. Bakushin and Jade are there, but they can both be countered. Scythe for defense is risky because the amount of recoil it has if struck towards the top. I remember Scythe SR200CS being very good though. It had all the "anti-meta" (again, for lack of a better term) qualities that something like Libra GCF had with the exception of battles against low stamina and ability to KO (except against taller set ups). I'll post some tests tomorrow to back up my tatements

My post in a nut shell: Scythe is no Libra. Attack is scary. Defense better pray.
Yeah, I don't think Scythe needs a banning. With all of the fears of "X-mold" of Scythe being better than another are pretty much gone, the part is pretty good, but not ban worthy. Defense really needs something (Scythe) now that Libra is gone.
Personally, I think without Omega and Libra, attack has a serious disadvantage in Limited. Going through the Scythe Limited thread, I'm seeing that there aren't really enough Scythe vs attack tests, particularly when it comes to what would now be considered Limited top tier. When Omega was still in the picture, I wouldn't have considered banning it at all, but now that the game has been considerably powered down, I do think that Scythe could potentially pose a threat.
Scythe won't be a defensive threat from what I have seen.

MF-H Pegasis W145RF vs MF-H Scythe Cygnus GB145RSF
Pegasis: 15 wins (All KO)
Scythe: 5 wins (All KO)

MF-H Lightning L-Drago (Upper) R145RF vs. MF-H Scythe Cygnus GB145RB
Lightning: 17 wins (All KO)
Scythe: 3 wins (All KO)

I actually got better results with Burn and Earth somehow.

EDIT: ^FORGOT TO POST THOSE :o
MF-H Pegasis W145RF vs. MF-H Earth Cygnus GB145RSF
Pegasis: 14 wins (All KO)
Earth: 6 wins (5 KO, 1 OS)

Scythe Cygnus SR200CS and Scythe Cygnus GB145RF seem very worthwhile for the CC list though so I'll be posting those tests in the other thread shortly. They aren't ban worthy though. Scythe has its use, but primarilyaggressive defense and tall stamina customs in my opinion.
So I've been testing a bit today since I have a tournament tomorrow, and I can say this:

MSF-H Dark Knight Girago 90LRF is seriously overpowered. Literally only Jade 90RSF can beat it, and not even consistently. Like others have mentioned, Defense/Stamina is dead.

@ the Scythe discussion, it is not worth a ban, but MF-H Scythe CH120/GB145RF seems really consistent against most things as well. Not on the Dark Knight Girago level though.
(Sep. 12, 2015  7:03 PM)LMAO Wrote: So I've been testing a bit today since I have a tournament tomorrow, and I can say this:

MSF-H Dark Knight Girago 90LRF is seriously overpowered. Literally only Jade 90RSF can beat it, and not even consistently. Like others have mentioned, Defense/Stamina is dead.

@ the Scythe discussion, it is not worth a ban, but MF-H Scythe CH120/GB145RF seems really consistent against most things as well. Not on the Dark Knight Girago level though.

can this mean a potential ltd ban on ronin/Dark Knight?
(Sep. 12, 2015  7:03 PM)LMAO Wrote: So I've been testing a bit today since I have a tournament tomorrow, and I can say this:

MSF-H Dark Knight Girago 90LRF is seriously overpowered. Literally only Jade 90RSF can beat it, and not even consistently. Like others have mentioned, Defense/Stamina is dead.

@ the Scythe discussion, it is not worth a ban, but MF-H Scythe CH120/GB145RF seems really consistent against most things as well. Not on the Dark Knight Girago level though.

It honestly makes me so happy that the Ronin Zirago LTAC setup is doing so well in such a competitive meta.

I know we can't say we came up/invented combinations, but I can say that is the best one I've posted, haha.
(Sep. 12, 2015  12:25 PM)Leone19 Wrote: Yeah, I don't think Scythe needs a banning. With all of the fears of "X-mold" of Scythe being better than another are pretty much gone, the part is pretty good, but not ban worthy. Defense really needs something (Scythe) now that Libra is gone.

What about Fang?
(Oct. 07, 2015  3:29 PM)Dracieleone Wrote:
(Sep. 12, 2015  12:25 PM)Leone19 Wrote: Yeah, I don't think Scythe needs a banning. With all of the fears of "X-mold" of Scythe being better than another are pretty much gone, the part is pretty good, but not ban worthy. Defense really needs something (Scythe) now that Libra is gone.

What about Fang?

Fang isn't that good. It doesn't need a ban or anything.
You should elaborate a little bit more when you reply, dude.

Why Fang is not good ? Because of it light weight, and of it overall shape that makes it unusable for defense. It also can't be used for attack, because Fang's shape is not agressive enough. It's not that hard to give a proper answer with more content. Smile
(Oct. 07, 2015  7:49 PM)MissingNo. Wrote: You should elaborate a little bit more when you reply, dude.

Why Fang is not good ? Because of it light weight, and of it overall shape that makes it unusable for defense. It also can't be used for attack, because Fang's shape is not agressive enough. It's not that hard to give a proper answer with more content. Smile

Please tone down the sarcasm.

Besides, his reply was fine. If someone is proposing a part be banned, it's up to them to provide rationale for it. Expecting a lengthy defense to a one-off reply like that isn't reasonable.
It wasn't sarcastic :\

Before he edited it, his answer was only :

(Oct. 07, 2015  7:39 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote: Fang isn't good.

It do answer Dracieleone's question, but it doesn't explain why.
(Oct. 07, 2015  8:52 PM)MissingNo. Wrote: It wasn't sarcastic :\

OK, sorry for misinterpreting!
(Oct. 07, 2015  8:52 PM)MissingNo. Wrote: It wasn't sarcastic :\

Before he edited it, his answer was only :

(Oct. 07, 2015  7:39 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote: Fang isn't good.

It do answer Dracieleone's question, but it doesn't explain why.

I was suggesting that Fang be exempt from the ban like Jade is.
Fang would probably be OP in Limited due to its relatively powerful Attack and large mass compared to most Limited-legal parts.

Jade is legal despite being heavy and attack-y because it has poor Stamina and pretty strong recoil when used as an Attacker.
Fang might be a less than decent metal wheel, but when you put it up against a hollow Scythe or Earth, it will probably KO it due to.. Well, the fact of how it performs compared to Pegasus.

Probably a good idea to keep it banned..
Fang was almost a top-tier Metal Wheel for Attack upon its release. It'll never be legal in Limited.
In all honestly Jade should be banned as well, not because it's good, but because of its weight class. It's just heavier than all other Metal Wheels, I'm sure Kei can agree with this lol
(Oct. 14, 2015  12:21 AM)LMAO Wrote: In all honestly Jade should be banned as well, not because it's good, but because of its weight class. It's just heavier than all other Metal Wheels, I'm sure Kei can agree with this lol

But does being heavier actually make it game-breaking? Diablo is substantially heavier than its 4D peers, but it's not overpowered. It's strong, but it's not game-breaking by any means.

If there are issues with Jade being too powerful for Limited, with tests and/or tournament results to back it up, a ban is probably necessary. But banning Jade because of an arbitrary weight limit really doesn't make sense. If that weight gives it a substantial advantage over other wheels - as was the case with Libra, whose mass and all-around strong performance made it extremely common and generally overused - then it deserves a ban. But if it's just different, like Diablo, where it's heavier than most parts but doesn't overshadow them, it should stay.