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MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)

Jan. 13, 2014  2:18 AM
 
It would. Also, what's the point of having it allowed for attack if it isn't that good. I mean wouldn't people go for a well known good Attack Track? Also, most of the Tracks are really only for 1-2 types. BD145 though can be used for everything. In the end: I see what you're trying to say, but it'd make Limited messed-up if we done something like that and people wouldn't choose it seen as they're better Tracks. FWIW, Attack doesn't really work well on 230 Tracks.
Jan. 13, 2014  2:21 AM
 
Ya, I understand your point. But it may just be something to consider for the future.
Jan. 13, 2014  2:26 AM
 
Don't worrie. Everyone gets there say. It was a good though, but I don't think we're ready for that yet. Also FWIW, if it was unbanned it would wreck the format in Defense, haha.
Jan. 13, 2014  2:43 PM
 
i have to agree with this ban list it seems that it will make beyblading competitive again but shouldnt there be a limit on weight like takara used to have which was 47g i think either way il try some testings and such see what can be top tier and so forth
Jan. 13, 2014  2:50 PM
 
I don't think so. Seen as I can't think of anything of that weight, haha. Also, if you look a Limited Random Thoughts I believe, me and th!nk have a draft on one. I'm halve way into updating it. It's also happy to see new testers. Oh, and it's been a long time since I saw you, haha.
Jan. 14, 2014  6:04 AM
 
Libra would be over that weight with certain combos but none of them are actually that threatening and most hosts don't have scales (though really everyone should get a cheap set and a calibration weight off ebay, they're not expensive and it's great for getting info on stuff).

Also just got my Kreis, MF-H Kreis Aquario GB145RSF (free spin mode or w/e it is) is basically an immovable object for most limited format attackers and MF-H Kreis Aquario CH120RF (fixed mode or w/e) is able to KO most of limited's defenders, and as a stamina type, well I'm not really sure it just knocks out every stamina wheel in limited if both are on WD because of its shape and weight. I mean kreis is an absolutely awful part (Dan is dead on about it being 4D Dark) but in limited it's still like ~8g heavier than most anything not called Libra in the format, which is huge. So no I don't think Kreis will be getting unbanned.

That leaves Fusion and Jade, Fusion is 44g and actually found something resembling usage in Standard so I really doubt that's going to be anything other than ridiculously broken in Limited. Jade is roughly the same weight as Libra assuming it has a 3g Clear Wheel on it, so that may be worth looking into.

EDIT: List of why each 4D wheel is banned should be up tomorrow, it's written but I'm too tired to give it a final check over and format it tonight.
Jan. 14, 2014  9:16 PM
 
I was just taking a quick look around the forums here, and I'm gonna post a few little comments here:

When I opposed Scythe's ban, there were only really 3 people who had actually tried it out. At this point, more people have gotten the same game breaking results, and, regardless of the number of these Scythes (which are seemingly characterized by the AA2 label on their underside), we simply cannot allow them to remain legal. It doesn't matter if there are only 5 in the world. What's to stop those from shutting down the entire tournament scene singlehandedly? That's a bit of an extreme example, but honestly, if any Scythes are really good enough to be shutting down the entire limited metagame, they need to go, and banning it outright is the simplest, most effective way to do that (any other solution would lead to arguments with judges, uncertainties between which molds to allow in play, etc.)

Now that I've seen consistent results from other testers showing AA2 Scythe's game breaking properties, I am a very, very strong proponent of banning Scythe from limited format play.

(Jan. 14, 2014  6:04 AM)th!nk Wrote: ... Also just got my Kreis, MF-H Kreis Aquario GB145RSF (free spin mode or w/e it is) is basically an immovable object for most limited format attackers...

Called it. Wink
Jan. 14, 2014  9:22 PM
 
I'm happy to see you've came around. Me and th!nk has been wanting this E-Banned, EB. TBH, no one's really thinking that. It does get game breaking results, yet nothing's happening. I'm in favor of EB this. I hope the advanced members take a look into this.
Jan. 14, 2014  9:28 PM
 
The advanced members have been speaking of banning Scythe actually Wink.

Seeing as it has great combos for all three of the main types and gets these insane results, I'm also up for a Scythe ban. Mine is AA1 and although apparently its one of the worse, I still have trouble KOing it. I'm gonna miss it Unhappy. Just kidding.

Also, I still am leaning more on the side of not banning Gravity. Just saying Tongue_out.
Jan. 14, 2014  9:34 PM
 
I meant, no ones really taking notice. I've just seen Nocto and th!nk getting serious. By the time it gets banned, it'll be already updated, haha.

Overall:

Ban Scythe.
Unban Omega
Keep Gravity
50/50 on F230.
Jan. 15, 2014  12:11 AM
 
Curious is metal fury Scythe or 4D Scythe better, has there been any looking into unbanning 4D Scythe and banning Metal Fury Scythe? any testing at all. I have no clue but it doesn't seem to have the same qualities to dominate.
Jan. 15, 2014  12:20 AM
 
Fake tests (Click to View)
WBO Committee: It was recently brought to our attention that all tests by Crescent in this topic are fabricated. We urge you to forget their results and that someone trustworthy conduct the actual tests for the sake of this metagame.
Jan. 15, 2014  12:22 AM
 
Wow, I'm just kind of surprised because it seemed to be one of the most inferior wheels of the 4D line.
Jan. 15, 2014  5:20 PM
 
Hm? No regular Scythe was amazing for low track defense and also stamina and actually has decent attack/anti-attack in Limited (I recall its defense against same height opponents being surprisingly poor - worth mentioning that metal fury Scythe is slightly thicker too). Just be a little patient and you'll have the reasons within 18 hours or thereabouts, just whenever I feel like dragging up the draft and finishing it off, amongst the hundred and one other things I'm doing (I'm legit as busy as I say I am right now, but as usual a lot of what I'm working on doesn't pan out to the point it's worth posting about, usually after like 3 hours of work or thereabouts - frustrating).

FWIW, L Drago Destroy actually doesn't seem too overpowered with the parts I have because of how recoil prone it is, but it does need testing for anti-attack and f230(g)cf and so on. That and Jade are the two things that probably should be looked into but tbh I don't know if either of them are good for the format right now. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating them being unbanned but if people want to spend the time looking to introduce some other 4D wheels those are the two you should be looking at.
Jan. 16, 2014  9:08 AM
 
"Why is this 4D Wheel Banned?"


Big Bang: Big Bang is hilariously broken in limited, it weights about 42g plus a clear wheel (more than Libra) and its shape makes it extremely effective for attack and anti-attack generally in a single combination.

Fang: Counter Mode knocks out the entire format without breaking a sweat - Fang was quite possibly the best attack wheel available at the time it was released, after all.

L-Drago Destroy: LDD is definitely one of the less worrying 4D wheels without BD145/SA165 or RDF available to it – without LDD's weight being necessary Lightning is scarier offensively and despite its massive 44g weight, LDD Spin Stealers are easily handled by Libra Anti Attack (at least in LDD B: D vs MF-H Libra GB145RF). However, F230CF/GCF as well as various other CF/GCF/XF/WF and Anti-Attack setups would need to be tested for it to be unbanned and even then, I'm not sure it would be healthy for the format – and if Libra is ever banned (which hopefully won't be necessary) then LDD should be illegal too, as then its weight advantage does become a bit of a problem for the rest of the format. Still, perhaps something to consider/look into in future.

L-Drago Guardian: Everyone that said "oh LDG and LDD are basically the same wheel" should compare them in limited. LDG's huge defensive superiority over its little brother becomes strikingly obvious, and for Defense and Spin Stealing and probably also Anti Attack, LDG absolutely dominates, and I'd hate to see what LDG F230GCF is capable of doing to Limited.

Kreis: Despite being the embodiment of mediocrity in standard, Kreis is an absolute monster in Limited, with an 8g weight advantage over everything but Libra. In Stamina mode, it's basically immovable on standard defense setups, while in Attack Mode, MF-H Kreis Aquario CH120RF is capable of KOing 145-height defense with ease.

Beat: Personally, I've always found both incarnations of Beat far too inconsistent to actually be effective attack wheels, but judging from the results others have got with the Metal Fury version, odds are this is just an incompatibility between the blader and the blade, and Beat is broken as heck by means of knocking out the whole format.

Hell: This was mostly because of MF-H Hell Kerbecs 230CS, but then I'm not sure if that's too much stronger than other 230CS combos any more. However, specific attack combos (MF Hell Kerbecs CH120RF, Hell Aquario H145RF) are able to KO the entire format, so Hell would dominate attack, be a major balance part (as 230CS is far from the only setup it works in) and overshadow a lot of stamina types too. I do have to say that I think it would be healthier for the format than Metal Fury Scythe is (heck, even having the both of them together would be better than just having Scythe), just because it's offensive rather than defensive.

Fusion: While it hasn't been tested in Limited, at 44g before a clear wheel (so ~47g with one), Fusion is a whopping 10g heavier than every other legal wheel aside from Libra (and soon, Omega), and the one combo that it found use in that I remember was a Defense custom. It's therefore probably safe to assume it's going to be way too strong defensively for Limited.

Jade: Jade probably deserves being tested. It was banned as a precaution (and for the convenient "all 4D are banned, which is about to go out the window with Omega), as with a 3 gram clear wheel it's slightly heavier than Libra, which is already one of the strongest wheels in the format, and it is generally defensive which is a risk for a significant portion of the format's wheels.
If someone wants to test it, Defense, Anti-Attack and maybe some cursory attack and stamina tests (unless it's completely awful at them, in which case those two could probably be skipped) would be needed, but to be honest given it's kinda a defensive wheel it is probably not what the format needs right now.

And the stuff that saw significant use in Standard in setups that translate easily to Limited:

Duo/Death: Both are immovable by and able to OS the whole format.
Basalt/Diablo/Wing: Their weight means the entire format bounces off them as defense combos. Basalt and Diablo are both able to KO basically the whole format in Attack, while Wing LTDC are particularly hard to budge.
Variares/Blitz/Flash: Able to KO the entire format with ease (even MY variares!)
Phantom/Scythe: Both Wheels' combination of Attack, Stamina and Weight make them far too powerful for limited. Scythe is also ridiculously good at Low Track Defense.
Jan. 16, 2014  4:04 PM
 
Finally. That was refreshing.

I wouldn't be too comfortable with unbanning L-Drago Destroy any time soon (if ever), just because of the fact the LDD F230GCF would be a serious step in the wrong direction in my opinion. Being relatively easy to KO with a well-placed Attack combo, I'm cool with Meteo F230 hanging around (as long as it doesn't cause any trouble in tournaments), but IMO taking it and increasing its weight/lowering its recoil is asking for trouble.

I could see Jade becoming legal at some point, just because of how obscenely high its recoil is from below (I can almost guarantee Bakushin and Libra would leave it in the dust as far as Defense goes), and how terrible its Stamina is. I could maybe see it becoming viable-ish on a couple Attack setups, but hey, the more the merrier.

It's like 4D's Poison. It's got a recoilly shape, and weight in all the wrong places.
Jan. 16, 2014  4:10 PM
 
I'm for keeping LDD banned. Like TBD said, while we have F230CF/GCF around, it's not safe. I do think Jade and Fusion will unbanned. TBH, Fusion doesn't really scare me. I'm 100% keeping Kries banned. It does have really good powers. Kinda like another Scythe for the format. Thanks th!nk, it's kinda what I thought too, haha.
Jan. 16, 2014  6:12 PM
 
Thanks Th!nk, that should help the questions that keep coming up multiple times.

Even though I'm currently opposed to unbanning LDD and a maybe on Jade, I'd like to see testing on them.
Jan. 16, 2014  9:55 PM
 
(Jan. 16, 2014  4:04 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: I could see Jade becoming legal at some point, just because of how obscenely high its recoil is from below (I can almost guarantee Bakushin and Libra would leave it in the dust as far as Defense goes), and how terrible its Stamina is. I could maybe see it becoming viable-ish on a couple Attack setups, but hey, the more the merrier.

It's like 4D's Poison. It's got a recoilly shape, and weight in all the wrong places.

Ingulit and I were testing out Jade as Force Smash material some time ago, so I dug out MF-M Jade Pisces 230RB, and threw it at some Libra combos. Libra basically ignored Jade, and although it made some scrapey noises that made me fear for my Libra's paint, it did next to nothing. The main issue is that on 230, Jade is smashing the opponent down, but Newton's laws state that Jade will also be launched up. Given that the opponent is getting pushed into the ground, and Jade is being thrown into the air, Jade is unable to be effective. Gryph Gryph E230BSF (or whatever the tip was) is able to succeed where Jade failed because of its greater weight, and the introduction of E230. Since Jade is too light, and E230 is illegal, it will probably not have too much use in Force Smash. I can see it potentially being used in some kind of OHKO combo due to its high rotational speed, but other than that I fell it's essentially harmless to the meta; Jade is just not able to do anything other than Attack well, and even at that it kinda sucks.


TL;DR Jade should be unbanned because it's too pathetic to be dangerous to the integrity of the meta.
Jan. 17, 2014  3:03 AM
 
Then guys, PLEASE get your stuff out at TEST TEST TEST! I would love to have another wheel in the format but you know the rules!

As for LDD, I agree that F230(G)CF is a very good reason to keep it banned (personally at this point I'd actually like to ban F230 tbh), however do remember that Metal Fury LDG is still one of the heaviest wheels in the format. Someone should test that, even if its balance sucks Tongue_out

@TBD's "Finally": Yeah I should've done it sooner but I'm sure you know how things are when you've got a hundred projects on the go Tongue_out
Jan. 17, 2014  3:08 AM
 
Pfft, as allways, I'll test. Just tell me the set up and I'm ready to go, haha.
Jan. 17, 2014  3:14 AM
 
Oh, right, I guess you having it skipped my mind man - still not used to having someone like you around haha Tongue_out Well, my main instinct is MF-H Jade Aquario/Cygnus GB145RSF, MF-H Jade Aquario/Cygnus (LowTrack)RSF, both vs Attack (generally a 145-height that can hit LTDC, say MSF-H Thief Phoenic H145RF/LRF/R2F? That is honestly a good benchmarking combo if we're going to lose gravity. MF-H Pegasis CH120RF is also good, particularly against the LTDC) and then MF-H Jade Aquario/Cygnus CH120RF vs Defense+MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK>DEF) R145RF (Left), basically, testing it as an anti-attack custom.
Jan. 17, 2014  3:40 AM
 
Fake tests (Click to View)
WBO Committee: It was recently brought to our attention that all tests by Crescent in this topic are fabricated. We urge you to forget their results and that someone trustworthy conduct the actual tests for the sake of this metagame.
Jan. 18, 2014  12:39 AM
 
(Jan. 17, 2014  3:03 AM)th!nk Wrote: @TBD's "Finally": Yeah I should've done it sooner but I'm sure you know how things are when you've got a hundred projects on the go Tongue_out

Oh no no... I meant "Finally, the repetitive questions will stop." XD I didn't mean to sound like I was impatient for you to finish up.

Anyway, I have a big proposal to make here.


As most of you know, we have 3 specific customs looming over the Limited format meta at the moment that could seriously hurt competition. These three customs are 1) MF-H Scythe Pegasis II CH120RF, 2) MF-H Gravity Perseus T125/D125GCF/CF, and 3) (MF-H) Gravity Perseus F230CF/GCF.


All these customs need to be disabled simultaneously (as the ban of only one would simply lead to the dominance of the other(s) becoming far more prominent/damaging to the format), and I have a very simple, effective way that I think we can do that.


The ultimate goal of this proposal:

My ultimate goal for this update would be for us to ban the previously stated customs, without hurting the large portion of Gravity-based customs already legal in this format, or Meteo F230CF/GCF customs.

A cut from my previous post on my views concerning conventional Gravity Spin-Equalizers/Attackers:

Quote:On the subject of Gravity, I oppose its ban. In my honest opinion, given 1) the fact that it truly is not the highest powered Attack wheel in the format, 2) the fact that, in a tournament situation and with an average launch, it will lose consistently to LTDC, 3) the fact that RF Defense can easily take it out, and 4) the fact that RB is being reintroduced, that Gravity Attack types are not unhealthy for this format. They work consistently against MTDC, and HTDC, both of which Lightning and Beat cover. Regardless of your 50-60% wins rates against Earth LTDC ( I would like to note that Bakushin can easily take it out), you will not win in a tournament scenario without an extreme degree of luck.

Overall, it is not really much more effective than other options. I would just as soon use Lightning, Beat, Cosmic, Phoenic or Omega as I would use Gravity.

Gravity spin-equalizers, though they are effective, are not unhealthy for the format in my opinion. Gravity EWD is easily countered with an Attack type, no matter how weak you launch it. The idea that these customs choke the use of other Stamina Metal Wheels could be true, or it could not. The fact is, in a match with Earth 85EWD vs. Gravity 85EWD, Earth will most likely win regardless of what spin direction the opponent uses. Its weight distribution is quite undesirable for a spin stealer in and of itself, and I honestly don't think conventional Stamina will become unviable.

Again, depending on the situation, I would definitely use other competitive Stamina wheels over Gravity it I had the option. I just really don't think the Stamina meta will take a beating from Gravity. Just because it's good isn't a reason to ilegalize it. As long as it isn't dominating/choking the use of other wheels (which is hasn't yet), then IMO we should just leave it alone.

Again, we've only had like, what, 5 limited tournaments? All in different places? So I could definitely be wrong, or I could be right. This is one of those subjects that's a little cloudy, and we just have to wait and see what happens before we take action.


Overall, I don't think Gravity is overpowered when used with conventional Attack/Stamina customs. If tournaments become extremely Gravity-prevalent, then we need to determine something. We need to figure out if it's actually Gravity's competitive application, and the players feel compelled to use it out of fear, or if it's simply the mindset/preference of the players.

If everyone simply likes Gravity and enjoys using it (which was the cause if its use in NC), then we can't change that. They'll keep using Gravity as long as they enjoy using Gravity. However, if the root of the problem is purely competitive, then something needs to be done.

That said, I honestly think that only the 3 above stated customs are the problem here (and perhaps Scythe RSF Defense, though I am cloudy on that subject, and this proposal will rid us of that anyway).

Fortunately, this proposal will actually rid us of the Gravity F230 customs, without losing us the Meteo F230 customs, which are by no means broken and, in my humble opinion, an entertaining addition to the format.


The Proposal:

After a lot of thinking on the subject I struck an idea that I think will solve this problem completely:

January 2014 Update Wrote:Newly Banned
  • WHEEL: Scythe
  • BOTTOM: CF (For use with the Gravity Metal Wheel)
  • BOTTOM: GCF (For use with the Gravity Metal Wheel)

Newly Unbanned
  • BOTTOM: RB
  • WHEEL: Omega

This gets rid of all three of said customs, while allowing the conventional Gravity customs and the Meteo F230 customs to be used.

Another concern I've heard was the fact that CF/GCF are not broken in and of themselves, and can be very nice parts to use on plenty of innovative customs. As this only prohibits the use of CF/GCF with Gravity, those customs will still be allowed, while getting rid of the dual-spin aspect that makes CF/GCF so overpowered.


I honestly think that this is the best option we have for the January update, and I would absolutely love to see this happen.

Thoughts?
Jan. 18, 2014  1:09 AM
 
The issue is that generally we don't like to do complex bans, gotta remember kids have to understand the rules and so on. Also given F230 is putting up scary numbers at the moment it may take itself out of the picture soon enough anyway. If that happens, I'm sure we'd look at whether gravity could be reintroduced, admittedly d125cf/gcf is strong but I'm still not sure it's practical enough to be as big a threat as the testing suggests.
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