I've seen Hades before. It has use in Stamina, Defense and Attack. If you take it back, you'll ruin Limited trust me. From my testing, Hades managed to OS Scythe by a few rounds.
MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)
Has F230(CF/GCF) even caused any problems at all thus far, especially with Gravity? I'm not done reading everything I missed while I was away, but thus far I haven't seen any tests to back up the constant cries that it's in any way broken. Gravity F230(CF/GCF) doesn't even have a thread, haha!
If I missed some tests and someone could point me toward where they were posted I'd really appreciate it, but as of right now it seems like people are asking for its ban before we have any reason to actually do it xD
EDIT: Okay, I'm seeing the tournament results now, and I can see where some people were soloing tournaments with Gravity F230. I'm still of the opinion that the problem is Gravity rather than F230, though; Gravity seems to be causing way more problems than its worth, and I'd rather just cut off the tumor rather than surgically remove more total parts just to keep it legal.
If I missed some tests and someone could point me toward where they were posted I'd really appreciate it, but as of right now it seems like people are asking for its ban before we have any reason to actually do it xD
EDIT: Okay, I'm seeing the tournament results now, and I can see where some people were soloing tournaments with Gravity F230. I'm still of the opinion that the problem is Gravity rather than F230, though; Gravity seems to be causing way more problems than its worth, and I'd rather just cut off the tumor rather than surgically remove more total parts just to keep it legal.
From retirement I still read and want to say this:
I go for TheBlackDragon banning CF/GCF instead of two unrelated parts, it's more logical and practical, because two parts can do more versatile and different the game, they are not broken, maybe gravity can be a pain but is not unbeatable
Leone19: remember Dark Knight with other chrome wheels for F230CF/GCF, but has I said: ban CF/GCF instead of F230, the custom "F230CF/GCF" could be an option to ban if there are useful combos with CF/GCF that not break the game
RDF and RS are IMPOSSIBLE to unban because are the best defense tips in the matter that RDF is really versatile and RS... well... testings says it all
RB could be unbanned but NEEDS testing (I saw someone actually made one!)
For stamina tips is ridiculous to ban them, a clean hit of an attack type should do the work, a breaking game tip should beat its disadvantages has well
for Libra, I don't think it's necessary to ban it, it's not unbeatable, just have good combos
well, that's all I can say
PS: I would like to see SA165 unbanned just to use MF Meteo L-Drago SA165EWD in this format! but well, you can't have all in life :P
I go for TheBlackDragon banning CF/GCF instead of two unrelated parts, it's more logical and practical, because two parts can do more versatile and different the game, they are not broken, maybe gravity can be a pain but is not unbeatable
Leone19: remember Dark Knight with other chrome wheels for F230CF/GCF, but has I said: ban CF/GCF instead of F230, the custom "F230CF/GCF" could be an option to ban if there are useful combos with CF/GCF that not break the game
RDF and RS are IMPOSSIBLE to unban because are the best defense tips in the matter that RDF is really versatile and RS... well... testings says it all
RB could be unbanned but NEEDS testing (I saw someone actually made one!)
For stamina tips is ridiculous to ban them, a clean hit of an attack type should do the work, a breaking game tip should beat its disadvantages has well
for Libra, I don't think it's necessary to ban it, it's not unbeatable, just have good combos
well, that's all I can say
PS: I would like to see SA165 unbanned just to use MF Meteo L-Drago SA165EWD in this format! but well, you can't have all in life :P
I agree with Ingulit. If we see testing on F230 CF/GCF then we'll see if it needs banning. I really don't like suggestions without at least 1 test.
I would ban both F230 and GCF/CF because F230GF from my informal tests dominate.
![[Image: shining_sig.jpg]](https://s25.postimg.org/ni454yfgv/shining_sig.jpg)
@th!nk's huge post: Well (and here comes another crazy comment), I actually don't find Scythe that good for Defense at all.
Yup, I said it. I did some testing against Cosmic, Gravity and Lightning, and Earth made it look like trash. Like, seriously. I had a Gravity Attack type launch it across the room like 4 times in a row, and then, when I was getting up to reach for Scythe, and did a double take, and lo and behold I realized that Gravity had been in Defense mode the whole time. I really don't know how people are getting those kinds of results. Earth was getting win rate 50% higher against all my attackers consistently (and that was with me actually attempting to give Scythe an advantage). I really don't see the potential at all.
As for Scythe CH120RF (which I assume is the combo you are saying is broken), have any of you guys tried lower track combos against it? Earth/Libra LTDC and LTSC will stomp on its grave. Like, every time. By a MILE. There might be something wrong with my Scythe, because I am definitely not getting ban-worthy results on any setup. :\
Now, one more insane comment that will probably destroy my reputation... I've actually found that weak-launching against Lightning doesn't work. Aaaaaaand the reaction... lemme give you a few seconds to cool down... Alright, now, if you're back up on your chair and you're breathing again, let me explain:
I've done extensive testing with Lightning against Defense, launching the defender at all different strengths, and I actually found that Lightning could KO a defender launched at around 60% easier than it could KO one launched at 100%. Of course, there's a launch involved. If one does the wide-ish sweeping launch used for most left-spin combos, Lightning will destroy weak-launched right-spin Defense like nobody's business. If one straight-up banks, it'll still win occasionally, but not as easily as against a defender launched at 90-100%.
Of course, this is the proper launch to use with all left-spin Attack types, so it shouldn't be taken as a "catch" to Lightning's advantage. That simply what I've found in my personal testing. It could've a long-winded fluke or something, since it pretty much contradicts all logic, but I wouldn't be too worried with Lighting against a weak-launched Defense type.
Yes, I own the Attack version of Perseus, and I truly and honestly find Lighting, Cosmic, and Beat all more effective overall in terms of pure smash. That's just my personal experience. Even if it's about even with Lightning for most people, I can be just about 100% sure that Cosmic will undoubtedly make it look wimpy for anyone who tries it. Probably by a very notable amount.
Just to let you guys know, I'm completely sane. I didn't eat anything weird, and I'm not making any of this stuff up. XD I hope that didn't shock anyone too much...
Ingulit: I have done extensive informal testing with Gravity F230GCF, and it is absolutely unbreakable. If you get lucky with a super-high powered Attack type and the user is crazy enough not to weak launch, you have a chance, but F230 in dual spin is such a ridiculous monster that I don't think it should be tolerated.
In fact, if it were me I would honestly call an "emergency" ban on it. Like, right this second. It's that insane.
Plus, how could it not be a problem? Dragooon F230 is so utterly dominant in Zero-G that it basically renders anything in the user's meta virtually useless except other right-spin F230 customs.
In Standard, it's not much of a problem, but mostly because Left-spin Stamina has a shot at OSing it. With Gravity, first of all, Meteo is carp for pure Stamina (ever more so that Dragooon), and secondly, Gravity can spin two ways! It doesn't have to deal with same-spin Stamina, because it goes both directions!
I honestly think it's common sense to see how overpowered it would be, even if you haven't tested it at all.
That's just my two cents. Sorry if I sounded rude or anything... XD I have a problem expressing my opinions.
Yup, I said it. I did some testing against Cosmic, Gravity and Lightning, and Earth made it look like trash. Like, seriously. I had a Gravity Attack type launch it across the room like 4 times in a row, and then, when I was getting up to reach for Scythe, and did a double take, and lo and behold I realized that Gravity had been in Defense mode the whole time. I really don't know how people are getting those kinds of results. Earth was getting win rate 50% higher against all my attackers consistently (and that was with me actually attempting to give Scythe an advantage). I really don't see the potential at all.
As for Scythe CH120RF (which I assume is the combo you are saying is broken), have any of you guys tried lower track combos against it? Earth/Libra LTDC and LTSC will stomp on its grave. Like, every time. By a MILE. There might be something wrong with my Scythe, because I am definitely not getting ban-worthy results on any setup. :\
Now, one more insane comment that will probably destroy my reputation... I've actually found that weak-launching against Lightning doesn't work. Aaaaaaand the reaction... lemme give you a few seconds to cool down... Alright, now, if you're back up on your chair and you're breathing again, let me explain:
I've done extensive testing with Lightning against Defense, launching the defender at all different strengths, and I actually found that Lightning could KO a defender launched at around 60% easier than it could KO one launched at 100%. Of course, there's a launch involved. If one does the wide-ish sweeping launch used for most left-spin combos, Lightning will destroy weak-launched right-spin Defense like nobody's business. If one straight-up banks, it'll still win occasionally, but not as easily as against a defender launched at 90-100%.
Of course, this is the proper launch to use with all left-spin Attack types, so it shouldn't be taken as a "catch" to Lightning's advantage. That simply what I've found in my personal testing. It could've a long-winded fluke or something, since it pretty much contradicts all logic, but I wouldn't be too worried with Lighting against a weak-launched Defense type.
Yes, I own the Attack version of Perseus, and I truly and honestly find Lighting, Cosmic, and Beat all more effective overall in terms of pure smash. That's just my personal experience. Even if it's about even with Lightning for most people, I can be just about 100% sure that Cosmic will undoubtedly make it look wimpy for anyone who tries it. Probably by a very notable amount.
Just to let you guys know, I'm completely sane. I didn't eat anything weird, and I'm not making any of this stuff up. XD I hope that didn't shock anyone too much...
Ingulit: I have done extensive informal testing with Gravity F230GCF, and it is absolutely unbreakable. If you get lucky with a super-high powered Attack type and the user is crazy enough not to weak launch, you have a chance, but F230 in dual spin is such a ridiculous monster that I don't think it should be tolerated.
In fact, if it were me I would honestly call an "emergency" ban on it. Like, right this second. It's that insane.
Plus, how could it not be a problem? Dragooon F230 is so utterly dominant in Zero-G that it basically renders anything in the user's meta virtually useless except other right-spin F230 customs.
In Standard, it's not much of a problem, but mostly because Left-spin Stamina has a shot at OSing it. With Gravity, first of all, Meteo is carp for pure Stamina (ever more so that Dragooon), and secondly, Gravity can spin two ways! It doesn't have to deal with same-spin Stamina, because it goes both directions!
I honestly think it's common sense to see how overpowered it would be, even if you haven't tested it at all.
That's just my two cents. Sorry if I sounded rude or anything... XD I have a problem expressing my opinions.
![[Image: 68vfxj.jpg]](https://oi57.tinypic.com/68vfxj.jpg)
I'll go on the record and say that I agree with basically everything TBD just said. Make room on that stake TBD, I'm gonna be there when it burns xD
Scythe has not been giving me ban-worthy results at all defensively or offensively, and though the proponents of it being banned have been putting up truly scary numbers (I want to emphasize that heavily, as the test results are both trustworthy and concerning), I've simply not had that experience when I've tried it. I have not tried MF-H Scythe ___ CH120RF against LTSC/LTDC yet, so I can't comment on that with any degree of authority, but from my experiences using similar customs (primarily MF-L Scythe Cygnus 100MF, a custom I've been testing for awhile now but didn't post specifically because I couldn't get KOs against LTDC/LTSC), I can't see how LTSC/LTDC wouldn't cause that custom significant problems.
I've also honestly never found weak launching to help defensively in MFB, though like TBD I know that goes against the established norm of this board and that I'm likely staring down a firing squad for saying it, haha!
Scythe has not been giving me ban-worthy results at all defensively or offensively, and though the proponents of it being banned have been putting up truly scary numbers (I want to emphasize that heavily, as the test results are both trustworthy and concerning), I've simply not had that experience when I've tried it. I have not tried MF-H Scythe ___ CH120RF against LTSC/LTDC yet, so I can't comment on that with any degree of authority, but from my experiences using similar customs (primarily MF-L Scythe Cygnus 100MF, a custom I've been testing for awhile now but didn't post specifically because I couldn't get KOs against LTDC/LTSC), I can't see how LTSC/LTDC wouldn't cause that custom significant problems.
I've also honestly never found weak launching to help defensively in MFB, though like TBD I know that goes against the established norm of this board and that I'm likely staring down a firing squad for saying it, haha!
I don't know why you guys find F230 (CF/GCF) so dominant. In my opinion, it truly is easy to take down in standard and limited.
A much as I hate to say it, maybe Gravity being banned for now wouldn't be such a bad thing. Right now it is pretty dominant. We just have to wait and see if banning it would positively or negatively affect the format.
Banning CF and GCF is a no from me. That's not what is making those combos dominant in my opinion, it's Gravity making them awesome.
As for banning Scythe, I'm indifferent about it at the moment. It's putting up some impressive numbers, so if it is, I would not care if it were banned or not.
Sorry for not adding much, I'm watching a movie.
A much as I hate to say it, maybe Gravity being banned for now wouldn't be such a bad thing. Right now it is pretty dominant. We just have to wait and see if banning it would positively or negatively affect the format.
Banning CF and GCF is a no from me. That's not what is making those combos dominant in my opinion, it's Gravity making them awesome.
As for banning Scythe, I'm indifferent about it at the moment. It's putting up some impressive numbers, so if it is, I would not care if it were banned or not.
Sorry for not adding much, I'm watching a movie
.
I put a rant about Gravity F230 in the above post. You should read it.
As for the ban of Gravity, I see three reasons to ban it at the moment:
1) It's Attack prowess
2) Gravity F230
3) Gravity _125GCF
As you know, I personally see no crazy Attack advantage in Gravity overal compared to Lightning, Beat and Cosmic, so that doesn't bother me at all.
What I am concerned about, is Gravity _125GCF/F230CF/GCF. To fix this, I suggested something a few posts back:
I would read the post a bit higher up, as it sheds more light on the idea and make me look like less of a lunatic, but I honestly think that removing these would cripple both of these problematic customs, and prevent anything of the same nature from coming up again later.
You should read it.As for the ban of Gravity, I see three reasons to ban it at the moment:
1) It's Attack prowess
2) Gravity F230
3) Gravity _125GCF
As you know, I personally see no crazy Attack advantage in Gravity overal compared to Lightning, Beat and Cosmic, so that doesn't bother me at all.
What I am concerned about, is Gravity _125GCF/F230CF/GCF. To fix this, I suggested something a few posts back:
TheBlackDragon Wrote:Let's ban CF/GCF!
I would read the post a bit higher up, as it sheds more light on the idea and make me look like less of a lunatic, but I honestly think that removing these would cripple both of these problematic customs, and prevent anything of the same nature from coming up again later.
Gravity is also an extremely potent spin stealer, even when it's not on F230(CF/GCF). MF-H Gravity Perseus[ATK] TR145RF can OS so many things it can't KO, and that's not even close to a dedicated spin steal setup. Its dual-spin versatility combined with its attack prowess and spin steal capabilities really pushes it over the top in my eyes, as there are so many customs on which Gravity is the obvious best choice such that banning it would open up the door for a wide variety of more specialized wheels/customs to take its place.
Without Gravity in the mix, I don't see CF/GCF being a big issue, and IMO if we have to ban anything it makes more sense to ban a single part (Gravity) to solve a problem than having to ban more than one part (CF and GCF) to do the same end result. Like has been said before, we want to keep this ban list as small as possible, and right now I'd rather just have to add Gravity than surgically ban a slew of other parts just to keep Gravity legal.
Without Gravity in the mix, I don't see CF/GCF being a big issue, and IMO if we have to ban anything it makes more sense to ban a single part (Gravity) to solve a problem than having to ban more than one part (CF and GCF) to do the same end result. Like has been said before, we want to keep this ban list as small as possible, and right now I'd rather just have to add Gravity than surgically ban a slew of other parts just to keep Gravity legal.
It's not a slew of other parts... It's just two, and they're virtually the same piece, bar a few minor differences.
You also don't get the same result. If you take away CF/GCF, you keep all the Gravity Attack types and spin-stealers. If you ban Gravity, that's honestly what's gonna cause the most uproar. It'll expose bigger problems, notably Libra 230CS.
Gravity TR145RF can't OS that many things. The things it can't KO are:
Earth/Libra RF Defense of all heights.
LTDC
MTDC
Some LTAC
It can't actually OS any of those via spin-steal. The only thing that really helps against is HTDC and other mid-height Attack types. I honestly don't think it's a problem at all...
Again, while discussing this we should keep in mind anyone (including myself) could be completely wrong about different parts' effects on the game, since this is honestly an extremely premature period in the format's history. We don't really know how tournaments will look like. We've only had like 4, and they were all quite different.
You also don't get the same result. If you take away CF/GCF, you keep all the Gravity Attack types and spin-stealers. If you ban Gravity, that's honestly what's gonna cause the most uproar. It'll expose bigger problems, notably Libra 230CS.
Gravity TR145RF can't OS that many things. The things it can't KO are:
Earth/Libra RF Defense of all heights.
LTDC
MTDC
Some LTAC
It can't actually OS any of those via spin-steal. The only thing that really helps against is HTDC and other mid-height Attack types. I honestly don't think it's a problem at all...
Again, while discussing this we should keep in mind anyone (including myself) could be completely wrong about different parts' effects on the game, since this is honestly an extremely premature period in the format's history. We don't really know how tournaments will look like. We've only had like 4, and they were all quite different.
As much as I don't like Gravity being banned I am definitely in favor of Ingulit's idea over all these parts that them being combined with Gravity is the only "problem"
![[Image: TBC_Coach.png]](https://s27.postimg.org/wcxl5x66r/TBC_Coach.png)
... It's not "all these parts." It's just two, that are almost identical, so it's more like 1 or 1 and 1/2.
I use CF/GCF on Guardian TR145, Wyatt uses GCF on other attack beys why should those not be allowed? TBH nobody except TBD has a problem w Gravity F230CF...
Um.. what?... no...
Gravity F230 is no problem? Seriously? Have you actually tested it yet? Like, at all? Do you own an Orange F230?
I use Gravity on Attack types, and so do all my friends. Why should that not be allowed?
Gravity F230 is no problem? Seriously? Have you actually tested it yet? Like, at all? Do you own an Orange F230?
I use Gravity on Attack types, and so do all my friends. Why should that not be allowed?
That would make things a little complicated.
Someone suggested banning GCF/CF with use on F230 in Zero-G format, but it was rejected. :\
Someone suggested banning GCF/CF with use on F230 in Zero-G format, but it was rejected. :\
Time to join. I think F230 GCF/CF doesn't need banned yet. They're are easy ways to win this thing. If you're saying "Ban it" you must of not tested it with mostof your beys.
Making stuff banned just because it wins some stuff doesn't mean it needs banned. If it's in Left Spin, you chuck in something in the other direction.
I'm to say, this doesn't need banned. Go play with your parts for the answer.
Not to be rude, just a little tired that's all.
Making stuff banned just because it wins some stuff doesn't mean it needs banned. If it's in Left Spin, you chuck in something in the other direction.
I'm to say, this doesn't need banned. Go play with your parts for the answer.
Not to be rude, just a little tired that's all.
I honestly don't know...
That's just what the big shots said, and they make the calls. XD
That's just what the big shots said, and they make the calls. XD
Well right here we have some saying "Keep it!" and some "Ban it!" The best answer is up to the big shots. I'm sure Ingulit takes evrything we say and puts it to use. Oh, also, if you're gonna say ban it. It'dbe nice to say why. Not to just let people guess, haha. I'm up for keeping F230 GCF/CF for this list. It's not that hard! It's also not that hard to think. I think Gravity needs banned. Why?: It's not that its "Over-powered" it's that most people are using it for attack. I think if it was banned. We could start looking a new customs at tournaments. Improving our Attack Types.
(Jan. 08, 2014 1:31 AM)" L Wrote: Well right here we have some saying "Keep it!" and some "Ban it!" The best answer is up to the big shots. I'm sure Ingulit takes evrything we say and puts it to use. Oh, also, if you're gonna say ban it. It'dbe nice to say why. Not to just let people guess, haha. I'm up for keeping F230 GCF/CF for this list. It's not that hard! It's also not that hard to think. I think Gravity needs banned. Why?: It's not that its "Over-powered" it's that most people are using it for attack. I think if it was banned. We could start looking a new customs at tournaments. Improving our Attack Types.
Well honestly Gravity only does slightly better in attack... and before we ban anything I think there should be thorough testing with it. There have been tests don't get me wrong, but LTDC simply overpower Gravity.
We have plenty of testing. I know it gets over-powered by LTDC, but we don't really have that much Defense wheels. If you go back to the tournament reports, you'll see Gravity, Gravity, Gravity. I think it has alot of testing, it's not that strrong, but people keep using it and I think banning it for this list will help us see how a new Limited format does with out it.
(Jan. 08, 2014 1:40 AM)" L Wrote: We have plenty of testing. I know it gets over-powered by LTDC, but we don't really have that much Defense wheels. If you go back to the tournament reports, you'll see Gravity, Gravity, Gravity. I think it has alot of testing, it's not that strrong, but people keep using it and I think banning it for this list will help us see how a new Limited format does with out it.
People spam it because there are few counters, but the wheel itself isn't to the "basalt level." I'm more neutral on this. I would just like to see more tests and have it not be a premature ban.
I know that, TBH, it has got a few counters. What tests could you want? I'm pretty sure they're plenty to work on. It is not near "Basalts level" For sure. I think it just needs banned, not that it's 'strong' but because (you said your self) it's spammed to much. Thus giving us, really, no improvment in attack in Limited and some Data.