[LTD] MF-H Gravity Perseus (Stamina) 85RB

MF-H Gravity Perseus (Stamina) 85RB

This is one of the Gravity combos I was planning on posting once it got unbanned. Hopefully this will encourage people to branch out to more creative, non-F230GCF versions this time round.

Concept
This combo is a Dual-Spin Low Track Defense Combo (LTDC). As Limited stands now, most Attack types will lose to LTDC, except for combos with high amounts of Smash Attack like MF-H Pegasis R145RF, MF-H Cosmic Kerbecs SW145RF, and MSF-H ____ Wyvang (Crystal Up) H145RSF, which effectively makes them "Anti-Defense Attackers" (not an actual term). For a long time, Dark Knight variants of the Wyvang combo dominated the Meta, until Right Spin LTDC were never given a chance to shown to beat them. This combo is essentially supposed to do the same thing, but rather to Right Spin Smash (since Dark Knight LTDC is no longer an option).
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Parts choice
  • MF-H: For weight, which makes the combo more difficult to KO.
  • Perseus (Stamina): The most Defensive of the Persei, and I also think the heaviest? Either way it blocks those topside contact points on Gravity and lowers the recoil it takes.
  • Gravity: The main part of the combo, because the Dual Spin means you can Weak Launch vs all Attack Types. It's also got that semi-bowl-like shape that Bakushin has, which is good at deflecting hits. I used the heavier variant of Mold 1 Gravity, so these tests don't apply to the smoother but lighter Mold 2 Gravity which may or may not be better.
  • 85:The shortest Spin Track available. Makes the combo as short as possible to maximize the amount of low-recoil hits Perseus takes, and having a lower Center of Gravity (COG) also gives it slightly better Precession. I guess you could go up to 90 or 100 if scraping is an issue, but I didn't find it to be one.
  • RB: While I'm normally not a huge proponent of RB for Defense combos, it's probably the best option for this combo as it has the widest surface area compared to other Defense Tips (aside from CS, but I found that RB's grip is a little more helpful for a higher Recoil Wheel like Gravity). I usually complain about RB skipping the Tornado Ridge when it gets hit hard enough because it's a ball, but as this combo is mainly Weak Launched there usually isn't enough force from hits to knock it back that far in the first place.


The Launch
  • Vs. Attack: Switch to the opposite Spin Direction as them and Weak Launch. If by some chance you are getting outspun by them, switch to same Spin and launch moderately. If you happen upon a Gravity Attacker, a mindgame ensues.
  • Vs. Defense: Depends, how tall is it? Against opposing LTDC Opposite Spin Weak Launch is worth a shot, but there's a chance you'll get outspun by other CS/RB combos. Against 145-height stuff Opposite Spin Weak Launch and you should OS them. Against TH220/230 you're kinda screwed unless you can pull off a KO in Same Spin, which isn't very likely since you're on 85 and also using the Stamina Perseus
  • Vs. Stamina: Go Same Spin so they can't Weak Launch, and go for the KO.
  • Vs. Staller: Opposite Spin, and moderate Launch. If you don't secret sauce them you should be able to get the OS over MF (and HF/S), but WF/XF/CF/GCF/XF are going to give you problems if you don't KO them. For GF I would probably go Same Spin and OS them normally.

Procedure
20 Rounds for each matchup aside from Left Spin Perseus vs Stamina as that was pretty one sided.
BB-10 used
Right Spin & Left Spin String Launchers used
Gravity always Launched first, except for against Stamina, where it was Sliding Shot
Gravity always Weak Launched in Opposite Spin vs Attack
Attack Types always Sliding Shot
Self-KOs not counted, this was my first time launching a Beyblade in like a month so my Sliding Shoot was kinda rusty

Testing

MF-H Gravity Stamina 85RB vs. MF-H Pegasis R145RF
Gravity: 18 wins (2 KO, 16 OS)
Pegasis: 2 wins (2 KO)
Gravity win rate: 90%

MF-H Gravity Stamina 85RB vs. MF-H Lightning L-Drago 90RF
Gravity: 10 wins (2 KO, 8 OS)
LLD: 10 wins (7 KO, 3 OS)
1 tie redone
Gravity win rate: 50%
I guess I underestimated the amount of power LLD had horizontally, I've mainly been treating it as an Upper Wheel. I expected it to fare better than Pegasis, but not this well. Gravity may also have more horizontal Recoil than I give it credit for.

MF-H Gravity Stamina 85RB vs. MF-H Quetzalcoatl 85RF
Gravity: 16 wins (3 KO, 13 OS)
Quetz: 4 wins (4 KO)
1 tie redone
Gravity win rate: 80%
Gravity sits so low on the Spin Track that I couldn't get Quetz under it once even on 85, whereas Quetz was able to beat Jade 85RSF in my other thread by both KO and OS. Opposite Spin definitely helped to contributed to Gravity's wins too.

MF-H Gravity Stamina (Left) 85RB vs. MF-L Earth Sagittario II 230EDS
Earth: 10 wins (all OS)
Gravity: 0 wins
Gravity win rate: 0%
Between being on 85, having the Stamina Perseus, and getting Weak Launched against Gravity really couldn't do much against Earth 230. Flame 230 is probably even better against it.

MF-H Gravity Stamina (Right) 85RB vs. MF-L Earth Sagittario II 230EDS
Earth: 17 wins (all OS)
Gravity: 3 wins (all KO)
Gravity win rate: 15%
More or less the same story for Same Spin. One of Gravity's KOs was a freak late game KO.

MF-H Gravity Stamina (Left) 85RB vs. MF-L Earth Sagittario II 90WD
Earth: 9 wins (all OS)
Gravity: 1 win
Gravity win rate: 5%
Fared a little better against an opponent that was more within its Attack range. There were a few other hits that put Earth in danger, and someone more skilled with RB Attack would probably score higher here.

MF-H Gravity Stamina (Right) 85RB vs. MF-L Earth Sagittario II 90WD
Earth: 9 wins (1 KO, 8 OS)
Gravity: 11 wins (all KO)
Gravity win rate: 55%
Even with the Stamina Perseus Gravity was able to net some solid KOs against same height Stamina. Earth's 1 KO was from a Recoil KO/Wall Save.

Benchmarks feat. MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF
I think these are the first legitimate tests for this Bakushin combo, lol

MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF vs. MF-H Pegasis R45RF
Bakushin: 13 wins (6 KO, 7 OS)
Pegasis: 7 wins (5 KO, 2 OS)
Bakushin win rate: 65% (compared to Gravity's 90%)
So Pegasis usually wins this one for me, but I chalk this loss to me being out of practice on my Sliding Shoot and my general inconsistency with Pegasis. Some days it's a crazy horse and on other days it's a recoily mess, today just happened to be one of the recoily mess days.

MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF vs. MF-H Lightning L-Drago 90RF
Bakushin: 16 wins (6 KO, 10 OS)
LLD: 4 wins (3 KO, 1 OS)
3 ties redone
Bakushin win rate: 80% (compared to Gravity's 50%)
This match reminded me why I love Bakushin, and LTAC vs LTDC battles in general haha. It was genuinely a fun test to do despite being rather one sided.

MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF vs. MF-H Quetzalcoatl 85RF
Bakushin: 15 wins (2 KO, 13 OS)
Quetz: 5 wins (5 KO)
Bakushin win rate: 75% (compared to Gravity's 80%)
Yeah, turns out Bakushin's shape makes it pretty difficult for Quetz to get underneath as well. The overhang from Bakushin and Gravity kinda cancels out the overhang Quetz has to get under other short combos.


Overall
I think this combo is definitely worth considering for Top Tier, just because it can adapt to any direction of Attack. While it drestorys Pegasis and probably other Smash Attackers I don't think it chokes out the other viable LTDC options, seeing as Bakushin performed better vs Lightning. Once I get my hands on a Mold 2 Vulcan I'll have to test that vs Left Spin Gravity to see if it's particularly weak to horizontally-based Attack.
Awesome combo beyfriend. I tried it and it worked very well for me as attack too. also I wasnt expecting it from gravity. But it really can take hits just like you told beyhah.

Is there is anything i can test it against? I have some free time (so once i get all my launchers from friend then I can test it)
(Oct. 02, 2016  8:23 PM)Chaitanya Breed Wrote: Awesome combo beyfriend. I tried it and it worked very well for me as attack too. also I wasnt expecting it from gravity. But it really can take hits just like you told beyhah.

Is there is anything i can test it against? I have some free time (so once i get all my launchers from friend then I can test it)

Try it against MF-H Vulcan ____ 100RF, with Gravity Weak Launched in Left Spin. If it's possible, do a benchmark vs MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF too. That is, assuming you have the Mold 2 Vulcan from Random Booster 7.
GRAVITY WAS UNBANNED!!? I need to catch up ...

It's almost like the WBO is asking me to sweep every LTD format event ;-) (note the zero I have participated in)

Nice tests tho. Always love seeing interest in this format.
Used something similar to this at our Limited Format event in Toronto last weekend and placed second: MF-H Gravity Perseus (Attack) 90RB. Wanted more Attack power so I used the Perseus Attack Clear Wheel. It was pretty effective! Although of course, I had some trouble with F230CF opponents, but I was able to get a few KOs even then.
Bakushin 90RSF = pure defense and doesn't have any smash to stand a chance vs any good stamina combo, or tornado stall with HF, MF, F, attack type

so being almost a guarantee lost vs Stamina and Attack type I reckon its a not a top tier combo at all.
(Nov. 29, 2016  7:44 PM)Duwg Wrote: Bakushin 90RSF = pure defense and doesn't have any smash to stance a chance vs any good stamina combo, or tornado stall with HF, MF, F, attack type

so being almost a guarantee lost vs Stamina and Attack type it I reckon its a not a top tier combo at all.

But most Attack types use rubber tips like RF which have much less Stamina than the non-rubber flat tips. That's OK normally because the extra Attack power and recoil control is worth it, but against Defense types using RB/RSF, they can't KO the defender early on and end up losing.

Also, Using Bakushin with a more aggressive CW like Scorpio or Libra gives it much more Attack power, so it can easily KO some Stamina types and Attackers like you described, because without a rubber tip, Attack types are very vulnerable to other Attack types and even their own recoil.

If everyone in your area uses mostly Stamina types and MF/HF/F based Attack, then most rubber-tipped Defense won't work out so well for you. But as far as I know, most regional metas use RF, LRF, or R2F for Attack types, and so rubber-tipped Defense is necessary to be effective. The top-tier list isn't guaranteed to work 100% of the time in all regions, but it's a very good source for strong combos that work well in most places.
(Nov. 29, 2016  8:27 PM)Cake Wrote:
(Nov. 29, 2016  7:44 PM)Duwg Wrote: Bakushin 90RSF = pure defense and doesn't have any smash to stance a chance vs any good stamina combo, or tornado stall with HF, MF, F, attack type

so being almost a guarantee lost vs Stamina and Attack type it I reckon its a not a top tier combo at all.

But most Attack types use rubber tips like RF which have much less Stamina than the non-rubber flat tips. That's OK normally because the extra Attack power and recoil control is worth it, but against Defense types using RB/RSF, they can't KO the defender early on and end up losing.

Also, Using Bakushin with a more aggressive CW like Scorpio or Libra gives it much more Attack power, so it can easily KO some Stamina types and Attackers like you described, because without a rubber tip, Attack types are very vulnerable to other Attack types and even their own recoil.

If everyone in your area uses mostly Stamina types and MF/HF/F based Attack, then most rubber-tipped Defense won't work out so well for you. But as far as I know, most regional metas use RF, LRF, or R2F for Attack types, and so rubber-tipped Defense is necessary to be effective. The top-tier list isn't guaranteed to work 100% of the time in all regions, but it's a very good source for strong combos that work well in most places.

Well even with Leone Bakushin Leone 90RSF can most of stamina from 120 - 160. Thats the reason people use it over Eath 90RSF as not just it have more defence it can KO stamina types too
(Nov. 29, 2016  8:27 PM)Cake Wrote: Also, Using Bakushin with a more aggressive CW like Scorpio or Libra gives it much more Attack power, so it can easily KO some Stamina types and Attackers like you described, because without a rubber tip, Attack types are very vulnerable to other Attack types and even their own recoil.

I really think this is pure fantasy... Bakushin with RSF is not going to KO stamina type like Earth, Burn or Flame wheel with WD tips, it would really have to be a fluke with a bad launch from the other player.

Quote:Well even with Leone Bakushin Leone 90RSF can most of stamina from 120 - 160. Thats the reason people use it over Eath 90RSF as not just it have more defence it can KO stamina types too

I dont know about this, in my experience. Earth will always have more stamina than Bakushin.
(Nov. 29, 2016  7:44 PM)Duwg Wrote: Bakushin 90RSF = pure defense and doesn't have any smash to stand a chance vs any good stamina combo, or tornado stall with HF, MF, F, attack type

so being almost a guarantee lost vs Stamina and Attack type I reckon its a not a top tier combo at all.

Yes, it's a damn good Defense combo, but the goal of Defense is to beat Attack, not Stamina (though if it can beat Stamina too, that definitely helps). And Bakushin 90RSF matches up pretty well against most Limited Attackers. It's a bit weak to Smash Attackers like Cosmic, Pegasis or 145-height Wyvang, but those tend to be a bit riskier in tournaments than more Upper-oriented wheels like Lightning or Screw, which Bakushin handles pretty reliably.

To add on to what Cake said, just because a combo can't beat everything doesn't mean that it shouldn't be top tier. It just has to win consistently when it gets a good matchup, while still having at least a fighting chance against the rest of the meta.

(Nov. 30, 2016  5:50 AM)Duwg Wrote:
(Nov. 29, 2016  8:27 PM)Cake Wrote: Also, Using Bakushin with a more aggressive CW like Scorpio or Libra gives it much more Attack power, so it can easily KO some Stamina types and Attackers like you described, because without a rubber tip, Attack types are very vulnerable to other Attack types and even their own recoil.

I really think this is pure fantasy... Bakushin with RSF is not going to KO stamina type like Earth, Burn or Flame wheel with WD tips, it would really have to be a fluke with a bad launch from the other player.

Quote:Well even with Leone Bakushin Leone 90RSF can most of stamina from 120 - 160. Thats the reason people use it over Eath 90RSF as not just it have more defence it can KO stamina types too

I dont know about this, in my experience. Earth will always have more stamina than Bakushin.

If Bakushin RSF is launched with a particularly strong Sliding Shoot (the same launch that allows Earth Aquario 85WD to beat Earth Aquario 230WD, by the way), it's totally capable of KOing Earth, Burn, or Flame on WD. In tournaments, I've defeated Meteo B:D and Gravity B:D with it and when I practice using it I always make sure I can KO Earth and Burn Stamina in case I happen into that matchup by accident. Stallers are a bit trickier to take down, but it's certainly possible. In order to beat them you need to be able to read your opponent's launch well and accurately predict which side of the Tornado Ridge they are going to launch the Staller on. Then it's just a matter of launching Bakushin in a moderate semi-stall on the same side of the Tornado Ridge to ramp the opponent out. If the Bakushin player wins the match, it is more often than not due to a skillful launch by them rather than any mistakes made by the opponent (though like in all battles, you take what you can get).

Like FIREFIRE said, because of the differences in shape Bakushin is better suited to short Defense types than Earth. And while it's true that Earth has more Stamina than Bakushin, the difference between the two isn't actually as large as you seem to think.
ok, I played around with the combo for a couple of hours, I will accept that Bakushin did perform better than I expected.

while KO stamina types is possible, trying to score 3 points to win a match with it is very hard, usually it would loose 3-0 or 3-1

Note that Habsro's RSF is way better than Takara tomy's. Hasbro's seems grippier and provided much faster movement which improved the KO rate a lot vs stamina.

But for this type of RSF Combo, I would use Vulcan over Baskushin as you can easily KO any combo while still getting the same amount of stamina, the trade off is that recoil is higher vs attack type you get something like 50% win rate instead off 100% (with Bakushin) vs rubber attack type. I rather accept those odds than a 5-10% win rate vs Earth/Burn wheel

I checked out the Bakushin test page and I don't agree with your result. Earth would always beat Bakushin's stamina and the difference should be a lot greater, I don't think the sample size is big enough or perhaps a bit biased.
I personally dislike this combo but you can definitely KO stamina types with hard launches (I would never trust that in a tournament situation though, it's kind of like the zillion zeus situation Brad and Kei face, good results at home, terrible in tournament). Earth CS might be harder to KO though.

Edit: I'm basing my thoughts on Bakushin Gemios, not Bakushin Leone, using Leone lowers so much KO potential, so I would rather sacrifice a bit of defense for better chances of KOs.
(Dec. 01, 2016  9:30 AM)Duwg Wrote: ok, I played around with the combo for a couple of hours, I will accept that Bakushin did perform better than I expected.

while KO stamina types is possible, trying to score 3 points to win a match with it is very hard, usually it would loose 3-0 or 3-1

Note that Habsro's RSF is way better than Takara tomy's. Hasbro's seems grippier and provided much faster movement which improved the KO rate a lot vs stamina.

But for this type of RSF Combo, I would use Vulcan over Baskushin as you can easily KO any combo while still getting the same amount of stamina, the trade off is that recoil is higher vs attack type you get something like 50% win rate instead off 100% (with Bakushin) vs rubber attack type. I rather accept those odds than a 5-10% win rate vs Earth/Burn wheel

I checked out the Bakushin test page and I don't agree with your result. Earth would always beat Bakushin's stamina and the difference should be a lot greater, I don't think the sample size is big enough or perhaps a bit biased.

Well it's not meant to be attack type. Bakushin is a defence type but it can KO stamina with proper launch. While Vulcan is a pure attacker so its not fair comparison imo. I know both combo use RSF but both are completely different type of combos. Anyways I think we are going off-topic

BTW. I know found why I lost against soumadri at last event using this combo. My RB had dust on it and i didnt cleanned it + that day I wasn't able to weak launch properly for some reason (same reason I lost against Yash and Christopher in STD with Dragoon GF against there Zirago staller)

@Wombat yes I have Vulcan (mold 2) and I will test it as soon as I get my launcher (which I forgot at last event lol). BTW would you like me to test it against Cosmic (Metal Fury) and Screw?

Ronitnath told me that he used Cosmic in finals of Nov 5th (in kolkata, india) and won by 3-0 against arijit sarkar's MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF. Rayn Uchila (also from kolkata) told he KOEd bakushin with it too.

I tried cosmic too and was able to KO it (just not as consistantly).
(Dec. 01, 2016  2:10 PM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: Well it's not meant to be attack type. Bakushin is a defence type but it can KO stamina with proper launch. While Vulcan is a pure attacker so its not fair comparison imo. I know both combo use RSF but both are completely different type of combos. Anyways I think we are going off-topic

It can KO, but it won't win overall the match, which what matters.

Vulcan is not a pure attacker like spiral, cosmic etc. There is a chance to hit the smooth side of the bey, which greatly reducing the chance of self or double KO straight after the initial launch.

As a 2 sided bey Vulcan also have greater stamina than all other 3 sided bey, can spin just as long as Earth/Burn.

Comparing it with Bakushin another 2 sided bey I think is valid, vulcan will always out perform Bakushin with the RSF combo.
(Dec. 01, 2016  10:38 PM)Duwg Wrote:
(Dec. 01, 2016  2:10 PM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: Well it's not meant to be attack type. Bakushin is a defence type but it can KO stamina with proper launch. While Vulcan is a pure attacker so its not fair comparison imo. I know both combo use RSF but both are completely different type of combos. Anyways I think we are going off-topic

It can KO, but it won't win overall the match, which what matters.

Vulcan is not a pure attacker like spiral, cosmic etc. There is a chance to hit the smooth side of the bey, which greatly reducing the chance of self or double KO straight after the initial launch.

As a 2 sided bey Vulcan also have greater stamina than all other 3 sided bey, can spin just as long as Earth/Burn.

Comparing it with Bakushin another 2 sided bey I think is valid, vulcan will always out perform Bakushin with the RSF combo.

Bakushin is a Defense type. Vulcan is an Attack type. They do completely different things. I agree that Vulcan is effective against other Attackers, has great Stamina, and can KO Stamina easily, but Bakushin RSF is strictly a Defense combo. It uses its low height and sloped sides to resist attacks better than almost any other combo in Limited, but it's simply not designed to KO Stamina. Its primary task is beating Attack, which it does extremely well. Having at least a chance of winning against Stamina by KOing it is just an added bonus.

Also, the number of sides that the Beyblade has doesn't really affect Stamina. As long as it's symmetrical, it doesn't matter if it's two, three, four, or more sided. For example, Hell/Hades has excellent Stamina (better than Burn, Earth, Bakushin, Vulcan, etc) and is three sided.
(Dec. 01, 2016  10:38 PM)Duwg Wrote:
(Dec. 01, 2016  2:10 PM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: Well it's not meant to be attack type. Bakushin is a defence type but it can KO stamina with proper launch. While Vulcan is a pure attacker so its not fair comparison imo. I know both combo use RSF but both are completely different type of combos. Anyways I think we are going off-topic

It can KO, but it won't win overall the match, which what matters.

Vulcan is not a pure attacker like spiral, cosmic etc. There is a chance to hit the smooth side of the bey, which greatly reducing the chance of self or double KO straight after the initial launch.

As a 2 sided bey Vulcan also have greater stamina than all other 3 sided bey, can spin just as long as Earth/Burn.

Comparing it with Bakushin another 2 sided bey I think is valid, vulcan will always out perform Bakushin with the RSF combo.

Lol I won 3 matches using Bakushin 85RSF against stamina types like Earth BD, Earth W145WD, Burn BD at this event https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Mumbai-...Era-Begans

Well Cake already explained that. But really I think Vulcan is Attack Wheel with able to defend and Bakushin is Defence Wheel

No offence but I doubt anyone really cares about stamina of Defence Type or beys with rubber tip (unless its significantly more or less than avaerage).

Well I think RSF combo is wrong term (atleast in this case). As I think RSF is a part that works differantly depending on what setup it's used in.

Edit:- BTW which clear wheel you using on Vulcan and Bakushin?
(Dec. 02, 2016  12:24 AM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: No offence but I doubt anyone really cares about stamina of Defence Type or beys with rubber tip (unless its significantly more or less than avaerage).

Well, more Stamina never hurts, and even rubber-tipped Defense needs enough Stamina to OS the Attack types it's going up against Tongue_out

Regardless, if a combo has excellent Defense and a good chance to KO Stamina (like both aggro Bakushin and the Gravity combo this thread is supposed to be about), you have a pretty powerful Beyblade on your hands, provided its Stamina isn't horrendous. Gravity has the added option of going opposite-spin, and Bakushin has more than decent Stamina on its own, so both are sufficient to get the job done against low-Stamina Attack types that are the norm.
(Dec. 02, 2016  12:24 AM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: Lol I won 3 matches using Bakushin 85RSF against stamina types like Earth BD, Earth W145WD, Burn BD at this event https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Mumbai-...Era-Begans

That doesn't mean anything to me, I don't know who you went up against (kids, adults) or how strong the competition is in Mumbai.

BD is a bit overrated and are easier to KO since it's about 2.5mm taller than a 145 so its more like a 170 height spin track and the awkward height made it more vunerable vs low beys.

I do know from experience and logic, and also testing the combo myself that the odds are to low to KO staminas to warrant its use, you can achieve better result with other wheels. I don't see how you can convince me otherwise.

Quote:Well I think RSF combo is wrong term (atleast in this case). As I think RSF is a part that works differantly depending on what setup it's used in.

Was just referring to the 85/90RSF setup in general, which I know Bakushin is the wrong choice.

Nothing wrong with the Gravity 85RB setup I think its solid

Quote:No offence but I doubt anyone really cares about stamina of Defence Type or beys with rubber tip (unless its significantly more or less than avaerage).

Well I care and you should, plenty of situation where you will need to OS to win.

Quote:Edit:- BTW which clear wheel you using on Vulcan and Bakushin?

I normally like to use clear wheel designed for the metal wheel, so Horuseus and Beelzeb but I did my testing with tge suggested clear wheel above.

anyway I just wanted to voice my opinion and encourage people to do their own testing, rather than taking whatever posted as fact. I noticed that some test results posted seems rushed and didn't use enough sample size but it is better than nothing and still a good read.
Duwg Bearing Drive definitely isn't as easy to KO as some of the other stamina set ups. Here is a whole thread with testings on Bearing Drive compared to other stamina set ups against semi-aggressive combinations. Also it's probably not the brightest thing to just disregard tournament results and say it means nothing to you, considering the only evidence to back your argument up is testing that you have not posted a video/results for.

To actually contribute to the discussion a bit here about Gravity I think the combination seems really solid Wombat. Combinations like this that can serve two purposes is really powerful at a tournament, especially when you can choose spin directions. Mind if I ask the condition of your rubber ball?
(Dec. 02, 2016  5:44 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote: Duwg Bearing Drive definitely isn't as easy to KO as some of the other stamina set ups. [url=https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Bearing-Drive-It-Isn-t-as-Flimsy-as-You-Think-it-is]Here is a whole thread with testings on Bearing Drive compared to other stamina set ups against semi-aggressive combinations.

I read the entire BD thread and it's an incomplete and inconclusive test, with others in the thread challenging the result as they should. It also used a CS tip for test which can be completely random depending on the tip condition and launch. It would have been extremely difficult to emulate the same condition for each test as even the slightest angle change and trigger the rubber grip and produce high movement speed and vice versa.

I did some test myself using Spiral Unicorno 90RSF tip instead but my result is also inclusive after doing 40 rounds for each test as it is too close to call, but my trend is not in BD favor.


Earth Eagle BD vs Spiral Unicorno 90RSF

Earth: 10 wins all OS
Spiral: 30 wins all KO
Earth BD 25% win rate


Earth Eagle W145WD vs Spiral Unicorno 90RSF

Earth: 12 wins all OS
Spiral: 28 wins all KO
Earth W145WD 30% win rate

I won't be suprised if another 40 rounds test produce completely different result in BD favor. More testing is required vs a variety of beyblades and a lot more rounds for each maybe at least a 100 round but who has time for that.

Beyblades are just too random sometime, you do need to based a some of your judgement on logic and some of tests.

BD should provide weaker defense since it is 165 height (its not 170 as I previously though) which makes it more vunerable to KO due increase chance of upper smash from lower beyblade.


Just like how Bakushin is unlikely to KO stamina type like Earth/Burn due to its Shape.


Quote:Also it's probably not the brightest thing to just disregard tournament results and say it means nothing to you,

Lets not kid ourselves to say that the result from a casual Beyblade Tournament will produce any authoritive findings. It consist of a bunch of beyblade geeks (like myself) playing beyblades for a few hours on a saturday and calling it a "Tournament". Winning combinations can be produced simply from sheer randomness and luck, fail launches, cheats?, referee failures, inexperience, etc.
It's just bunch of people having fun, this is not exactly a competitive sport.

Doing a test for single combination alone can take hours to ensure consistent and unbiased result, I don't see how after a few match in an afternoon you can confidently say this is a Top Tier combination even if it wins the tournament.

A M145MS combo can win a tournament too since it just so random, doesn't mean it's top tier.

Quote:considering the only evidence to back your argument up is testing that you have not posted a video/results for.

The burden of proof lies with the OP, you and others that believe the combo is Top tier, I haven't seen any video proofing that it is solid either, an uncut footage of 10 matches or more (3 points to win a match) would be good.
(Dec. 02, 2016  11:14 PM)Duwg Wrote:
(Dec. 02, 2016  5:44 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote: Duwg Bearing Drive definitely isn't as easy to KO as some of the other stamina set ups. Here is a whole thread with testings on Bearing Drive compared to other stamina set ups against semi-aggressive combinations

I read the entire BD thread and it's an incomplete and inconclusive test, with others in the thread challenging the result as they should. It also used a CS tip for test which can be completely random depending on the tip condition and launch. It would have been extremely difficult to emulate the same condition for each test as even the slightest angle change and trigger the rubber grip and produce high movement speed and vice versa.

I did some test myself using Spiral Unicorno 90RSF tip instead but my result is also inclusive after doing 40 rounds for each test as it is too close to call, but my trend is not in BD favor.


Earth Eagle BD vs Spiral Unicorno 90RSF

Earth: 10 wins all OS
Spiral: 30 wins all KO
Earth BD 25% win rate


Earth Eagle W145WD vs Spiral Unicorno 90RSF

Earth: 12 wins all OS
Spiral: 28 wins all KO
Earth W145WD 30% win rate

I won't be suprised if another 40 rounds test produce completely different result in BD favor. More testing is required vs a variety of beyblades and a lot more rounds for each maybe at least a 100 round but who has time for that.

Beyblades are just too random sometime, you do need to based a some of your judgement on logic and some of tests.

BD should provide weaker defense since it is 165 height (its not 170 as I previously though) which makes it more vunerable to KO due increase chance of upper smash from lower beyblade.

Well I agree using CS for that test was not so great idea but even your test proves difference is not that huge. If BD is launched in angle so it will scrap makes it quite hard to ko while not losing much stamina (well atleast for me).

if you are saying BD is 170 due to this article. I'm pretty sure they meant "170 without tip" which is equal to 145WD. BTW that article is also written by WBO members :p


Quote:
Quote:considering the only evidence to back your argument up is testing that you have not posted a video/results for.

The burden of proof lies with the OP, you and others that believe the combo is Top tier, I haven't seen any video proofing that it is solid either, an uncut footage of 10 matches or more (3 points to win a match) would be good.
[/quote]

Well Wombat is a trusted advance member and he got that position for a reason (as well as Cake, 1234bb, Thunder dome and Kei), and its not like only he is getting this type of results. We all (including you lol) who postd in thread tried Gravity 90/85RB and found it to pretty good
Bearing Drive being easier to KO than other Stamina setups is a misconception that originated from the period following Phantom Orion's release, where everyone was wowed by its Stamina as a stock Beyblade and used only stock Phantom Orion B:D. Yes, it's easy to KO as it is made of plastic, but no easier than other setups like W145WD, SA165EWD, or 230D.

I agree that more rounds will lead to more accurate results while testing (though there is also a chance that someone could just test a lot of rounds, and just select a smaller sample size that isn't representative of the whole population), and, if your test results are to be believed, B:D and WD had pretty similar results. You said it yourself, there's a solid chance that in the next 40 rounds B:D could be ahead. Just because there's no clear winner doesn't mean that the tests are inconclusive - an 80-round test where one combo performs marginally better than the other means that they give basically identical results in that matchup (with some margin of error due to the randomness you described). That's also putting aside other factors, like that your testing used the RSF tip, which is also affected by launch strength/angle and wear condition (especially if you used a super soft one like you mentioned you have earlier, those wear down real quick). You're also right about looking at the big picture and multiple matchups - as far as testing vs just using common sense goes, with your results I would still pick B:D over W145WD, as B:D has significantly better Stamina and can beat W145WD 1v1 at the cost of being only marginally (if at all) easier to KO.

As for the competitiveness of tournaments, you're correct that it varies from place to place, but I can totally vouch for all of the tournaments I've used Bakushin in to be in more difficult communities (NC, Toronto, MD) against mostly top-level competitors. You're totally right about testing and tournaments being totally different (if you haven't read it yet, there's a whole thread about it). It's the whole issue of playing against other people with something (points, rank, prizes, etc.) on the line, with these people trying to beat you just as much as you're trying to beat them. Even if you end up being the Screw player in that matchup during a tournament, there's still a chance you could lose despite getting 80% winrates in testing. The Earth player could Sliding Shoot their combo to make it more difficult to hit, or read your launch and respond accordingly, or you could just choke and Self-KO. The reality is that Beyblade is designed as a two-player game, so those combos that rise to the top in two-player, head to head competition should be given some merit.

There is some degree of goofing off in tournaments even in strong regions (a quick glance at some of the 'joke' combos in the Winning Combos thread like Storm Pegasis 230RF or Lightning L-Drago 230HF/S could tell you that easy), but it usually occurs in 'throwaway' matches and for the sake of getting weird combos on the list. Yes, Beyblade isn't a sport and doesn't even have a mainstream competitive scene, but it's not just 'little Billy beating the rest of the 4th graders with Twisted Tempo' either. I think that if you look closely you'll find there's a lot more competitive depth to Beyblade than initially meets the eye. :)

(Dec. 02, 2016  11:14 PM)Duwg Wrote:
Quote:considering the only evidence to back your argument up is testing that you have not posted a video/results for.

The burden of proof lies with the OP, you and others that believe the combo is Top tier, I haven't seen any video proofing that it is solid either, an uncut footage of 10 matches or more (3 points to win a match) would be good.

Um, what? As far as I'm aware "The burden of proof lies with the OP" is not a rule on the WBO. There have been cases in the past where test results have been faked, but it's never come to the point where videos were mandatory. Once I'm on Winter Break I could post some videos if you're still interested.

As much as I hate to sound like an elitist, if you don't think the combo Top tier, then that's fine, it's not like anyone is forcing you to use it. I think I've provided enough justification in the OP for how and why I got the results I did, and others seem to be replicating these results in tournaments as well.

(Dec. 02, 2016  5:44 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote: To actually contribute to the discussion a bit here about Gravity I think the combination seems really solid Wombat. Combinations like this that can serve two purposes is really powerful at a tournament, especially when you can choose spin directions. Mind if I ask the condition of your rubber ball?

Thanks! I wanted to make a combo that took advantage of Gravity's Dual Spin in a meaningful way and also encourage people to branch out from just going back to the F230GCF setup lol. It's difficult to say what condition my RB is in since it's not a part I use too frequently (I find RSF better in most situations) but if I had to guess I would say it's probably around the end of its prime. It's pretty grippy, and moves aggressively if launched moderately hard.
Quote:if you are saying BD is 170 due to this article. I'm pretty sure they meant "170 without tip" which is equal to 145WD. BTW that article is also written by WBO members Tongue_out

No, I did my own research. eg. BD is the same total height as a SA165WD spin track but lower than TH170WD, see proof below.

[Image: IMG_2924_1.jpg]

[Image: IMG_2925_2.jpg]

Quote:Um, what? As far as I'm aware "The burden of proof lies with the OP" is not a rule on the WBO. There have been cases in the past where test results have been faked, but it's never come to the point where videos were mandatory. Once I'm on Winter Break I could post some videos if you're still interested.

As much as I hate to sound like an elitist, if you don't think the combo Top tier, then that's fine, it's not like anyone is forcing you to use it. I think I've provided enough justification in the OP for how and why I got the results I did, and others seem to be replicating these results in tournaments as well.

That was in response to thunder dome that sort of demanded video/result proof from me.

I think it's common sense for the person claiming their combo should be considered Top Tier should provide sufficient evidence if the community are not convinced rather than relying on their authoritive status as a "trusted" member. This is a recipe for misinformation to the community which I believe has happened before.

So far only proof for Bakushin 90RSF combo see is from 3 20 round tests vs attack type and none vs Stamina which was my original and biggest complaint.

The counter to my claims so far are words from trusted members with that it can "easily KO stamina" and "it won tournaments" which we just both agreed is not valid. Well forgive me for calling BS and point out that the burden of proof should be on people that made the claims. Otherwise people can just post any result and then its up to other people to proof that it's wrong.

I'm dissappointed with the condensending tone towards me here, beyblade community is not very big and I think I have posted contrustively and politely. My skepticism should be encouraged rather than dismissed with a take it or leave it as we want our beyblade facts to be as accurate as possible.
I just did a quick test of it vs Baku.

Bakushin Leone 85MF vs Gravity Perseus (Stamina) 85RSF
Gravity:- 2 (All KO)
Bakushin:- 8 (3 KO 4 OS)
Gravity was able to get under Baku and KO it but Baku most time survived and OSed it
Can RSF be used instead of RB? RB comes with all stuff that is rare and expensive (difficult to find / buy).