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[LTD] Bakushin discussion

Dec. 07, 2013  4:09 AM
 
Bakushin Discussion (Limited Format ver.)

The small amount of testing done on this part showed that it was around the level of Earth and Nightmare at its time, but they were all overshadowed by Basalt. With that gone, Bakushin could have some use for Defense and Stamina.

Equipment used
Right & Left spin String Launchers
Launcher Grips
BB-10
you know, the usual stuff.

Solo Spin times
Spoiler (Click to View)

Defense Testing
Spoiler (Click to View)

Stamina Testing
Spoiler (Click to View)
Dec. 07, 2013  4:23 AM
 
I was about to make a thread about the use of bakushin. I even was going to mention the exact same defense combo. XD If you want I can do some additional tests. Just let me know
Dec. 07, 2013  5:20 AM
 
I WAS JUST ABOUT TO POST THIS LOL

Ah well, this is cool! I did a quick LTDC test, since that's what I figured would work best, but my results were mixed:

Gravity Perseus (ATK) TR145RF vs. MF-H Bakushin Pisces 85RSF
Bakushin always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
Bakushin: 8 (5 OS, 3 KO)
Gravity: 12 (5 OS, 7 KO)
Bakushin Win %: 40.0%

This technically did better for me than Earth did, but there were some issues with this exact custom. Namely, what I found was that this particular custom scrapes too frequently, due to either being force smashed or just send sideways and scraping the slopes. I'm betting a slightly taller track would help, but I'm really afraid of going too high because then you lose the advantage of its shape. That'll be a fine line to tread, that's for sure.

The clear wheel choice could probably be improved upon too; I was going with Pisces to keep the low profile of Bakushin, but there's probably a better option. I'm thinking maybe something like Leone, perhaps?

Bakushin has serious potential for sure IMO, but finding the right balance will be tricky.
Dec. 07, 2013  7:12 AM
 
Pieces has those spikes. I will give cw's a look today and report back.
Dec. 07, 2013  2:38 PM
 
Try 90 or 100 on this?

And with the KOs, maybe try a agressive defense type? TR145 RF?
Dec. 07, 2013  2:40 PM
 
Yay, my GB145 CS suggestion was tested, ad it didn't do too badly.

Would we be able to try with 85 CS? (just a suggestion, haha)

As for CW's, I was looking, what about using Lynx?
Dec. 07, 2013  2:46 PM
 
If you struggled to get screw 90 RF under bakushin then you probably weren't banking deep enough. Screw isn't really a good wheel for testing against because it does take some getting used to. I will scratch up my bakushin if I get more time tonight, to provide some comparison to other things I've tried.

As for lynx, it has those ears that probably cause recoil.

EDIT : no more time to test tonight so I'll get onto it tomorrow. Isn't Hades quite smooth and heavy? That could be good. That said I'll look at the cw's I have tonight as I said.

EDIT 2: Leone actually looks really good on bakushin, sorta continues the slopes while being relatively smooth and even all around, as well as being decently heavy. If you want small, then uranus may be a good choice but I think I will stick with Leone.

EDIT 3: Bakushin's overhang is almost exactly the same as Libra, with bakushin being only a hair wider.
85 should be fine unless Bakushin's shape is working against it and causing it to be hit down more (theoretically a fresh defensive cs might help), low track scraping only really becomes an issue post-maximum due to added diameter and large overhangs, because power creep. I can't imagine anything over 90 would be necessary here.

Leone19: Overhangs defeat the point of tall tracks, making it easier for 145 height attackers to make contact., and earth has a much better lower edge for defense, so you'd be throwing away all of Bakushin's advantages.
Dec. 07, 2013  9:02 PM
 
Edited the OP with 100RSF testing, since 85 scrapes too much according to Ingulit. Also Stamina is up, with a mirror match vs Earth.

I only continued using Cancer because I don't have Cygnus and it's the generic top-tier Defense/Stamina CW. I'll try Leone as well, but if anyone finds something that is just amazing with Bakushin let me know.

EDIT: I know the percentages would probably be higher/lower if I could use Attack types better.
Dec. 07, 2013  9:05 PM
 
I have noticed leone works well with bakushin, would u mind doing tests with bakushin ____ bearing drive?
Dec. 07, 2013  9:14 PM
 
(Dec. 07, 2013  9:05 PM)DRAGON KING Wrote: I have noticed leone works well with bakushin, would u mind doing tests with bakushin ____ bearing drive?

Bakushin is showing more Defensive rather than Stamina purposes, though.
Dec. 07, 2013  9:20 PM
 
Yes, but we should atleast try for stamina, I know it shines in defence (I own one BTW), but I would like to see stamina tests as well Smile
Dec. 07, 2013  9:23 PM
 
(Dec. 07, 2013  9:20 PM)DRAGON KING Wrote: Yes, but we should atleast try for stamina, I know it shines in defence (I own one BTW), but I would like to see stamina tests as well :)

I really don't think B:D will work at all in Limited. The only thing that allowed it to be debatedly Top Tier was the sheer weight (and usually opposite spin direction) of Synchroms that made up for it's awful defenses. There's nothing heavy enough in Limited to make B:D useful.
Dec. 08, 2013  9:32 PM
 
Would somebody please test Bakushin Leone W145/AD145WD against a Left Spin combo like Meteo L-Drago CH120EWD or Gravity Perseus 100EWD? I'd like to see if whatever overhang Bakushin has might allow it to counter opposite-spin Stamina with similar effectiveness to Death.
Dec. 08, 2013  10:13 PM
 
(Dec. 08, 2013  9:32 PM)ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) Wrote: Would somebody please test Bakushin Leone W145/AD145WD against a Left Spin combo like Meteo L-Drago CH120EWD or Gravity Perseus 100EWD? I'd like to see if whatever overhang Bakushin has might allow it to counter opposite-spin Stamina with similar effectiveness to Death.

Sure, I'll get on it once I finish my bibliography.

EDIT: Tests are up! I only have 1 EWD.
Dec. 10, 2013  1:05 AM
 
Ask, and ye shall receive.

Only did 10 tests cause it.was pretty clear who was the winner.

Bakushin Leone W145WD vs. Meteo L-Drago CH120EWD
Bakushin: 2 KO (20%)
Meteo: 6 OS / 2 KO (80%)

Bakushin never had a chance beating Meteo, unfortunately. Unhappy I really like Bakushin, but that was a shame. It can't OS Meteo at all, and its only shot at winning was relying on Meteos recoil.

My WD must be worn too much or something, as both of our results are pretty different. I never liked the D series bottoms, too inconsistent ... The only different factor in our tests was the MF-L and regular face which shouldn't make that much of a difference.

Bakushin Leone W145WD vs. Gravity Perseus (Defense Mode) 100EWD
Bakushin: 4 KO (20%)
Gravity: 6 KO / 10 OS (80%)

dat recoil on gravity.
dem KOs.

But yeah, Bakushin didn't do so well. Basically the same deal as Meteo.

Back when I tested Bakushin, I concluded that it was a worse Earth. It really offers no advantage over it in Defense, or Stamina. Maybe trying it at lower heights could show some other potential.
Dec. 10, 2013  3:59 AM
 
Ah, thanks so much for the tests, guys! Doesn't look like Bakushin's overhang is low enough for what I was looking for, though. *sigh*

Actually, now I wonder how Bakushin stacks up to Dark Stamina-wise...? If tests haven't already been conducted, I think somebody really ought to try Bakushin ___ 145/W145/AD145WD against Dark ___ 145/W145/AD145WD to, if nothing else, determine which to use or recommend over the other should better Wheels be unavailable.
Dec. 10, 2013  4:13 AM
 
I love seeing this, I have been using Bakushin since it came out but it was always outclassed against anything 4d or synchrome so I am ecstatic to see it shine here. That said I hope that we can start utilizing it despite its weakness to gravity
Dec. 12, 2013  5:38 PM
 
Played around with Bakushin today, scratching the paint made me a little sad, but I was pleased to find it actually works very nicely. MF-H Bakushin Leone 85RSF worked really well for me. It did scrape out once but that was more bad luck than anything. The shape does make it rather hard to land solid hits on, which is nice.

However, I tried it on taller tracks and found it very much unimpressive. If opponents can get under it, it's going to struggle, and even same-height hits are pretty hard - its sides do have a fair bit of recoil in them.

Overall, I don't know if it's really any better than Earth, I suspect Earth will do better against LTAC, but Bakushin may be better against everything else (it definitely seems better against MF-H Pegasis CH120RF, though that could well be due to Earth's specific weakness to that setup on 85 thanks to the respective shapes of the two wheels).

Stamina wise, Bakushin is impressive - on par with Earth but a little more recoil prone, however Burn is probably a better choice for the same application. It would definitely worth looking into it as an LTSC wheel, though.

I also managed to get it to work passably for attack playing around with MF-H Bakushin Rex GB145RF for a little, by no means amazing, but pretty neat for something that works decently for defense. It's definitely not competitive but it seems to do pretty solidly against stamina at least.
I finished up by trying out MF-H Bakushin Leone GB145RF, which could be a good Anti-Attack setup, however it struggles to KO MF-H Gravity Perseus (STA) B: D (was in a rush so couldn't find an MF-M), though it does fare better against meteo. Against attack it seems capable of ramping them out if it catches them while it is tornado stalling, but I didn't get much time to test, so I can't guarantee it will actually be any good if someone tests it.

(Dec. 10, 2013  3:59 AM)ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) Wrote: Ah, thanks so much for the tests, guys! Doesn't look like Bakushin's overhang is low enough for what I was looking for, though. *sigh*

Actually, now I wonder how Bakushin stacks up to Dark Stamina-wise...? If tests haven't already been conducted, I think somebody really ought to try Bakushin ___ 145/W145/AD145WD against Dark ___ 145/W145/AD145WD to, if nothing else, determine which to use or recommend over the other should better Wheels be unavailable.

Dark is pretty bad for stamina, a little recoil prone and a very unspecialised weight distribution do not make for a good stamina wheel.
Dec. 12, 2013  5:50 PM
 
I did very few battles but I do like Bakushin for low track defense. I actually used 90 instead of 85 just because I didn't want to risk the scraping, which really wasnt that often, I just didn't feel safe, haha. Hopefully this weekend I can test a bunch. Bakushin has such a unique shape that attack types have a hard time against it, a lot more than Earth in my opinion.
Dec. 13, 2013  12:48 AM
 
There's no way that Bakushin is worse than Dark, lol. I guess the general consensus is that Bakushin is better on 85/90/100RSF, due to its shape, but Earth works better for every other setup. I can do Bakushin vs Burn this weekend if anyone wants. It could have a spot on the Limited tier list.
Dec. 13, 2013  6:16 PM
 
Unless something else crops up for LTDC then I'm sure it'll make it based on that, maybe for other stuff as well, it's pretty competent at a lot of different things. That said, I honestly wouldn't list 100 on it, that's just being crazy paranoid about scraping.
Dec. 17, 2013  7:43 AM
 
I wanted to do some Stamina test for Bakushin since I always love how it preformed in Hasbro Stadia for it.

BB-10 Stadium (Repaired) L/R String. Burn is original TT Burn Pheonix release.
Alternating Launches each round
WDss switched after 10 rounds.
Burn Bull AD145WD vs Bakushin Bull AD145WD
Burn Wins 8OSs 4KOs(GOT ITS REVENGE)
Bakushin Wins 3KOs 5OSs
Bakushin Win Rate=40%

I wanted to keep the KOs in to show this might be a stamina bakushin strat but it backfired later in the matches quite hilariously.

Earth would proaboaly throw bakushin into the trash heep though. A lot of Bakushin's OSs were early WD slides from high recoil collisions and that is generally how bakushin won using its slight attack prowess.
Dec. 26, 2013  9:05 PM
 
Played around with Bakushin a bit today, against MF-H Quetzalcoatl CH120RF, no formal tests but CH120 is a problem height for earth LTDC as a bunch of wheel hit its stepped slopes if they're on CH120 and can KO it much more easily than normal. I did have scraping trouble with 85 as a result of the underside slope of quetz's claws/wings/whatever, but moving to 90 fixed that. After playing around with it more, I really think Leone might be the best CW for Bakushin, it's really low recoil and carries on the slope nicely, so uh, MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF - pretty good, someone should test it and compare because I am playing around with so many crazy ideas right now and re-trying stuff I overlooked back in the day that I just can't sit down and do 20 rounds while this hyped.
Dec. 27, 2013  5:12 AM
 
It looks like Stamina varies...
It has potential, but more tests should be done. Also, are you going to do attack?
Dec. 27, 2013  1:09 PM
 
It just looks like it has use in: Defence (100%) and Attack (60%)

It doesn't look like it has use in Stamina. Seen as Leone looks like the best wheel... Lucky I've got one, haha. I'll try test more for Bakushin
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