Estimating a Wheel's Smash

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This is a theory thread for now, but calculations are coming soon. Maybe Beywiki writers can get an idea out of this to help explain a wheel's effectiveness in smash. And perhaps if new releases come out, members will just do a few quick steps and make conclusions on wheels, ultimately saving time. So feel free to click the article...
This is my first thread, so feedback and constructive criticism is greatly appreciated.

Special Mentions
Kai-V:
  • For helping in editing the drafts (4-7-14)
  • For providing helpful diagrams to add to the thread (11-9-14)
Cake:
  • For editing/improving/helping with beyphysics section (16-7-14)
Kujikato:
  • For helping with all beyphysics theories (17-7-14)

Edit history! (Click to View)
You should mention the consistency of a part in the drawing section, because other than that, there's no reason to do the drawings.

Bahamdia actually has decent consistency. It's has two large prominent attack points, much like Flash. Maybe you should mention how smash varies?
(Jul. 12, 2014  5:36 AM)Echizen Wrote: You should mention the consistency of a part in the drawing section, because other than that, there's no reason to do the drawings.

Bahamdia actually has decent consistency. It's has two large prominent attack points, much like Flash. Maybe you should mention how smash varies?

1. The reason I did the drawings was because it is generally easier for non-robots like us to calculate smash by referencing visuals.
2. IIRC, in the Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F thread, Ingulit or Meow! mentioned that Bahamdia had inconsistencies. If I am wrong though, suggest a wheel. But you right in that Bahamdia indeed has two major attack points.
And smash varies as in...?

PS. I'll change contact points to attack points, because the latter seems more relevant to attack types.

Thanks for the feedback. PM me if you have a billion questions, because from now on, I'm replying to two or more posts at a time unless 24 hours have past since one. It's just to prevent back and forth posts that could be done by PM.
This is really cool!
11 Tongue_out
So in other words:

Better smash = consistent spacing for attack points + more weight on the attack points + closer to center of bey

Tell me if my head processor has missed anything
(Jul. 13, 2014  12:33 PM)Kalthesuperior Wrote: So in other words:

Better smash = consistent spacing for attack points + more weight on the attack points + closer to center of bey

Tell me if my head processor has missed anything

Weight distribution doesn't matter too much. Also even though weight is good, it may slow the Beyblade down a bit... also, just weight in general, not just on the attack points. Low recoil is also important.
If the weight is focused towards the outside it has a better chance of making contact with that contact point, IMO.
(Jul. 14, 2014  11:20 PM)Ocean Wrote:
(Jul. 13, 2014  12:33 PM)Kalthesuperior Wrote: So in other words:

Better smash = consistent spacing for attack points + more weight on the attack points + closer to center of bey

Tell me if my head processor has missed anything

Weight distribution doesn't matter too much. Also even though weight is good, it may slow the Beyblade down a bit... also, just weight in general, not just on the attack points. Low recoil is also important.

Does more weight=less recoil?
(Jul. 15, 2014  1:00 AM)Kalthesuperior Wrote:
(Jul. 14, 2014  11:20 PM)Ocean Wrote:
(Jul. 13, 2014  12:33 PM)Kalthesuperior Wrote: So in other words:

Better smash = consistent spacing for attack points + more weight on the attack points + closer to center of bey

Tell me if my head processor has missed anything

Weight distribution doesn't matter too much. Also even though weight is good, it may slow the Beyblade down a bit... also, just weight in general, not just on the attack points. Low recoil is also important.

Does more weight=less recoil?
Defenitely not. Wyvang and Balro are the heaviest chrome wheels, they also have some of the most recoil.
(Jul. 14, 2014  11:39 PM)Echizen Wrote: If the weight is focused towards the outside it has a better chance of making contact with that contact point, IMO.

Herm? Since when does mass (assuming that's what you mean) make contact with an attack (more relevant term in terms of this article) point? I' don't get what you mean. Stupid

Ocean: Mass (the correct term) distribution DOES matter. A 43g wheel with generally more externally distributed mass (in terms of the distance from the axis of rotation) would be better (in terms of reducing rotational recoil) than a 43g wheel with generally more centered mass (again, in terms of the distance from the axis of rotation). If you read the OP, the less you move back, the more the opponent does.

@Echizen again: Since when does Balro have "some of the most recoil"? I use it on WSF against Gargole BD145RS and I don't have problems.

This is what I mean by replying to more than one post at a time. Wink


And it would be great if we all talk about how this thread could be more informative, rather that telling each other about wheels. Such as pointing out mistakes. I edited the OP just a few minutes ago, but I have the gut feeling that there are more mistakes that only readers can isolate.
(Jul. 15, 2014  10:28 AM)ƒ¡$h Wrote:
(Jul. 14, 2014  11:39 PM)Echizen Wrote: If the weight is focused towards the outside it has a better chance of making contact with that contact point, IMO.

Herm? Since when does mass (assuming that's what you mean) make contact with an attack (more relevant term in terms of this article) point? I' don't get what you mean. Stupid

Ocean: Mass (the correct term) distribution DOES matter. A 43g wheel with generally more externally distributed mass (in terms of the distance from the axis of rotation) would be better (in terms of reducing rotational recoil) than a 43g wheel with generally more centered mass (again, in terms of the distance from the axis of rotation). If you read the OP, the less you move back, the more the opponent does.

@Echizen again: Since when does Balro have "some of the most recoil"? I use it on WSF against Gargole BD145RS and I don't have problems.

This is what I mean by replying to more than one post at a time. Wink


And it would be great if we all talk about how this thread could be more informative, rather that telling each other about wheels. Such as pointing out mistakes. I edited the OP just a few minutes ago, but I have the gut feeling that there are more mistakes that only readers can isolate.

Please stop thinking yourself superior to others and (correct me if I'm wrong) we are all equals here besides the mods and advanced members who are way better than us.

Weight Distribution doesn't matter too much because what matters is the Critical Contact Points and how big/recoily they are.


If you used a staller against a recoily Defense. Of course the staller would win... try a top tier Defense type against an Attack type and see what happens.
(Jul. 15, 2014  1:07 PM)Ocean Wrote:
(Jul. 15, 2014  10:28 AM)ƒ¡$h Wrote: Ocean: Mass (the correct term) distribution DOES matter. A 43g wheel with generally more externally distributed mass (in terms of the distance from the axis of rotation) would be better (in terms of reducing rotational recoil) than a 43g wheel with generally more centered mass (again, in terms of the distance from the axis of rotation). If you read the OP, the less you move back, the more the opponent does.

Please stop thinking yourself superior to others and (correct me if I'm wrong) we are all equals here besides the mods and advanced members who are way better than us.

Weight Distribution doesn't matter too much because what matters is the Critical Contact Points and how big/recoily they are.

If you used a staller against a recoily Defense. Of course the staller would win... try a top tier Defense type against an Attack type and see what happens.

What...? You definitely misunderstood everything he said. He was just trying to explain to you the importance of weight distribution, a concept on which you were clearly misinformed. Nowhere does he even allude to himself being a superior to you or anybody else... Advanced, mod, or not, nobody is above anybody else here. :\ (except Blader DJ, of course)

The best demonstration of weight (I'm gonna call it this to keep from getting too technical) distribution's importance and its effect on performance is plastics. As th!nk pointed out once, the older generations of Beyblade were very different from MFB because you could actually significantly alter the distribution of weight within the tops via different sized Weight Disks and weighted Spin Gears. The entire Plastics generation basically hinged on changing the distribution of weight within your top to suit your needs.

By your logic (i.e. as long as the part maintains the same shape and overall weight, the distribution is irrelevant), then an Attack combo using Triple Wing on a 8-Heavy should be just as effective as though it were using a Wide Defense. However, that's not that case because by putting all that weight near the center, rather than distributing it around the AR and and putting it behind the AR's contact points, not only is the entire combo's Stamina/Endurance hindered, but it's also no longer able to hit as strongly as it would have with Wide Defense.

And your example of "recoily Defense" doesn't necessarily mean the Defense combo has to be inherently lame Stamina-wise. Phantom has quite a bit of recoil, but if you utilized it in a Defense setup, you could potentially beat a tornado-stalling combo, such as Balro Balro BD145MF.


@f¡$h: Nice thread. I'd like to look into this myself some more in the future, but I've gotta finish something else up first. Let me know if you want any help graphics-wise, though, I'd be happy to help.
(Jul. 15, 2014  1:07 PM)Ocean Wrote: Please stop thinking yourself superior to others and (correct me if I'm wrong) we are all equals here besides the mods and advanced members who are way better than us.
Don't mean to get off-topic, but that's untrue. I think Neo would have more knowledge on Plastics then TheBlackDragon. Possibly Echizen and Tr! as well.

Nice topic!
(Jul. 15, 2014  10:28 AM)ƒ¡$h Wrote:
(Jul. 14, 2014  11:39 PM)Echizen Wrote: If the weight is focused towards the outside it has a better chance of making contact with that contact point, IMO.

Herm? Since when does mass (assuming that's what you mean) make contact with an attack (more relevant term in terms of this article) point? I' don't get what you mean. Stupid
As, Angry Face mentioned, in plastics the weight disk focuses weight to the outer edge of the Attack Ring, therefore has more weight to smash. Since the weight is focused near the outside it's a bit less balanced, IMO.


(Jul. 15, 2014  10:28 AM)ƒ¡$h Wrote: @Echizen again: Since when does Balro have "some of the most recoil"? I use it on WSF against Gargole BD145RS and I don't have problems.
From what I've seen it has tons of recoil(Maybe not as much as others), especially being used on attack types.
Focusing weight outwards actually improves a Beyblade's balance, grinding ability, solo spin time, and Smash Attack.

More weight = less recoil in every case. A heavier Beyblade will suffer from less movement of its own because, in any system where two objects collide, since Force = mass * acceleration, the amount that an object will be pushed is inversely proportional to the object's weight. The reason that Balro and Wyvang are still somewhat recoily is simply because their collisions have more total energy because of their stronger Smash. Consequently, both Beyblades are moved more than they would in a case with weaker Smash. Though, I would argue that Balro/Wyvang are actually pretty manageable, recoil-wise - just look at Balro^2 BD145MF. If Balro was super-recoily that combo would self-KO all the time without a rubber tip.

One important thing that I believe you missed in your analysis is the size of gaps in the wheel that lead up to the contact points. The larger the gaps (as in Flash, which is basically two gigantic gaps due to its elliptical shape) the stronger and more consistent the hits will be. This is because, as the Beyblades spin and move together, a wider gap allows the Beyblades to approach for ever so slightly longer and thus get deeper into the gap before being hit by the contact point. When the Beyblades do collide, there is more surface area in the collision, since the Beyblades are closer and are not just skimming one another's surface. This transfers much more energy and results in a much stronger hit. It also reduces the chance that the Beyblades will collide just as the contact point approaches, and the hit will have smaller contact area and skip off without as much effect.

BTW I'm pretty sure the formula you want to use is F=ma, not E=mc^2. E=mc^2 is the theory of general relativity, and relates energy (E) to mass (m) times the square of the speed of light ©. It refers to the possibility of converting matter into energy and vice versa, and is applied in nuclear reactions. Since we aren't nuking anything in Beyblade (until the anime becomes reality) that formula won't really apply. Aside from that, I thought it was a good, informative article.
More weight doesn't actually mean less recoil it's just that the recoil is controlled, which might appear like it is less recoil, but it is the same.
The MW's shape will have the same "recoil coefficient" (I guess, just made that up lol) regardless of its weight, sure, but what matters isn't how much recoil the Wheel has inherently - it's how that recoil is expressed when it hits something. If you had the most recoily wheel in existence, like an MFB Bump King, but it was absurdly heavy - so heavy that its recoil was dampened to be roughly on par with Wyvang's, then, for all intents and purposes, its recoil is equivalent to Wyvang's. In Plastics, this would be different, since weight and Attack/recoil are more separately modifiable, but for the purposes of MFB, a wheel's dampened recoil due to its weight is the amount of recoil it will have in any circumstance.

What I'm trying to say is that a part's recoil after being dampened by weight is what matters - it doesn't matter how recoily the wheel's design is if, in practice, its weight or some other attribute keeps that recoil in check.
@Angry Face Thanks for the support. It means a lot to me. But if I did sound arrogant, then I guess it's sorry to Ocean.
Cake I guess E=mc^2 sounds a little strange, because thinking about it, it does imply energy is mass and blabble. I'm changing it to F=ma, because it does sound more relevant. Thanks for pointing that out!
@*Ginga* I'm looking into that right now, and considering your point, I'm iffy about my post. Could advanced members check that recoil (in terms of beyblade) is just a oppositely-directed force and not how much the bey moves back? If it is the former, then this is my reaction:

Wut!?
(Jul. 16, 2014  8:27 AM)ƒ¡$h Wrote: @Angry Face Thanks for the support. It means a lot to me. But if I did sound arrogant, then I guess it's sorry to Ocean.
Cake I guess E=mc^2 sounds a little strange, because thinking about it, it does imply energy is mass and blabble. I'm changing it to F=ma, because it does sound more relevant. Thanks for pointing that out!
@*Ginga* I'm looking into that right now, and considering your point, I'm iffy about my post. Could advanced members check that recoil (in terms of beyblade) is just a oppositely-directed force and not how much the bey moves back? If it is the former, then this is my reaction:

Wut!?

Would Ginka mean:
Lighter wheel = more recoil, same recoil damage?

Heavier wheel = less recoil, same recoil damage?

I'm trying to differentiate between how much damage taken and how much a bey is pushed back due to recoil. Tell me if this is incorrect.
(Jul. 17, 2014  3:24 AM)Kalthesuperior Wrote:
(Jul. 16, 2014  8:27 AM)ƒ¡$h Wrote: @Angry Face Thanks for the support. It means a lot to me. But if I did sound arrogant, then I guess it's sorry to Ocean.
Cake I guess E=mc^2 sounds a little strange, because thinking about it, it does imply energy is mass and blabble. I'm changing it to F=ma, because it does sound more relevant. Thanks for pointing that out!
@*Ginga* I'm looking into that right now, and considering your point, I'm iffy about my post. Could advanced members check that recoil (in terms of beyblade) is just a oppositely-directed force and not how much the bey moves back? If it is the former, then this is my reaction:

Wut!?

Would Ginka mean:
Lighter wheel = more recoil, same recoil damage?

Heavier wheel = less recoil, same recoil damage?

I'm trying to differentiate between how much damage taken and how much a bey is pushed back due to recoil. Tell me if this is incorrect.
Lighter doesn't mean more recoil it just means harder to control the recoil. Heavier doesn't mean less recoil, just easier to control. So the heavier recoil usually has less recoil.
(Jul. 17, 2014  3:33 AM)Echizen Wrote: Lighter doesn't mean more recoil it just means harder to control the recoil. Heavier doesn't mean less recoil, just easier to control. So the heavier recoil usually has "less recoil damage".

1. How do you 'control recoil' exactly?
2. What is 'recoil damage' as opposed to a simple 'recoil'?

I'm getting confused here...
(Jul. 17, 2014  5:14 AM)Uwik Wrote:
(Jul. 17, 2014  3:33 AM)Echizen Wrote: Lighter doesn't mean more recoil it just means harder to control the recoil. Heavier doesn't mean less recoil, just easier to control. So the heavier recoil usually has "less recoil damage".

1. How do you 'control recoil' exactly?
2. What is 'recoil damage' as opposed to a simple 'recoil'?

I'm getting confused here...
I guess I meant so that when you hit; take a hit you don't get knocked around as easily.

I was quoting what he said, but I guess the amount of recoil you recieve ?
(Jul. 16, 2014  8:27 AM)ƒ¡$h Wrote: Could advanced members check that recoil (in terms of beyblade) is just a oppositely-directed force and not how much the bey moves back?

http://wiki.worldbeyblade.org/index.php/Recoil

Basically recoil is recoil. It's not a good thing. How far the bey moves back depends on more than just 1 variable, ie:

- How much recoil the bey has
- How much smash the opposing bey has
- The weight difference of the 2 beys also plays a role

More often than not, recoil is linked to the smash power. The more smash capability a bey has, usually means more recoil for the bey as well.

Putting weights and recoils aside, measuring pure smash capability of a wheel is really difficult. If you could come out with a standardized method to yield numerical result that represents a wheel's smash capability, it would be extremeeeeeeely great! I'm definitely looking forward to it.
(Jul. 17, 2014  5:51 AM)Uwik Wrote: http://wiki.worldbeyblade.org/index.php/Recoil

Basically recoil is recoil. It's not a good thing. How far the bey moves back depends on more than just 1 variable, ie:

- How much recoil the bey has
- How much smash the opposing bey has
- The weight difference of the 2 beys also plays a role

More often than not, recoil is linked to the smash power. The more smash capability a bey has, usually means more recoil for the bey as well.

Putting weights and recoils aside, measuring pure smash capability of a wheel is really difficult. If you could come out with a standardized method to yield numerical result that represents a wheel's smash capability, it would be extremeeeeeeely great! I'm definitely looking forward to it.

Writer of Recoil Article on Beywiki Wrote:to spring or fly back
...
the Beyblade is knocked in the opposite direction

So, this seems good, since it is just an action, not a force.

And, in 2 months (or more, depending on time), I should be able to devise a proper scientifically-based method that actually uses numbers, considering that's the proper way experiments work. Terms I might use are density, mass, inertia and speed of a contact point (though not really a characteristic of a wheel without major assumptions such as a consistent launch speed. But maybe I can include that in the "universal formula").
Bahahaha, I love this thread. Physics ftw in my life, so many kudos to you for coming up with this.

A master formula would be awesome, hopefully it won't be too much of a hassle to come up with.


EDIT: So me and Fish have been talking (discussing carefully in his words, haha), and we've come up with this so far:

ƒ¡$h Wrote:
Kujikato Wrote:
ƒ¡$h Wrote:
Kujikato Wrote:
Kujikato Wrote:
ƒ¡$h Wrote:
Kujikato Wrote:
ƒ¡$h Wrote:The constituents of force [of smash] and lots of formulae:

-Mass (how it influences recoil)
-Speed of contact point
-Friction
-Inertia
-Recoil (how it affects the distance both beys go)
-Density

and others

We'll have to factor in the percentage chance of hitting at the contact point though.

Masses are easy to come by here, we have an entire spreadsheet of them. I'll try and find them. How it affects recoil is much harder though. I feel that it dampens the recoil, since the weight 'resists' the knockback that occurs. Nyeh.

Speed of contact point I suppose we could take a constant. The average RPM of a bey. Then multiply it by 0.75, 0.5, 0.25 as the length of a match goes on. Late game smashers would still be able to KO at the 0.25 RPM point. Another thing is how fast the bey is moving before the collision, I suppose we can separate that into velocity.

Friction only kinda occurs in three points: Bottom/Tip of the bey, The air around them (negligible) and when the two beys hit. I think we can safely focus only on the nature of the tip. Namely RF, R2F, LRF, WF, XF, GF, CF, & GCF for offense and RS, RB, RSF, CS, & MB for defense. Please add any tips if I missed them. I wonder if this would really characterize the smash of a wheel. We COULD have this as an optional segment for "Total smash in a combo" though.

Inertia... Hmm. This comes down to weight distribution really, not much I can help here. Can't recall much.

Recoil is the biggest problem. I have NO idea how we're gonna measure it without banging up some beys. Try to talk to some of the advanced members, maybe they have some ideas.

Density should be relatively simple. We'll just take the volume of the wheels and get the measurements. We'll look at the correlation later on. Though I think that it has the same effect as weight does, dampening the negative effects of recoil.

Some of these are more for in-game/in-combo smash though. I think focusing on the Metal Wheels first would help, meaning we might focus more on:

- Weight
- Density
- % Chance of Contact Point
- Rotational Velocity
- Inertia (Bleh)
- Recoil

Thoughts?

Ok. So we'll start working on a formula? And Recoil, well we know that energy can only converted, so we can do some form of complementary (if that's the word) subtraction. And If we jiggle all the formulae around, we'll get something. As for density, it might have something to do with the recoil dampening, or sorts.

Chance of contact point: I believe we might be just working on the force of a particular contact point (I mean literally a point).
That being said, do you want to just focus on maximum possible smash then? So like, calculate the amount of 'punch' a contact point has?

That could work, we'd just get the average of the wheel's 'punch' power to get the rough average of smash.

So right now, you have your ratio thing, which I am assuming works on the concept of flywheel smash. Not very sure on how you got it though, care to elaborate?


We ought to get a base value from a wheel like Earth or Reviser to have a 0 smash control. Basalt will be VERY interesting to explain though, haha.

So right now we're kinda focusing on

- Weight (Recoil dampening)
- Density (Recoil dampening)
- Recoil dampening (We'll need a definition for this then)
- Recoil
- Weight Distribution
- The smash axis thingy

In a wheel's overall maximum smash.

We'll use the concept of 100% potential. So that minor issues can be avoided.

What I was thinking was an actual calculation of force that a attack (more relevant) point could deal, so we could come up with something like Smash=YadiYada!xBlahBlah^2. Actual physics formulae and calculations. This seems to be a good professional way of calculating smash, rather than how far a bey goes, now that I think about it. But we might just be able to add it in as proof of theory, if you get what I mean.

We're going to need a whole lot more measurements then. A pressure sensor would be needed. Something that... Well... Could measure how many Newtons the bey delivers in a hit.

Oh my gosh! Why didn't I think of that before?! Too cool, bro. Nice job. All I have to to is get a Newton meter or the likes...

Since I don't have every single wheel in the world, this will need to become an active world participation effort. Then, we could rank the wheels in order of the force of the smash.

So, does this make the calculations obsolete? I feel the need to do calculations and experimentation.

Kudos to you, though!

Actually.

You just need to do the Newton reading from a bey that you have. Then use that to estimate the smash of every other wheel. Use the ambiguous smash formula that has no units.

So we have
- Raw smash power of a wheel (in Newtons)
- Their smash ratio (using your line method for now, we'll figure out a formula as we go along)

Which allows us to calculate the rough raw power of EVERY wheel at it's maximum.

So we've come up with the basic idea for how to calculate maximum smash of a wheel by using something along the lines of a pressure sensor. We still have to apply other things into it, along with more non-experimental calculations, but for now any thoughts from you guys?