Odin is absolutely not as huge of a threat now because of the plethora of Attack-based options available to easily defeat it. L2 especially destroys it, and at the very least, V2 and Z2 do well against it too like FIREFIRE CPB mentioned.

If Deathscyther and D2 are banned, yes obviously Odin will go to the "top of the heap" in terms of Stamina–something has to when you remove the best Stamina Layer (D) and tied-for-second-best Stamina Layer (D2) from the game–but it doesn't have the same Defense to back it up as D2 does, and the metagame now is much different than it was in 2015 when it dominated with all of the new weapons available for Attack.

---

V2 is definitely not in the same league as V1 and Lost Longinus. 

How so? I think quite a few people other than myself have found Victory Valkyrie more consistent at beating Odin.

GV is untested

I had done some testings God Valkryie a little while ago and plan on posting a topic for it. I found God Valkyrie 4 Vortex Reboot had managed to remain upright and outspin Odin Heavy Defense, in addition to several Burst Finishes and a single Over Finish. Obviously this was personal observation, so you can perceive this how ever you choose to.

Hm OK, why is there suddenly little objection to Dark Deathscyther's ban when it has been SPAMming in all of our Winning Combinations lists for months and people seemed so against it back then hah? I am very sure that I brought up the need to ban that Dual Layer way earlier and I was met with a wall of people who appeared to find the game still plenty fun... Has anything changed? Because for me and definitely other Bladers I know, Burst has been a boring game for a long while, to the point where we lost interest in it and are now unlikely to order any new products unless absolutely primordial. There are other factors, but the Deathscyther family SPAM has been a key element for us.

For sure, I am glad for this change of heart, but it is not at all what I was expecting today.

I can't say I'm surprised

Hm OK, why is there suddenly little objection to Dark Deathscyther's ban when it has been SPAMming in all of our Winning Combinations lists for months and people seemed so against it back then hah? I am very sure that I brought up the need to ban that Dual Layer way earlier and I was met with a wall of people who appeared to find the game still plenty fun... Has anything changed? Because for me and definitely other Bladers I know, Burst has been a boring game for a long while, to the point where we lost interest in it and are now unlikely to order any new products unless absolutely primordial. There are other factors, but the Deathscyther family SPAM has been a key element for us.

For sure, I am glad for this change of heart, but it is not at all what I was expecting today.

I think the rise of l2 and d2 being the only consistent counter has been what's changed in the meta

---

Personally, I don't really think D2 should be banned flat-out. Never tested out Odin, so not going to comment on that. But yeah, D2 definitely has its counters like Deathscyther (D2 always bursts before Deathscyther does despite Deathscyther being worn down), Minoboros, and unconventional KO/double burst combos like SKX or W2FX, not to mention the recent A2 that I've tested on and RBv4 W2 (according to @[FIREFIRE CPB]) on Yielding are slowly catching up to match it's power. Also, L2 needs a lot more than just K2 as a counter, and so far we've seen D2 should be used as a counter against the L2 meta.

Okay i'll give it a shot. As always just because D and D2 win a lot doesn't mean they should be banned. They're the best parts. That's what they're supposed to do. However if we're having a debate on which should be banned I say D2 over D since D2 doesn't burst as easily so it's less defeatable by attack types. That would leave Odin and Deathscyther which while powerful can be stopped with good lot of the time. However while it kinda sound dumb to go with the tactic of wait and see if new releases make a difference (especially when it didn't really work last time) i'd really be surprised if Drain Fafnir didn't have an significant impact on the metagame.

---

Personally, I don't really think D2 should be banned flat-out. Never tested out Odin, so not going to comment on that. But yeah, D2 definitely has its counters like Deathscyther (D2 always bursts before Deathscyther does despite Deathscyther being worn down), Minoboros, and unconventional KO/double burst combos like SKX or W2FX, not to mention the recent A2 that I've tested on and RBv4 W2 (according to @[FIREFIRE CPB]) on Yielding are slowly catching up to match it's power. Also, L2 needs a lot more than just K2 as a counter, and so far we've seen D2 should be used as a counter against the L2 meta.

If the opponent also varies their launch strength, then I am quite sure that it is possible to render Lost Longinus' weak launch mostly useless. There is just no reason only the Lost Longius user would be able to weak launch and steal spin or burst the opponent hah.

I agree with Ultra on this one. While Deathscyther is a really strong layer, it is still quite easy to Burst it with any kind of aggressive layer. Doesn't mean that I wouldn't want to see both of them banned, though. Those two layers are a part of the reason why I completely lost interest in Burst.

---

If the opponent also varies their launch strength, then I am quite sure that it is possible to render Lost Longinus' weak launch mostly useless. There is just no reason only the Lost Longius user would be able to weak launch and steal spin or burst the opponent hah.

The main issue with this would be a very tedious launch strength recalibration, which is twice as worse when you factor in at least one point won by L2 is necessary in order to know how hard the opponent is launching at (unless you decide to watch every single video footage of your opponent and make a very detailed profile of them to calculate specifically how powerful they would launch L2), or you simply manage to predict the opponent somehow (which is not exactly reliable). Also, launch strength doesn't really matter anyway since you'd know how would the opponent expect to win, like Spread with Hold is pretty much spin steal or KO, while Gravity Xtreme is simply burst finish or KO. Altering launch strength doesn't change much because you're not going to stop Gravity Xtreme with a weaker launch, nor will that be effective against Spread Hold since it's spin equalization, which means if you pick Spread Revolve against it you'll win no matter what.

The main issue with this would be a very tedious launch strength recalibration, which is twice as worse when you factor in at least one point won by L2 is necessary in order to know how hard the opponent is launching at (unless you decide to watch every single video footage of your opponent and make a very detailed profile of them to calculate specifically how powerful they would launch L2), or you simply manage to predict the opponent somehow (which is not exactly reliable). Also, launch strength doesn't really matter anyway since you'd know how would the opponent expect to win, like Spread with Hold is pretty much spin steal or KO, while Gravity Xtreme is simply burst finish or KO. Altering launch strength doesn't change much because you're not going to stop Gravity Xtreme with a weaker launch, nor will that be effective against Spread Hold since it's spin equalization, which means if you pick Spread Revolve against it you'll win no matter what.

I was refering to Lost Longinus on Hold. I would not really expect to see much Lost Longinus on Xtreme.

Personally, I don't really think D2 should be banned flat-out. Never tested out Odin, so not going to comment on that. But yeah, D2 definitely has its counters like Deathscyther (D2 always bursts before Deathscyther does despite Deathscyther being worn down), Minoboros, and unconventional KO/double burst combos like SKX or W2FX, not to mention the recent A2 that I've tested on and RBv4 W2 (according to @[FIREFIRE CPB]) on Yielding are slowly catching up to match it's power. Also, L2 needs a lot more than just K2 as a counter, and so far we've seen D2 should be used as a counter against the L2 meta.

TBH I kinda disagree with this. Even if it's counters exsist, they aren't something you will mostly relie on to battle (except Deathscyther and Minobors but they can be countered very easily too so people will thing twice before using them esspecially in presents of L2 and other stong attacker) and after thinking alot they may just get back to D2 instead of using D as it's way safer. It's problem is kinda same as what Basalt did, sure it's not nearly as overpowered but problem is most of good things/Top-Tier can't beat it and things that can aren't nearly as good aginst everything else (possibly W2? But testing is needed). Also as only Deathscyther and Chaos can OS it (which won't stand even few sec against it's agressive contact points btw) many won't even bother using Attack as it iron walls most of them and Minoboros isn't as good against other things. Valkyrie is good answer to everything but it wears preventing many from using it + L2 will dominate any V combo without breaking sweat. Though I agree L2 may dominate once D2 banned so we should do some more testing and wait for atleast April release so maybe they can change meta completely.

A solution I see to this would keep an experimental ban on D2 and see what else does best and if everything balance outs.

---

Gotta love how Lui ruined Shu's life for like the 3rd time now.

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India Special!!

Spoiler (Click to View)

Touranments:- Next Event on March 12! (See my profile and go to all topics made by me)
Hosts:- FIREFIRE, Ashton Pinto, Ronitnath, Alex Mercer, Maximum Dranzer, Arijit Sarkar
Answer to all questions!! https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Bey-Tou...pid1311852

My Combos and Setups!! (Click to View)

STD:-
MSF-H Bahamadia Dragoon BD145LRF
MSF-L Genbu Genbu SA165WD
MSF-H Balro Balro DF105RF
MSF-H Wyvang Dragoon BD145RDF
MSF-L Girago Dragoon F230GCF



LTD:-
MF Pegasis 105RF
MF-H Lighting L-Drago 100LRF
MF-H Flame Cygnus 230CS
MF Scythe Libra 85MF
MF-L Virgo CH120CS
Meteo L-Drago 105XF


Zero-G:-
MSF-H Balro Dragoon/Balro SA165FB
Wyvang Dragoon SA165BWD [i know strange :p]
Genbu Genbu B:D

Plastics:-
Driger V2 Upgraded

AR:- Corona Saber
WD:- Wide Defence
SG:- HMC Right 
BB:- Defence Grip Base (Attack Mode)

AR:- Twin Horn
SAR:- Dragoon Saucer
WD:- Wide Defence
SG:- Double Bearing Left
BB:- Defence Grip Base
Tip:- Bearing Core 2

HMS;-
AR:- Circle Upper
WD:- Defence Ring
RC:- Metal Change

Wolborg MS

[/spoiler]

Hm OK, why is there suddenly little objection to Dark Deathscyther's ban when it has been SPAMming in all of our Winning Combinations lists for months and people seemed so against it back then hah? I am very sure that I brought up the need to ban that Dual Layer way earlier and I was met with a wall of people who appeared to find the game still plenty fun... Has anything changed? Because for me and definitely other Bladers I know, Burst has been a boring game for a long while, to the point where we lost interest in it and are now unlikely to order any new products unless absolutely primordial. There are other factors, but the Deathscyther family SPAM has been a key element for us.

For sure, I am glad for this change of heart, but it is not at all what I was expecting today.

Personally, I've always thought that Deathscyther and D2 was worthy of consideration to be banned. However don't get me wrong, just because I've felt that way doesn't mean that I don't find the game fun as it stands; I still think it's great because there is indeed counters to both Layers (albeit, in the case of D2 they are quite specific). I haven't found the game boring at all, but there are other issues here worth considering that could make the game different and more accessible. The issue isn't that either Layer is unbeatable, it's that:

a) They likely make the game more Stamina/Defense-oriented than it could be without them. With D2 gone, none of the available Stamina or Defense Layers have the same combination of both Stamina and Defense at the same time as D2 does. And even a brand new Deathscyther still has a decent amount of Defense in addition to Stamina given the large first tooth it has. In making a decision like this we would consciously be doing something that will likely make Attack-based combinations more viable competitively. We have to ask ourselves: are we fine with that? I'd like to think the answer is "yes".

b) Deathscyther presents an ever-increasing barrier for new players given that it has long since ceased production. Given that it wears relatively quickly (though not as quickly as you suggested, in my opinion), this means that it will become more expensive and hard to find over time as the top players start hoarding them for future use; like I am. This makes tournament results of players using Deathscyther more meaningless as time goes on because it isn't reasonable to expect new players to buy multiple copies of an extremely old Layer that has ceased production and will go up in price. I wish this wasn't a factor, but given that we are the World Beyblade Organization and want to do things that will make the game as approachable as possible to players of all ages and financial backgrounds, allowing Deathscyther to stay in the game at this point seems misguided. Deathscyther has plenty of counters, but as the best Stamina Layer in the game it's impossible to counter in a Stamina battle for someone who doesn't have it. In my opinion, with all of this considered, it's had a good enough run at this point to finally enter our own "Hall of Fame".

Personally, I don't really think D2 should be banned flat-out. Never tested out Odin, so not going to comment on that. But yeah, D2 definitely has its counters like Deathscyther (D2 always bursts before Deathscyther does despite Deathscyther being worn down), Minoboros, and unconventional KO/double burst combos like SKX or W2FX, not to mention the recent A2 that I've tested on and RBv4 W2 (according to @[FIREFIRE CPB]) on Yielding are slowly catching up to match it's power. Also, L2 needs a lot more than just K2 as a counter, and so far we've seen D2 should be used as a counter against the L2 meta.

As I mentioned above, I agree that D2 does indeed have counters. The issue is that the only ones you've listed here that–to my knowledge–can consistently or somewhat consistently counter D2 are Deathscyther (an out-of-production, relatively quickly wearing Layer) and Minoboros (an also out-of-production Layer which does well against D2 but requires a higher level of skill to wield and really can only be used somewhat reliably in Deck Format finals because you'd be taking a gamble in the first stage of events in guessing when your opponent was going to use D2). Odin and Wyvern can also stand up to D2, but are more even than anything, meaning that the stronger launch/better balanced combo will probably win depending on the situation. The issue really isn't whether D2 can be beat with Stamina combos, but that it has such a strong combination of Stamina and Defense that no other Layer has, making Attack usage less viable across the board in the metagame.

And unfortunately, while there are many Layers that seem to randomly be able to burst D2; I don't think any of the other ones you've mentioned are able to do so consistently enough to win a best 3/5 match. At least, that has been the case for the past year in Toronto.

---

I also don't think the answer is "let's just wait and see what the new releases do". We've done that for a year. This is the same issue that stopped us from banning Basalt during the MFB era. There's no reason why we couldn't make a decision now and then reverse it again in the future if things do indeed change. We should be proactive.

---

I was refering to Lost Longinus on Hold. I would not really expect to see much Lost Longinus on Xtreme.

I'll just use L2SH as an example here. The only real counters to it are K2, B2 and Z2 (since those are burst resistant enough against low stamina L2, and the latter two layers are hardly consistent enough to resist bursting) for dual layers, and it's pretty clear that whoever gets LAD/precession would eventually win (except K2 which has plastic protrusions that adds a bit of stamina). This means there's a pretty good chance of winning against L2SH with Z2SR or something similar, regardless of launch power in most situations since the SF advantage is not with L2SH. As many have pointed out, L2 stops spinning abruptly. Despite this, neither B2 nor Z2 are reliable counters to L2 as L2 also possesses bursting properties, leaving K2 the only dual layer that can reliably counter L2.

TBH I kinda disagree with this. Even if it's counters exsist, they aren't something you will mostly relie on to battle (except Deathscyther and Minobors but they can be countered very easily too so people will thing twice before using them esspecially in presents of L2 and other stong attacker) and after thinking alot they may just get back to D2 instead of using D as it's way safer. It's problem is kinda same as what Basalt did, sure it's not nearly as overpowered but problem is most of good things/Top-Tier can't beat it and things that can aren't nearly as good aginst everything else (possibly W2? But testing is needed). Also as only Deathscyther and Chaos can OS it (which won't stand even few sec against it's agressive contact points btw) many won't even bother using Attack as it iron walls most of them and Minoboros isn't as good against other things. Valkyrie is good answer to everything but it wears preventing many from using it + L2 will dominate any V combo without breaking sweat. Though I agree L2 may dominate once D2 banned so we should do some more testing and wait for atleast April release so maybe they can change meta completely.

You really can't do anything against D2 with stamina combos, therefore spin finishes are out of the picture for now, leaving KO and burst combos the prime way to win against D2. As D2 itself can't burst finish others reliably, weaker layers are free to be used in these combos. This is also why I proposed that Spriggan Knuckle Xtreme can be a viable combo despite it being so easily bursted in other situations, because it's a viable KO combo while simultaneously capable of bursting/double burst D2. Therefore, you have to use attack combos against D2 to win in most cases.

As I mentioned above, I agree that D2 does indeed have counters. The issue is that the only ones you've listed here that–to my knowledge–can consistently or somewhat consistently counter D2 are Deathscyther (an out-of-production, relatively quickly wearing Layer) and Minoboros (an also out-of-production Layer which does well against D2 but requires a higher level of skill to wield and really can only be used somewhat reliably in Deck Format finals because you'd be taking a gamble in the first stage of events in guessing when your opponent was going to use D2). Odin and Wyvern can also stand up to D2, but are more even than anything, meaning that the stronger launch/better balanced combo will probably win depending on the situation. The issue really isn't whether D2 can be beat with Stamina combos, but that it has such a strong combination of Stamina and Defense that no other Layer has, making Attack usage less viable across the board in the metagame.

As I've mentioned above, D2 does require active offense to win. Though I agree that D2 does have both good stamina and defense, I still regard it as "the standard" for burst beys. D2 is a good layer, and there's really nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Instead of banning the usage of a good layer, there should be remolds of previously bad layers in order to make them usable again by giving them better teeth or contact points to balance the meta, not ban something because it's good. I'd rather see a trash bey battle a good bey than watching two pieces of junk clashing into each other and double bursting in the end since neither were burst resistant in the first place.

I'll just use L2SH as an example here. The only real counters to it are K2, B2 and Z2 (since those are burst resistant enough against low stamina L2, and the latter two layers are hardly consistent enough to resist bursting) for dual layers, and it's pretty clear that whoever gets LAD/precession would eventually win (except K2 which has plastic protrusions that adds a bit of stamina). This means there's a pretty good chance of winning against L2SH with Z2SR or something similar, regardless of launch power in most situations since the SF advantage is not with L2SH. As many have pointed out, L2 stops spinning abruptly. Despite this, neither B2 nor Z2 are reliable counters to L2 as L2 also possesses bursting properties, leaving K2 the only dual layer that can reliably counter L2. You really can't do anything against D2 with stamina combos, therefore spin finishes are out of the picture for now, leaving KO and burst combos the prime way to win against D2. As D2 itself can't burst finish others reliably, weaker layers are free to be used in these combos. This is also why I proposed that Spriggan Knuckle Xtreme can be a viable combo despite it being so easily bursted in other situations, because it's a viable KO combo while simultaneously capable of bursting/double burst D2. Therefore, you have to use attack combos against D2 to win in most cases.As I've mentioned above, D2 does require active offense to win. Though I agree that D2 does have both good stamina and defense, I still regard it as "the standard" for burst beys. D2 is a good layer, and there's really nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Instead of banning the usage of a good layer, there should be remolds of previously bad layers in order to make them usable again by giving them better teeth or contact points to balance the meta, not ban something because it's good. I'd rather see a trash bey battle a good bey than watching two pieces of junk clashing into each other and double bursting in the end since neither were burst resistant in the first place.

Spriggan does not reliably defeat Dark Deathscyther or Deathscyther at all. It has good chances, but it is not reliable at doing so. 

Moreover, we are way done with waiting for TAKARA-TOMY to do remolds, as you are suggesting, so when we cannot rely on the official creator to make any adjustments and that they themselves only see a solution in banning a part, then why the hell would you not do it as well? Your ideal world will not happen, so meanwhile the metagame and fans are suffering...

Spriggan does not reliably defeat Dark Deathscyther or Deathscyther at all. It has good chances, but it is not reliable at doing so. 

Moreover, we are way done with waiting for TAKARA-TOMY to do remolds, as you are suggesting, so when we cannot rely on the official creator to make any adjustments and that they themselves only see a solution in banning a part, then why the hell would you not do it as well? Your ideal world will not happen, so meanwhile the metagame and fans are suffering...

I do have to admit Spriggan isn't reliable at winning, but this is also true for any KO combos in the burst series. Unless TT figures out a way to revive KO, no amount of combo building effort would be useful.
Ever watched the "Dual layer, dual fun" tournament video? Now, how many dual layers do you spot in said video? I got tired of hitting the replay button since I don't see any of them, so I'll just go out on a limb here and say absolutely none. Yeah, the situation is this bad. Without D2, how many dual layers would be in use? L2, the occasional K2, V2, Z2, X2, B2, the very occasional A2, O2... That makes what, eight? But let's be real here, you'd most likely only use two of the above. Without D2, it's pretty much a single layer meta again. Seeing how TT's not producing them anymore, I seriously doubt how newbie-friendly this community really is. Are we seriously going to deny the very last of viable choices available? Or is it just okay for them to wait for new releases while everyone hates waiting for new molds? Is that fair in any way possible?

I do have to admit Spriggan isn't reliable at winning, but this is also true for any KO combos in the burst series. Unless TT figures out a way to revive KO, no amount of combo building effort would be useful.
Ever watched the "Dual layer, dual fun" tournament video? Now, how many dual layers do you spot in said video? I got tired of hitting the replay button since I don't see any of them, so I'll just go out on a limb here and say absolutely none. Yeah, the situation is this bad. Without D2, how many dual layers would be in use? L2, the occasional K2, V2, Z2, X2, B2, the very occasional A2, O2... That makes what, eight? But let's be real here, you'd most likely only use two of the above. Without D2, it's pretty much a single layer meta again. Seeing how TT's not producing them anymore, I seriously doubt how newbie-friendly this community really is. Are we seriously going to deny the very last of viable choices available? Or is it just okay for them to wait for new releases while everyone hates waiting for new molds? Is that fair in any way possible?

There are Odin, Deathscyther, Xcaliber and plentry of single layer too which aren;t that hard to get (mainly focusing international/non-Japanese buyers) + there is hasbro parts too (which I know some asian may not have access to but if they released in india or somewhere it will be still possible to get them for low cost)

---

Gotta love how Lui ruined Shu's life for like the 3rd time now.

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India Special!!

Spoiler (Click to View)

Touranments:- Next Event on March 12! (See my profile and go to all topics made by me)
Hosts:- FIREFIRE, Ashton Pinto, Ronitnath, Alex Mercer, Maximum Dranzer, Arijit Sarkar
Answer to all questions!! https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Bey-Tou...pid1311852

My Combos and Setups!! (Click to View)

STD:-
MSF-H Bahamadia Dragoon BD145LRF
MSF-L Genbu Genbu SA165WD
MSF-H Balro Balro DF105RF
MSF-H Wyvang Dragoon BD145RDF
MSF-L Girago Dragoon F230GCF



LTD:-
MF Pegasis 105RF
MF-H Lighting L-Drago 100LRF
MF-H Flame Cygnus 230CS
MF Scythe Libra 85MF
MF-L Virgo CH120CS
Meteo L-Drago 105XF


Zero-G:-
MSF-H Balro Dragoon/Balro SA165FB
Wyvang Dragoon SA165BWD [i know strange :p]
Genbu Genbu B:D

Plastics:-
Driger V2 Upgraded

AR:- Corona Saber
WD:- Wide Defence
SG:- HMC Right 
BB:- Defence Grip Base (Attack Mode)

AR:- Twin Horn
SAR:- Dragoon Saucer
WD:- Wide Defence
SG:- Double Bearing Left
BB:- Defence Grip Base
Tip:- Bearing Core 2

HMS;-
AR:- Circle Upper
WD:- Defence Ring
RC:- Metal Change

Wolborg MS

[/spoiler]

I do have to admit Spriggan isn't reliable at winning, but this is also true for any KO combos in the burst series. Unless TT figures out a way to revive KO, no amount of combo building effort would be useful.
Ever watched the "Dual layer, dual fun" tournament video? Now, how many dual layers do you spot in said video? I got tired of hitting the replay button since I don't see any of them, so I'll just go out on a limb here and say absolutely none. Yeah, the situation is this bad. Without D2, how many dual layers would be in use? L2, the occasional K2, V2, Z2, X2, B2, the very occasional A2, O2... That makes what, eight? But let's be real here, you'd most likely only use two of the above. Without D2, it's pretty much a single layer meta again. Seeing how TT's not producing them anymore, I seriously doubt how newbie-friendly this community really is. Are we seriously going to deny the very last of viable choices available? Or is it just okay for them to wait for new releases while everyone hates waiting for new molds? Is that fair in any way possible?

D2's existence is more hostile to new players than its removal would be. D2's primary counters are also Single Layers, and its presence may be stifling the use of other potentially competitive Dual Layers. Removing D2 means that new players lose one option that's more easily accessible, but it also makes repeated purchases of Deathscyther less necessary (or completely unnecessary if it's also banned). Wyvern and Odin do not suffer much from any wearing issues, so there's no need to buy many duplicates, unlike Deathscyther which does wear out rapidly. Furthermore, without D2 or Deathscyther in play, I expect we would see more attempts to use Xtreme or Variable-based attack, especially those using V2 or Valtryek V2, since D2 is no longer a concern and stationary Attack is no longer necessary to fight mint Deathscyther. Removing D2 and possibly Deathscyther opens up the game for more Dual Layers and Hasbro parts to see use, particularly those that are currently overshadowed by Deathscyther's high Stamina and D2's unique Stamina/Defense mix.

---

Threads and combos!

Spoiler (Click to View)

[LTD] MF Jade Horogium 85RSF
[LTD] RB / RSF Attack
[LTD] Ronin Genbull (Crystal Up) 85RF
MF-H Phantom (Attack) Cancer 85RB
MSF-H Wyvang Ifraid GB145RF {Alternative to Wyvang^2 with more Upper Attack}
MSF-H Genbull Genbull 85RSF {Improved version of the above Phantom combo}
Balro Begirados 100RF {LTAC with both Upper Smash and regular Smash}
[LTD] MF-H Lightning L-Drago 85RB {more controllable Lightning LTAC}
[LTD] Burn Orion 105SF {Destabilizer}

There are Odin, Deathscyther, Xcaliber and plentry of single layer too which aren;t that hard to get (mainly focusing international/non-Japanese buyers) + there is hasbro parts too (which I know some asian may not have access to but if they released in india or somewhere it will be still possible to get them for low cost)

As you've said, Hasbro parts are inaccessible to Asians. Also, single layers are indeed hard to get for most youngsters because they don't have credit cards, meaning they can't just shop off Amazon or Ebay. Considering the 8-13 year old core audience is a key part in beyblade, I don't see where this is going.

D2's existence is more hostile to new players than its removal would be. D2's primary counters are also Single Layers, and its presence may be stifling the use of other potentially competitive Dual Layers. Removing D2 means that new players lose one option that's more easily accessible, but it also makes repeated purchases of Deathscyther less necessary (or completely unnecessary if it's also banned). Wyvern and Odin do not suffer much from any wearing issues, so there's no need to buy many duplicates, unlike Deathscyther which does wear out rapidly. Furthermore, without D2 or Deathscyther in play, I expect we would see more attempts to use Xtreme or Variable-based attack, especially those using V2 or Valtryek V2, since D2 is no longer a concern and stationary Attack is no longer necessary to fight mint Deathscyther. Removing D2 and possibly Deathscyther opens up the game for more Dual Layers and Hasbro parts to see use, particularly those that are currently overshadowed by Deathscyther's high Stamina and D2's unique Stamina/Defense mix.

The meta with dual layers seem to lie in the L2, K2 and B2 trifecta rock-paper-scissors combo. K2 beats L2 with spin steal, L2 beats B2 with burst, B2 beats K2 with stamina (Probably? Never tested B2 against K2 in defense-stamina combos). V2 just can't win against all three of the above, so V2 attack combos are still getting the shaft. While I do agree that D2 removal does open up a bit more parts (removal of a good layer always validates previously worse layers), this may not be so with the introduction of the trio, since KO combos like SKX would just lose every turn due to bad teeth (except maybe against K2 or something, but even then the chances are still fairly low). Again, the trifecta is left for single layers to break. Compared to D2, I'd say that its removal will revive B2 and K2 at best, yet invalidate W2 and more fragile layers at worst.

Amendment: Did some mirror tests and K2 is capable of outspinning B2. That leaves the meta in the following pattern.
L2 > B2, L2 > Z2, L2 < K2
B2 > Z2, B2 < L2, B2 < K2
K2 > B2, K2 > L2, K2 < Z2
Z2 > K2, Z2 < L2, Z2 < B2
Considering how Z2 can be bursted easily, I don't think Z2 would be used much, leaving the remaining three layers the reigning trio.

Reading everyone's responses in this thread has been very interesting. I'm beginning to agree that D2 should be banned outright, but only if Deathscyther also is at the same time. Which, honestly, I've welcomed for awhile even though it has some solid counters. I'm always stressed about my Deathscythers wearing out, and it's difficult and expensive to get new blue and teal ones (arguably the best molds all around). Since it's retired into the hall of fame, getting them will only become harder and more expensive, and everyone will feel the need to keep spending because of the layer's continued dominance. I keep saying I'll buy more, then look at my bank account and say "maybe I should prioritize something other than a bajillion secondhand random boosters..."

If both of them are removed from the equation, I think the game will become far more fun, and choosing attack will become a far more viable an option on a regular basis!

Reading everyone's responses in this thread has been very interesting. I'm beginning to agree that D2 should be banned outright, but only if Deathscyther also is at the same time. Which, honestly, I've welcomed for awhile even though it has some solid counters. I'm always stressed about my Deathscythers wearing out, and it's difficult and expensive to get new blue and teal ones (arguably the best molds all around). Since it's retired into the hall of fame, getting them will only become harder and more expensive, and everyone will feel the need to keep spending because of the layer's continued dominance. I keep saying I'll buy more, then look at my bank account and say "maybe I should prioritize something other than a bajillion secondhand random boosters..."

If both of them are removed from the equation, I think the game will become far more fun, and choosing attack will become a far more viable an option on a regular basis!

Why? Deathscyther is a lot easier to burst than D2. It's not as much of a threat to metagame balance as D2 is. Attack is a perfectly viable option to beat D but not so much D2.

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@[Ultra], @[Kei] Has articulated all my sentiments about Deathscyther above in the thread more eloquently than I could? This quote in particular resonates with me very strongly:

Deathscyther presents an ever-increasing barrier for new players given that it has long since ceased production. Given that it wears relatively quickly (though not as quickly as you suggested, in my opinion), this means that it will become more expensive and hard to find over time as the top players start hoarding them for future use; like I am.

(Sorry for the weird, indirect quote here: selecting quotes doesn't seem to be working for me on desktop today.)

@[Ultra], @[Kei] Has articulated all my sentiments about Deathscyther above in the thread more eloquently than I could? This quote in particular resonates with me very strongly:


(Sorry for the weird, indirect quote here: selecting quotes doesn't seem to be working for me on desktop today.)

No offence but if something is very powerful and must for competetive and is getting harder and harder to obtain, doesn't mean we should ban it. White Gabriel G's Attack Ring, Twin Horn G (Hasbro) is very hard to get too + BEYXTREMELY powerful (quite a bit like D2 of PLA) and it's still isn't banned yet. Yes I agree beaing it is easier compared to D2, if you see it's counters are limited too, so let's count, Upper Attack, Left Spin Attack, Right Spin Zombie (Which too have to use THG as it won't have that precession if used something less good like War Lion) and ?. Let's count Dark Deathscyther's counters. Minoboros, A2/W2 (kinda. Incosnsistant), Deathscyther and ?. Seems kinda similer right lol? But if we can keep THG legal then what's the problem to keep Deathscyther legal, as it's still less of a treat then both of my example.

Edit:- I just realized in Plastics there are more option for same type of combo that can actually work but my intention of taking Gabriel as example was it's very expensive but a must if you want to win tournament (which can be done with other combos too but this is safest). If we see D isn't really big of a treat and have other beys too that have around similer amount of stamina (aka Odin mold 1. But it's getting rare too but not as much as deathscyther). And if you think maybe removing D2 will open a way for new stamina for shine? like Hasbro ones and newer release (maybe untested things like U2).

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Gotta love how Lui ruined Shu's life for like the 3rd time now.

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MSF-H Bahamadia Dragoon BD145LRF
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Driger V2 Upgraded

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WD:- Wide Defence
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BB:- Defence Grip Base (Attack Mode)

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BB:- Defence Grip Base
Tip:- Bearing Core 2

HMS;-
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RC:- Metal Change

Wolborg MS

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I would never take offense to a differing opinion! I just personally think the fact that it's out of production and will become increasingly difficult for newcomers to obtain PLUS its quick wear down problem becomes just as valid a point (when coupled together) in favor of a ban as "layer is too OP" in the case of D2.

Deathscyther may have viable counters, but it's still dominating the current metagame on a consistent basis, especially when people bust out well-balanced NIB ones for tournaments. It's a safe choice that can outspin pretty much any layer in the game, including D2.

But I recognize some people won't see eye-to-eye with me on this. When Deathscyther was first banned in Japan, I didn't get it either because Valkyrie existed. It's more the fact that it's been banned for awhile and is out of production that's made me reconsider my opinion on it. New players are going to have a very tough time getting it, and seasoned players are going to become more and more hesitant to lend the layer out to new players as they worry about their remaining Deathscyther horde wearing down.

The issue is, there's currently two sides to this;

1) Deathscyther is old. It's not in print, and it should naturally ban itself over time.

2) Deathscyther is old, but it's good. Anyone competitive has already hoarded them knowing they'll be good for a long time, and other players then have to face these because they've naturally banned themselves over time.

Dark Deathscyther will eventually have the exact same situation as above throughout the God Layer System's lifetime. Between the two above; I feel like the second point is honestly a more prominent reason to ban than the first point is against the ban; anyone joining the metagame now has to deal with these parts that simply aren't accessible to them, that even Takara-Tomy themselves accept are simply too good/consistent.

Yes, both Deathscyther and Dark Deathscyther have counters. Everything has a counter, that's just how it is. But what about the consistency of the counters? It's all well and good using D/D2 as counters for everything else, but when the main things that can counter these back are inconsistent or situational combinations, there's clearly an issue there.

The crew in London are aware of how vocal I am about matchups like this that I just find boring, predictable or stale. I normally end up doing some over-the-top commentary when we end up with a matchup like that to lighten the mood! Though the sad part is that even I get use out of the Layers, and I'm vocal about my distaste for using them as well, but they're just so consistent that, if I really want to place that day, I'll end up using them at some points to ensure I get enough wins to enter the finals. It's just how it is, and I'd rather be using more interesting and varied combinations, as I'm sure some others would as well.

In the end, I wouldn't mind seeing them banned. It'd be a breath of fresh air honestly, but my worry would be the same then happening with Odin afterwards. But that's just my two cents really.

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