@[Kei]

Any reason why no used attack or L2 or Odin? Based on what i've seen from tourneys where I am L2 is definitely viable.

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Plus, Vulcan Horuseus was a Defense type, from what I recall, but it was clearly top-tier in Attack instead. This is not new in Beyblade.

True, but it wasn't the only go to part during its time. pegasis, storm, and fury cosmic were also able to be top tier attack. Not to mention vulcan could've been easily countered with earth combos.

In burst, dark deathscyther is a defender and staMina part which was initally designed for attack. There are little to no couter tops, and I hate it when a meta game is all on combos maDe specifically to defeat another combo.

I think the only solution is to have a system of tiers, higher the number, more parts banned. Kind of like limited format in mfb.

So in tier one, all is allowed.

Tier 2, the deathscythers are banned

Tier three, wyvern, valkyrie, and neptune are banned along with parts in past tiers.

Tier four, Odin and Lost Longinus are banned along with parts in past tiers.

This would go on to make sure you can see the use of more parts other than getting more useless releases.

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Driger S also consistently defeats D2. Js.

Driger S also consistently defeats D2. Js.

Can anybody but Leo Burst back that though? And can it defeat anything else?

Can anybody but Leo Burst back that though? And can it defeat anything else?

Blader Zyeyo does a lot of combo testing against stock Driger and has done one with an attack combo Driger (Driger Gravity Xtreme) and it performs very well.

Granted not all the combos he's given by commentors make much sense but he has done some against top tier combos.


Edit: Here's a video of him using Driger S Gravity Xtreme against D2 Spread Revolve. The combo wins quite handily.

https://youtu.be/s1RV4MAJgDY

OK, but that also does not always translate to tournaments...

I'm gonna put my thoughts. Long story short I really think D2 should be banned for a while.

It's been proven that it's dominating the Meta Game and causing a bottleneck on combos. I say ban it until more God Series Beyblades are released and tested to find any counters or any parts that outclass it. Hopefully the new gimmicks can bring new life into the meta game.

I really don't feel like D2 has a clear counter yet. While I've seen videos where an attack combo with Driger can burst D2 stamina combos, as Kai-V says, videos don't always translate to tournaments. Dragoon has some success, but from what I've seen and experienced with my experiments with Dragoon, it only works if the D2 combo is using a heavy disk like Heavy or Gravity, if it uses a lighter disk like Spread it simply won't work.

Any reason why no used attack or L2 or Odin? Based on what i've seen from tourneys where I am L2 is definitely viable.

Well, if you take a look at my report you'll see that my block was actually filled with L2 combos at this particular tournament. However, D2GD just shut them all down completely. We've had some trouble with L2 Hold combos at recent tournaments against Revolve-based combos, but we've all started to learn how to counter them now (D2GD/DHD), so they aren't much of a threat to us. Plus personally, my Hold sucks ... lol. How have things gone at tournaments you've attended with Attack/L2/Odin? Specific match-ups you can remember would be great.

And Mitsu did use Attack in the finals, as well as in block play against me (God Valkyrie). I was able to mount a comeback against his gV with my Deathscyther; after going down 2-0 I adjusted my launch technique and won the last three rounds with only one click lost total. If you look at our other recent winning combinations as well you'll see several different Attack combos (Valkyrie, Minoboros, Lost Longinus, etc). This tournament did have a bit less winning Attack combos than usual, for whatever reason though. That being said, D2 and Deathscyther are consistent across all of our winning combos for as long as I can remember now too.

Odin is too risky to use right now because of how–relatively speaking–easy it is to burst/KO. There's no real reason to use it with Deathscyther (better Stamina) and D2 (same Stamina, better Defense) around. There's a reason why they're banning D2 in Japan and not Odin. Odin also gets completely demolished by L2, so using it at this tournament in my block especially would have been suicide haha. I don't think Odin is bad, but it's hard to justify using it right now from my perspective. If there's any great use for it in the current metagame that I'm missing, please let me know!

Edit: Here's a video of him using Driger S Gravity Xtreme against D2 Spread Revolve. The combo wins quite handily.

Yeah, it doesn't always translate to tournaments like Kai-V said (just like Deathscyther probably losing more often to Attack in testing than it does in tournaments). However, another thing with that specific video is the balance of the D2SR seemed pretty poor; you can tell by how much it was vibrating/moving around right at the beginning of the rounds. If you hard launch that combo (which it looked like he was doing), it should sit still in the centre if it has been properly balanced. It being unbalanced makes it easier to burst. That being said, a moderate/weak launch would probably have been a better idea in that match-up and given D2 a better chance. Banking helps too so you can hopefully distribute the force being applied to the Beyblade away from the sides which makes it harder for it to lose clicks, but not necessarily with Revolve because of how relatively easy it is to KO in comparison to Defense (which is far more popular in WBO events than Revolve with D2).

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I think we should outright ban D2 and Deathscyther period. If a whole metagame is based on trying to find counters do defeat a single part, then it really isnt much of a metagame.

I already know people will disagree (people already do) but honestly we should just get on with it before it becomes a further problem and more and more potentially good parts and combos are deemed useless because we make rash decisions because they can't counter an already overpowered part.

Sorry for being a mini mod, but I feel we should just ban dark deathscyther until the metagame allows it to be among equally powerful parts, or to just ban it period if it still proves too powerful.

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We are now conducting final discussion and voting among the WBO Committee, and should have a decision posted sometime next week. To be clear, the options are:

1. Ban Dark Deathscyther
2. Ban Dark Deathscyther AND Deathscyther
3. Do Nothing

So, if anybody has any additional thoughts on this, now is the time to post them! Thanks!

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I honestly would pick option 2, since they already have Hasbro counterparts which are more fair and balanced in the metagame. They are basically nerfed versions of their to my counterparts.

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I think we should outright ban D2 and Deathscyther period. If a whole metagame is based on trying to find counters do defeat a single part, then it really isnt much of a metagame.

Literally every generation has or has in the past had a metagame has like this to some extent though.... How does that kind of comment reflect on beyblade as a whole? It's not like the situation with D and D2 is anything new.

In response to Kei nothing that I haven't already really said but I think Deathscyther is a lot more balanced and defeatable than Dark Deathscyther and I don't think whether it's becoming scarce should really go into consideration.

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Literally every generation has or has in the past had a metagame has like this to some extent though.... How does that kind of comment reflect on beyblade as a whole? It's not like the situation with D and D2 is anything new.

At least you had a limited format, which there is a lack thereof in burst.

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Literally every generation has or has in the past had a metagame has like this to some extent though.... How does that kind of comment reflect on beyblade as a whole? It's not like the situation with D and D2 is anything new.

If a counter existed then D2 wouldn't be so prominent in the game. That's why I say ban it until the God Series releases something that can counter, match or outdo D2

If a counter existed then D2 wouldn't be so prominent in the game. That's why I say ban it until the God Series releases something that can counter, match or outdo D2

That's I would like.

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I think we should outright ban D2 and Deathscyther period. If a whole metagame is based on trying to find counters do defeat a single part, then it really isnt much of a metagame.

No offence, but I still can't get why we should ban Deathscyther in first place. I know it can OS almost everything and when it's new it's Valky hard to Burst. But atleast from my experience, seeing other's experience, winning combos and videos. We all agree D is, after all a stamina type and it can be KOed/Burst by alot of things + if you see testing and videos of time when we were banning Odin, you can see Odin too is able to OS it and both are quite equal. + We haven't tested many different combinations and parts that maybe good. No offence but most parts (mainly layers) are tested on same type of cookie cutter parts (like Stamina Layer on Revolve, Stamina disk on Revolve and Orbit + D/D2). There are alot of new types of combos yet to discover which might be good. Let's say TT Unicorn, Yeilding Driver (on things like Chaos), P2 and alot of parts.

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Gotta love how Lui ruined Shu's life for like the 3rd time now.

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I vote option one and try that out first. if Deathscyther does propose a problem after that we could always ban that too. D2 is more of an issue rn than anything else

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I vote option one and try that out first. if Deathscyther does propose a problem after that we could always ban that too. D2 is more of an issue rn than anything else

I agree, D2 is the source of this skewed meta. D2 is a layer that has few and unconsistent counters, I'm pretty sure people are sick of it showing up on every single Winning Combination. If D2 is banned I feel Attack types could have more of a chance and thus making the meta more interesting overall.

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95% of the time I spend on this site is on mobile

I feel we ban both and we just unban D a little later just to make sure. 

I also think we should retest all outclassed parts against the new top tier combos to see if there were parts we missed because of the skewed meta.

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I'm mostly for option 1, since D2 is clearly a problem and Deathscyther's situation is much less clear. I'd like to see Deathscyther gone too, but more because I want to be rid of one of the fastest-wearing yet highly competitive parts in the game (Looking at you too, Valkyrie). But now is not the time or place for an extended rant on Burst's part wear situation, not while D2 is clearly the greater problem. Deathscyther is reasonably balanced given its vulnerability to Attack, but D2 proves to be much more of a problem thanks to the lack of consistent counters or other competitive options.

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Do YOU think that Driger S should be banned?

Do YOU think that Driger S should be banned?

Why should it it's hardly present at tournamnets

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I have to cut this kinda short just due to procrastination issues, but despite not necessarily being in my best interests, I'll have to vote for option 1. It seems like D2 presents enough of an issue to the community that it should be banned.

Yeah, this is the big thing for me: the inconsistency and situational nature of D2 counters, and the availability and quick-wearing nature of Deathscyther. Like I mentioned above, we already present a large enough barrier to the community by basically requiring importing Japanese releases to be successful, so if we can lower that barrier a little bit by banning a part (Deathscyther) which is the best Stamina Layer in the game (this is a bigger issue than if it were the post powerful Attack or Defense type in the game because Stamina is the easiest type to use) and wears quickly, it's a win for everybody involved:

1. New players have a better opportunity to compete with anybody in a Stamina match-up (saying they can just use Attack to counter Deathscyther isn't really valid; I'd rather craft a metagame where all players have a relatively equal opportunity to compete at a high level in any way which they desire. I don't want them to feel forced into using a particular type to overcome an issue like the one which exists with Deathscyther).

In the hands of a good player, a mint Deathscyther is an incredibly formidable opponent. It can outspin anything and depending on the match-up and launching skill of the users involved, can defeat many Attack combinations without much trouble too. Even though there is absolutely counters (which are more or less effective not only on the players involved, but also depending on the condition of the Deathscyther), I don't think it's quite as bad defensively as some of you have made it out to be.

In fact, I took the time to review my battle data and since around December 2015 when I started recording every single battle I play in Toronto at our official WBO events, I discovered that in my battles where Deathscyther was used, Deathscyther won 67% of the time (31/46 times) against offensive opponents (whether I was using Deathscyther or my opponent was) in regular matches (this does not include rounds played in Deck Format Finals). This is massively telling in my opinion. Worth noting that most of these match-ups were against highly competitive Attack types like Valkyrie or Valtryek. I noticed that in a lot of cases when Valkyrie won, it was 3-2 ... so the irrefutable fact of the matter is that Deathscyther is not as weak against all forms of Attack as people might think.

I guess your experience with Deathscyther is much different than mine - I also went through all of my recorded matches (granted I've played a lot less of them than you have, but most of them have been against equally skilled opponents) and Deathscyther was only able to defeat an offensive opponent 25% of the time. These matchups were also against competitive Attackers like Valkyrie or V2, and 50% of the time Deathscyther got cooked 0-3.

I'd also like to mention that yes, Stamina is the easiest type to use and that new players won't be able to compete with Deathscyther. What makes Deathscyther different is that players don't need to be forced into using Attack to defeat it - factually speaking, it's a lot riskier to use than other historically 'safe' Stamina combos because it's easy to walk into some random matchup against almost any combo with an aggressive Layer and a stationary Driver and then lose by bursting. Remember, this is the reason Odin was banned - it had similar Stamina to Deathscyther while also being a lot more difficult to burst, and that's what made it a safer combo. Since KO Attack requires a lot more skill to use effectively than Burst Attack, it's much safer to run a Burst Defense/Stamina build than a KO Defense/Stamina one.

Driger S also consistently defeats D2. Js.

Can anybody but Leo Burst back that though? And can it defeat anything else?

I personally haven't had success with Driger as an Attack Type (the whole issue of non-Valkyrie Attack Layers being inconsistent for different people across the board is also really annoying), but if Mrstubbs88 and Leo Burst can beat D2 with it they can beat any other Layer that is easier to burst than D2 with it as well (including Deathscyther).

EDIT: added the quoted post. #hashtagBringBackNestedQuote2K17

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I guess your experience with Deathscyther is much different than mine - I also went through all of my recorded matches (granted I've played a lot less of them than you have, but most of them have been against equally skilled opponents) and Deathscyther was only able to defeat an offensive opponent 25% of the time. These matchups were also against competitive Attackers like Valkyrie or V2, and 50% of the time Deathscyther got cooked 0-3.

I'd also like to mention that yes, Stamina is the easiest type to use and that new players won't be able to compete with Deathscyther. What makes Deathscyther different is that players don't need to be forced into using Attack to defeat it - factually speaking, it's a lot riskier to use than other historically 'safe' Stamina combos because it's easy to walk into some random matchup against almost any combo with an aggressive Layer and a stationary Driver and then lose by bursting. Remember, this is the reason Odin was banned - it had similar Stamina to Deathscyther while also being a lot more difficult to burst, and that's what made it a safer combo. Since KO Attack requires a lot more skill to use effectively than Burst Attack, it's much safer to run a Burst Defense/Stamina build than a KO Defense/Stamina one.

Interesting! I would put more value in my statistics simply because the data set is larger which means players have had more experience playing with Deathscyther in a competitive environment, but I do acknowledge that my number of 67% certainly can be skewed downwards depending on the situation (players, combos used, etc). We're dealing with a very broad statistic here, so it's to be expected. That said, 25% seems especially low based on my experience (just as 67% probabmy seems especially high based on yours). Thanks for sharing, though; that's quite valuable to know and really frames our discussions really well in terms of understanding where each person is coming from.

Stationary Attack is still Attack, though. And as I mentioned, it's possible to 3-0 something like VHR with DHR if you know how to launch properly. Might be harder to do against something like VKD (assuming the player has a strong launch and can make Defense move), but my point is that the answer isn't simply "launch your stationary attack type and auto-win against Deathscyther" (although the ease of accomplishing this is clearly different from each of our perspectives if the data we presented is to be believed haha). As such, being able to use Stationary Attack is also reliant upon the user being skilled/strong enough to launch it properly and try to counter any strategies an experienced Deathscyther player may employ. Hard to expect that from new players who don't have Deathscyther and have to use this type of combination to defeat it.

The funny thing is that with the new parts that have been released since Odin was banned originally, Odin is now easier to burst or KO than Deathscyther in my opinion. It's not as bad as D2–clearly–but without even considering the wear/availability issues (which are the crux of the discussion on Deathscyther for me personally), it's good enough to sit in a position similar to Odin was.

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