.....

The fact that this is the case in WBBA rules also makes me wonder whether we should adopt the same ruling for the WBO more explicitly. Right now it says that:

A Beyblade is knocked-out when it exits the play area. Beyblades stuck on an element of a stadium are still considered in-play.

"play area" is actually a little bit vague.

Anyways, I've been so busy that I haven't been able to try and propel this conversation forward internally to make a decision regarding the WBO's rules, but will try to do so soon ...

I think further defining the play area will be great.  This also brings me think about wall bounce rule again. Is there an imaginary line at the wall that tells you this is out vs in?  Does it work more like tennis or basketball with this line if there is one?

Some photos to show what I am trying to get at:




A short video showing basically the same thing but perhaps easier to see:
https://youtu.be/W-25tnnSyDI

And Kei did this happen?  

so long as it doesn't actually touch the ground  if it just like only hits the wall and comes back in i think it should be fine

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Well, I changed my mind based on judging convenience and sustainability rather than any of the points for it you raised. None of your arguments for it are convincing.

I get that you're only focused in the here and now and refuse to understand the historical reasons for this rule, but keep in mind the rule might need to be reimplemented later on if defense and stam layers completely overpower and overwhelm ko attack again.

A Beyblade is knocked-out when it exits the play area. Beyblades stuck on an element of a stadium are still considered in-play.

Beyblades that bounce back into the stadium after exiting the play area are still considered knocked-out

.....

The fact that this is the case in WBBA rules also makes me wonder whether we should adopt the same ruling for the WBO more explicitly. Right now it says that:


"play area" is actually a little bit vague.

Anyways, I've been so busy that I haven't been able to try and propel this conversation forward internally to make a decision regarding the WBO's rules, but will try to do so soon ...

I think further defining the play area will be great.  This also brings me think about wall bounce rule again. Is there an imaginary line at the wall that tells you this is out vs in?  Does it work more like tennis or basketball with this line if there is one?

A Beyblade is knocked-out when it exits the play area. Beyblades stuck on an element of a stadium are still considered in-play.
if it bounces back it technically doesn't  exit the play area if it doesn't touch the ground outside of it should still be considered  in play

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i am a blader who really wants to blade competitively 

so long as it doesn't actually touch the ground  if it just like only hits the wall and comes back in i think it should be fine

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Well, I changed my mind based on judging convenience and sustainability rather than any of the points for it you raised. None of your arguments for it are convincing.

I get that you're only focused in the here and now and refuse to understand the historical reasons for this rule, but keep in mind the rule might need to be reimplemented later on if defense and stam layers completely overpower and overwhelm ko attack again.

A Beyblade is knocked-out when it exits the play area. Beyblades stuck on an element of a stadium are still considered in-play.

Beyblades that bounce back into the stadium after exiting the play area are still considered knocked-out

I think further defining the play area will be great.  This also brings me think about wall bounce rule again. Is there an imaginary line at the wall that tells you this is out vs in?  Does it work more like tennis or basketball with this line if there is one?

A Beyblade is knocked-out when it exits the play area. Beyblades stuck on an element of a stadium are still considered in-play.
if it bounces back it technically doesn't  exit the play area if it doesn't touch the ground outside of it should still be considered  in play

Shush! Don't at me on a month old post in a thread I have no interest in debating with people in. If you aren't going to check the date a post was made, Don't Post. And if you can't clear up the text formatting with the "Remove Formatting" button in the post editor, Don't Post.

I'm fine with the rules going either way, but don't quote or at me on this again, I'm really not interested in this discussion.

And if you're going to try to quote the rules to prove your point, don't cherry-pick only the parts you like, paste the full thing. Here's the full ruling on Knock-outs:
Knocked-Out
"A Beyblade is knocked-out when it exits the play area. Beyblades stuck on an element of a stadium are still considered in-play.

Beyblades that bounce back into the stadium after exiting the play area are still considered knocked-out. However, if a Beyblade exits the play area and bounces back in before touching the opposing Beyblade in any fashion, the round will continue."

The play area is not well defined within the existing rules (it should be, but that'll be another paragraph of text most bladers never bother to read). But the play area doesn't include the wall, the wall counts as an element of the stadium. Hitting the wall of the stadium doesn't count as being stuck on the wall of the stadium. If it bounced back in, it definitely left the play area, as the rules stand currently.

---

-----
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It was also interesting to me that in one round I was KOed but got stuck between the back wall and the edge of the stadium floor ... so I didn't touch the ground and it was considered a OS instead! In 5G it might actually be beneficial to try and use bigger Layers like Imperial to increase the chances of this happening for you.

The fact that this is the case in WBBA rules also makes me wonder whether we should adopt the same ruling for the WBO more explicitly. Right now it says that:

A Beyblade is knocked-out when it exits the play area. Beyblades stuck on an element of a stadium are still considered in-play.

"play area" is actually a little bit vague.

Anyways, I've been so busy that I haven't been able to try and propel this conversation forward internally to make a decision regarding the WBO's rules, but will try to do so soon ...

I meant to respond to this earlier but forgot. This is a bit of a mixed bag when it comes to the WBBA rules as it seems odd an outspin can occur while the bey is not on the stadium floor. Although it's not official, I've called a beyblade in that position, in "danger" and it works well for my groups play. The idea is that a beyblade in "danger" is when it gets hit into a pocket but doesn't leave for an extended amount of time. Being in "danger" means you can't win via outspin, but you're not eliminated yet.

If your opponent knocks you into a state of danger and then stops spinning without your bey returning to the arena, they win. If they were to stop spinning but then your bey jumps out of the pocket, you would instead receive the victory as you recovered from danger, still spinning. If you were knocked into a state of danger but then your opponent goes flying out of the ring a few seconds later, it would count as a KO in favor of the one who hit the other out first should neither of them recover. If you're in a state of danger and burst against the wall from continuous spinning, it would be considered a knockout. If you're in a state of danger and the opponent who is still on the stadium floor bursts, it's considered a burst priority finish.

Like I said, this isn't official, but a lot of thought and discussion has been put into this between myself and my group of friends. These rules have worked out excellent for us and have made the game interesting, exciting, and without a doubt fair for both players involved.

Edit - Wrote them down severely wrong, my mind just mixed up the knockout system.

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I'm not a miracle, I'm a heaven-sent instrument.

It is fine that you play in that way with your friends but in you attempt to make things more "fair" you makd a more complex situation.

The pocket is out of bounds. If a beyblade is hit into the pocket or flings itself into the pocket after first contact it is considered a knockout and points are awarded as such.
Think of it as lIke soccer. A goal is a goal. If the ball enters the goal then it is a goal. If a beyblade enters the pocket then it is a knockout regardless of if it bounces out or not.

That is the simplest way to describe it.

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Highly Observant Hasbro Blader.

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The creators of Soccer didn't intend for the ball to leave the goal area and still be considered active. That's an important factor. The current rules of intended play are backwards.

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I'm not a miracle, I'm a heaven-sent instrument.

The creators of Soccer didn't intend for the ball to leave the goal area and still be considered active. That's an important factor. The current rules of intended play are backwards.

Wait what? When the beyblade hits the stadium pocket, it's a KO. When a soccer ball passes the goal line, it's a goal. WBBA rules allow the "soccer ball" to still be in play if it bounces out of the goal line. WBO doesn't.

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My Favorite Anime of all Time in no particular order: 
1, Re: ZERO -Starting Life in Another World- (Wishing for Season 2)
2, My Teenage Romantic Comedy SNAFU (Delighted for Season 3)
3, Sword Art Online and Sword Art Online: Alicization (Skip season 2 or feel my wrath)
4, Charlotte (Charlotte had way more potential for a 2nd Season, but it didn't happen. R.I.P Jun Maeda)
5, Your lie in April (Clannad sadness V.S. Your lie in April sadness...who wins?)
6, Akame Ga Kill (Bad@ss Assassins, what more could I ask for?)
7, Naruto Shippuden (Idk why I have Naruto here, but whatever. It's Nostalgic that's for sure.)
8, Clannad and Clannad After Story (Be prepared to have a handkerchief or napkin next to you just in case...you cri :( )
9, Death Note (This is one those anime series that didn't finish well story wise, but still a solid series overall.)
10, Food Wars! (I feel like a weeb for liking Shokugeki no Soma. Or maybe the food just looks too good everytime I watch an episode.)
11, The Pet Girl of Sakurasou (Oh boy, this one is just awesome. You're just going to have to see this one for yourself.
12, Golden Time (I didn't like the way amnesia was portrayed in this, but that doesn't matter haha. One of the best Romance anime of all time. That's unless if you prefer Toradora.)
13, The Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime (If you're into OP mc's, then this one is for you.)
14, Rascal Does Not Dream of Bunny Girl Senpai (Terrible title lmao. Great romcom anime.)
15, Tokyo Ghoul (One of my favorite looking anime of all time.)

Exactly. Play in Soccer was intended for the ball to go into the goal zone and that be the point. In beyblade, play was intended to go into the goal zone with the ability to return to play if it can. The WBO rules have intended play backwards.

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I'm not a miracle, I'm a heaven-sent instrument.

So recently I have started a new Series called Beyblade Science on my Channel and the topic of the one I did yesterday was specifically for this rule change proposal. It was a bit difficult to do this as I was tired, waiting on the news for Lui, Free, and Sisco, it was my first Beyblade Science video so I could've messed up a bit, and it was a bit difficult to keep track of the beys when they bounced back but I managed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHyJw5bTAG0

If there is anything you think I need to change or redo let me know and I'll do a 2nd test and post the results here.

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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzL8dVb...subscriber

It was also interesting to me that in one round I was KOed but got stuck between the back wall and the edge of the stadium floor ... so I didn't touch the ground and it was considered a OS instead! In 5G it might actually be beneficial to try and use bigger Layers like Imperial to increase the chances of this happening for you.

The fact that this is the case in WBBA rules also makes me wonder whether we should adopt the same ruling for the WBO more explicitly. Right now it says that:


"play area" is actually a little bit vague.

Anyways, I've been so busy that I haven't been able to try and propel this conversation forward internally to make a decision regarding the WBO's rules, but will try to do so soon ...

I meant to respond to this earlier but forgot. This is a bit of a mixed bag when it comes to the WBBA rules as it seems odd an outspin can occur while the bey is not on the stadium floor. Although it's not official, I've called a beyblade in that position, in "danger" and it works well for my groups play. The idea is that a beyblade in "danger" is when it gets hit into a pocket but doesn't leave for an extended amount of time. Being in "danger" means you can't win via outspin, but you're not eliminated yet.

If your opponent knocks you into a state of danger and then stops spinning without your bey returning to the arena, they win. If they were to stop spinning but then your bey jumps out of the pocket, you would instead receive the victory as you recovered from danger, still spinning. If you were knocked into a state of danger but then your opponent goes flying out of the ring a few seconds later, it would count as a KO in favor of the one who hit the other out first should neither of them recover. If you're in a state of danger and burst against the wall from continuous spinning, it would be considered a knockout. If you're in a state of danger and the opponent who is still on the stadium floor bursts, it's considered a burst priority finish.

Like I said, this isn't official, but a lot of thought and discussion has been put into this between myself and my group of friends. These rules have worked out excellent for us and have made the game interesting, exciting, and without a doubt fair for both players involved.

Edit - Wrote them down severely wrong, my mind just mixed up the knockout system.

i think thats a perfect rule

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i am a blader who really wants to blade competitively 

#NeverForget.. That this game is being played incorrectly in WBO tournaments. I know it seems odd since there aren't going to be gatherings for a while, but why return to them with the flawed rules in a meta that's starting to lean really into attack? Attack was already doing well but the escalation is only rising.

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I'm not a miracle, I'm a heaven-sent instrument.

#NeverForget.. That this game is being played incorrectly in WBO tournaments. I know it seems odd since there aren't going to be gatherings for a while, but why return to them with the flawed rules in a meta that's starting to lean really into attack? Attack was already doing well but the escalation is only rising.

I wouldn't say the meta favors attack at all. Rather, the meta favors NOT Defense. An overview of the meta would clearly show this. We see 3 stamina layers (Perfect Phoenix, Lord, Master), 2 attack layers (Judgement, Zwei), 0 defense layers, and 1 balance layer (Imperial, which is an Attack-Stamina hybrid). (This is based on how each layer is used.) We have drivers that defensive layers could use to repel attack types easily (worn Unite', worn Merge', and Keep'), but those drivers aren't viable, not because of attack, but because of stamina creep. They automatically lose in same spin and in opposite spin. If took away Judgement, attack would suck and we'd be back in rP-hS-aH meta. I blame the insane LAD creep (Bearing, Xtend+) and Lord (which just turbo enables Bearing) for the necessity of Judgement's existence in the meta.

And if we look to future releases... Double Chassis reduce bursting, but so far we only see that in use for attack with 1A and 2A. Though, it might be possible in the future to have a Double Chassis for defense types where they can use Orbit to outspin Xt+ players (once again, the same spin matchup chart does not include Orbit for some reason and I keep asking why...), but have poor LAD on the Double Chassis, and have enough burst resistance to compete with attack. Of course, this kind of Double Chassis would be good for attack too... Also Wheel is more attack and stamina creep. Universe driver might have great LAD, but also seems like it will have decent KO resist, but not as good same spin as Atomic. Brave & 2A seems to be an upgrade to Judgement.

Also stationary attack is dead, and that's to the fault left spin non-attack layers, which is stamina.

Enough of my rambling, its not an attack meta. It's a NOT defense meta. More of a stamina one if any. Even if it was an attack meta, at least attack takes skill which can be exploited with strategic launches to dodge or soft launches to reduce burst risk.

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And back to the main topic of making KOs work like the WBBA rules with the wall rule. I'm not so sure. Back in December we saw a nerf to Knockouts being reduced to 1 point in Burst Standard.

But I do think the rules aren't worded well.

A Beyblade is knocked-out when it exits the play area. Beyblades stuck on an element of a stadium are still considered in-play.

Beyblades that bounce back into the stadium after exiting the play area are still considered knocked-out. However, if a Beyblade exits the play area and bounces back in before touching the opposing Beyblade in any fashion, the round will continue.

What's vague is that hitting the wall of a pocket is an element of the stadium, where the bey is kind of stuck on it, even for a moment. "Play Area" isn't defined in the rules either. I think "Play Area" could be defined as "Non-pocket portions of the stadium" as an improvement.

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Give us Assault' re-release, Iron', and Charge'. Give a non-limited re-release of Cho-Z Achilles.
Legend Spriggan on tall attack drivers for Burst Limited is fun.
Against layer powercreep in Burst Limited.

So again, the knockouts going to 1 point was long overdue. Judgment made the game straight up feel bad for the first few tournaments I attended. This also does nothing, not a single thing, to address early stages of play, which is where a majority of players play.

You know what feels straight up stupid for a game about nothing except spinning tops? Having to say a match is over while two tops are still aggressively spinning on the arena, then having to spend 1-3 minutes looking at a camera to see who was got out. Tournaments already go on for a while, to artificially inflate the time further with the need to review replay after replay is insane. I prefer an honest game, not a game that's over in 3 seconds followed by a 2 minute review of footage because both beys went flying in different directions. Ludicrous how often this happens.

It actually comes off feeling as if people don't like watching tops spin, instead being only hyper focused on the idea of scoring points, to the extent of actively hurting the state of game play.

---

I'm not a miracle, I'm a heaven-sent instrument.

So again, the knockouts going to 1 point was long overdue. Judgment made the game straight up feel bad for the first few tournaments I attended. This also does nothing, not a single thing, to address early stages of play, which is where a majority of players play.

You know what feels straight up stupid for a game about nothing except spinning tops? Having to say a match is over while two tops are still aggressively spinning on the arena, then having to spend 1-3 minutes looking at a camera to see who was got out. Tournaments already go on for a while, to artificially inflate the time further with the need to review replay after replay is insane. I prefer an honest game, not a game that's over in 3 seconds followed by a 2 minute review of footage because both beys went flying in different directions. Ludicrous how often this happens.

It actually comes off feeling as if people don't like watching tops spin, instead being only hyper focused on the idea of scoring points, to the extent of actively hurting the state of game play.

Not really sure if I did understand your sentiments, but that would only be applicable if you're playing casual. It's not that people don't want to see tops spin, but if that is what is already expected to happen (spinning tops), then people in a competitive environment, namely "tournaments", will more or less focus on the outcome/points instead of the whole process of tops battling each other.

That's what I think, not trying to be rude or what.

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Ore wa tsuyoi da

IG: @kinghadoukenbeypla
(I try to post daily for things like Beyblade and Gunpla)

Actually, the only time cameras are brought into play to adjudicate is tournament play. I've never seen casual play where people stop a match and then examine footage in hopes that the opponent hit a back wall 1 frame before they did. It makes the community and its leaders look bad that they think this standard of judging a match is acceptable in tournament settings.

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I'm not a miracle, I'm a heaven-sent instrument.

Of course, because no sport or tournament event ever relies on checking footage. Referees never do that.

Are you seriously back on this gripe again? Very few people seem to get quite as annoyed by the wall bounce rule as you do. I can't guess what they're thinking as far as wall bounce changes go, I honestly don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if you've been annoying enough that they've stopped listening to anything you have to say.

The community and the committee aren't the ones who look bad here.

---

-----
Hey, parents! Here are all the answers to any questions about WBO Tournaments you might have! Thread-Guide-Hey-Parents-Answers-to-your-WBO-Tournament-questions

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I'll be on it until they change it. I guess once we have Beyblade as a college sport with fans paying to attend games, then I'll accept that games need finalized decisions based on rulings made through recording.

As for looking bad, if they adamantly support a poor rule set, then they do.


Edit - Also, I'm annoying now? I thought personal attacks weren't allowed. I don't pester anyone in private messages, nor have I berated them in person when given the opportunity. I'm posting on a single thread hoping that people will understand the game is being played in a fundamentally wrong way.

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I'm not a miracle, I'm a heaven-sent instrument.

I'm not going to touch the competetive aspect of it, since I'm obviously not qualified for that, but I would like to support Mr. Mr. Palazzo's point simply because of one reason - WBO should try as much as they can to avoid having different rules than the Wbba. The Wbba is an official organization that isn't going to change the rules because of us, and having unnecesary rule differences is.. really what's the point?

The thing is that TT clearly knows what they're doing, they've banned parts many times before and are clearly capable of adjusting the meta with the power of new releases, something the WBO doesn't have. Completely changing our rules to match the Japanese ones might be too radical, but there are a few places that definitely need to be reconsidered. Imho.

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I'm not going to touch the competetive aspect of it, since I'm obviously not qualified for that, but I would like to support Mr. Mr. Palazzo's point simply because of one reason - WBO should try as much as they can to avoid having different rules than the Wbba. The Wbba is an official organization that isn't going to change the rules because of us, and having unnecesary rule differences is.. really what's the point?

The thing  is that TT clearly knows what they're doing, they've banned parts many times before and are clearly capable of adjusting the meta with the power of new releases, something the WBO doesn't have. Completely changing our rules to match the Japanese ones might be too radical, but there are a few places that definitely need to be reconsidered. Imho.

but the rule differences aren't "unnecessary". They have an actual impact on how the game's meta is played.

To say TT knows what they're doing... is extremely overestimating how well the company that released Xtend+ and made Xtreme' a rare release balances their game. In addition, the WBO could ban parts to balance the meta, but they're not good at that either.

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Give us Assault' re-release, Iron', and Charge'. Give a non-limited re-release of Cho-Z Achilles.
Legend Spriggan on tall attack drivers for Burst Limited is fun.
Against layer powercreep in Burst Limited.

but the rule differences aren't "unnecessary". They have an actual impact on how the game's meta is played.

To say TT knows what they're doing... is extremely overestimating how well the company that released Xtend+ and made Xtreme' a rare release balances their game. In addition, the WBO could ban parts to balance the meta, but they're not good at that either.

I see so TT/WBBA and WBO don’t really know what they are doing.  Who should we turn to?

Personally, I think nothing should be changed and the knockout rules are fine as it is. Although wouldn’t really mind if they are tweaked.

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Champion! Javari Carr.

but the rule differences aren't "unnecessary". They have an actual impact on how the game's meta is played.

To say TT knows what they're doing... is extremely overestimating how well the company that released Xtend+ and made Xtreme' a rare release balances their game. In addition, the WBO could ban parts to balance the meta, but they're not good at that either.

I see so TT/WBBA and WBO don’t really know what they are doing.  Who should we turn to?

Well we don't have control over the WBBA (TT), but we do over the WBO. I'd say we improve the WBO.

Now, I don't think any parts need to be banned right now (only because Sparking is now changing the meta, but otherwise I would like to have seen a meta with Xtend+, Bearing, Lord, and Judgement banned. Think that would be interesting).

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Give us Assault' re-release, Iron', and Charge'. Give a non-limited re-release of Cho-Z Achilles.
Legend Spriggan on tall attack drivers for Burst Limited is fun.
Against layer powercreep in Burst Limited.

Well we don't have control over the WBBA (TT), but we do over the WBO. I'd say we improve the WBO.

Now, I don't think any parts need to be banned right now (only because Sparking is now changing the meta, but otherwise I would like to have seen a meta with Xtend+, Bearing, Lord, and Judgement banned. Think that would be interesting).

Specifically, what type of improvements should the WBO make?

You said we can’t controll TT and I agree.  So the only thing WBO can control are WBO rules and WBO bans I think?  Or maybe there is something that I missed.  What do you think we should do now?  You just said you don’t think anything needs to be banned right now.  So that leaves rule change?  What improvements can the WBO make?

Well we don't have control over the WBBA (TT), but we do over the WBO. I'd say we improve the WBO.

Now, I don't think any parts need to be banned right now (only because Sparking is now changing the meta, but otherwise I would like to have seen a meta with Xtend+, Bearing, Lord, and Judgement banned. Think that would be interesting).

Specifically, what type of improvements should the WBO make?

You said we can’t controll TT and I agree.  So the only thing WBO can control are WBO rules and WBO bans I think?  Or maybe there is something that I missed.  What do you think we should do now?  You just said you don’t think anything needs to be banned right now.  So that leaves rule change?  What improvements can the WBO make?

I agree with this, we would be glad to hear possible adjustments to the wbo rules!

I'm just going to address the wall bounce ruling "real quick". (This took more than 40 minutes to write xD)

Spoiler (Click to View)

Of course, changing the ruling would affect battles in several ways. For example, a very strong Attack combo would have to start worrying about hitting the opponent into the pocket too hard, increasing the possibility that it will lose by Spin Finish. On the flip side, it could lead to an increased chance of a Burst Finish against the combo that bounced back in. Another complication would be that the Bey might turn to a vertical position or even upside down, so would that still count as the Bey spinning? Would it count as a KO or a Spin Finish? Also, is there anything in the rules that stops a player from performing a "Dread Vertical?" That would certainly help with this situation. Back to the wall bounce rules, I actually had an experience in one of the Final Stage matches of "Knock 'Em Dread" against LazerBeamz where the current wall bounce ruling made the battle kind of weird. I'm talking specifically about when he picked Judgement Ashura 0 Bump Ωcta (I don't recall the Weight, but probably Metsu) and I swapped over to Zwei Longinus 0 Wall Hold' Zan (weird combo, I know). A few of the rounds went by in the blink of an eye because the two combos sent each other straight into either the pockets or the walls. I don't know how the judge (I think it was Vinny) managed to make the calls so easily, since I blinked instinctively after pretty much every attack. I ended up winning in one of the most fast-paced matches I've ever seen, so I'm not complaining, but it definitely didn't seem like an easy match to judge in any stretch of the imagination, especially without recording. At the end of the day, if a Bey still counts as in play after bouncing back into the play area, a lot of interactions would change for better or for worse, but it's easy to see why the decision is hard to make. Should the difficulty of judging be a bigger factor in the decision than the presence of Attack Beys? Should the change be made soon because Defensive options are scarce or should it wait for a bit in order to see if it would matter in the future of the metagame? An interesting thing that might happen as a result of applying this rule is a surge of slightly gentler Attack combos in order to minimize the chances of a wall-bounce.