Consideration for rules update - Knockouts

this rule change so much better 2-4 second knockouts help me make comeback in battle
(Jan. 06, 2020  4:50 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: Just bringing this back to the front. I play too much beyblade in my spare time to be happy with the current rule set still in use during tournament play.

Under WBBA regulation, an Over Finish is defined as "a bey coming to contact with the floor outside (other than) the stadium". So hitting the wall pocket without touching the floor and flying back in does not count as a KO. (Of course it would still boil down to judge ruling at the end of the day.) But, I believe this is a much better way to play beyblade burst.

https://beyblade.takaratomy.co.jp/manual/regulation.pdf
so that call ring out finish because of bey more melt with an ability like to bouncing off that wall with old-gen they go too floor and that why call ring out finish
Here is a link to a video of a match that was judged poorly by me.  The very first point I called a wall bounce against Yami, but now I believe I made the wrong call.   This is after rewatching the footage at 0.25X speed 7-8 times.  I am now pretty sure I made the wrong call.  The Judgement combo hit both side walls of the pocket without, to my eye, ever really even entering the pocket space.   I made that  call at the time because I was convinced it was bouncing between the pocket side walls over an area I would consider outside of the stadium.  I was wrong.  This is just very hard to do correctly in my opinion.   I was lucky because Yami won in spite of my poor call, but this was not fair to him.  To make matters worse, after Judgement bounced back in it KOed its opponent. 

https://youtu.be/WGjM6eOzvec
(Jan. 07, 2020  12:00 AM)Shindog Wrote: Here is a link to a video of a match that was judged poorly by me.  The very first point I called a wall bounce against Yami, but now I believe I made the wrong call.   This is after rewatching the footage at 0.25X speed 7-8 times.  I am now pretty sure I made the wrong call.  The Judgement combo hit both side walls of the pocket without, to my eye, ever really even entering the pocket space.   I made that  call at the time because I was convinced it was bouncing between the pocket side walls over an area I would consider outside of the stadium.  I was wrong.  This is just very hard to do correctly in my opinion.   I was lucky because Yami won in spite of my poor call, but this was not fair to him.  

https://youtu.be/WGjM6eOzvec

Now that you mentioned that I watched the footage at the same speed and it looks like you did. I plan on conducting some test without the rule either today or tomorrow just like SupaDav03 has before and may use similar combos from the video to have a complete results.
I think people are arguing on this kind of concern probably because there isn't a clear ruling regarding which part of the wall the Bey hits upon Bey-to-Bey contact and if its Takara Tomy or Hasbro Stadium being referred to.

It should be clarified as to what consists as a 'Knockout".

For me, it should it be when it hits any of the three pockets' walls (in Takara Tomy Standard Burst Stadiums) upon Bey-to-Bey contact.

My logic is considering the Original Plastic gen stadiums where the designs are normally 3 open slots and 3 walls surrounding the circumference of the stadium. I think even MFB had those stadium designs (prior to having those gimmicky stadiums) including a larger and taller cardboard/plastic walls to prevent Beys from being KO'd too far from the stadium. If you think about it, Burst stadiums only had those "pockets" as part of the design to lessen flying parts during Bursts, and those said pockets are incorporated into the "covered" design of the Burst Standard Stadium. So in that sense, technically, once a Burst Bey hits the wall pocket, it should already count as KO since if it didn't have a cover, it should already have been out of the stadium in the first place.

If on Hasbro, I have no comment since I don't really own a Hasbro stadium for me to be able to distinguish KO for that stadium design.

Considering the new 5G rules of Japanese tournaments, I think it is much more unfair to have KO equate Bursts in terms of points, though I understand that the more recent releases tend to only Burst on bad combos (and no tournament Blader in his/her right mind would compete with sub-par combos)
This has been discussed within this thread already, the stadium designs of the past matter not. Beyblade has changed over time and the way the stadium functions has clearly changed as well. The creators of the game intend for beys to bounce off of the walls, hence why it's not considered a knockout in WBBA events if you strike the back wall of a pocket. The design of the stadium encourages bursts more than knockouts, as beys that repeatedly bounce back and forth around the walls are more likely to burst. Although bursting is less common than it used to be, the design of the stadium affords us opportunity to witness a greater victory due to the inability to be knocked out with ease.

---------------

I agree that 5G rules should be Outspin - 1 point, Knockout - 1 point, Burst - 2 points. Just like how deck format changed for the better, 5G ends too quickly for how much mental energy you have to expend when formulating a strategy against your opponents 5 beyblades. There is a dire lack of counter play and it ends up feeling random and unsatisfying when it ends in 2 rounds, which is fairly common. That's a discussion for elsewhere though.
Another kind of wall bounce problem can seen at 0:32 mark.  

https://youtu.be/PX6z3hPsXfE
(Jan. 13, 2020  7:13 AM)Shindog Wrote: Another kind of wall bounce problem can seen at 0:32 mark.  

https://youtu.be/PX6z3hPsXfE

That one wasn't even close to Ko.
(Jan. 12, 2020  5:25 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: This has been discussed within this thread already, the stadium designs of the past matter not. Beyblade has changed over time and the way the stadium functions has clearly changed as well. The creators of the game intend for beys to bounce off of the walls, hence why it's not considered a knockout in WBBA events if you strike the back wall of a pocket. The design of the stadium encourages bursts more than knockouts, as beys that repeatedly bounce back and forth around the walls are more likely to burst. Although bursting is less common than it used to be, the design of the stadium affords us opportunity to witness a greater victory due to the inability to be knocked out with ease.

---------------

I agree that 5G rules should be Outspin - 1 point, Knockout - 1 point, Burst - 2 points. Just like how deck format changed for the better, 5G ends too quickly for how much mental energy you have to expend when formulating a strategy against your opponents 5 beyblades. There is a dire lack of counter play and it ends up feeling random and unsatisfying when it ends in 2 rounds, which is fairly common. That's a discussion for elsewhere though.

There's no way to know what "the creators of the game" intended.

I'm going to do some testing tomorrow, which should help settle the debate once and for all.
The creators of Beyblade Burst, Takara TOMY, have their own league, the WBBA. The WBBA plays this game with wall bounces not equating to a loss. Their intention is clear.

The only way I play is with this rule eliminated. As I've said before, all this testing is, is a lack of regular play. The game offers such better gameplay when played out in its entirety, extremely clear if you're playing constantly.
(Jan. 13, 2020  1:45 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: The creators of Beyblade Burst, Takara TOMY, have their own league, the WBBA. The WBBA plays this game with wall bounces not equating to a loss. Their intention is clear.

The only way I play is with this rule eliminated. As I've said before, all this testing is, is a lack of regular play. The game offers such better gameplay when played out in its entirety, extremely clear if you're playing constantly.

The rule is in place so a lucky bounce wouldn't discredit a well-earned knockout by an attack-type and also allows for said attack types to be made to hit as hard as possible for a ko. If bounceback was a thing then you would have to weaken your launch and hope to get lucky to get a ko.

The knockout rule is to make it more consistent and easier to judge. Say it was the finals and both you and the opponent are one point away from victory. You land a solid hit and send the defending bey into the pocket but the combo gets caught in the pocket and bounces back in, causing you to lose by a spin finish.

Lucky bounces discredit attack types. The current rule removes that uncertainty and makes attack types more consistent.
TT does have its own league but the WBBA has nothing to do with the WBO and though its rules might be a base for WBO rules at times but the WBO rules are set in a way to make the game more consistent

WBBA does not equal WBO.
According to everything being said, the knockout rule actually makes it less consistent and more difficult to judge. It's why matches have to stop after the beys are done spinning and a judge has to examine what actually happened on a camera. It slows the game down to a crawl and feels disingenuous to the game.

Also, as discussed, attack types are doing fine in regions where this rule is not in place. This rule was made because prior to attacks being decent it would be incredibly difficult to get a knockout, mentioned earlier by Kei. This is not the case with the state of play the game is currently in.
(Jan. 13, 2020  2:18 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: According to everything being said, the knockout rule actually makes it less consistent and more difficult to judge. It's why matches have to stop after the beys are done spinning and a judge has to examine what actually happened on a camera. It slows the game down to a crawl and feels disingenuous to the game.

Also, as discussed, attack types are doing fine in regions where this rule is not in place. This rule was made because prior to attacks being decent it would be incredibly difficult to get a knockout, mentioned earlier by Kei. This is not the case with the state of play the game is currently in.

as others have said the WBBA ruling is that it is still in play until it touches the ground so every match with a pocket bounce would still have to be checked for if they Beyblade did or did not touch the ground in order to correctly determine a victor. With this rule, people would request to review the bounce in question. it would be just as slow.

The WBO made the rule for a reason and hasn't found a big enough problem to constitute a rule change. if it touches the back wall of the pocket that's it. It's a knockout, the Beyblade has been knocked out of the actual stadium, therefore, should be out of play.

I do not understand why you are so adamant about this topic but if it was a problem it would have been changed by now. If they test the rule change in a tournament or two and it improves the game then it would be changed and that's it. But if it doesn't improve or ends up making the game less enjoyable it will not change and that will be the end of that.

A new season of burst is coming up. If the new system shakes up the meta enough to discredit stamina and defense without the change then it will be changed. But at the moment there isn't much reason to push such a rule change.

The WBO knows what they are doing.
It's actually quite easy to tell when a beyblade touches the floor. The way they bounce if sideways is quite the indicator. If they aren't sideways, they typically don't rise off of the floor once they touch it.

I'm adamant about this because I enjoy this game, and I want to enjoy it when I play in the only tournaments available to me. I want the game to be played in the best possible manner. Tournament play feels considerably lesser than my playtime spent with friends due to, specifically, the knockout rule. To be ruled knocked out when my beyblade is still clearly on the arena floor feels wrong. To have to wait for a judge to examine game play because there was a big hit feels slow and overall draining. It's as if I'm playing an abridged version of Beyblade. I'm in this game to play, not to win via technicality.
(Jan. 13, 2020  2:41 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: It's actually quite easy to tell when a beyblade touches the floor. The way they bounce if sideways is quite the indicator. If they aren't sideways, they typically don't rise off of the floor once they touch it.

I'm adamant about this because I enjoy this game, and I want to enjoy it when I play in the only tournaments available to me. I want the game to be played in the best possible manner. Tournament play feels considerably lesser than my playtime spent with friends due to, specifically, the knockout rule. To be ruled knocked out when my beyblade is still clearly on the arena floor feels wrong. To have to wait for a judge to examine game play because there was a big hit feels slow and overall draining. It's as if I'm playing an abridged version of Beyblade. I'm in this game to play, not to win via technicality.

It is also called a stadium-out or ring-out finish. That implies that once the Beyblade leaves the stadium or ring, which is done by either being flung out of the stadium through the top or being knocked into the pocket, it is no longer in the ring therefore out.

I am glad that you enjoy the game and play it with your friends. When you play with friends you can play with your rules but tournaments follow WBO rules. And they must be followed as such. A wall bounce cheats an attack-type out of a well-earned point. If there is a problem then the community discusses it, you seem to be the one with most of the problems with the ruling solely because you don't feel like it is correct because it doesn't comply with how you play.
The only issue is that if I bounce off of the back wall, I am clearly still in the ring. The design of the stadium itself granted me additional playtime.

Aside from a few people, the majority seems to be on the side of getting rid of this ruling. It's in discussion among the WBO committee for a reason, because they know this rule has had its time. Attack types are powerful enough these days that they can easily put someone into a pocket multiple times. If the knockout rule weren't in effect, I would have still lost in tournament play due to my beyblade being blasted out into the same pocket twice.

I wish more people were as vocal about this as I am. People who mention this to me in person always say they dislike how the game ends with a wall bounce. A rule designed nearly two years ago doesn't suit the current state of the game and needs to be adjusted. As said earlier, maybe stamina will make a comeback in such a dominating way that this rule needs to be reversed, but currently, if the knockout rule weren't there, the game would be better for it.
(Jan. 13, 2020  2:59 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: The only issue is that if I bounce off of the back wall, I am clearly still in the ring. The design of the stadium itself granted me additional playtime.

Aside from a few people, the majority seems to be on the side of getting rid of this ruling. It's in discussion among the WBO committee for a reason, because they know this rule has had its time. Attack types are powerful enough these days that they can easily put someone into a pocket multiple times. If the knockout rule weren't in effect, I would have still lost in tournament play due to my beyblade being blasted out into the same pocket twice.

I wish more people were as vocal about this as I am. People who mention this to me in person always say they dislike how the game ends with a wall bounce. A rule designed nearly two years ago doesn't suit the current state of the game and needs to be adjusted. As said earlier, maybe stamina will make a comeback in such a dominating way that this rule needs to be reversed, but currently, if the knockout rule weren't there, the game would be better for it.

I agree with the statement that is might cause stamina to dominate the meta yet again. Which is why it should get a trial run. A few tournaments with the rule revoked. To see how it would affect the meta. If it does end up reverting the meta to its previous, stamina heavy ways then it will not be changed.

It should not be changed without a proper trial run.
I don't actually think that stamina will become much better with this rule changed. What I was really implying is that perhaps they might design a few new beys, something akin to the Lord layer but with more knockout defense, which would then stack favor in the direction of stamina.

As of right now if you were to strip the rule away, stamina improves a bit but less than expected. Hitting the stadium wall severely drains stamina and increases the risk to burst. I actually enjoy when a beyblade bounces back into the ring because if I were the attacker in the scenario, I now feel I'm in a position to score two points and get a grand finish, instead of the singular point from the ring out.

I would be more than happy for some trial runs. The matches would end at their genuine conclusion, people wouldn't feel cheated out of victory because a match wouldn't end in a 2-4 second bounce, and judges wouldn't have to slow things down to a crawl to examine what happened if beyblades started to bounce around the arena. I wager that the outcome would be generally positive.
(Jan. 13, 2020  3:16 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: I don't actually think that stamina will become much better with this rule changed. What I was really implying is that perhaps they might design a few new beys, something akin to the Lord layer but with more knockout defense, which would then stack favor in the direction of stamina.

As of right now if you were to strip the rule away, stamina improves a bit but less than expected. Hitting the stadium wall severely drains stamina and increases the risk to burst. I actually enjoy when a beyblade bounces back into the ring because if I were the attacker in the scenario, I now feel I'm in a position to score two points and get a grand finish, instead of the singular point from the ring out.

I would be more than happy for some trial runs. The matches would end at their genuine conclusion, people wouldn't feel cheated out of victory because a match wouldn't end in a 2-4 second bounce, and judges wouldn't have to slow things down to a crawl to examine what happened if beyblades started to bounce around the arena. I wager that the outcome would be generally positive.

The WBO already nerfed KO points a month ago. If we were to go to the WBBA wall bounce back rule, making it 2 points would seem necessary due to the current ruling being 2 point KO (5G format). 3 point burst sounds too much though. Just my 2 cents.
You shouldn't look at the 1 point reduction as a nerf to attack types, but as a way to extend game time. As I said earlier, deck format play is a reward for making it through pools. You get to play a new format for your ability to overcome the rest. Having knockouts count as 1 point isn't at all slowing attack types down, but it is allowing for a better sense of counter play.

On top of that, I stated above the 5G format would be better off with knockouts also counting as 1 point. For how much mental effort is needed in contemplating which beyblade will counter the opponents selection the best, the format feels as if it ends too quick to be worth it. I play a lot of 5G and it's both exhausting and overall unsatisfying due to the match ending in two rounds a fair amount of time. It's why my group has started to play this format less and less. For how good it is conceptually, its current point system diminishes the format.

With the strength of GT beys, there is no need for knockouts to count as 2 points. They're doing just fine with knockouts counting only as 1 point. In Japan, where beyblades can bounce off of the back wall and the regular format still counts a knockout as 1 point, attackers are doing quite well.
(Jan. 13, 2020  3:43 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: You shouldn't look at the 1 point reduction as a nerf to attack types, but as a way to extend game time. As I said earlier, deck format play is a reward for making it through pools. You get to play a new format for your ability to overcome the rest. Having knockouts count as 1 point isn't at all slowing attack types down, but it is allowing for a better sense of counter play.

On top of that, I stated above the 5G format would be better off with knockouts also counting as 1 point. For how much mental effort is needed in contemplating which beyblade will counter the opponents selection the best, the format feels as if it ends too quick to be worth it. I play a lot of 5G and it's both exhausting and overall unsatisfying due to the match ending in two rounds a fair amount of time. It's why my group has started to play this format less and less. For how good it is conceptually, its current point system diminishes the format.

With the strength of GT beys, there is no need for knockouts to count as 2 points. They're doing just fine with knockouts counting only as 1 point. In Japan, where beyblades can bounce off of the back wall and the regular format still counts a knockout as 1 point, attackers are doing quite well.

You might want to state the winning combos for 3 on 3 format over in Japan. Just to back up your words that attack is thriving over there.
The only tournament report for a recent WBBA tournament I can find are the tournament results from Kei, on Beybase. These are the winners

1st: OldSchool™

Judgment Diabolos Blitz Xtreme Dash
Lord Pegasus 0 Cross Xtend Plus
Perfect Phoenix Ratchet Bullet

2nd: Justin TC

Judgment Joker Blitz Xtreme Dash Zan
Lord Spriggan 0 Cross Xtend Plus
Balkesh B3 00 Wall Bearing
Zwei Longinus Sting Quick Dash

3rd: Kei

Judgment Diabolos Blitz Xtreme Dash
Judgment Diabolos Blitz Destroy Dash
Zwei Diabolos 10 Expand Xtreme Dash
Lord Fafnir 0 Cross Xtend Plus
Flare Ashura Around Orbit Metal Gen
Flare Ashura Vanguard Bearing Gen
Union Achilles Sting Quick Dash Retsu


If attack types weren't doing well, Judgment and Zwei wouldn't be so prevalent among the winners.

Quick Edit - Even the rubber drivers, which I suspected would be affected the most when knockouts only count as 1 point and back wall hits leave you in play, are seeing success.
(Jan. 13, 2020  9:14 AM)BladerGem Wrote:
(Jan. 12, 2020  5:25 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: This has been discussed within this thread already, the stadium designs of the past matter not. Beyblade has changed over time and the way the stadium functions has clearly changed as well. The creators of the game intend for beys to bounce off of the walls, hence why it's not considered a knockout in WBBA events if you strike the back wall of a pocket. The design of the stadium encourages bursts more than knockouts, as beys that repeatedly bounce back and forth around the walls are more likely to burst. Although bursting is less common than it used to be, the design of the stadium affords us opportunity to witness a greater victory due to the inability to be knocked out with ease.

---------------

I agree that 5G rules should be Outspin - 1 point, Knockout - 1 point, Burst - 2 points. Just like how deck format changed for the better, 5G ends too quickly for how much mental energy you have to expend when formulating a strategy against your opponents 5 beyblades. There is a dire lack of counter play and it ends up feeling random and unsatisfying when it ends in 2 rounds, which is fairly common. That's a discussion for elsewhere though.

There's no way to know what "the creators of the game" intended.

I'm going to do some testing tomorrow, which should help settle the debate once and for all.

Aaaand I forgot to do the testing... 😅

I'm gonna try to do the testing sometime this week, but I'll need a little help from you guys.

Can someone tell me the 3 biggest and 3 smallest layers? (Smallest being diameter-wise, like how the biggest coin is a quarter and the smallest is a dime)
Just want to add a recent anecdote to this conversation:

I played in four tournaments in Japan over the past couple weeks that were 3on3 in the first stage and 5G in the finals.

I used attack heavily in my decks and was able to place within the top four in each one. In fact, in the latest tournament I went 5-0 in the block stage (3on3) with a heavy focus on offense. And remember, this is with 1pt KO (no wall bounce rule) in effect.

In the final stage (5G), I lost both of my matches and end up fourth place. Still working out the best strategy for that format, but definitely agree that it seems like KOs shouldn't be worth two points for 5G. Most matches are done in 2-3 rounds. In 3on3, 3-4 round matches are much more common. I don't think I ever saw a match go past the fourth Beyblade in 5G yet.

It was also interesting to me that in one round I was KOed but got stuck between the back wall and the edge of the stadium floor ... so I didn't touch the ground and it was considered a OS instead! In 5G it might actually be beneficial to try and use bigger Layers like Imperial to increase the chances of this happening for you.

The fact that this is the case in WBBA rules also makes me wonder whether we should adopt the same ruling for the WBO more explicitly. Right now it says that:

Quote:A Beyblade is knocked-out when it exits the play area. Beyblades stuck on an element of a stadium are still considered in-play.

"play area" is actually a little bit vague.

Anyways, I've been so busy that I haven't been able to try and propel this conversation forward internally to make a decision regarding the WBO's rules, but will try to do so soon ...