Burst Classic - New Format Feedback & Discussion

(May. 21, 2019  1:20 PM)bladekid Wrote: Rubber attack layer? What beys in classic have rubber on the layers?

Rubber attack tips. I used the wrong noun by mistake.
(May. 21, 2019  1:23 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote:
(May. 21, 2019  1:20 PM)bladekid Wrote: Rubber attack layer? What beys in classic have rubber on the layers?

Rubber attack tips. I used the wrong noun by mistake.
Oh ok
Here's my 2 cents, if it's fun to play, not much changes are needed.

From what I've heard from other people, they prefer playing or watching matches with attack types in them; So drivers like X' shouldn't be banned on a "Fun" front.

Also the only major benefit I can see currently that Tornado Stallers would get from ' drivers is a stronger countering to Stationary Attack combos like Octavor and V.H.Y (for example), which they already counter.
(May. 25, 2019  3:14 AM)RacingCheetahz Wrote: Here's my 2 cents, if it's fun to play, not much changes are needed.

From what I've heard from other people, they prefer playing or watching matches with attack types in them; So drivers like X' shouldn't be banned on a "Fun" front.

Also the only major benefit I can see currently that Tornado Stallers would get from ' drivers is a stronger countering to Stationary Attack combos like Octavor and V.H.Y (for example), which they already counter.

I am no tournament player (press F to pay respects), but I am worried about the hasbro players who don't have access to ' drivers. This is also the case with standard BST, too. But, banning them there, will: 1)make little to no change. 2)make the meta even worse and no one can even look forward to attack matches. 3) hasbro's best viable attack layer IMO is L3, which tells a lot......... won't make a difference if they had ' drivers.
From what I have heard, the dual layer era, had a problem of attack self-bursting which is horrible. We need ' drivers for this reason. Although banning V2 (TT) might seem like a bad idea (it isn't a good idea either. It is a bittersweet), but it may allow other attack layers to make their way into the meta more consistently. I think D2 was banned not for it's OP-ness, but mostly due to it plaguing the meta. V2 might be the same case. Maybe, testing has to be done to check whether other attack layers can outclass/ have same attack power as V2 in other combos than x' combos (where V2 is better than others).
V2 has not been plaguing the meta at all. Go check the winning combinations thread.
(May. 25, 2019  1:51 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: V2 has not been plaguing the meta at all. Go check the winning combinations thread.

It is not plaguing meta. But, it is outclassing other layers for attack (especially mobile).
REVOLVE BANNING SUGGESTION:
After that, when first notice of Burst Classic Format arrived, one of most dominative driver is Revolve. It has developed into a Burst Classic Format Bearing. This is so dominative, especially when ' (dash) drivers is banned. @[~Mana~], @[Kei] and all WBO Organized Play Team, what you think about it?
Revolve is very beatable though. I don't think it really needs a hit.

As for the discussion on X' and V2; even as we approach the end of the Experimental period now, I still think both of those need time before a ban decision. They're not OP as much as OU (overused), which is still a valid reason for a restriction imo, but it's something to be observed over time. I don't particularly see either as an issue right now.
I just checked the winning combos thread, and I wouldn't say Revolve is dominative. It's not OP or OU. It gets used by one or two people in the top 3 and it's about on par with Orbit.

We can keep an eye on Revolve but it has weaknesses that keep it from being used all over the place. Banning it seems silly.
I don't think Revolve is overpowered at all in classic. Neither is V2.

To the discussion of Dash drivers, I repeat again: There is no reason for any Dash driver that is currently banned to be banned since they all worse than X' (except Ds', Zt', and possibly Z'). This is provided that Classic Format is going to allow X'. Ds' and Z' should probably be unbanned in this scenario (they probably won't warp the meta, and you can always just ban them if they somehow do). Qc' should already be unbanned following precedent with Hn' and Jl'. The people managing this format have been extremely slow on this. Does anyone actually think that drivers as bad as B', Mr', or Vl' are going to break Burst Classic? I mentioned this topic in January, and the format organizers still haven't figured it out that a ban on the weaker dash drivers while allowing the strongest (besides Ds') doesn't make logical sense.

That doesn't mean I am in favor of Dash drivers for this format. I'm just stating that under the current rules where we're allowing X', there's absolutely no reason to ban any Dash driver because they are all weaker (besides Ds', Zt', and possibly Z'). Personally, I think the format should ban almost all Dash drivers. I think "disliking self bursting" is kinda poor reasoning. Why shouldn't defense types be able to burst attack types? It's important to note that I didn't say all Dash drivers, just most. Dash variants of already weaker drivers such as Merge, Fusion, Blow, and Volcanic should totally be allowed to stay. Testing should be done for Dash variants of Zephyr, Reboot, Hold, and Accel. Dash varients for Xtreme, Hunter, Jolt, Zeta, and Destroy should just be banned (there is no non-Dash version of Quick, but Quick' would be banned). This means attack can burst to non-attack types, but if you do want the tighter spring, you're gonna have to take a trade-off of less attack power.

I still think we should look into unbanning some of the core disks (not 0/7/10/00) with frames still banned, but I don't know how those discs compare to the likes of Gravity, Heavy, Polish, Knuckle, and Yell to say for absolutely sure. Just to increase the availability to make the format more accessible.
(May. 31, 2019  12:48 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: To the discussion of Dash drivers, I repeat again: There is no reason for any Dash driver that is currently banned to be banned since they all worse than X' (except Ds', Zt', and possibly Z'). This is provided that Classic Format is going to allow X'. Ds' and Z' should probably be unbanned in this scenario (they probably won't warp the meta, and you can always just ban them if they somehow do). Qc' should already be unbanned following precedent with Hn' and Jl'. The people managing this format have been extremely slow on this. Does anyone actually think that drivers as bad as B', Mr', or Vl' are going to break Burst Classic? I mentioned this topic in January, and the format organizers still haven't figured it out that a ban on the weaker dash drivers while allowing the strongest (besides Ds') doesn't make logical sense.

I don't think either of these are fair points. Were the events over the past month with Dash Drivers permitted not a sign that we've looked into it? Or even the reflections from us in this thread after actually participating in these events?

Be fair, be reasonable. Your statements here are neither of these things; they completely overlook trial changes that started a month ago, insult a careful format planning process (keeping in mind that this'll be a ranked format, so better safe than sorry), and even seem to imply a lack of reading previous posts in the thread.

(May. 31, 2019  12:48 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: That doesn't mean I am in favor of Dash drivers for this format. I'm just stating that under the current rules where we're allowing X', there's absolutely no reason to ban any Dash driver because they are all weaker (besides Ds', Zt', and possibly Z'). Personally, I think the format should ban almost all Dash drivers. I think "disliking self bursting" is kinda poor reasoning. Why shouldn't defense types be able to burst attack types? It's important to note that I didn't say all Dash drivers, just most. Dash variants of already weaker drivers such as Merge, Fusion, Blow, and Volcanic should totally be allowed to stay. Testing should be done for Dash variants of Zephyr, Reboot, Hold, and Accel. Dash varients for Xtreme, Hunter, Jolt, Zeta, and Destroy should just be banned (there is no non-Dash version of Quick, but Quick' would be banned). This means attack can burst to non-attack types, but if you do want the tighter spring, you're gonna have to take a trade-off of less attack power.

And this is precisely why we're being careful. I don't even consider Xtreme' to be a Driver that's locked-in and definitely staying honestly; during the experimental period (which we haven't said has ended yet for a good reason), no part is safe, and every single part is still under consideration, permitted or not.

Precisely why it's wrong to make assumptions, why we're running Dash-permitted events (and should probably run full Dash-banned events too), and why we're not rushing on committing changes to the actual ruleset straight away. Data is important in this planning process and, thanks to the events that have taken place, be it default or Dash-permitted, we have a lot to go on to make some actual informed decisions rather than purely assuming an unproven opinionated point as the holy gospel.

(May. 31, 2019  12:48 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: I still think we should look into unbanning some of the core disks (not 0/7/10/00) with frames still banned, but I don't know how those discs compare to the likes of Gravity, Heavy, Polish, Knuckle, and Yell to say for absolutely sure. Just to increase the availability to make the format more accessible.

Asides from accessibility; why? What point does this serve than unbanning for the sake of it?

It's similar to the calls at the start like "Unban 11! Unban 13! Both aren't OP!"; outside of accessibility (which I'll highlight that for Classic, if you own Layers for the Format, you almost definitely own Disks too because of how the SKUs work), these serve as things people want permitted for the sake of it, and not for any good reason.

I'll emphasise the same point I keep making; not everything is supposed to be or ever will be viable in every format. You'll always have parts that aren't useful in a format at all, and the part existing or someone owning that part is not a right to be like "yeah, I should be able to compete with this". As far as I'm concerned, these Core Disks fall under this; permitting them would kill the OG Disks outright as people would only use 4, 5, 6, and that's not even in the spirit of Classic either.



And while it's mentioned above; yes, we've hit 10 events for Classic! Thanks to all our Organizers who have taken part in the push to gather tournament data and officially get this format ranked. Unfortunately, as stated above, we're looking to continue the Experimental period for Classic until the end of June to finalise our findings and ensure that the ruleset that goes live for ranked is the best ruleset we could plan.

Our major consideration right now is where to place Dash Drivers and, as stated above also, we'd also encourage Organizers running Classic events to also consider running Dash-banned events to see the impact of the metagame when Dash Drivers are effectively reverted back to their base forms (so regular Xtreme instead of Xtreme' etc).

Thanks all!
(May. 31, 2019  1:21 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: It's similar to the calls at the start like "Unban 11! Unban 13! Both aren't OP!"
Actually to me it sounds more like "Free the 12!" but in wall of text format.
(May. 31, 2019  2:27 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote:
(May. 31, 2019  1:21 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: It's similar to the calls at the start like "Unban 11! Unban 13! Both aren't OP!"
Actually to me it sounds more like "Free the 12!" but in wall of text format.

The idea of unbanning 11 and 13 revolves around the points that it would add a bit more variety withought being OP, whereas “free the 12” revolves around the idea that breaking someone’s beyblade is cool and wimps who can’t afford replacement parts don’t deserve to be in tournaments anyway.
(May. 31, 2019  1:21 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: I don't think either of these are fair points. Were the events over the past month with Dash Drivers permitted not a sign that we've looked into it? Or even the reflections from us in this thread after actually participating in these events?

Be fair, be reasonable. Your statements here are neither of these things; they completely overlook trial changes that started a month ago, insult a careful format planning process (keeping in mind that this'll be a ranked format, so better safe than sorry), and even seem to imply a lack of reading previous posts in the thread.

It's reasonable to say that drivers who have all been outclassed by Xtreme will also be outclassed by Xtreme' if they are also a Dash driver. X > (Mr, Vl, B, A, Rb, H), so X' > (Mr', Vl', B', A', Rb', H'). The crux of my argument is that Xtreme' is allowed by default, while there's testing happening for drivers that have already been proven worse than Xtreme', which doesn't make sense. If this was just about what we know to be potentially strong (Ds', Z', Zt', and rubber Dash drivers), then I wouldn't really have any complaints.

A small issue with events is that you're only going to get data for the best drivers: X', Qc', Hn', Jl', Ds', Zt'. You might see data for Z', A', H', and Rb'. You're going to get nothing on Mr', Vl', B', nor F' because they're already very outclassed parts that wouldn't remotely standup.

(May. 31, 2019  1:21 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: And this is precisely why we're being careful. I don't even consider Xtreme' to be a Driver that's locked-in and definitely staying honestly; during the experimental period (which we haven't said has ended yet for a good reason), no part is safe, and every single part is still under consideration, permitted or not.

Precisely why it's wrong to make assumptions, why we're running Dash-permitted events (and should probably run full Dash-banned events too), and why we're not rushing on committing changes to the actual ruleset straight away. Data is important in this planning process and, thanks to the events that have taken place, be it default or Dash-permitted, we have a lot to go on to make some actual informed decisions rather than purely assuming an unproven opinionated point as the holy gospel.

The thing is the rules allow Xtreme', and have so from the get-go. This creates the image that it is locked-in and staying. I didn't see much discussion from organizers on the discussion about Xtreme'. I apologize if I misread or forgot something.

There's data already available though based on previous metas in Standard and the general consensus of drivers there. We know Xtreme, Quick, Jolt, Hunter, and Destroy are all on the same competitive level. Their Dash drivers would probably be the first to get banned if we go about banning Dash drivers. Zeta' is a special exception that makes Defense too good, so it would get banned with them. We know Merge, Blow, Fusion, and Volcanic are completely outclassed in performance, so their Dash variants can stay. There's a bunch of drivers that fall into the grey area, so I can say that needs testing. It isn't unproven; I'm just using already existing data. That doesn't make me completely correct (someone could figure out how to use Mr' like an X' or someone figures out how to use Vl'), but I think it's a good estimate given the current consensus on attack drivers that already exists.

Plus, in a hypothetical where strong Dash drivers are banned, allowing Dash versions of weak drivers without them being overpowered to increase the pool in the meta sounds like a good idea.

(May. 31, 2019  1:21 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: Asides from accessibility; why? What point does this serve than unbanning for the sake of it?

It's similar to the calls at the start like "Unban 11! Unban 13! Both aren't OP!"; outside of accessibility (which I'll highlight that for Classic, if you own Layers for the Format, you almost definitely own Disks too because of how the SKUs work), these serve as things people want permitted for the sake of it, and not for any good reason.

I'll emphasise the same point I keep making; not everything is supposed to be or ever will be viable in every format. You'll always have parts that aren't useful in a format at all, and the part existing or someone owning that part is not a right to be like "yeah, I should be able to compete with this". As far as I'm concerned, these Core Disks fall under this; permitting them would kill the OG Disks outright as people would only use 4, 5, 6, and that's not even in the spirit of Classic either.

I don't have any clue on which discs would be fair (hence I don't have any list for them). It's just an idea, and it's completely just for availability.

(May. 31, 2019  1:21 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: And while it's mentioned above; yes, we've hit 10 events for Classic! Thanks to all our Organizers who have taken part in the push to gather tournament data and officially get this format ranked. Unfortunately, as stated above, we're looking to continue the Experimental period for Classic until the end of June to finalise our findings and ensure that the ruleset that goes live for ranked is the best ruleset we could plan.

Our major consideration right now is where to place Dash Drivers and, as stated above also, we'd also encourage Organizers running Classic events to also consider running Dash-banned events to see the impact of the metagame when Dash Drivers are effectively reverted back to their base forms (so regular Xtreme instead of Xtreme' etc).

Thanks all!

Congratulations! (I wish there were more events in my area.) I'll probably do testing with a friend and also by myself against various meta combos for Classic to obtain data for less than adequate Dash drivers, Charge driver (some of my experience shows it being busted), and a little bit on Octa (just because I'm checking Charge, but I only have a Hasbro one).
(May. 31, 2019  6:51 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: It's reasonable to say that drivers who have all been outclassed by Xtreme will also be outclassed by Xtreme' if they are also a Dash driver. X > (Mr, Vl, B, A, Rb, H), so X' > (Mr', Vl', B', A', Rb', H'). 
Hold and Hold’ are driver commonly used for “LAD” type battles.... when you have a good Hold it can out “LAD” Destroy.  I don’t know that Xtreme>Hold...  kind of like Apple>Orange? (I have been taught it’s actually avoiding precession but old habits die hard. I will incorrectly call it LAD for now)

Vl and Vl’ can be extremely good tornado stallers post “awakening”.  Vl’ was in the Asia Championships top 3 deck for that reason just days ago...  Again I am not sure how Xtreme’ is better?  Are you saying Xtreme is a better tornado staller? A rubber flat?

https://imgur.com/gallery/W8uekUB

This shows Vl’ beating At and Br by spin finish...
(May. 31, 2019  7:08 AM)Shindog Wrote: Vl and Vl’ can be extremely good tornado stallers post “awakening”.  Vl’ was in the Asia Championships top 3 deck for that reason just days ago...  Again I am not sure how Xtreme’ is better?  Are you saying Xtreme is a better tornado staller? A rubber flat?

https://imgur.com/gallery/W8uekUB

This shows Vl’ beating At and Br by spin finish...
I was just about to post about these 2 drivers with the same arguments. You beat me to it.......
P.S: Am I the only person who was shocked to see volcanic' being used?

What is 'awakening'? Wearing down bumps between the free spinning portion and the rest of the tip, so that it free spins more?
(May. 31, 2019  9:17 AM)Ash_Ketchum_007 Wrote:
(May. 31, 2019  7:08 AM)Shindog Wrote: Vl and Vl’ can be extremely good tornado stallers post “awakening”.  Vl’ was in the Asia Championships top 3 deck for that reason just days ago...  Again I am not sure how Xtreme’ is better?  Are you saying Xtreme is a better tornado staller? A rubber flat?

https://imgur.com/gallery/W8uekUB

This shows Vl’ beating At and Br by spin finish...
I was just about to post about these 2 drivers with the same arguments. You beat me to it.......
P.S: Am I the only person who was shocked to see volcanic' being used?

What is 'awakening'? Wearing down bumps between the free spinning portion and the rest of the tip, so that it free spins more?

I think the awakening of Vl or Vl’ is wearing down the the free spinning part a lot so that it is extremely free spinning and smooth.
That sounds... Not very legal for tournaments lol
(May. 31, 2019  3:51 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: That sounds... Not very legal for tournaments lol

This may be true for WBO but obviously TT/WBBA allowed it for the most prominent G1 event of the year.  Also the driver itself probably won’t look all that worn.  The wear is mostly internal.  So I dunno if there could be a standard that a certain Vl is “too” free spinning?  I mean do we stall it and decide if it stalls too effectively?
(May. 31, 2019  7:08 AM)Shindog Wrote:
(May. 31, 2019  6:51 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: It's reasonable to say that drivers who have all been outclassed by Xtreme will also be outclassed by Xtreme' if they are also a Dash driver. X > (Mr, Vl, B, A, Rb, H), so X' > (Mr', Vl', B', A', Rb', H'). 
Hold and Hold’ are driver commonly used for “LAD” type battles.... when you have a good Hold it can out “LAD” Destroy.  I don’t know that Xtreme>Hold...  kind of like Apple>Orange? (I have been taught it’s actually avoiding precession but old habits die hard. I will incorrectly call it LAD for now)

Vl and Vl’ can be extremely good tornado stallers post “awakening”.  Vl’ was in the Asia Championships top 3 deck for that reason just days ago...  Again I am not sure how Xtreme’ is better?  Are you saying Xtreme is a better tornado staller? A rubber flat?

https://imgur.com/gallery/W8uekUB

This shows Vl’ beating At and Br by spin finish...
Yeah, for some reason or another, Vl’ is becoming very prominent in Japan on pP. Another Japanese beytube channel that does Deck battles showed pP Vl’ beating pP Xt+, CZS Br, and hS Br somehow.
(May. 31, 2019  4:35 PM)Ardmore Bladers Wrote:
(May. 31, 2019  7:08 AM)Shindog Wrote: Hold and Hold’ are driver commonly used for “LAD” type battles.... when you have a good Hold it can out “LAD” Destroy.  I don’t know that Xtreme>Hold...  kind of like Apple>Orange? (I have been taught it’s actually avoiding precession but old habits die hard. I will incorrectly call it LAD for now)

Vl and Vl’ can be extremely good tornado stallers post “awakening”.  Vl’ was in the Asia Championships top 3 deck for that reason just days ago...  Again I am not sure how Xtreme’ is better?  Are you saying Xtreme is a better tornado staller? A rubber flat?

https://imgur.com/gallery/W8uekUB

This shows Vl’ beating At and Br by spin finish...
Yeah, for some reason or another, Vl’ is becoming very prominent in Japan on pP. Another Japanese beytube channel that does Deck battles showed pP Vl’ beating pP Xt+, CZS Br, and hS Br somehow.

Hmm pretty sure those opposite spin combos can win by being launched harder. You can see that at the Asian Championship the Vl’ beat Br by KO. I would think that was by intent.

(May. 31, 2019  4:49 PM)Shindog Wrote:
(May. 31, 2019  4:35 PM)Ardmore Bladers Wrote: Yeah, for some reason or another, Vl’ is becoming very prominent in Japan on pP. Another Japanese beytube channel that does Deck battles showed pP Vl’ beating pP Xt+, CZS Br, and hS Br somehow.

Hmm pretty sure those opposite spin combos can win by being launched harder. You can see that at the Asian Championship the Vl’ beat Br by KO. I would think that was by intent.


Your probably right, although a well balanced pP could possibly stall a bearing based zombie combo.
But, the real question is whether volcanic' is too good for classic beys. Maybe yes, but I think no. Perfect phoenix has a pretty good weight advantage. And the armor doesn't seem to come off easily in this combo. In classic format, I don't think volcanic' can perform as well when it doesn't have the good OWD of outer or the raised shape (?) of perfect phoenix.
P.S: Is it just me or does the the pP vl' combo seem to be taller than it should be (I know volcanic is taller than average)?
(May. 31, 2019  7:08 AM)Shindog Wrote:
(May. 31, 2019  6:51 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: It's reasonable to say that drivers who have all been outclassed by Xtreme will also be outclassed by Xtreme' if they are also a Dash driver. X > (Mr, Vl, B, A, Rb, H), so X' > (Mr', Vl', B', A', Rb', H'). 
Hold and Hold’ are driver commonly used for “LAD” type battles.... when you have a good Hold it can out “LAD” Destroy.  I don’t know that Xtreme>Hold...  kind of like Apple>Orange? (I have been taught it’s actually avoiding precession but old habits die hard. I will incorrectly call it LAD for now)

Vl and Vl’ can be extremely good tornado stallers post “awakening”.  Vl’ was in the Asia Championships top 3 deck for that reason just days ago...  Again I am not sure how Xtreme’ is better?  Are you saying Xtreme is a better tornado staller? A rubber flat?

https://imgur.com/gallery/W8uekUB

This shows Vl’ beating At and Br by spin finish...

It was more like Hold doesn't see competitive use while Xtreme does, though Destroy is a better comparison in terms of what job they do.

I have no clue about anything involving Vl/Vl' being used in tornado stalling. In my opinion, the driver is too wide for that to work well, so I'm very confused about how that works fundamentally. My comparison was about Volcanic as an offensive attack driver, which is generally seen as completely out of control (and tall), which is why people use Xtreme instead as their preferred attack driver.
(May. 31, 2019  8:19 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote:
(May. 31, 2019  7:08 AM)Shindog Wrote: Hold and Hold’ are driver commonly used for “LAD” type battles.... when you have a good Hold it can out “LAD” Destroy.  I don’t know that Xtreme>Hold...  kind of like Apple>Orange? (I have been taught it’s actually avoiding precession but old habits die hard. I will incorrectly call it LAD for now)

Vl and Vl’ can be extremely good tornado stallers post “awakening”.  Vl’ was in the Asia Championships top 3 deck for that reason just days ago...  Again I am not sure how Xtreme’ is better?  Are you saying Xtreme is a better tornado staller? A rubber flat?

https://imgur.com/gallery/W8uekUB

This shows Vl’ beating At and Br by spin finish...

It was more like Hold doesn't see competitive use while Xtreme does, though Destroy is a better comparison in terms of what job they do.

I have no clue about anything involving Vl/Vl' being used in tornado stalling. In my opinion, the driver is too wide for that to work well, so I'm very confused about how that works fundamentally. My comparison was about Volcanic as an offensive attack driver, which is generally seen as completely out of control (and tall), which is why people use Xtreme instead as their preferred attack driver.
Hold has been in the winning combo thread at least a few times since release if I remember correctly.  Most recently I believe wombat used it to place, there may have been others recently but I can’t remember.  I know people who chose to play Hold that own destroy.  

Vl’ is now on the winning combo list of possibly the biggest beyblade tournament in 2019 (considering the participants had to win national qualifiers first).  Vl’ made it to the finals and that is just fact, confusing or not.  The primary purpose of Vl/Vl’ seems to be a staller but it can also be used occasionally for attack.  I think that’s great flexibility and a fun driver to play with. There has been videos of “awakened” Vl stalling since a week after wV released.  It took a while to find the right combo and environment to make use of it I guess.

I guess my point is: 

Before deciding on banning or not banning something I think it’s best to carefully consider different ways parts can be used and how they interact with other parts.  Collecting this kind of data takes time and often it will take tournament results.  And things can change over time.