this is what happened to me, as i went to the tournamnt the amount of defence types detered me from my mf LLD 90 rf and mf vulcan horuseus 85 rf, but as an ttack blader i will try to find a solustion and maybe just try to avoid thinking about it next.

I also cant wait to have a rematch against Lee as it was really fun and close

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The other factor is labelling Beyblades into types. Poor incarnations of the Earth WD such as MF Earth C145SD are often labelled as defence. I avoid labelling Beyblades into types when discussing tournament play but perceived defensive qualities are a big factor.

yes that is true, as if you label a bey into a type you may counter it in the wrong way as i did, because someone used a hell kerbecs BD145 cs and i assumed straight away it was an attack/defence combo but i failed to see the BD145 and cs properly and chose a RS defence combo, and his bey was used for stamina, i should have used my stamina or high attack combos but its to late now

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bladestorms point, you thaught he used rf so u used rs 'skipping a step to secondary archetype'
if i understood right

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Over in Melbourne. Stamina and Defense really Thrives.

Alot of kids who come to our Tourny's are little kids who Know next to nothing about beyblade.
Most of them are scared for a Attack Type. They cant get a Sliding Shoot. In my last one. I had a Very easy Group, so I didnt bother with deception or whatever. I went for an Easy option that would either Outspin the little kids "Stamina's" Bcause of their soft launch. I just used MF-M Flame Aquario 230CS. It was just easy. couldnt be bothered using an attack type, I eventually used attack when I went against good Bladers though.

Also Low Attackers are next to pointless these days. With 230 released. I use only High or mid Height attackers.
I think since Beyblade is set out to little kids. Little kids buy them and Hate attack types. Then come to our Tourney's and They are the only type used.

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attacks only type used? well in london ive only seen defence and stamina, and attacks where only used in free play, (including me ) i sould really start using my attack combos

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Just back to Control_'s point, I've never seen gravity do so poorly. I need to go re-test. You were using it in left spin, right?

Oh, I also find, Perseus ATK (the green one) does better, but yeah.

Oh, hey, I haven't been using an MF-H on Basalt, BRB TESTAN

Okay, yeah, MF-H Basalt Aquario (Hasbro) 230CS destroys Rubber Flat (Haven't tried LLDrago yet though).
BUT, I've found a semi-reliable answer, methinks

MF Gravity Perseus (ATK) CH120MF. It's pretty much my favourite combo right now. I don't have any CH120's right now, as mine broke, but I tested MF Gravity Perseus (ATK) 145MF, Left spin, counter mode VS MF-H Basalt Aquario 230CS
CS MINT
And, the results were 3-2 in Gravity's favour. There was one draw, which was re-shot. I'm pretty confident these results are representative. Gravity's left-spin can hurt it if it comes down toba stamina battle, as normally, it looks like it's winning before they equalise, but yeah, it's needed to KO.

Anyway. GP: 3/5, 2KO, 1OS
Basalt: 2/5: 2KO

So, not too bad. That said, this combo WRECKS traditional attack, from what I've seen.

Oh, yeah, MF Lightning L Drago 145RF vs MF-H Basalt Aquario 230CS
RF Prime, CS Mint
LLD: 2/5, All KO
Basalt: 3/5 2OS, 1KO

Eeesh... This combo may be Overpowered. More testing is needed.

EEEEDDDIIIIT: SO, TURNS OUT I WAS LAUNCHING GRAVITY WRONG. DERP, HUH
I messed up the slide shoot, I shot on the wrong side of the stadium. Blargh.

ANYWAY, Revised RESULTS:

MF Gravity Perseus (ATK) 145MF (Left Spin, Counter Mode), VS MFH Basalt Aquario 230CS (CS Near Mint).
GP: 4/5, 3 KO, 1OS
Basalt: 1/5, OS

I honestly think that with a bit more practice with MF Gravity Perseus (ATK) 145 MF, I'll be fine. I am thinking that it does better than RF because it gets more hits in, and when it hits Basalt, it actually gains RPM or something like that. But yeah. Gotta go find me a Dark Gasher (I need the other parts, and my last Hasbro CH120 was great).

A lot of this combo's success is getting the launch right, though, so yeah.

Of course, that said, seeing as I AM using Perseus ATK, which isn't a common part, and Metal Flat, yeah, I still think MF-H Basalt Aquario 230CS is pretty damn imposing.

Not sure how it handles vs stamina, but yeah, easily the strongest defensive beyblade I've seen.

Okay, a couple of rounds vs my Hell Kerbecs BD145WD/EWD, and it's murdering Kerbecs. Gonna try WD, but yeah.

The only real concern I have is how it does against, say, Earth Bull 230CS, or even Hell Kerbecs 230CS or whatever. If it can beat the former reasonably consistently, then I'd consider it too powerful.

Oh I did 5 Rounds with MF-H Hell Kerbecs 230CS vs MF Gravity Perseus (ATK) 145MF (Left Spin, Counter Mode).
GP: 5/5: 4KO, 1OS
HK: 0/5
I honestly though Hell would do better. CS is the same as before, Perseus launched sliding, Hell launched straight.

But yeah, if this Basalt combo can beat other 230-based stamina combos (mainly Earth Bull 230CS), then it's a definite worry.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Metal Flat(Medium Friction) on a High Collision wheel("Recoil" as the WBO calls it) is a good meta-game choice against an RF-heavy meta-game? I think it's a bad choice if no one is using 230CS. MF-H Earth BD145CS would be my choice if I had to play in Italy's current metagame. Utilising Earth to undercut the traditional attackers via outspin and BD145 to gain advantage over left spin attackers as much as possible.

I'm not talking about Italy's (or any RF based) metagame, I'm talking about the Stamina/Defence based metagame. My testing of the combo speaks for itself, it's surprisingly consistent. I was surprised when I first used it, but yeah, it manages.
That said, if you do come up against an RF based Attack, you're pretty much screwed. Your best bet in that case is to try to launch to avoid their hits. Again, spin direction choice might help, but yeah, you'd really want to avoid it through prediction, if you can.
Against an RS-based opponent, you just straight shoot to the tornado ridge and outspin them. Against CS or WD or whatever, sliding shoot. Not sure how RSF does as I only just got mine and haven't had time to test, but I'd think, as long as it isn't too offensive (which is true from what I've heard), you'll be able to outspin it.
I think this whole "GRAVITY HAS SO MUCH RECOIL GUISE" thing is exaggerated anyway.

That said, honestly, I do now think MF-H Basalt Bull 230CS is the strongest beyblade out right now. If there was a perth tourney tomorrow, it'd likely be my top choice. It may well break the metagame, I think a little more time and testing may be needed to tell, and the new 4D system MAY give attack something new (I am pretty keen on the idea of Destroy LDrago, Metal top for smash, plastic bottom reduces recoil from lower beys) to take it down with.

Man, I hope this isn't moved to the advanced section. Hopefully, someone will make a separate thread there if this takes off....

Also, I'm interested to see what happens if people take up the idea of Rubber Flat Defense. Libra CH120RF may suck against a lot of things now, but attack isn't really one of them. I'd imagine it'd slaughter my Gravity+MetalFlat combo, so that together with MFH Basalt Aquario 230CS lurking around the metagame, yeah, might actually unbalance it.

Still, I think if we have to ban anything, just banning (MF?)/MFH Basalt ___ 230CS might be fine. I think it's just that it's perfectly balanced, between defence and stamina, that's making it so overpowered.


ANYWAY, I gotta go to Work now, so I'll be back later. Try not to derp this thread up, anyone. So far, it's actually pretty unbesmirched, and I'd hate to see it moved to the advanced forum.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

For me, RS/RSF "Defence" is a myth as a proper tournament combo because it cannot fundamentally defeat random combos such as darkdf145FS,rock145WB,earth145WD (Familiar huh). Like I said earlier, solo testing to me doesn't reveal much for tournament sucess.

That's a fair call, and yeah, I don't have much love for RS. Otherwise I'd have been rockin' the MFH Libra BD145RS, it's a brick, but it also has the stamina of a brick.
I suppose it can be useful with prediction, but it's never something I'd use otherwise.
Still, GP+MF is pretty good at KOing CS.

But yeah, I am now kinda on the side of the idea that we may need to do something to rebalance the metagame, but I'd like to wait for Destroy Ldrago, and I'd like to observe the Italian metagame a bit. I think it'd be cool if someone over there would try MF-H Basalt Aquario 230CS at a tournament. To copy someone elses joke:
Deception in Italy: Don't use Attack.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

For me, RS/RSF "Defence" is a myth as a proper tournament combo because it cannot fundamentally defeat random combos such as darkdf145FS,rock145WB,earth145WD (Familiar huh). Like I said earlier, solo testing to me doesn't reveal much for tournament sucess.

The RS/RSF point you've made is something I absolutely agree with. The purpose of these customisations is arguably pretty niche; in fact, the entire Defense typing is niche and serves an extremely specific purpose. It sounds obvious, but successful customisations will generally defeat a wide range of Beyblades, regardless of tier.

This leads me on to your second point, because still, I think testing plays a huge part in the metagame. Yes, it works on the assumption that everyone has a full knowledge of the entire top-tier; but learning more about different customisations is absolutely going to put you in a better position, since a lot of other people will be doing it too. The point is, you can generally get quite far by defeating various Dark-based customisations, but you will inevitably meet an advanced player, and have to be drawn into using something top-tier, along with "deception tactics".

There were some cool points made in previous posts too but I'm kind of lazy to go back and read and reply properly at the moment, LOL.

So are we all agreeing that
mf basalt......230cs,
And
Mf hell......bd145cs/wd
Are the only top tier blades we need in uk tourneys. Lol
But how to stop them??? A lit of the top players use these eg. Kevin, blade storm, me, prob beyjun, blitz and more so if we have a successful counter than attack has hope like in blade storms theory. Lol

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The next "Primary archetype" Beyblade will be what is able to defeat MF-H Basalt 230CS and Hell BD145WD varaints consitently but also beat the secondary and tertiary EarthWD variants, Burn WD variants which are also still popular.

sexychild, yes, yes I am, as of right now. I AM interested to hear what <3 has to say, if anything, though.

Well, so far my Gravity combo isn't too bad at it, and retains usefulness against almost everything else, but it's not a cheap combo, considering Perseus ATK makes a big difference in its efficacy, and shooting with it isn't easy.

As I said, I'm pretty excited about Destroy L Drago, I suspect the fact it's got metal on top might mean it can effectively upper attack basalt, but then its recoil might hurt it, and UGH I MUST STOP SPECULATING.
That said, it might be like midnight and be too light, but again TIME WILL TELL.

Beating Hell Kerbecs BD145WD isn't that hard, it's just that particular Basalt variant that is horrible.
Does anyone have two 230's? because if so, I'm keen to see how basalt handles against another 230 combo, which I suspect might be it's main counter (Libra, Earth, maybe even Hell __ 230cs/wd etc).

I think the funny thing is how excited everyone is about libra, and how so many people are like "OH MY GOD LIBRA CH120RF IS LEGAL IT IS GRAET", when it's pretty average, and we have something WAY better, and actually game-breaking (or bending) here already. Frustrating in the libra thread (srsly, why won't they just read the testing), but here, it's more amusing.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

MF-H Basalt Cancer 230D v MF-H Libra 230D
Basalt 10 Libra 5.

As was seen in the finals of Feb Freeze, my basalt combo took out's Lee's Libra combo, exactly those above.
PRECISE LAUNCHING NECESSARY.

Edit: Clearly Libra was dropped in at a perfect time where it's stamina qualities have been easily belittled by Basalt.
Basalt however isn't overpowered to a QQ extent; Gravity can match up:

With correct MF-H Basalt Cancer 230CS launch, it beats MF-H Gravity Perseus R145RF :
Basalt 9 Gravity 6

There is as I said a simple solution to Basalt 230 which gives positive results.

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MF-H Basalt Cancer 230D v MF-H Libra 230D
Basalt 10 Libra 5.

As was seen in the finals of Feb Freeze, my basalt combo took out's Lee's Libra combo, exactly those above.
PRECISE LAUNCHING NECESSARY.

So you played super heavy super tall defense against super heavy super tall defense? What does that prove to us.......

Libra CH120RF might be a bit outdated, but it is still a good anti-attack choice. I'd chose Libra CH120RF over any standard RS/RSF based defense combo, just because it puts up a good fight against Lightning.

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These are both stamina 230 as well as defence, if you caught up, MF-H is a must on 230, so the point was, these endurance metal wheels are head to head to prove which can OS. Simple, think about it.

You must read earlier posts, I was advancing on MeteorKing's 230v230 and the first example bracketed.
So Basalt does well against low traditional stamina as well as the unbanned Libra as seen from both this and the tournament finals (which I find better 1v1 player competitive scenario results).

Furthermore the parts 230, Basalt, Libra, and Earth are unsettling to "catergorise into types" for some people. If it's OSing low tradition stamina, then ofcourse it's stamina despite it's weight which is key to 230. Now what's frankly most confusing is MF-H Basalt 230CS, with such a high KO rate, constant OSing, the "poor" weight distribution becomes a overweighing advantage. Remember these heavy 230 combo's are both Stamina and Defence.

MF-H Basalt 230CS I see as balanced, it ticks my box. CS sliding shoot + unsteady weight distribution = KO.
Plastic-Metal collision + tall weight = OS - This is my opinion of a great Bey to date thanks to late releases.

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These are both stamina 230 as well as defence, if you caught up, MF-H is a must on 230, so the point was, these endurance metal wheels are head to head to prove which can OS. Simple, think about it.

I'm personally not seeing the point of counting either of these as stamina types. Earth or Burn on 125-145 (possibly even lower because of the weight of the opposing combo) would easily outspin either of them. Lightning on a tall track would more than likely (judging from my own experience with MF-H Libra 230RSF) destroy both of them.

For those arguing against RS/RSF, the purpose of it's existence defensively is to negate same-spin attack types. Once a good left spin defense wheel comes out you will probably see a huge rise in RS/RSF to counter Lightning/Gravity.

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Evan, mfh basalt bull 230cs puts up just as good a fight, if not better.

Control, were those wins os or ko, mostly? If they're os, then honestly, I'm legitimately concerned about mfh+basalt+230.

How does D fare against attack in that combo, by the way?

Evan, look at the testing. I thought the same as you. Mfh basalt aquario 230cs beats lightning and gravity reliably. Rs/rsf ARE niche in tournaments, their presence is felt more through the threat of them showing up than them being there. That's not really relevant anyway.

Also you're a fool if you think earth bull ad145wd can outspin hell kerbecs bd145wd, it doesn't. And basalt bull 230cs kills earth bull ad145wd too, and kerbecs more than not. Of course, my testing of the former was without an mfh, but yeah, I can retest tommorrow, but I doubt it'll change.

Please go read some results before replying again.

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Evan, mfh basalt bull 230cs puts up just as good a fight, if not better.

Control, were those wins os or ko, mostly? If they're os, then honestly, I'm legitimately concerned about mfh+basalt+230.

How does D fare against attack in that combo, by the way?

I do not doubt MF-H Basalt Bull 230 CS's ability, but I completely disagree that MF-H Basalt Bull 230D would hold up as a defense type.

With any track 125 or higher, most good attack wheels should do serious damage against D.

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D is an awesome comparison to CS in its stamina properties are seen on 230. It does have less grip somewhat, meaning less interchangeable movement patterns.

Evan
please do some research, ofcourse these Basalt230 Combos will OS any Burn/Earth under145 - This has been established for a long while now, plastic-metal collision, weight on top, and a CS bottom to flatter unbalanced mayhem above.

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D is an awesome comparison to CS in its stamina properties are seen on 230. It does have less grip somewhat, meaning less interchangeable movement patterns.

Evan
please do some research, ofcourse these Basalt230 Combos will OS any Burn/Earth under145 - This has been established for a long while now, plastic-metal collision, weight on top, and a CS bottom to flatter unbalanced mayhem above.

Somewhat less grip? Almost no grip is present at all with D.....

Trust me, I've done my research. Your post made no sense. I'm referring to MF-H Basalt 230D losing to Earth/Burn 145WD. If Basalt didn't win from KO, I have a hard time seeing it out spinning something with as good of stamina as Burn 145WD.

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Evan, mfh basalt bull 230cs puts up just as good a fight, if not better.

Control, were those wins os or ko, mostly? If they're os, then honestly, I'm legitimately concerned about mfh+basalt+230.

How does D fare against attack in that combo, by the way?

I do not doubt MF-H Basalt Bull 230 CS's ability, but I completely disagree that MF-H Basalt Bull 230D would hold up as a defense type.

With any track 125 or higher, most good attack wheels should do serious damage against D.

I'm really disappointed on your fallacious statements. CS adds so much height, ALL results to date (even 1v1) agree blatant wins with CS. First handedly seeing, the UK metagame is tilting to revolve around MF 230CS since the Saturday tournament, which is again, blatant proof of MF230CS/D ruling.

It doesn't matter if D has any grip at all, from first hand viewing it's so blatant the weight on top finishes off the lack of grip. The gravity itself will counter out any high collision impacts - SERIOUSLY PLASTIC TO METAL COLLISION - 145 is old metagame, we have modernised.

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I have a hard time seeing it out spinning something with as good of stamina as Burn 145WD.

You are behind the times. Hell BD145 HF/S can OS all burn 145 and lower WD and all earth 145 and lower WD.