Does it matter? He used right-spin defense, I wasn't attacking you. Just saying that a right spin defense combo was used in tournament play today, no biggie
Why Coated Sharp Needs to Stay.
Poll: Is CS still a viable part?
| Yes |
|
35 |
| No |
|
1 |
| Total: | 100% | 36 vote(s) |
(Jul. 28, 2014 2:06 AM)DrPepsidew Wrote: Does it matter? He used right-spin defense, I wasn't attacking you. Just saying that a right spin defense combo was used in tournament play today, no biggie
I know. I'm saying that there hasn't been much of it lately. That's only one combo.
Notice in my previous post I said not much, not that nobody has used it.
![[Image: f759d58.gif]](https://i.imgsafe.org/f759d58.gif)
![[Image: rcFJUxo.png]](https://i.imgur.com/rcFJUxo.png)
By the way, everyone against CS should remember that just because you own a certain type of CS that might not work for you does not mean that the other types also do not.
Thank YOU for posting that, I feel like if I would have said it, people would disregard it.
Like most arguments though, that could potentially go the other way as well, as we've seen in the discussion of whether or not Scythe is overpowered (some say it's dominating Limited, while most of us with different molds just can't see it). It will take a great deal of tests from a range of molds in order to have a strong basis for whether or not the performance tip is really on the same level, defense wise, as the pure rubber ones.
![[Image: jFAMV2B.png]](https://i.imgur.com/jFAMV2B.png)
CS has existed for years and its reputation is already done, while that Hasbro Scythe thing came out of two or three people only and it died rather quickly. Plus, I think it is a lot easier to get a good 'mould' of CS than it is to get an apparent 'godly' Hasbro Scythe that dominates everything.
CS has definitely had a reputation as top tier for a while, but the question is really whether or not it is still such. Time & tests will tell; I know for a fact that my mold isn't one of the better ones, but I'm interested to see to what extent.
As for Metal Fury Scythe, the whole discussion came up soon after Limited was created. While it's been out for a while it was never really viable before & thus has only had a limited amount of testing (no pun intended).
As for Metal Fury Scythe, the whole discussion came up soon after Limited was created. While it's been out for a while it was never really viable before & thus has only had a limited amount of testing (no pun intended).
Well while we're on the topic of CS mold differences/behaviors, I'll point out that my CS is from Hasbro's Ray Striker, and was originally more aggressive, but it eventually wore down over time (I can post pictures if anyone questions its legality). Now it will do the counterattack thing in the picture I made.
Actually, Beywiki doesn't say anything about CS molds, is it just natural variance or were actual mold differences discovered? As far as I know Scythe was never confirmed to have multiple molds, but no one disproved the theory either. Since product codes don't mean anything, my guess is that it's natural variance for Scythe's case.
Actually, Beywiki doesn't say anything about CS molds, is it just natural variance or were actual mold differences discovered? As far as I know Scythe was never confirmed to have multiple molds, but no one disproved the theory either. Since product codes don't mean anything, my guess is that it's natural variance for Scythe's case.
It's wierd though, since the difference between the ones with different product codes were pretty obvious.
(Jul. 28, 2014 4:34 AM)DRANZER KING Wrote: It's wierd though, since the difference between the ones with different product codes were pretty obvious.
Were they physical differences, or just differences in performance? Unless I missed something no one's found a physical difference between the Scythes, and while the really good ones were generally AA2, some people got bad results with AA2s or good results with other product codes, and IIRC it had more to do with weight than anything else.
And before anyone says weight difference = mold difference, it doesn't. Parts like Phantom and Duo, as well as a lot of Clear Wheels can vary within like several grams. For example, Kerbecs is listed at 3.3 grams while none of Ingulit's Kerbecs break 3 grams. His Phantom only weighs about 42 grams while Beywiki has it at 44.5. Phantom and Kerbecs do not have mold differences.
(Jul. 28, 2014 4:11 AM)Wombat Wrote: Well while we're on the topic of CS mold differences/behaviors, I'll point out that my CS is from Hasbro's Ray Striker, and was originally more aggressive, but it eventually wore down over time (I can post pictures if anyone questions its legality). Now it will do the counterattack thing in the picture I made.
Actually, Beywiki doesn't say anything about CS molds, is it just natural variance or were actual mold differences discovered? As far as I know Scythe was never confirmed to have multiple molds, but no one disproved the theory either. Since product codes don't mean anything, my guess is that it's natural variance for Scythe's case.
My CS is from Ray Striker Metal Masters as well, before they started reinforcing tips.
Mine is just a little bit worn. It's odd, I've seen some that barely have any rubber; yet I used that Bey ever since the day I got it. The Ray wheel is smooth as hell, so it's obviously worn. I just don't know why the rubber never wears.
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There are scythe Weight differences . Yes, the performance differences seem pretty noticeable.
(Jul. 27, 2014 11:53 PM)Tʀɪ Wrote: I think the only reasoning I have seen CS should go is "it can't handle today's attackers" without testing to back up that statement, so it really deserves a spot still.
Um... did you not just see the testing posted on the last page? 20% is not "handling" an Attack type (and that was Flash - think about Wyvang).
Quote:It works well on most heights of defenders, unlike RB and RSF which really need specific heights to show the best pitential. Even RDF falls in with the latter as well since it is really only used with BD145. CS can easily be launched aggressively just like RSF and RDF. It can be launched calmly as well, even easier than RDF and RSF which can help. It is basically a combination of RSF anf RS with the added stamina synchrome defenders desperately need.
I... really don't know what you're talking about. RDF, RB, and RSF can all be used on both E230 and BD145 (they've all ben top-tier in both ever since Variares and Meteo were removed), and from my experience, they're all superior to CS anyway.
Synchrom Defenders don't desperately need Stamina. In face, from my experience, Killerken and Genbull are both worse off with CS than Revizer is relative to RDF, and neither of those need the Stamina either.
I'm not saying that CS is a bad Bottom - it's not. It's great, but classifying it as a pure Defense part isn't really accurate IMO.
DrPepsidew's testing does interest me, though. We need reproductions. It seems to contradict the testing done over the last 3 years (including the information we have from the Beywiki), so we'd need more results.
EDIT: Wait, Revizer isn't among the best?
Um, hate to burst your bubble, but its Defense is more solid than any other Wheel available (except arguably Genbull, but still), and while Girago does have low recoil for an aggressively designed wheel, I still get better results with Revizer.
Not that Girago isn't a worthy candidate, but Revizer certainly isn't a dud (unless it's heavily worn, to the point where the metal wing-like structures are curved inward, which may be your problem now that I think about it, considering how often you use Defense).
![[Image: 68vfxj.jpg]](https://oi57.tinypic.com/68vfxj.jpg)
Thought I should post this here too, seeing as this is almost certainly a direct argument to TBD's thread.
(Aug. 01, 2014 2:49 AM)Wombat Wrote: I did some comparisons today. Forgot RDF but I'll have it up tomorrow. Keep in mind that I suck with Attack, and my Wyvang has probably lost its edge by now. But they should at least be proportional, right?EDIT: Thanks for catching that Echizen.
Zirago Wyvang H145R2F vs. MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145RSF
Wyvang: 4 wins (all KO)
Genbull: 16 wins (10 OS, 6 KO)
1 tie redone
Genbull win rate: 80%
I aggressive launched RSF. The only times Wyvang got the KOs was when it hit Genbull in the right place at the right time, so a direct hit right near the exit.
Zirago Wyvang H145R2F vs. MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145RB
Wyvang: 9 wins (all KO)
Genbull: 11 wins (10 OS, 1 KO)
4 ties redone
Genbull win rate: 55%
These two tended to double-KO a lot. RB, while not as aggressive as RSF, skips the Tornado Ridge more easily, so it's easier for Wyvang to get the right-place-right-time hit.
Zirago Wyvang H145R2F vs. MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145CS
Wyvang: 6 wins (all KO)
Genbull: 14 wins (11 OS, 3 KO)
Genbull win rate: 70%
See picture above.
So while I don't agree about removing CS or RSF, I can see where you're coming from about RF Defense, about how Defense needs to be more mobile now to have some momentum to deal with Attack.
Just wanted to let you know; you wrote H145RSF in the first testings.
Strange to see the supposed worst tips getting the better results than one of the "better" ones, haha. Nice tests.
Strange to see the supposed worst tips getting the better results than one of the "better" ones, haha. Nice tests.
Yeah, it isn't among the best. Test it TBD, try to get rid of that bias?
See, CS is still a good tip. I'm not saying it's better, just that it needs to stay.
See, CS is still a good tip. I'm not saying it's better, just that it needs to stay.
I disagree. In both of our testing, it still lost (it only hit 15% and 20% in your testing; that's not a winning score). Wombat's testing has confirmed what I expected to see relative to RSF, and in my testing, a worn RDF ran miles ahead of a prime CS, and that was against Flash, where the difference is the least prominent.
I have tested it. Revizer whips Girago in a Defensive contest for me (again, your Revizer has to be pretty new - if its too worn, the metal edges will actually curve in and deform the circular shape of the wheel, which will cause recoil; at that point, Girago is probably better, but nobody should be using a wheel that worn).
Testing:
Benchmark:
MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang H145R2F vs. MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145CS
Prime R2F, slightly used CS. Revizer launched first on all launches. Top Wyvang calm mold, bottom Wyvang aggressive mold
Revizer: wins, 10/20 (9 OS, 1 KO)
Wyvang: wins, 10/20 (1 OS, 9 KO)
MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145CS win rate: 50%
I had to use CS for this, because I just could not KO Revizer RDF to save my life (even with a worn RDF that had almost no Defense left to offer) - my launch is really weak today, and my launcher seems to be skipping some. I'm way behind on sleep (I actually only got up an hour ago, haha). I only got like half the power out of Wyvang I can usually get. Oh well.
MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang H145R2F vs. MSF-H Girago Girago BD145CS
Prime R2F, slightly used CS. Girago launched first on all launches. Top Wyvang calm mold, bottom Wyvang aggressive mold
Girago: wins, 22/25 (19 KO, 3 OS)
Wyvang: wins, 3/25 (2 KO, 1 OS)
MSF-H Girago Girago BD145CS win rate: 12%
Hm... well I'll be.
I'd like to especially point out that Girago was only able to pull off one OS, and that, when Girago KOed Wyvang those two times, it was due to a massive wall save that literally knocked Girago up above the stadium wall. What disturbed me was that Wyvang was able to out-spin by just beating the thing around (and the late-game KOs... blech).
Girago totally doesn't work for me. I don't know why we get such different results, but they're... definitely different to say the least.
I have tested it. Revizer whips Girago in a Defensive contest for me (again, your Revizer has to be pretty new - if its too worn, the metal edges will actually curve in and deform the circular shape of the wheel, which will cause recoil; at that point, Girago is probably better, but nobody should be using a wheel that worn).
Testing:
Benchmark:
MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang H145R2F vs. MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145CS
Prime R2F, slightly used CS. Revizer launched first on all launches. Top Wyvang calm mold, bottom Wyvang aggressive mold
Revizer: wins, 10/20 (9 OS, 1 KO)
Wyvang: wins, 10/20 (1 OS, 9 KO)
MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145CS win rate: 50%
I had to use CS for this, because I just could not KO Revizer RDF to save my life (even with a worn RDF that had almost no Defense left to offer) - my launch is really weak today, and my launcher seems to be skipping some. I'm way behind on sleep (I actually only got up an hour ago, haha). I only got like half the power out of Wyvang I can usually get. Oh well.
MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang H145R2F vs. MSF-H Girago Girago BD145CS
Prime R2F, slightly used CS. Girago launched first on all launches. Top Wyvang calm mold, bottom Wyvang aggressive mold
Girago: wins, 22/25 (19 KO, 3 OS)
Wyvang: wins, 3/25 (2 KO, 1 OS)
MSF-H Girago Girago BD145CS win rate: 12%
Hm... well I'll be.
I'd like to especially point out that Girago was only able to pull off one OS, and that, when Girago KOed Wyvang those two times, it was due to a massive wall save that literally knocked Girago up above the stadium wall. What disturbed me was that Wyvang was able to out-spin by just beating the thing around (and the late-game KOs... blech).
Girago totally doesn't work for me. I don't know why we get such different results, but they're... definitely different to say the least.
Hey, because they're different and your name is in italics, that doesn't mean you're right.
Also, don't appreciate the condescending tone you have. Re-read the scores TBD XD I think you missed something.
I'll do the tests above when I get back from my grandmother's house, I don't have H145, would any other track satisfy you?
Also, don't appreciate the condescending tone you have. Re-read the scores TBD XD I think you missed something.
I'll do the tests above when I get back from my grandmother's house, I don't have H145, would any other track satisfy you?
I will overlook your condescending tone, if you heed the severity of mine.
If anyone gets that quote, kudos to you, haha.
But on a serious note, while I'm for keeping CS, it doesn't help either sides only a few different people have tested, considering the results seem to be different. The more people testing, the better- I'll try to do some later this weekend, myself.
If anyone gets that quote, kudos to you, haha.
But on a serious note, while I'm for keeping CS, it doesn't help either sides only a few different people have tested, considering the results seem to be different. The more people testing, the better- I'll try to do some later this weekend, myself.
![[Image: 9ff5d708-ada9-4d9e-a353-d60f3c2fc6a2_zpsf8dc7f76.jpg]](http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/Bakubey13/media/9ff5d708-ada9-4d9e-a353-d60f3c2fc6a2_zpsf8dc7f76.jpg.html)
Transformers right?
And again, I'm not saying it's better, but it has it's uses.
And again, I'm not saying it's better, but it has it's uses.
(Aug. 01, 2014 7:40 PM)DrPepsidew Wrote: Hey, because they're different and your name is in italics, that doesn't mean you're right.
Also, don't appreciate the condescending tone you have. Re-read the scores TBD XD I think you missed something.
I'll do the tests above when I get back from my grandmother's house, I don't have H145, would any other track satisfy you?
Whoah, when did I say I was right because I have an italic username? I never said that (if I did, somebody point it out and I will immediately delete it and replace it with an apology - that is an unfitting way to exploit a promotion, and I'd be ashamed to suggest such a thing).
Your testing is just as relevant as mine is; but mine is also just as relevant as yours, which means we have a contradiction (and it also may help slightly that I provided a benchmark with Revizer, the wheel we were comparing to Girago, since it makes the comparison... well, a comparison).
I didn't mean to sound condescending (I have trouble identifying that kind of tone sometimes, though, and just today Leon19 revealed to me that my rudeness detector is broken, lol) - but, just to be fair, (and not to suggest I'm any better, but just a a little heads-up), you're not exactly being the most humble user here either. I think we both need to chill a little.
Anywho, I think you're missing my point here. I am definitely not for removing CS from the tier list. I am, for instance, in favor of testing E230CS on Girago and Genbull and listing those customs as Balance along with MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145CS, right along side the already top-tier {MSF-H} Genbull Genbull TH170/SR200 CS (because they really do work pretty darn well). I would just like to remove CS from the Defense section of the tier list, because it doesn't strike me as a competitive Bottom if you're going for a custom with pure Defense (which I think combos in the Defense section should represent).
#CSFTW
#ButNotForPureDefense
Just bought another Ray Unicorno (for $3...yay!). When it arrives, I can do some testing & compare between the new CS and my old one.
I think CS should stay its a great attack tip a great stamina tip and great defense tip. Also I just found a way to use the recoil of the rock wheel to my advantage I made a Rock orso RWCS, its made to take hits the RW takes a lot of the sting away but the bey still recoils making the rubber part of CS touch the slope of the stadium causing friction and making the bey aggressive thus utilizing the rock wheels smash attack but keeping high stamina and staying a defense type or you could call it a balance type!
Look at the last post date before posting 
RF defense is basically the answer to this thread. It has the mobility of CS but much more raw Defense.
RF defense is basically the answer to this thread. It has the mobility of CS but much more raw Defense.