Hey guys! 
I was thinking about this really, really hard the other day, and I just couldn't come to a solid conclusion on exactly what outlines a competitive defender. Obviously defenders must be able to counter competitive attack types; but wait, don't Wyvang and Balro both show winning numbers against BD145 defenders?
The attack meta has progressed at an unbelievable rate since the release of Flash, producing attackers that could actually take down defense types with ease. In the times of Variares, Blitz, Fang, and Beat, the system was balanced. Conventional defense countered attack. However, nowadays we have attackers hitting up to 80% against conventional BD145 defense. This makes you wonder why exactly using such a variation of custom would be a good idea, and yet they are all over the competitive list and people revere them as excellent defenders!
While stationary BD145 defense can be effective in a tournament situation (where different factors can take over, IE not being able to redo a horrendous mis-launch or faulty self-KO's, adrenaline, and/or the presence of the opponent's launcher over the stadium), in my humble opinion the test results show they are quite risky compared to other options, such as E230 defense and anti-attack, both of which can hit around 70% against most any attacker with ease. However, these can come with other disadvantages, such as the risk of self-KO, loss against left-spin attackers, risk of possible loss by out-spin against certain attackers, etc.
Pros and cons of different variations of attack counters:
Elevator 230 (boost mode):
Pros:
Cons:
Boost Disk 145:
Pros:
Cons:
85:
Pros:
Cons:
Anti-Attack:
Pros:
Cons:
From this list of the most effective counters to attack types available, you can see that each has their advantages and disadvantages. However, test results show that overall BD145 defense is likely the most ineffective form of defender out there. In my opinion, and as I think the test results clearly show, anti-attack (IE MSF-L Girago Girago BD145RF, ____ Dragooon BD145RF/R2F/LRF) seems to be the most effective choice against most defenders (this may seem irrelevant to the subject at hand, but it'll come up later).
E230 defense is solidly effective against most things, so that really doesn't need any scrutiny if the test results we have are accurate. I'm mostly focused on the subject of BD145 defense.
In all honesty, a Defense type that loses to an Attack type 80% of the time wouldn't be the greatest option in a tournament scenario. The fact that these customs are still top-tier is arguably acceptable, or arguably unacceptable depending on what your view is on Defense. Of course, attackers aren't always gonna hit 80% agianst BD145, but tests results show that conventional attackers don't have too much of a problem taking them down. The advantages I honestly see in using BD145 defense is that BD145RDF will usually fair well against/as a spin-equalizer(s) (thus the use of combos like MSF-H Reviser/Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF), and some have an extraordinary ability to KO stamina types while still maintaining a viable level of defense (Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF [balance, but serves a a decent example]). These are great things to be able to do, but in the light of the numbers we're seeing against attack I think these customs warrant a bit of scrutiny.
The Potential of RF-based Defense:
Now, the reason Anti-Attackers using BD145 work so well, is because they use an aggressive movement pattern to neutralize the Attack type's advantage of speed, using BD145 to create an optimal center of gravity and heavier weight along with RF/R2F's wider surface area to produce higher stability than their opponent.
We usually use semi-aggressive wheels on top-tier Anti-Attack customs to produce viable smash, thus eliminating Defense's weakness; Stamina. Now, this can create a risk. Using higher smash usually means higher recoil, which means you have more of a risk of KO against a high-powered attack type. To apply an aggressive bottom to a Defender would be similar to this concept, eliminating both the advantage of smash against stamina types and the disadvantage of higher recoil.
As you can see, by switching to RF we have:
Now, this is not a new idea. Anti-Attack has always been popular among bladers mostly because of its ability to deal with Stamina types, not its high win rates against Attack types in general. However, there have been select combos in the past using an aggressive movement pattern to counter Attack without this unique advantage. In fact, the combo you see above has been discussed before. So have MF-H Libra/Earth Bull GB145RF. These combos are not anti-attackers. Anti-attack is classified under balance, because is is designed to counter Attack types while still providing attributes that allow it to take down other types of beyblades besides Attack.
RF defense is not a form of Anti-Attack. It is a form of Defense that just so happens to use a flat rubber bottom, rather than the conventional defense bottoms. I really think, while BD145 Defense is having a hard time right now, this is a way we can widen its range of application and hopefully see a boost in performance
Now, here's my question... I know there are some advanced members who acknowledge the effectiveness of RF-based Defenders, and I would like to know exactly why conventional RB/RDF/RSF/CS - based BD145 Defense types are listed as top-tier, and these variations of customs, seemingly far, far superior as they are to conventional stationary BD145 defense, are no longer considered competitive.
Now, IF Several other users come up with results consistent with mine (I have gotten absolutely amazing results with RF-based Defense), I think we need to change up the BD145 defense section of the competitive list a bit. Should we:
A) Keep what we've got on the tier-list and continue to outline conventional BD145 Defense as the only competitive defensive option for mid-height customs,
B) Undergo some testing with Synchrom RF-based defenders and make an attempt to confirm them as competitive, and keep the conventional defenders as well,
C) If RF-based Defense proves to be successful for everyone, remove all conventional BD145RDF/RB/RSF/CS based defenders and replace them with RF-based BD145 Defense types,
D) Keep a portion of the conventional BD145 combos, and replace what we don't keep with RF-Based Defense.
E) Scratch all BD145 defense from the tier-list, as other options have proven more effective against most things.
The point of this thread is to determine whether or not the mid-height defense section of the tier-list needs any change, and, if so, what types of changes need to be made.
Post your thoughts and TESTS!!! I'd like to see a couple posts from advanced members here...
I was thinking about this really, really hard the other day, and I just couldn't come to a solid conclusion on exactly what outlines a competitive defender. Obviously defenders must be able to counter competitive attack types; but wait, don't Wyvang and Balro both show winning numbers against BD145 defenders?
The attack meta has progressed at an unbelievable rate since the release of Flash, producing attackers that could actually take down defense types with ease. In the times of Variares, Blitz, Fang, and Beat, the system was balanced. Conventional defense countered attack. However, nowadays we have attackers hitting up to 80% against conventional BD145 defense. This makes you wonder why exactly using such a variation of custom would be a good idea, and yet they are all over the competitive list and people revere them as excellent defenders!
While stationary BD145 defense can be effective in a tournament situation (where different factors can take over, IE not being able to redo a horrendous mis-launch or faulty self-KO's, adrenaline, and/or the presence of the opponent's launcher over the stadium), in my humble opinion the test results show they are quite risky compared to other options, such as E230 defense and anti-attack, both of which can hit around 70% against most any attacker with ease. However, these can come with other disadvantages, such as the risk of self-KO, loss against left-spin attackers, risk of possible loss by out-spin against certain attackers, etc.
Pros and cons of different variations of attack counters:
Elevator 230 (boost mode):
Pros:
- Excellent defense against low/mid height right-spin attackers (excluding Balro)
- Potential to OS shorter defenders via destabilization
Cons:
- Faulty balance compared to other options
- Serious disadvantagous height against left-spin attackers
Boost Disk 145:
Pros:
- Very sable in the face of constant impact
- Potential to OS left-spin attackers
- Potential to KO under some circumstances
Cons:
- Overall significantly lower win rates against conventional attack
- Potential to lose by OS to other forms of defense/anti-attack
85:
Pros:
- Handles shock extremely well in most cases
- Extremely difficult to make metal-to-metal contact with
Cons:
- Very prone to force smash
- Can only be used effectively with Scythe
- Very vulnerable to scraping
- Loses badly to opposite-spin opponents
Anti-Attack:
Pros:
- Extremely high win rates against nearly all forms of attack
- Very stable in the face of constant impact
- Ability to consistently KO stamina
Cons:
- Risk of self-KO
- Higher recoil than conventional defenders, causing risk of KO when in stationary/concentrated movement pattern
From this list of the most effective counters to attack types available, you can see that each has their advantages and disadvantages. However, test results show that overall BD145 defense is likely the most ineffective form of defender out there. In my opinion, and as I think the test results clearly show, anti-attack (IE MSF-L Girago Girago BD145RF, ____ Dragooon BD145RF/R2F/LRF) seems to be the most effective choice against most defenders (this may seem irrelevant to the subject at hand, but it'll come up later).
E230 defense is solidly effective against most things, so that really doesn't need any scrutiny if the test results we have are accurate. I'm mostly focused on the subject of BD145 defense.
Quote:MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RB vs. MF-H Flash Orion S130R2F
Duo launched first on all launches.
Duo: wins, 4/20 (3 OS, 1 KO)
Flash: wins, 16/20 (14 KO, 2 OS)
MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RB win rate: 20%
In all honesty, a Defense type that loses to an Attack type 80% of the time wouldn't be the greatest option in a tournament scenario. The fact that these customs are still top-tier is arguably acceptable, or arguably unacceptable depending on what your view is on Defense. Of course, attackers aren't always gonna hit 80% agianst BD145, but tests results show that conventional attackers don't have too much of a problem taking them down. The advantages I honestly see in using BD145 defense is that BD145RDF will usually fair well against/as a spin-equalizer(s) (thus the use of combos like MSF-H Reviser/Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF), and some have an extraordinary ability to KO stamina types while still maintaining a viable level of defense (Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF [balance, but serves a a decent example]). These are great things to be able to do, but in the light of the numbers we're seeing against attack I think these customs warrant a bit of scrutiny.
The Potential of RF-based Defense:
Now, the reason Anti-Attackers using BD145 work so well, is because they use an aggressive movement pattern to neutralize the Attack type's advantage of speed, using BD145 to create an optimal center of gravity and heavier weight along with RF/R2F's wider surface area to produce higher stability than their opponent.
We usually use semi-aggressive wheels on top-tier Anti-Attack customs to produce viable smash, thus eliminating Defense's weakness; Stamina. Now, this can create a risk. Using higher smash usually means higher recoil, which means you have more of a risk of KO against a high-powered attack type. To apply an aggressive bottom to a Defender would be similar to this concept, eliminating both the advantage of smash against stamina types and the disadvantage of higher recoil.
Quote:MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RF vs. MF-H Flash Orion S130R2F
Duo launched first on all launches.
Duo: wins, 15/20 (7 KO, 8 OS)
Flash: wins, 5/20 (All KO)
MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RF win rate: 75%
As you can see, by switching to RF we have:
- Significantly increased our range of movement
- Significantly increased our speed
- Increased our surface area between the bottom of the stadium floor (factoring to higher traction and stability)
- Nearly quadrupled our original win rate
Now, this is not a new idea. Anti-Attack has always been popular among bladers mostly because of its ability to deal with Stamina types, not its high win rates against Attack types in general. However, there have been select combos in the past using an aggressive movement pattern to counter Attack without this unique advantage. In fact, the combo you see above has been discussed before. So have MF-H Libra/Earth Bull GB145RF. These combos are not anti-attackers. Anti-attack is classified under balance, because is is designed to counter Attack types while still providing attributes that allow it to take down other types of beyblades besides Attack.
RF defense is not a form of Anti-Attack. It is a form of Defense that just so happens to use a flat rubber bottom, rather than the conventional defense bottoms. I really think, while BD145 Defense is having a hard time right now, this is a way we can widen its range of application and hopefully see a boost in performance
Now, here's my question... I know there are some advanced members who acknowledge the effectiveness of RF-based Defenders, and I would like to know exactly why conventional RB/RDF/RSF/CS - based BD145 Defense types are listed as top-tier, and these variations of customs, seemingly far, far superior as they are to conventional stationary BD145 defense, are no longer considered competitive.
Now, IF Several other users come up with results consistent with mine (I have gotten absolutely amazing results with RF-based Defense), I think we need to change up the BD145 defense section of the competitive list a bit. Should we:
A) Keep what we've got on the tier-list and continue to outline conventional BD145 Defense as the only competitive defensive option for mid-height customs,
B) Undergo some testing with Synchrom RF-based defenders and make an attempt to confirm them as competitive, and keep the conventional defenders as well,
C) If RF-based Defense proves to be successful for everyone, remove all conventional BD145RDF/RB/RSF/CS based defenders and replace them with RF-based BD145 Defense types,
D) Keep a portion of the conventional BD145 combos, and replace what we don't keep with RF-Based Defense.
E) Scratch all BD145 defense from the tier-list, as other options have proven more effective against most things.
The point of this thread is to determine whether or not the mid-height defense section of the tier-list needs any change, and, if so, what types of changes need to be made.
Post your thoughts and TESTS!!!
I'd like to see a couple posts from advanced members here...
![[Image: 68vfxj.jpg]](https://oi57.tinypic.com/68vfxj.jpg)
![[Image: shining_sig.jpg]](https://s25.postimg.org/ni454yfgv/shining_sig.jpg)
![[Image: titi_sig.png]](https://box44.fr/beyblade/sig/titi_sig.png)
![[Image: AqKPC.jpg]](https://i.imgur.com/AqKPC.jpg)
That's why I said why is it "no longer" considered competitive. Given all the things I've seen from RF-Based Defense, I see no reason why it shouldn't be. If you're not using left-spin, IMO it's flat out better against conventional Attack than almost anything else.
![[Image: 9ff5d708-ada9-4d9e-a353-d60f3c2fc6a2_zpsf8dc7f76.jpg]](http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/Bakubey13/media/9ff5d708-ada9-4d9e-a353-d60f3c2fc6a2_zpsf8dc7f76.jpg.html)
![[Image: f759d58.gif]](https://i.imgsafe.org/f759d58.gif)
![[Image: rcFJUxo.png]](https://i.imgur.com/rcFJUxo.png)
![[Image: Bringitoncopy_zps3e4dcf93.png]](https://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e270/magistoraj/Bringitoncopy_zps3e4dcf93.png)
![[Image: london_zpsac5c1dfa.png]](https://i806.photobucket.com/albums/yy347/m00109weee/london_zpsac5c1dfa.png)
