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+---- Thread: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense (/Thread-The-Issue-of-BD145-Defense-and-the-Potential-of-RF-based-Defense)
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The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - [)ragon - Oct. 24, 2013
Hey guys!
I was thinking about this really, really hard the other day, and I just couldn't come to a solid conclusion on exactly what outlines a competitive defender. Obviously defenders must be able to counter competitive attack types; but wait, don't Wyvang and Balro both show winning numbers against BD145 defenders?
The attack meta has progressed at an unbelievable rate since the release of Flash, producing attackers that could actually take down defense types with ease. In the times of Variares, Blitz, Fang, and Beat, the system was balanced. Conventional defense countered attack. However, nowadays we have attackers hitting up to 80% against conventional BD145 defense. This makes you wonder why exactly using such a variation of custom would be a good idea, and yet they are all over the competitive list and people revere them as excellent defenders!
While stationary BD145 defense can be effective in a tournament situation (where different factors can take over, IE not being able to redo a horrendous mis-launch or faulty self-KO's, adrenaline, and/or the presence of the opponent's launcher over the stadium), in my humble opinion the test results show they are quite risky compared to other options, such as E230 defense and anti-attack, both of which can hit around 70% against most any attacker with ease. However, these can come with other disadvantages, such as the risk of self-KO, loss against left-spin attackers, risk of possible loss by out-spin against certain attackers, etc.
Pros and cons of different variations of attack counters:
Elevator 230 (boost mode):
Pros:
- Excellent defense against low/mid height right-spin attackers (excluding Balro)
- Potential to OS shorter defenders via destabilization
Cons:
- Faulty balance compared to other options
- Serious disadvantagous height against left-spin attackers
Boost Disk 145:
Pros:
- Very sable in the face of constant impact
- Potential to OS left-spin attackers
- Potential to KO under some circumstances
Cons:
- Overall significantly lower win rates against conventional attack
- Potential to lose by OS to other forms of defense/anti-attack
85:
Pros:
- Handles shock extremely well in most cases
- Extremely difficult to make metal-to-metal contact with
Cons:
- Very prone to force smash
- Can only be used effectively with Scythe
- Very vulnerable to scraping
- Loses badly to opposite-spin opponents
Anti-Attack:
Pros:
- Extremely high win rates against nearly all forms of attack
- Very stable in the face of constant impact
- Ability to consistently KO stamina
Cons:
- Risk of self-KO
- Higher recoil than conventional defenders, causing risk of KO when in stationary/concentrated movement pattern
From this list of the most effective counters to attack types available, you can see that each has their advantages and disadvantages. However, test results show that overall BD145 defense is likely the most ineffective form of defender out there. In my opinion, and as I think the test results clearly show, anti-attack (IE MSF-L Girago Girago BD145RF, ____ Dragooon BD145RF/R2F/LRF) seems to be the most effective choice against most defenders (this may seem irrelevant to the subject at hand, but it'll come up later).
E230 defense is solidly effective against most things, so that really doesn't need any scrutiny if the test results we have are accurate. I'm mostly focused on the subject of BD145 defense.
Quote:MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RB vs. MF-H Flash Orion S130R2F
Duo launched first on all launches.
Duo: wins, 4/20 (3 OS, 1 KO)
Flash: wins, 16/20 (14 KO, 2 OS)
MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RB win rate: 20%
In all honesty, a Defense type that loses to an Attack type 80% of the time wouldn't be the greatest option in a tournament scenario. The fact that these customs are still top-tier is arguably acceptable, or arguably unacceptable depending on what your view is on Defense. Of course, attackers aren't always gonna hit 80% agianst BD145, but tests results show that conventional attackers don't have too much of a problem taking them down. The advantages I honestly see in using BD145 defense is that BD145RDF will usually fair well against/as a spin-equalizer(s) (thus the use of combos like MSF-H Reviser/Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF), and some have an extraordinary ability to KO stamina types while still maintaining a viable level of defense (Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF [balance, but serves a a decent example]). These are great things to be able to do, but in the light of the numbers we're seeing against attack I think these customs warrant a bit of scrutiny.
The Potential of RF-based Defense:
Now, the reason Anti-Attackers using BD145 work so well, is because they use an aggressive movement pattern to neutralize the Attack type's advantage of speed, using BD145 to create an optimal center of gravity and heavier weight along with RF/R2F's wider surface area to produce higher stability than their opponent.
We usually use semi-aggressive wheels on top-tier Anti-Attack customs to produce viable smash, thus eliminating Defense's weakness; Stamina. Now, this can create a risk. Using higher smash usually means higher recoil, which means you have more of a risk of KO against a high-powered attack type. To apply an aggressive bottom to a Defender would be similar to this concept, eliminating both the advantage of smash against stamina types and the disadvantage of higher recoil.
Quote:MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RF vs. MF-H Flash Orion S130R2F
Duo launched first on all launches.
Duo: wins, 15/20 (7 KO, 8 OS)
Flash: wins, 5/20 (All KO)
MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RF win rate: 75%
As you can see, by switching to RF we have:
- Significantly increased our range of movement
- Significantly increased our speed
- Increased our surface area between the bottom of the stadium floor (factoring to higher traction and stability)
- Nearly quadrupled our original win rate
Now, this is not a new idea. Anti-Attack has always been popular among bladers mostly because of its ability to deal with Stamina types, not its high win rates against Attack types in general. However, there have been select combos in the past using an aggressive movement pattern to counter Attack without this unique advantage. In fact, the combo you see above has been discussed before. So have MF-H Libra/Earth Bull GB145RF. These combos are not anti-attackers. Anti-attack is classified under balance, because is is designed to counter Attack types while still providing attributes that allow it to take down other types of beyblades besides Attack.
RF defense is not a form of Anti-Attack. It is a form of Defense that just so happens to use a flat rubber bottom, rather than the conventional defense bottoms. I really think, while BD145 Defense is having a hard time right now, this is a way we can widen its range of application and hopefully see a boost in performance
Now, here's my question... I know there are some advanced members who acknowledge the effectiveness of RF-based Defenders, and I would like to know exactly why conventional RB/RDF/RSF/CS - based BD145 Defense types are listed as top-tier, and these variations of customs, seemingly far, far superior as they are to conventional stationary BD145 defense, are no longer considered competitive.
Now, IF Several other users come up with results consistent with mine (I have gotten absolutely amazing results with RF-based Defense), I think we need to change up the BD145 defense section of the competitive list a bit. Should we:
A) Keep what we've got on the tier-list and continue to outline conventional BD145 Defense as the only competitive defensive option for mid-height customs,
B) Undergo some testing with Synchrom RF-based defenders and make an attempt to confirm them as competitive, and keep the conventional defenders as well,
C) If RF-based Defense proves to be successful for everyone, remove all conventional BD145RDF/RB/RSF/CS based defenders and replace them with RF-based BD145 Defense types,
D) Keep a portion of the conventional BD145 combos, and replace what we don't keep with RF-Based Defense.
E) Scratch all BD145 defense from the tier-list, as other options have proven more effective against most things.
The point of this thread is to determine whether or not the mid-height defense section of the tier-list needs any change, and, if so, what types of changes need to be made.
Post your thoughts and TESTS!!!
I'd like to see a couple posts from advanced members here...
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - Snoop Dog MS - Oct. 24, 2013
So now you get where I'm getting at. I love Duo BD145RF because it screams potential. That's why I wanted it on the tier list.
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - Kaneki - Oct. 24, 2013
Fake tests (Click to View)
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - Snoop Dog MS - Oct. 24, 2013
Here is something I'm not surprised about at all.
Duo Cygnus BD145RF vs MSF Wyvang Wyvang W145R2F
Duo always launched first. RF is in prime condition. R2F is in prime condition
Duo wins: 10/10(9 OS, 1 KO)
Wyvang wins: 0/10
Duo Win Rate: 100%
I just did 10 because, I mean duh.
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - Infinity Lazer - Oct. 24, 2013
well that not suprising at all since Wyvang Wyvang does horrible against plain Duo defence XD anyway could you maybe test that Wyvang combo against MF-H Duo Cygnus BD145RDF/CS/RB
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - Snoop Dog MS - Oct. 24, 2013
I'll test this against Flash, and it'll still be an awesome Win Rate. Although, it'll be tomorrow.
EDIT: Ingulit isn't really a fan of RF-based Defense btw.
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - Kaneki - Oct. 24, 2013
Fake tests (Click to View)
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - Dark_Mousy - Oct. 24, 2013
Actually at one point BD145 RF was on the Tier list for defense. it was a big debate in the advanced forum at one point.
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - Sniper - Oct. 24, 2013
Both scythe and wing effectively utilize the 85 spin track for defense.
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - RagerBlade - Oct. 24, 2013
(Oct. 24, 2013 11:43 AM)Sniperâ„¢ Wrote: Both scythe and wing effectively utilize the 85 spin track for defense.Scythe is better in my opinion as you don't see Wing as Top Tier.
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - [)ragon - Oct. 24, 2013
(Oct. 24, 2013 4:29 AM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: Actually at one point BD145 RF was on the Tier list for defense. it was a big debate in the advanced forum at one point.
I know.
That's why I said why is it "no longer" considered competitive. Given all the things I've seen from RF-Based Defense, I see no reason why it shouldn't be. If you're not using left-spin, IMO it's flat out better against conventional Attack than almost anything else.EDIT: I'm sorry, it wasn't Ingulit. XD It was th!nk.
Anyway, the reason stated for removing RF-based Defense was simply because anti-attack produced the same results, and yet was more versatile against other things, and, therefore, would be a better option as and aggressive counter towards attack types.
But there are two thing wrong with this:
1. th!nk actually brought this up at one point (like a really long time ago XD), Defense and Anti-attack are different things. They aren't comparable. They exist as two variations of customs to counter attack. Therefore, IMO we shouldn't totally alter Defensive customs based on beyblades from another category.
2. This relates the the first point. If BD145RF Defense is so outclassed by anti-attack, then why is conventional BD145 Defense not removed for the same reason. Both RF-based Defense and Anti-attack pull much higher numbers for the most part, and from a versatility standpoint conventional Defense gets a big fat zero.
I don't see why you remove one defender from the list for one reason, but that same reason apparently doesn't apply to another defender over here. It just doesn't make sense.
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - ShinobuXD - Oct. 24, 2013
Well, I always considered BD145 subpar to E230. I think its just used since IMO it is the best benchmark, we know how stuff fares against it.
Anyways, you've got a fairly large problem here: you state BD145 defense should be removed, but then who's to say Wyvang is the best for attack? Wouldn't Balro be, then? But wait.... if Balro is best for attack, then who's to say E230 is best for defense? You see, then we're just stuck in a never ending cycle...
....not to mention BD145 does significantly better against Wyvang Dragooon SA165 R2F.
As for RF defense, I would say anti-attack is basically just a better version of it.
EDIT: IMO Duo BD145 RF is dumb, since one of the best things about Duo is it can actually beat other defenders.
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - Snoop Dog MS - Oct. 24, 2013
Duo BD145 is not dumb at all, sir. I was going to post tests against Defense, and it outspun Reviser*2 consistently. I don't think Diablo Kerbecs can do that. It is a good combo IMO.
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - Leone19 - Oct. 24, 2013
(Oct. 24, 2013 10:36 PM)Shining God MS Wrote: Duo BD145 is not dumb at all, sir. I was going to post tests against Defense, and it outspun Reviser*2 consistently. I don't think Diablo Kerbecs can do that. It is a good combo IMO.
Quote:since one of the best things about Duo is it can actually beat other defenders.
No need to get defensive (lol Beyblade pun), he's just stating his personal opinion.
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - DRAGON KING - Oct. 24, 2013
I definatly think diablo kerbecs has potential, I'm not sure about duo and has anyone even thought about death on bd145rf
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - [)ragon - Oct. 24, 2013
(Oct. 24, 2013 10:29 PM)ShinobuXD Wrote: Well, I always considered BD145 subpar to E230. I think its just used since IMO it is the best benchmark, we know how stuff fares against it.
Anyways, you've got a fairly large problem here: you state BD145 defense should be removed, but then who's to say Wyvang is the best for attack? Wouldn't Balro be, then? But wait.... if Balro is best for attack, then who's to say E230 is best for defense? You see, then we're just stuck in a never ending cycle...
....not to mention BD145 does significantly better against Wyvang Dragooon SA165 R2F.
As for RF defense, I would say anti-attack is basically just a better version of it.
EDIT: IMO Duo BD145 RF is dumb, since one of the best things about Duo is it can actually beat other defenders.
LOL, I didn't say BD145 Defense should be removed! XD I was just stating what the test results had to say about its overall win rates... I was wondering what people thought about it. In the poll I actually voted to keep BD145 Defense.
Anti-attack does not do better against attack than RF-Based Defense. It is more versatile, and does well against other things, but overall Duo RF does quite a bit better against conventional Attack than Diablo.
Honestly, trying to dismiss a Defense type because a form of Anti-Attack works better is not a very good comparison, for two reasons:
1. Anti-Attack is Balance. It is not specifically designed to take down attackers necessarily... it's just an advantage that it has over some other combos. Similarly, Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF is a defender with the added advantage to take down stamina types. However, for most people, neither work better than similar defense combos against attack. They work great, but adding versatility also takes away from something else. You can't get something for nothing.
TBH, anti-attack is more of Attack that happens to take down other forms of Attack consistently, and, as such, is used a a substitute for Defense in many cases. Therefore, you can't compare the two because they are completely different variations of customs.
2. You've also created another problem here... As I stated in the OP, if BD145RF Defense is outclassed by BD145RF anti-attack, then why is conventional BD145 Defense not removed for the same reason? Testing has clearly shown that, in most cases, MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF works better than MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RB.
If MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF > MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RF, and MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF > MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RB, then why is MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RF the only one to be removed?
There are reasons to keep conventional BD145 Defense over BD145RF Defense, such as the fact that BD145RDF setups work phenomenally against opposite-spin. Another reason is that RSF/CS defenders can OS BD145RF combos in some cases. But removing BD145RF Defense because BD145RF Anti-attack is more versatile is not a good reason, because conventional BD145 Defense is not versatile either.
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - LimiTTrickster - Oct. 25, 2013
I'm really interested as to what happens to this combo, great work as always theblackdragon!
Anyways, results (don't worry, out of 20):
Spoiler (Click to View)
Oh, and a small mistake in your results:
Quote:MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RF vs. MF-H Flash Orion S130R2F
Duo launched first on all launches.
Duo: wins, 15/20 (7 KO, 8 OS)
Flash: wins, 5/20 (All KO)
MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RB win rate: 75%
The red bit should be RF, not RB, I think.
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - Snoop Dog MS - Oct. 25, 2013
Technically... this was my idea to bring it back, but th!nk originally made Duo BD145RF.
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - Vixxterity - Oct. 26, 2013
Has anyone tried Duo Cygnus/Cancer BD145 RF vs. Wyvang Dragooon SA165 R2F / Killerken Dragooon DF105/LW105 LRF yet?
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - RagerBlade - Oct. 26, 2013
(Oct. 26, 2013 8:02 PM)Vixxterity Wrote: Has anyone tried Duo Cygnus/Cancer BD145 RF vs. Wyvang Dragooon SA165 R2F / Killerken Dragooon DF105/LW105 LRF yet?Aren't there already many test threads for those combos?
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - Vixxterity - Oct. 26, 2013
(Oct. 26, 2013 8:04 PM)RagerBlade Wrote:(Oct. 26, 2013 8:02 PM)Vixxterity Wrote: Has anyone tried Duo Cygnus/Cancer BD145 RF vs. Wyvang Dragooon SA165 R2F / Killerken Dragooon DF105/LW105 LRF yet?Aren't there already many test threads for those combos?
Not for RF based Defense I don't think so. I just want to see how it does against Dragooon based Attack.
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - [)ragon - Oct. 27, 2013
RF-based Defense usually does really well against Dragooon Attack from my experience.
I have a proposal here. I can definitely see the benefits of using RSF/CS/RDF BD145 defense in place of RF-based Defense, due to higher stamina (CS/RSF) and outstanding performance against left-spin (RDF).
here's my question: Given the numbers here, and the fact that it doesn't really provide any advantage over RSF, RDF, or RF-based Defense, if we end up looking into RF-based Defense would it be a good idea to remove RB?
Think about it... RB provides less defense than RDF without much (if any) increase in stamina, and it has far less stamina than RSF, not to mention that RDF and CS both work better against opposite-spin opponents.
Given these observations, is there any reason to keep RB on the tier list when other things seem to be obviously better? This is just an idea and it may not fly with everyone else, but I thought about it and I can't really think of a reason to use RB over RDF/RSF/CS in any case.
Opinions?
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - Infinity Lazer - Oct. 27, 2013
well I have RSF CS and RDF and CS and had RB for about 2 months befor I traded it and CS by far seems to me the best choice IMO it's a speacial mold never to be made again... it has more stamina then both my RSF RS CS and RB (when I had it) if it catches the tornado ridge it will circle like an R2F and end up ko-ing or messing up that attack types flower pattern... its a lot less risky in terms of self ko its slightly aggro like 20% less then my SF but sometimes more aggro then my super worn R2F (I still have the other one that I use for video's battles tests etc...)
if I launch mad hard and it has enough Stamina to OS MF! and in some cases WD (watch round 1 part #2 of my 3rd custom tourny) plus RDF scrapes waayyyy to often all it takes is the slightest slant and it goes aggro so you have to weak launch it (well it least with mine)
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - MacDuff - Oct. 31, 2013
I have got to say, this article really helped me. Not only did it help me see how some combo like Duo Aquario BD145RB can be changed so that it wouldn't be as much as a drag, but it also really helped my knowledge in Defense and Anti-Attack.
By the way, can LRF be considered in RF-based defense? Because Lazer didn't have a RF at the moment, in his B.O.B battles, I considered using LRF instead in the combo Duo Aquario BD145LRF, and it really worked against his combo, which was MF-H(IIRC)Flash Orion W145MF. My combo even outspin it!
RE: The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense - yt152430 - Nov. 01, 2013
How worn is the piece because if its brand new then theres no way it could work as a defense tip