World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Other Closed Threads

The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play

Aug. 15, 2014  3:32 PM
 
OK. I've got to toss my 2 cents in here, because I'm starting to get a bit annoyed with how far blown out of proportions things have gotten.

First off, let me make it perfectly clear that I'm for NO BAN, as if what's going to follow isn't straight forward enough.

1. Remember who the WBO's core audience. Not the hardcore crowd, but the casual Beyblade player. The kid who shows up at a tournament with 1-2 Beys, not knowing what to expect, but excited that they're attending a tournament. The kid who doesn't go out and spend all his money on Beyblades, importing parts and trying min/max to every fine detail.

2. We have a Limited Format for those of us who like to be a little extra competitive. Let's not get nitty gritty over the formats that the core audience gets their enjoyment out of. I can tell you already that Limited is the least favorite format in CT, having a large group of younger, casual Beyblade players. Most of these kids are new to tournaments in general. Even some of our most experienced players still want a more laid back experience than Limited offers.

3. The ORANGE F230 is the part that "we're" so worried about, and in reality, it's in short supply. Not only that, but with hard work and testing we're seeing viable potential counters to it.

Really, if you don't want F230 in your tournaments, suggest that it not be used. I don't think we should be banning parts, especially in Zero-G, which feels a bit more lighthearted than Standard.

This has turned into a witch hunt with exaggerated claims and a MASSIVE amount of group think. I'm tired of how long this has gone on, and tired of getting PMs trying to force the committee to make a decision, as if rushing us would help us make the right choice.

As a followup, let me make it perfectly clear that this is my PERSONAL OPINION, and I'm not speaking on behalf of the committee. You'll get the official decision from us once it's been made.
Aug. 15, 2014  5:20 PM
 
1) That is definitely something we should think about. What will we do if a kid only has a Dragooon F230? We can't just say then don't play. That will just make us lose members.

2) I have been thinking that we already have a format where parts are banned, so why ban parts in this format? Limited Zero G looks to be a coming thing so why make this a big deal? Just focus on trying to make a Limited Zero G if we want F230 gone so much. Just leave the other formats as they are. Nothing has been going bad.

3) People have been saying not to take these types of things when banning a part, but it's something I think we should. I mean if we ban a part that only few people have then what's the point?

We barely play Zero G. So until we start playing a lot more Zero G to back up claims that we have been making here then I don't think we should be able to even discuss a ban. You can't ban a part in a format that is only played in once every three months...

I say we have a different Zero G tourney every month in every different region. Then we have the hosts take a lot of Videos recording people using F230 and then see how it is used, and if it looks like it should be banned.
Aug. 15, 2014  5:53 PM
 
If its banned(which im in favor of) amd thats a a kid has I think the community would step up and give him something to use. Ultimately it comes down to this question,

"What's healthy for the metagame and community as a whole; a part that is hard to get but op if someome has it, or let go ofnthat one part and make it fair for those whom don't have the part."
Aug. 15, 2014  9:41 PM
 
The real question, in my opinion, is: Does it cripple the game enough that one can't win a tournament if he/she doesn't have it?
Aug. 15, 2014  10:01 PM
 
Should it be banned from all play? or just Limited-Battle? :\
Aug. 15, 2014  10:14 PM
 
(Aug. 15, 2014  9:41 PM)The Supreme One Wrote: The real question, in my opinion, is: Does it cripple the game enough that one can't win a tournament if he/she doesn't have it?

What people seem to think is, yes, if other players in the tournament have it.

(Aug. 15, 2014  10:01 PM)ShamanWolf Wrote: Should it be banned from all play? or just Limited-Battle? :\

What we're debating is Zero-G format, the one where you can use any MFB and we battle in the swaying Zero-G stadia.
Aug. 15, 2014  10:18 PM
 
(Aug. 15, 2014  10:01 PM)ShamanWolf Wrote: Should it be banned from all play? or just Limited-Battle? :\

No, definitely not; F230 doesn't seem to be an entirely big issue in Standard and Limited, however, it's really only focused on being banned in Zero-G and on CF and GCF, as it is quite a threat to the metagame. Also consider the title ''The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play'', as well, haha. Smile

LordRager Wrote:1) That is definitely something we should think about. What will we do if a kid only has a Dragooon F230? We can't just say then don't play. That will just make us lose members.

We quite obviously wouldn't do something like that, as it is disrespectful for the member who came out. It would be quite a coincidence for someone to only have a Dragoon F230, although if it does receive a ban, I'm sure another attendee wouldn't mind lending out a legal piece.

EDIT: Didn't see Wombat's post. Misread LordRager's post, as well. Sorry 'bout that! Unhappy
Aug. 16, 2014  12:56 AM
 
(Aug. 15, 2014  5:20 PM)LordRager Wrote: 1) That is definitely something we should think about. What will we do if a kid only has a Dragooon F230? We can't just say then don't play. That will just make us lose members.

I'm new, but I'm gonna take a risk here, and I'm not just directing it at you:

Tournament organizers or anyone at the tournament should be able to lend parts just for the day so that kid can play. Someone opposing my point may say, "Ooh, but that kid would want to buy more parts and when he can't, he'll ditch the WBO". But he doesn't have to, because in the next tournament he attends, no-one is nasty enough to not lend him parts. As a community, we strive to leave happiness in kids, and if the part-lender does so, the kid will stay. So, you can conclude from my point that it's the non-part-lender that would make the WBO lose members in this scenario.

Posted by Dark_Mousy - Today 02:53 AM:
Quote:If its banned(which im in favor of) amd thats a a kid has I think the community would step up and give him something to use.

Secondly, we always say, "Are you willing to sacrifice lives of many to save one?" The many lives are the excitement and diversity that the community experiences, and the one life is the kid. Surely you would risk one casualty rather than a few thousand?
I'm not for the ban in like one day, but if we can't find a counter within the anniversary (or whatever time period the commitee allows) of the beginning of its dominance (which some members such as Kei and Naijalak disagree with), I'm all for the ban. TheBlackDragon provides a strong argument that backs it up.
Aug. 16, 2014  3:41 PM
 
Yes we can lend parts, but we cannot take risks like that. There is always a possibility that the organizer doesn't have many parts. Then if no one else is willing to lend parts then we can't force anyone to, right? So the better solution is to not ban it altogether, and avoid the mess from the beginning. It's already very hard to have a kid come and say he's here for a Limited Tourney and have HyperBlades only. Banning F230 is just going to make Zero G feel like that all of a sudden.
Aug. 17, 2014  6:41 AM
 
In reality though, how many beginning players will have an orange TT F230? If they're in pretty much anywhere but Japan and anywhere close to it, they're gonna most likely be getting a Hasbro version. And if they were to get a TT one, it would probably be the brown one.

Once they get more experienced, they'll realise the orange TT F230's use, then they'll buy it.

On the rare occasion that someone did have an F230 as a first part (or one of their first parts), I'm sure someone out of at least seven people would have a track to give him.
Aug. 17, 2014  7:12 AM
 
F230 in ; IMO, is overpowered because it makes many Beyblades have more endurance then they should.
Also, it's one of those "gimmick" tracks. If it stays legal in Limited, basically the best say to beat it is MF Lightning LDrago/Other Smash wheels 85anyrubberflat, or Burn Cancer 85,90,WD/EWD.
I dunno. It's as OP as BD145 IMO, because both are powerful in their own right, but BD scrapes easily and F230 has balance issues.
It basically limits creativity and the fun of Limited to be honest.
In Z-G it can be countered so whatever.
Why even use it in BB-10 though in General, hahah?
Aug. 17, 2014  7:16 AM
 
This thread is for banning it in Zero-G haha.

In Limited it's extremely easy to counter.
Aug. 17, 2014  7:17 AM
 
(Aug. 17, 2014  7:16 AM)LMAO Wrote: This thread is for banning it in Zero-G haha.

In Limited it's extremely easy to counter.

I wanted to add in general, to back up my post basically to show it's useful in only some formats per say.
Edit- Idk I'm tired and can't think straight.
Continue, no need to continue
Aug. 20, 2014  2:41 AM
 
(Aug. 15, 2014  3:32 PM)Naijalak Wrote: OK. I've got to toss my 2 cents in here, because I'm starting to get a bit annoyed with how far blown out of proportions things have gotten... This has turned into a witch hunt with exaggerated claims and a MASSIVE amount of group think.

Things are not being blown out of proportion.

If I'm not mistaken, you've only ever played in one Zero-G event in which F230 was used, and it was only owned and played by one competitor.

It ended up sweeping the event completely, but that's beside the point.

I don't think you'd want to know what it's like in a Zero-G event in NC where like 6 players are spamming F230 for the entire event. It's bad. Plenty of players who've experienced it can attest to that. Generally, experience outweighs most things when it comes to reliability on a particular subject.

If you don't know what it's like to experience the problem in real life, it'd be nice if you didn't put too much confidence in a speculation about the issue.

As far as testing goes, from what I know, I have reason to believe that you have never laid hands on a Takara orange F230 before. Now, even if you have, I have even greater reason to believe you never got to test it. That said, I personally wouldn't put all that much stock in how "blown out of proportion" you assume the problem is.

No offense intended, but it's not exactly what most people would call "proffesional" to declare that a problem is being exaggerated without having any experience with it.

(Aug. 15, 2014  3:32 PM)Naijalak Wrote: 1. Remember who the WBO's core audience. Not the hardcore crowd, but the casual Beyblade player. The kid who shows up at a tournament with 1-2 Beys, not knowing what to expect, but excited that they're attending a tournament. The kid who doesn't go out and spend all his money on Beyblades, importing parts and trying min/max to every fine detail.

I agree. What does that have to do with anything? I'd say, if anything, that could actually be used as a point in favor of the ban. Those are the kids who get swamped by F230. They can't afford it, so they show up at a Zero-G event, and when they try to win, all the competitive players bulldoze over them with F230 combinations until they're eliminated.

Not having a good, working F230 in a Zero-G event really stinks. It really, really stinks.

Yet another reason to make the thing illegal.

Oh, and I'd say the core audience of "casual Beyblade players" is somewhat unique to Connecticut. In NC, MD, and TO, the audience is made up of hardcore competitive players who don't have a problem with blowing some cash on a really good part. The environment differs pretty widely between regions.

(Aug. 15, 2014  3:32 PM)Naijalak Wrote: 2. We have a Limited Format for those of us who like to be a little extra competitive. Let's not get nitty gritty over the formats that the core audience gets their enjoyment out of. I can tell you already that Limited is the least favorite format in CT, having a large group of younger, casual Beyblade players. Most of these kids are new to tournaments in general. Even some of our most experienced players still want a more laid back experience than Limited offers.

Let me answer that argument with a question: why do Bladers who like Zero-G enjoy it so much?

Because of the stadiums. Most Bladers who compete in Zero-G frequently like the swaying gimmick the Zero-G stadium offers. The battles are more dynamic and interesting.

Now, let me ask another question: what stadium is LTD played in? The BB-10 Attack Type Stadium. You can't tell players who don't like F230 to go play Limited instead, because they can't play in the stadium they want to play in. You can't sub the two for each other. The gameplay is totally different.

(Aug. 15, 2014  3:32 PM)Naijalak Wrote: 3. The ORANGE F230 is the part that "we're" so worried about, and in reality, it's in short supply. Not only that, but with hard work and testing we're seeing viable potential counters to it.

(Jul. 12, 2014  7:07 AM)Kei Wrote: Part availability/cost issues have no bearing on anything, I can guarantee that.

And, just as a side note, I just went to a Zero-G tournament the other day. Turns out that about 60% of the players there owned an orange Takara F230.

And I can assure you, if you'd witnessed an event in which F230 was used unreservedly, you'd be worried about it too.

We're way past hard work and testing. I've tested so hard, I've completely given up. I've tried everything I could think of that might have conceivably had some sort of chance against F230, and I've never come up with anything consistent or reliable. Yes, it is beatable, but it's extremely difficult, to the point where using it yourself is probably the better option anyway, seeing as attempting to counter it directly means sacrificing applicability against the rest of the metagame.

(Aug. 15, 2014  3:32 PM)Naijalak Wrote: Really, if you don't want F230 in your tournaments, suggest that it not be used. I don't think we should be banning parts, especially in Zero-G, which feels a bit more lighthearted than Standard.

Doesn't usually work. There's always one kid who wants to use it. He uses it, everyone else uses it to try and get a shot at him, and it all turns into a big mess. Sometimes, in a very, very small event, you can get a mostly F230-free tournament, but only occasionally (when you can, though, it's a heck of a lot more fun).

Why shouldn't we? Is the part overpowered? Yes. Does it hurt the game? Yes. Does it damage the community? Yes. Do we want it to keep doing what it's doing? Of course not!

There's plenty of reason to ban parts in any format. If it's for the good of the game, there isn't any reason not to.

(Aug. 15, 2014  3:32 PM)Naijalak Wrote: This has turned into a witch hunt with exaggerated claims and a MASSIVE amount of group think. I'm tired of how long this has gone on, and tired of getting PMs trying to force the committee to make a decision, as if rushing us would help us make the right choice.

Hey, come on. I sent you guys one Private Message (unless; did I send that reply to Kai-V to all of you? I think I did. Sorry about that). If you're getting multiple messages from people, I assume the senders aren't aware that others are doing the same thing.

I'm tired of how long it's gone on too. I want it to be over just as much as you do.

I'd say we're past rushing. It's been over a year since the problem started, and six months since this thread was posted.

I'd urge you (really hard) to reconsider. I think it would be perfectly appropriate to initiate a ban, and at least take a look at how the metagame adapts to the change. You guys are the committee. If you think it was a bad decision, you can always revert the ban and make it legal again (I don't think you'll want to once you see how much more friendly/versatile/fun/awesome/swag the format becomes, but hey, you've got nothing to lose; and as a double bonus, if it turns out bad, all of us down here whining for a ban will stop nagging you guys about it! It's a win-win situation).
Aug. 20, 2014  2:46 AM
 
At this point, everyone is restating everything; with all of the information and data available, it's only fair to give the committee as much time as they need to make an appropriate decision that they can all (or mostly, haha) agree upon. Everything has pretty much been said, mostly twice, haha.

No point in either side "pushing" anyone this point, which would only result in a rash choice. Just my thoughts.
Aug. 20, 2014  2:57 AM
 
That's what I thought, which is why I deliberately waited for 3 months after writing the message to send it.

I'm fine with them taking all the time they need, but its been so long I think some people are wanting assurance that the issue is actually being discussed and that the committee is working toward a decision (which I have been informed is definitely the case, so you're right; there's no need to push anyone).

And yes, restatement is basically what it's come down to, which is a clear sign no new variable is going to present itself anytime soon.
Aug. 20, 2014  3:04 AM
 
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-The-Retu...pid1232422

Home tests and tournament results are really different. It made the difference between Hasbro's Scythe getting banned from the Limited format or staying intact.
Aug. 20, 2014  3:18 AM
 
Im at the poilnt where I just say lets just not use CF or GCF with F230 and call it an evening. Personally IF i couldn't use CF or GCF with F230 I wouldn't use it in Zero G
Aug. 21, 2014  5:28 PM
 
(Aug. 20, 2014  3:18 AM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: Im at the poilnt where I just say lets just not use CF or GCF with F230 and call it an evening. Personally IF i couldn't use CF or GCF with F230 I wouldn't use it in Zero G

Can't f230 be used in other very effective combos in zero g, or is it only standard that uses f230 as one of the top endurance tracks? F230 is a cool part, and I'm sure that banning that combination will lead to extensive testing of other tips, and may produce a combo with similar effectiveness.
I apologize if my argument is baseless, but I think that my point is atleast somewhat viable.
Aug. 21, 2014  5:30 PM
 
(Aug. 20, 2014  3:18 AM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: Im at the poilnt where I just say lets just not use CF or GCF with F230 and call it an evening. Personally IF i couldn't use CF or GCF with F230 I wouldn't use it in Zero G
I haven't seen any other tips Over Powered with it since all other tips make it tip over.
Aug. 21, 2014  5:40 PM
 
That being said, it's not bad as a stamina tip. In some cases, the fact that it spins and part of it sticks out a little can make it a destabilizer against shorter tracks. I've seen people use it like 230 before and do fairly well. If the CF/GCF was banned, that doesn't mean that F230 would lose all competitive value. It just wouldn't be overpowered anymore.
Aug. 21, 2014  8:32 PM
 
(Aug. 21, 2014  5:40 PM)The Supreme One Wrote: That being said, it's not bad as a stamina tip. In some cases, the fact that it spins and part of it sticks out a little can make it a destabilizer against shorter tracks. I've seen people use it like 230 before and do fairly well. If the CF/GCF was banned, that doesn't mean that F230 would lose all competitive value. It just wouldn't be overpowered anymore.

in personal testing Ive tried F230 GF and it didn't do bad. It wasn't as overpowered as F230 CF/GCF. If we change the rules where we can't use F230 with CF or GCF then all sides win. F230 stays but its not as OP as it once was. People will feel safe in Zero G events again. Everyone wins.
Aug. 21, 2014  8:35 PM
 
(Aug. 20, 2014  2:46 AM)Leone19 Wrote: At this point, everyone is restating everything; with all of the information and data available, it's only fair to give the committee as much time as they need to make an appropriate decision that they can all (or mostly, haha) agree upon. Everything has pretty much been said, mostly twice, haha.

No point in either side "pushing" anyone this point, which would only result in a rash choice. Just my thoughts.

Just going to repost that becuase it's important for us to understand too that the committee is probably going through all possible choices and ideas; again, most of these ideas are just restating/reporting previously posted suggestions.
Aug. 22, 2014  12:57 AM
 
(Aug. 21, 2014  8:35 PM)Leone19 Wrote:
(Aug. 20, 2014  2:46 AM)Leone19 Wrote: At this point, everyone is restating everything; with all of the information and data available, it's only fair to give the committee as much time as they need to make an appropriate decision that they can all (or mostly, haha) agree upon. Everything has pretty much been said, mostly twice, haha.

No point in either side "pushing" anyone this point, which would only result in a rash choice. Just my thoughts.

Just going to repost that becuase it's important for us to understand too that the committee is probably going through all possible choices and ideas; again, most of these ideas are just restating/reporting previously posted suggestions.

Exactly.

As of now, I'm guessing the committee is waiting on the North Carolina community to have a Zero-G tournament where F230 is completely overused to prove whether or not F230 should be banned. I believe Kai-V mentioned this, and so I guess it's all up to North Carolina now.
Aug. 22, 2014  1:45 AM
 
Well, North Carolina, Maryland, etc. Any community that currently thinks they have a problem with F230 and who have not yet tried filled cardboard as well as TB counters.
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