The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play
(Jul. 11, 2014 1:38 AM)*Ginga* Wrote: Are you someone who is uncertain? Because "undefined/uncertain" is a lot different from "I'm against a banning."
No, I am not someone who is "uncertain", I am against banning F230. I was simply stating others (with tournament experience) are uncertain, rather than for or against, at this point.
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OK, but I am asking if there is anyone actually completely against the banning like you are.
Just out of curiosity, how many of you think Hasbro's Scythe needs to be banned from the Limited format ?
Honestly I am fine either way, but this new topic should be carried to the Limited Ban List discussion.
Scythe: I'm currently not up for banning it anymore. At first I believed it needed to be banned, but I found out it wasn't that good in tournament's and it had many counters.
(Jul. 11, 2014 1:45 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Just out of curiosity, how many of you think Hasbro's Scythe needs to be banned from the Limited format ?
Just wondering, what made you bring it up here and not the "Should we ban Scythe discussion"?
I am more or less indifferent on the subject, but like F230, I'm kinda leaning towards the ban given what others have been saying about it being too dominant.
In my one run-in with Scythe, I lost 3-2 against it using Jade WD, but the match could have gone either way had there been more than 5 rounds (wall saves, I had a stronger launch and could have gotten an OS, etc.).
What I think the main indecision of Scythe and F230 have in common is the "mold" differences. While F230 has confirmed molds, with some shafts having a rounded edge and some having a 90 degree edge, Scythe does not, and I'm pretty sure we've decided it's up to natural variance, not product code, whether your Scythe is good or not. While getting a good Scythe is random, we all know TT Orange is the best F230, but it's difficult to get without being lucky/paying $60ish for a spinning top.
Also, I want to add, if Scythe goes, Omega needs to go with it as Scythe Defense pretty much the only thing that can beat Omega consistently.
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(Jul. 11, 2014 1:49 AM)Ryûzaki Wrote: Scythe: I'm currently not up for banning it anymore. At first I believed it needed to be banned, but I found out it wasn't that good in tournament's and it had many counters.I think Ginga was talking about really active players. If you were playing in a tournament where F230 was used, you might change your mind :p
As for banning Scythe, I think the whole "ban Scythe" ordeal is pretty stupid because it isn't even one of my top choices for stamina & I could care less about defense. The tests prove that both it and Omega aren't really worthy of a ban; there are too many counters. So no, I'm not one of those people who wants to ban every part that's half decent, as I assume you're trying to figure out. F230 is an issue entirely separate from the rest, in my opinion.
Sorry if that comes out a little harsh lol
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(Jul. 11, 2014 2:03 AM)The Supreme One Wrote:(Jul. 11, 2014 1:49 AM)Ryûzaki Wrote: Scythe: I'm currently not up for banning it anymore. At first I believed it needed to be banned, but I found out it wasn't that good in tournament's and it had many counters.I think Ginga was talking about really active players. If you were playing in a tournament where F230 was used, you might change your mind :p
Same should go for the people arguing for a ban, in my opinion. Someone arguing for its ban even posted they've never faced it in an event or testing.
Sorry if that came out as rude, myself.
I agree, however, it's evident that many people who do have recent tournament experience want it banned, so the question is whether any active players besides yourself are adamant about keeping the set-up.
I've never actually tested it, TBH. My F230 is Hasbro Orange, and then there's the whole issue of making two Attack types fight in a Zero-G Stadium...
Kei Wrote:The point has never been that Toronto never uses it–we certainly do; I mean, just take a look at some BeyChannel videos–but that it hasn't been as overwhelmingly great as it seems to be for you guys. The biggest issue I can remember is that we haven't had issues with left-spin SA165BWD combos outspinning left-spin F230, while you apparently do.
Oh, I didn't mean you guys didn't use it - I was referring to your witnessing it used by MD players firsthand.
Kei Wrote:I don't know where you're getting that "dozen or so times" number or any of that information from, but yes, it was used a lot in GRAND BATTLE ENCORE: Zero-G. I'm pretty sure every one of my five battles against geetster99 in that tournament were right/left-spin variants of F230 versus F230 lol.
I got the "dozen or so" from multiple PMs I received back from Geetster and Sniper - I asked them to list as many matches as they could remember; I guess they may have missed some (that or they didn't clarify which were F230 vs. F230, of which until now I assumed there was only 1 of).
5 matches of F230 vs. F230? Sounds like you've experienced a little of what NC had last summer through Autumn. Glad we're finally pretty much on the same page.
Kei Wrote:If we were to ban it, what would you guys guess the metagame would look like? I haven't looked through this entire thread, so if you've already done that feel free to point it out to me.
Oh goody:
If F230 were removed, I would theorize that we'd see pretty much a perfect balance between Stamina, Defense and Attack; or at least, a closer balance than we've seen in any other format. B : D and SA165 would continue to dominate the conventional Stamina spectrum, with Duo and Dragooon appearing exclusively with D-series Bottoms to compete with each other, and probably several Genbull TB combinations would pop up. With so many B : D/SA165EWD/BWD/W2D Stamina combinations everywhere, I believe we'd see plenty of Zero-G Attack used, which would likely trigger the frequent use of E230MB customs, which function as both counters to LTSC combos via destabilization, and effective Zero-G Defense customs. Of course, we'd probably see RS and RSF used as well for a more purely Defensive approach. To adapt to the E230MB combinations, I'd expect to see Duo 230TB/MB combinations as well, which would encourage the use of Dragooon spin stealers, encouraging the use of Duo B : D/SA165 customs, encouraging the use of Zero-G Attack... and the whole circle repeats itself, with several interesting criss-cross paterns in between.
I got butterflies in my stomach writing that paragraph. XD
Kei Wrote:I have been thinking in the back of my mind for a while that regardless of that specific match-up I just described, maybe it's time for F230 to go simply to open the format up a bit to different options.
You have no idea how happy it makes me just reading that sentence. If we banned this thing, I would just... *SNIFF*
...That would just be the most amazing thing ever.
Leone19: I'm pretty sure you're kind of the only one who really wants it to stay (well, at least enough to debate the topic - no one else is speaking up).
TBH, I don't know why you do; regardless of whether you think the part is worthy of a ban, I think everyone can agree that the format would be so much more fun without it. So we ban it - nobody will be able to use it (which I think would be just the coolest, most unbelievably awesome thing ever), but even if you think that's actually a bad thing (which I still don't get), you can't deny that the format as a whole would be far, far more interesting, and would generate a far more competitive atmosphere.
Zero-G Attack vs. F230: F230 does usually win. Wombat's experience was in our very first tournament in which F230 was spammed, and his opponents neglected to weak launch (except for me, the third player he faced). Aside from that, we've seen F230 vs. ZRG Attack several times since then, and IIRC not one of them resulted in a loss for F230.
Yes, it's one of your best shots, but it isn't a very good one to say the least (not to mention the fact that ZRG Attack is much more difficult to use in a tournament setting).
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Actually, I just talked to him(TD) 2 hours ago and he told me wanted it to stay unbanned.
It's late and I don't want to type an argument now, but I have posted my reasons I don't think the part should be banned. Again, there are others as well, some who have posted, some who haven't.
However, I really don't appreciate you basically telling me that my opinion is wrong, while yours is right and I have to agree. But, I really don't want to get into personal arguments, when this is abort the part.
However, I really don't appreciate you basically telling me that my opinion is wrong, while yours is right and I have to agree. But, I really don't want to get into personal arguments, when this is abort the part.
Really?
That kid will not stop changing his mind...
EDIT: Oops, that was in reply to Echizen's post.
I'm sorry if I came off as rude, but TBH I don't think the argument against a ban is very sound, and I truly believe that leaving the part legal will do a lot more harm to our players than good.
That kid will not stop changing his mind...
EDIT: Oops, that was in reply to Echizen's post.
I'm sorry if I came off as rude, but TBH I don't think the argument against a ban is very sound, and I truly believe that leaving the part legal will do a lot more harm to our players than good.
Yep.
From the earlier posts in the topic it seemes he was in favor of it staying unbannes, but I assume you mean he must've changed his mind some time in between.
From the earlier posts in the topic it seemes he was in favor of it staying unbannes, but I assume you mean he must've changed his mind some time in between.
Yes, every time he shows up at a tournament he slams it.
I'm talking to him now. His quote was "It's so much scarier at tournaments."
I'm talking to him now. His quote was "It's so much scarier at tournaments."
(Jul. 11, 2014 3:17 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Zero-G Attack vs. F230: F230 does usually win. Wombat's experience was in our very first tournament in which F230 was spammed, and his opponents neglected to weak launch (except for me, the third player he faced). Aside from that, we've seen F230 vs. ZRG Attack several times since then, and IIRC not one of them resulted in a loss for F230.
Yes, it's one of your best shots, but it isn't a very good one to say the least (not to mention the fact that ZRG Attack is much more difficult to use in a tournament setting).
What you described earlier in your post sounds great, but my problem is that in my experience, anything you explain regarding F230 is never as dramatically bad as you make it out to be.
I've had success against F230 using Zero-G Attack several times. Case in point, the final BeyBattle in this video (there is at least one other Zero-G Attack vs. F230CF/GCF battle in that video too just before mine). Regarding not only that battle, but others too, you could argue "they didn't launch correctly", but I think that only strengthens the argument for not banning it. Something that involves some level of skill is less likely to be banned because it isn't necessarily an instant win for whoever uses it. If someone was an absolute master Attack type user and used their Beyblade to it's fullest potential, overcoming type/spin direction/etc. disadvantages, and blowing through everyone, would that mean we should ban all Attack types? Obviously not. This is an exaggeration, but I think you know what I mean. I find it hard to believe that an unskilled Blader could sweep a tournament with F230 where skilled Bladers are participating and observing their tendencies. Could they place? Perhaps. But so could someone who uses any regular Balance (or even straight up Stamina) combination.
That said, I'm simply playing devil's advocate here. I can see the reasons why we should ban it, but I don't know if I'm convinced yet based on my own experience. I'm still on the fence personally. You guys have to keep in mind that banning a part is an absolutely monumental decision, and as you know, has only been done once before outside of Limited Format (which doesn't really count in my mind, as that format was built to be more experimental). As someone that was around when Libra was banned, and as someone who in hindsight feels that that ban may have been unwarranted and premature, I want to be sure that this time we make the right decision.
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(Jul. 11, 2014 3:48 AM)Kei Wrote: What you described earlier in your post sounds great, but my problem is that in my experience, anything you explain regarding F230 is never as dramatically bad as you make it out to be.
Actually, a lot of the time it is - why you guys aren't experiencing the same thing, I have no idea, but, even if I am biased and some of the thing I say are probably more sensational than they should be (and I regret that), most of the things I say are as objective as I can make them.
A lot of the... drama, as you call it, in some of my posts, probably stems from my frustration at not being able to solve the problem outside of banning the part. I tried for far longer than I should have, and I still couldn't come up with anything (and coming up with combinations to solve an unexplored problem is one of the things I'd like to think I'm good at), and it kinda destroyed any pity or sentiment I had for the part. All I really have left is hatred. Cold, passionate hatred.
... You know, realizing what I just said, you're actually probably right. :\ Touche.
But I'd still say my reasoning is pretty sound. However biased and... sometimes maybe dramatic (but just a little bit... right?) I may be, the tournament results, test results, competitive experience etc. I've collected over the past year are far more than enough to convince me.
I understand how serious banning a part would be, but from my personal experience, there is far more than enough reason to do so, and I think that the sooner it happens, the better. I've been on this for about a year now, and I've been contemplating the effects the entire time. I am fully prepared and anxious to see this thing kick the bucket, and I really think it would be in the WBO's best interest.
I agree, F230 is a lot scarier in tournament play. Testing: No loss, just battle on. Tournaments you get one chance. And that sucks to lose against a combo like that. With the perfect balance that TBD mentioned, matches are not only more fun, but it gives chances to skill. If need be, I can KO something with a stamina type, OS with a defense type, or whatever.
I want it banned, almost Basalt and almost Libra.
I want it banned, almost Basalt and almost Libra.
(Jul. 11, 2014 3:17 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Zero-G Attack vs. F230: F230 does usually win. Wombat's experience was in our very first tournament in which F230 was spammed, and his opponents neglected to weak launch (except for me, the third player he faced). Aside from that, we've seen F230 vs. ZRG Attack several times since then, and IIRC not one of them resulted in a loss for F230.
Yes, it's one of your best shots, but it isn't a very good one to say the least (not to mention the fact that ZRG Attack is much more difficult to use in a tournament setting).
Yeah, I meant to edit my post earlier and point out a vital piece of info, but forgot, sorry. Anyways, this tournament occurred 7/27/13 (or 27/7/13 if you're not American), which was before TBD or whoever discovered the special way to launch F230 to take out the thing people thought countered it. If the launch had been discovered prior to that date then I'm not sure whether I would have fared so well. Another thing that may be of note in my post was the Stadiums where I fought F230. I beat it in Attack and Defense but lost in Balance.
(Jul. 11, 2014 3:48 AM)Kei Wrote: You guys have to keep in mind that banning a part is an absolutely monumental decision, and as you know, has only been done once before outside of Limited Format (which doesn't really count in my mind, as that format was built to be more experimental). As someone that was around when Libra was banned, and as someone who in hindsight feels that that ban may have been unwarranted and premature, I want to be sure that this time we make the right decision.
While I do feel like people (TBD especially) have exaggerated how strong F230 is, I would not say a ban now would be premature. Like I said earlier, TAKARA TOMY hasn't released anything new in like a year and a half, so we've had plenty of time to try and figure out a way to stop F230 and not come up with anything that counters it consistently. Maybe his hype has scared a few other people into agreeing, but due to my limited (no pun intended) experience with F230 I'd think my opinion is unbiased enough. If it goes, it's fine. If it stays, it's fine. But I'm leaning toward the ban based on what other people are saying.
(Jul. 11, 2014 4:07 AM)DrPepsidew Wrote: I agree, F230 is a lot scarier in tournament play. Testing: No loss, just battle on. Tournaments you get one chance. And that sucks to lose against a combo like that. With the perfect balance that TBD mentioned, matches are not only more fun, but it gives chances to skill. If need be, I can KO something with a stamina type, OS with a defense type, or whatever.This is the most intangible argument I'm going to make, but the Doc said here F230 is a lot "scarier" in tournaments. It's like that whole thing when you get nervous to use Attack in tournaments, and maybe end up self-KOing/underperforming under pressure. Like TBD said, Crush of the G-Force was the first major tournament where F230 was spammed. Coming into the tournament, I was pretty foggy on what was good in Zero-G besides Dragooon B:D. I had no clue F230 was as overpowered as it is, and wasn't intimidated by the thought of facing it because it hadn't built its reputation yet. Just my two cents on the whole psychological part of this.
I want it banned, almost Basalt and almost Libra.
(Jul. 11, 2014 1:00 AM)ULTIMATE BLAZE Wrote:(Jul. 11, 2014 12:54 AM)Wombat Wrote:I totally agree with you, i used normal attack against dragoon f230 and i won 3-2(Jul. 11, 2014 12:39 AM)Kei Wrote: What do you mean? I still think 'traditional' Zero-G Attack is viable. The match-up against F230 can be tough, but it is by no means a given that F230 would win. It's a toss up, really.
I find this to be true, at least in my experience. According to my book, I've beaten Revizer Dragooon F230CF twice with Balro Wyvang AD145GF, and lost to it once. IMO 'traditional' Zero-G Attack is the solidest way to fight Dragooon F230(G)CF. Like a battle between two equally matched Attack types, it really comes down to who hits who where.
The first time I beat it 3-2 in the Attack Stadium, and the second time I beat it 3-1 in the Defense Stadium. I lost to it 2-3 in the Balance Stadium. All three opponents used Revizer and CF. The first opponent used MSF-L, the second used a normal Face, and the third used MSF-H.
These were during a tournament if you hadn't figured that out by now, so they don't have the 20 rounds as formal tests, but they have the legitimate tournament experience where both people launched at the same time. So I hope this info counts for something.
Ah, then you've all had better experiences than me, ha ha. I lost to a Dragooon Synchrome on F230CF while using Balro Balro E230GCF because my opponent weak launched and banked or something, and I couldn't KO it, resulting in my loss 3-0 by OS.
With a good bank, I've seen several players put F230CF Synchromes at the center of stadiums and keep them there to outlast Zero-G Attackers, as well as some B:D Stamina combos. Yes, that takes "skill," but anybody could manage the technique with a little practice.
EDIT: y do i post so late, where did these last two pages even come from all of a sudden?
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(Jul. 11, 2014 3:35 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Yes, every time he shows up at a tournament he slams it.I decided to post since it appears some people have been talking about my opinion on this. I'm still on the side of not banning F230. One major reason is not everyone has the technique down or the skill to use it. If F230 isn't launched a certain way in certain match ups it has a great chance of losing, especially I you are going against same spin direction or sway from what I've seen. It's like in a TCG you may have a good deck, but if you don't know how to use it you will more than likely take a loss. The only reason I brought up skill is because some of the less high ranked/conpetitive players in our area have gotten an orange F230 so it would be interesting to see how that effects the meta.
I'm talking to him now. His quote was "It's so much scarier at tournaments."
When I told you "scarier in tournaments" isn't that how beyblade is suppose to be? Exciting and surprising is what I mean. Although F230 is a better part than most things we have seen some matches where it lost even recently. I've seen some random stuff in F230 matches and although it has a high chance of winning in certain set ups you can still win when it comes down to luck.
Also it's not like everybody has an F230 and all the ones that do spam it in events constantly. Also on the topic of skill if was probably easier for a member to use Basalt BD145 CS in its time than F230 considering not everyone can launch it perfectly.
And finally the meta won't be "a perfect balance of everything" if F230 is banned. It's going straight back to Duo and Dragooon combos everywhere like it was before F230's ban which was what our 2013 NC Revolution qualifier was (which was one of the few tournaments before people started using Dragooon F230.