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[Takara Tomy]  [BSC] Unbanning of Generate Driver

Jan. 02, 2020  4:29 AM
 
Hi all,

I hope this post finds you all well. Recently, I was made aware that the new Generate Driver was added to the banlist for Burst Classic. Over the past few months, I've come to really enjoy the BSC format, especially the idea that most newly released drivers would be allowed in the format to keep it fresh. While I do understand that newer drivers like Hybrid and Ignition' have no place in BSC due to their gimmicks, I feel like the ban of Generate seems a little preemptive and lacked enough evidence/ explanation to warrant a ban. My two big reasons as to why I believe Generate should be allowed in BSC are that:

1) Generate (~36.8grams) weighs less than the heaviest Disk/ Driver combination in the format, Gravity+Bullet (~37grams).
2) Its performance does not break the game and opens the META up more experimentation to counter it.

Elaborating more on Generate's performance:

Generate is a tricky driver to use in BSC. On Single and Dual layers, if one launches too hard, it has a very high chance of Self-KOing. For that reason, it is best to use Generate with a sliding/ banking shot. The idea is get it to flower pattern long enough to switch into stamina mode before Self-KOing. This is definitely easier said than done and even pulling it off doesn't guarantee that Generate won't fly out into a pocket. 

For the testing below, I decided to use Wolborg on Generate to reduce it's chance of bursting. Other Stamina layers like Kerbeus and Acid Anubis were too prone to bursting on it. The intention of using WB.Gn in these test is to simulate a combo in BSC that would both have decent stamina and strong burst resistance that could potentially "break the game".


Here are my results:

Driger Slash Gravity Revolve (First) vs. Wolborg Generate (Second Sliding Shoot)
Spoiler (Click to View)
- DRS.G.R: 3 OS, 3 KO (60% Win Rate)
- WB.Gn: 3 OS, 1 KO (40% Win Rate)

Driger Fang Heavy Charge (First) vs. Wolborg Generate (Second Sliding Shoot)
Spoiler (Click to View)
- DRF.H.Ch: 3 KO (30% Win Rate)
- WB.Gn: 7 OS (70% Win Rate)

Yegdrion Y2 Knuckle Yard-S (Battle Ring Mode) (First) vs. Wolborg Generate (Second Sliding Shoot)
Spoiler (Click to View)
- Y2.K.Yr-S: 7 OS (70% Win Rate)
- WB.Gn: 2 Burst, 1 OS (30% Win Rate)

Wolborg Generate (First Sliding Shoot) vs. Victory Valkyrie Heavy Quick' (Second Sliding Shoot)
Spoiler (Click to View)
- WB.Gn: 5 OS, 1 Burst (60% Win Rate)
- V2.H.Qc': 2 KO, 1 OS, 1 Burst (40% Win Rate)

Wolborg Generate (First Sliding Shoot) vs. Victory Valkyrie Heavy Ultimate Reboot' (Second Sliding Shoot)
Spoiler (Click to View)
- WB.Gn: 3 OS, 1 Burst (40% Win Rate)
- V2.H.Ul': 4 OS, 1 Burst, 1 KO (60% Win Rate)

Wolborg Generate (First Sliding Shoot) vs. Victory Valkyrie Heavy Dimension' (Tallest Mode) (Second Sliding Shoot)
Spoiler (Click to View)
- WB.Gn: 1 OS, 1 Burst (20% Win Rate)
- V2.H.Dm': 3 OS, 3 Burst, 2 KO (80% Win Rate)

The standouts of these tests were definitely Yegdrion Y2 Knuckle Yard-S and Victory Valkyrie Heavy Dimension'. Yegdrion Y2's test shows that Generate can be consistently outspun with a very accessible combo. Victory Valkyrie Heavy Dimension' was made with the idea that having V2's Sloped wings on Dimension'’s Tallest setting would allow for the combo to destabilize WB.Gn from above. The combo did just that and was even able to burst it. This, to me, is an example of the experimentation new drivers allow for within BSC's META. Finding combos to tackle new challenges in Burst classic is what gets me excited for this format.  Again, I feel like Generate's ban was a little preemptive and against the spirit of the format.

I would love to hear all your thoughts on this! Do you all think Generate should be Banned from BSC or does it deserve a run in the Format?


All the Best!

LazerBeamz
Jan. 02, 2020  4:53 AM
 
I don't have a Generate yet, so I'm unfamiliar with its basic properties. Could you briefly describe them?

Questions I have in mind:
1. How Tall is Generate?
2. How wide is generate? The wideness was a major factor in Hybrid and Ignition', it was wider than some of the single layers.
3. What kind of LAD does it bring to the bey?

On the one hand, new drivers are generally welcome in Classic. But not new discs. And Generate, counts as both. So I don't know what to think!

I have no strong opinions on this at this time, I just want more basic data. I plan to dig through the Master Diabolos thread, but that's going to be... a lot.
Jan. 02, 2020  5:02 AM
 
(Jan. 02, 2020  4:53 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: I don't have a Generate yet, so I'm unfamiliar with its basic properties. Could you briefly describe them?

Questions I have in mind:
1. How Tall is Generate?
2. How wide is generate? The wideness was a major factor in Hybrid and Ignition', it was wider than some of the single layers.
3. What kind of LAD does it bring to the bey?

On the one hand, new drivers are generally welcome in Classic. But not new discs. And Generate,  counts as both. So I don't know what to think!

I have no strong opinions on this at this time, I just want more basic data. I plan to dig through the Master Diabolos thread, but that's going to be... a lot.
 
Great questions.

1. Generate is about 3.25mm tall.
2. It is about 4.75mm wide from its widest points on it's "disk".
3. From my testing, Generate has decent LAD, but an important factor to mention is that its "disk" can destabilize shorter combos, causing them to drastically lose stamina and for Generate to get the outspin. That is essentially what happened for its wins against DRS.G.R and DRF.H.Ch.
Jan. 02, 2020  7:39 AM
 
Once a part is banned, many players will have little incentive to test the part in the format that it is banned in.  A reasonable solution to the particular overpowered part may take much longer to find because there are less people willing to work on the solution(s).  

It is true that 1-2 tournaments may be completely dominated with an over powered part without preemptive bans,  but that also provides the proof that there is definitely a problem.   I just feel like with the hyperspheres, motorized drivers, and now Generate, there has been quite a few preemptive bans.  I am not saying I disagree with all the bans but I am not opposed to seeing real proof of a problem.  What I truly want to see is an ingenious solution to a problem that people didn’t know existed.  That would be exciting.
Jan. 02, 2020  1:59 PM
 
While I do think it is a good idea to test and try to get things unbanned, I also think it's a good idea to preemptively ban potentially meta breaking parts. From what my brother tells me in the Pokemon TCG, they have a temp ban on new cards for a couple of weeks to to make sure they aren't going to break the meta. It's the same thing with the smash Bros ESports league I'm in. They ban the new DLC fighters for 2 weeks to see if testing shows it's not OP and to let people get used to the matchup. I don't think this should be the case with standard of course, but if the previous 2 similar driver/disk hybrids (pun intended) got banned, I think they should be banned until proven to be non game breaking. The thing I don't agree with is how strict they are with unbanning parts. I understand your POV, I'm in the same boat as you. As much as I know that the turbo exclusives are perfectly fine (besides M4 and B4), It has been a big struggle to get them unbanned. In the same way I think things should be preemptively banned, I think things should be unbanned when those suspicions are gone. If we find they may need to be banned for further testing, that's fine, but it just think they should be way more chill when it comes to unbanning parts.
Jan. 02, 2020  6:12 PM
 
(Jan. 02, 2020  1:59 PM)bladekid Wrote: While I do think it is a good idea to test and try to get things unbanned, I also think it's a good idea to preemptively ban potentially meta breaking parts. From what my brother tells me in the Pokemon TCG, they have a temp ban on new cards for a couple of weeks to to make sure they aren't going to break the meta. It's the same thing with the smash Bros ESports league I'm in. They ban the new DLC fighters for 2 weeks to see if testing shows it's not OP.....
I think there is merit in separating release date from tournament legal date.  This is common for TCG at least in the past to my knowledge.  These days, cards get leaked so early and there are so many tools for theory crafting I don’t know that a delay is truly needed or even exists. I don’t know much about Esports outside of Hearthstone but that is still a card game so I can’t really comment on that. The argument for this practice: 

1. Gives players time to acquire cards/parts
2. Gives time for testing to the community
3. Gives the governing body time to errata, restrict, update rules, or even ban.  
4. Gives judges time to learn new rules regarding new mechanic and interactions. 

The primary problem with this practice:

1. Players hold on to their results/tech hoping to break a tournament anyway.  This is admittedly harder to do in the social media age but still does happen.  In the end, competitive players are looking exactly to break a tournament.

Personally I don’t mind a waiting period before a part becomes legal.  However, the ultimate test is still just tournament results in my opinion.
Jan. 02, 2020  6:57 PM
 
(Jan. 02, 2020  6:12 PM)Shindog Wrote:
(Jan. 02, 2020  1:59 PM)bladekid Wrote: While I do think it is a good idea to test and try to get things unbanned, I also think it's a good idea to preemptively ban potentially meta breaking parts. From what my brother tells me in the Pokemon TCG, they have a temp ban on new cards for a couple of weeks to to make sure they aren't going to break the meta. It's the same thing with the smash Bros ESports league I'm in. They ban the new DLC fighters for 2 weeks to see if testing shows it's not OP.....
I think there is merit in separating release date from tournament legal date.  This is common for TCG at least in the past to my knowledge.  These days, cards get leaked so early and there are so many tools for theory crafting I don’t know that a delay is truly needed or even exists. I don’t know much about Esports outside of Hearthstone but that is still a card game so I can’t really comment on that. The argument for this practice: 

1. Gives players time to acquire cards/parts
2. Gives time for testing to the community
3. Gives the governing body time to errata, restrict, update rules, or even ban.  
4. Gives judges time to learn new rules regarding new mechanic and interactions. 

The primary problem with this practice:

1. Players hold on to their results/tech hoping to break a tournament anyway.  This is admittedly harder to do in the social media age but still does happen.  In the end, competitive players are looking exactly to break a tournament.

Personally I don’t mind a waiting period before a part becomes legal.  However, the ultimate test is still just tournament results in my opinion.
I understand this, and the same thing as you mentioned happened in Super smash Bros brawl where a lot of top players had kinda a pact to make the character Metaknight not look as OP to keep him legal. That's one of the reasons I said that it wasn't a big deal in standard. My point was that Gn if of the same archetype as Ig' and Hy, both of which are considered bannable. It makes sense why Gn is banned. Like we don't need to test every new disk for legality in classic since we've come to the understanding that the core disk and GT disk archetypes are too strong, so them as a whole are prebanned. That said, like I previously stated, if we find said piece to be fine in the meta, I do agree that it should be unbanned.
Jan. 02, 2020  8:49 PM
 
(Jan. 02, 2020  6:57 PM)bladekid Wrote:
(Jan. 02, 2020  6:12 PM)Shindog Wrote: I think there is merit in separating release date from tournament legal date.  This is common for TCG at least in the past to my knowledge.  These days, cards get leaked so early and there are so many tools for theory crafting I don’t know that a delay is truly needed or even exists. I don’t know much about Esports outside of Hearthstone but that is still a card game so I can’t really comment on that. The argument for this practice: 

1. Gives players time to acquire cards/parts
2. Gives time for testing to the community
3. Gives the governing body time to errata, restrict, update rules, or even ban.  
4. Gives judges time to learn new rules regarding new mechanic and interactions. 

The primary problem with this practice:

1. Players hold on to their results/tech hoping to break a tournament anyway.  This is admittedly harder to do in the social media age but still does happen.  In the end, competitive players are looking exactly to break a tournament.

Personally I don’t mind a waiting period before a part becomes legal.  However, the ultimate test is still just tournament results in my opinion.
I understand this, and the same thing as you mentioned happened in Super smash Bros brawl where a lot of top players had kinda a pact to make the character Metaknight not look as OP to keep him legal. That's one of the reasons I said that it wasn't a big deal in standard. My point was that Gn if of the same archetype as Ig' and Hy, both of which are considered bannable. It makes sense why Gn is banned. Like we don't need to test every new disk for legality in classic since we've come to the understanding that the core disk and GT disk archetypes are too strong, so them as a whole are prebanned. That said, like I previously stated, if we find said piece to be fine in the meta, I do agree that it should be unbanned.

I would be hard-pressed to say that Gn is of the same archetype as Ig' and Hy. The fact that Gn is not motorized and does not have electronic components (significantly reducing its weight in comparison to Ig' and Hy) makes it a wholly different driver. Its tip's spin direction cannot be changed like with Hy and Ig' and cannot be used to perform the "infinite spin" exploit. Lumping Generate in with Ig' and Hy is the thinking that, I think, got Generate banned in the first place.
Jan. 03, 2020  1:42 AM
 
Another angle to look at the hypersphere for Hasbro and TT disk+Driver is that are we getting any more new “regular” drivers at this point?  Is every New driver going forward going to be these huge drivers?  And if so, does the classic playable list stop here?
Jan. 03, 2020  1:54 AM
 
(Jan. 03, 2020  1:42 AM)Shindog Wrote: Another angle to look at the hypersphere for Hasbro and TT disk+Driver is that are we getting any more new “regular” drivers at this point?  Is every New driver going forward going to be these huge drivers?  And if so, does the classic playable list stop here?

The gimmick of the hypersphere drivers is that, so unless they release switchstrike releases, yes.
Jan. 05, 2020  2:39 AM
 
(Jan. 03, 2020  1:54 AM)BuilderROB Wrote:
(Jan. 03, 2020  1:42 AM)Shindog Wrote: Another angle to look at the hypersphere for Hasbro and TT disk+Driver is that are we getting any more new “regular” drivers at this point?  Is every New driver going forward going to be these huge drivers?  And if so, does the classic playable list stop here?

The gimmick of the hypersphere drivers is that, so unless they release switchstrike releases, yes.

Can anyone explain how Hypersphere actually works? We don't have Hasbro sold locally (Philippines), so I'm kind of wondering how very wide bowl-shaped yet without electronics kind of Drivers can even work in a standard Beystadium.

Just to get back on topic, I've yet to receive my own copy of MD as well as the RBV set, but I really think that since Bullet and Octa (?) being allowed in the Classic format should also count as allowing Generate to participate, otherwise, it's simply a pre-banning based on "Disk+Driver parts bad, separate Forge Disks and pre-GT Drivers good" kind of thinking.
Jan. 05, 2020  2:45 AM
 
(Jan. 05, 2020  2:39 AM)Rouzuke Wrote:
(Jan. 03, 2020  1:54 AM)BuilderROB Wrote: The gimmick of the hypersphere drivers is that, so unless they release switchstrike releases, yes.

Can anyone explain how Hypersphere actually works? We don't have Hasbro sold locally (Philippines), so I'm kind of wondering how very wide bowl-shaped yet without electronics kind of Drivers can even work in a standard Beystadium.

Just to get back on topic, I've yet to receive my own copy of MD as well as the RBV set, but I really think that since Bullet and Octa (?) being allowed in the Classic format should also count as allowing Generate to participate, otherwise, it's simply a pre-banning based on "Disk+Driver parts bad, separate Forge Disks and pre-GT Drivers good" kind of thinking.

Hypersphere tips are just very wide and much more flat tip than most drivers. Hypersphere drivers kind of circle around inside a normal TT stadium, however they have great LAD which is probably why they were banned. However, you can tell they were clearly made for a hypersphere stadium. I don't think Gn is very OP so I really don't think it should've been banned as soon as it was
Jan. 05, 2020  3:31 AM
 
(Jan. 05, 2020  2:45 AM)JoMario67 Wrote:
(Jan. 05, 2020  2:39 AM)Rouzuke Wrote: Can anyone explain how Hypersphere actually works? We don't have Hasbro sold locally (Philippines), so I'm kind of wondering how very wide bowl-shaped yet without electronics kind of Drivers can even work in a standard Beystadium.

Just to get back on topic, I've yet to receive my own copy of MD as well as the RBV set, but I really think that since Bullet and Octa (?) being allowed in the Classic format should also count as allowing Generate to participate, otherwise, it's simply a pre-banning based on "Disk+Driver parts bad, separate Forge Disks and pre-GT Drivers good" kind of thinking.

Hypersphere tips are just very wide and much more flat tip than most drivers. Hypersphere drivers kind of circle around inside a normal TT stadium, however they have great LAD which is probably why they were banned.  However, you can tell they were clearly made for a hypersphere stadium.  I don't think Gn is very OP so I really don't think it should've been banned as soon as it was

Hmm, that looks quite bland (Hypersphere) considering the complexity of the Tips Hasbro has produced pre-Slingshock releases. I don't doubt that they are mainly playable only in the Hasbro Hypersphere Stadium.


I really think that Generate, however bulky, doesn't have that OP-ness that the electronic Drivers will have due to the weight being decimated as a simply THICC reverse Reboot, though I guess unless its actual wideness is larger than the widest Classic-allowed Layer, then it may be additional defense for the said banning. 

If Generate is pre-banned despite not even showing OP-ness in Classic, then it might reflect that every release that is not a simple Driver compatible with Forge Disks will indefinitely be auto-banned? With that logic, I would probably be inclined to agree since the metal-centered Plastic remake Layers were banned indefinitely despite having some serious design/gimmick backlashes.
Jan. 12, 2020  9:04 PM
 
Doing this in a video format so it's A. more believable and B. easier to showcase...

LazerBeamz and anyone else who may be in favor of unbanning Generate in Burst Classic please take a look at the following:


Spoiler: By launching normally as opposed to banking and by replacing Wolborg with a layer that trades defense for more stamina, Generate is able to beat basically any meta combination you throw at it. Hope this helps inform our competitive stance and feel free to reach out with questions.
Jan. 12, 2020  10:54 PM
 
(Jan. 12, 2020  9:04 PM)The Supreme One Wrote: Doing this in a video format so it's A. more believable and B. easier to showcase...

LazerBeamz and anyone else who may be in favor of unbanning Generate in Burst Classic please take a look at the following:


Spoiler: By launching normally as opposed to banking and by replacing Wolborg with a layer that trades defense for more stamina, Generate is able to beat basically any meta combination you throw at it. Hope this helps inform our competitive stance and feel free to reach out with questions.

Thanks for sharing this The Supreme One

While I do think using a layer with more stamina is beneficial to Generate's performance, it leaves it very susceptible to bursting on tall V2 combos like V2.Dm'/V2.Bl. In the video below (apologies in advance for the terrible quality), I used Kerbeus Generate against Victory Valkyrie Heavy Dimension' (Tall Stamina) (Sliding Shoot). Kerbeus should be harder to hit and make contact with on Gn since Gn is wider than K. In the video, V2 is able to burst it and push it out on Dm'. V2 can still be outspun and KO'd, but V2 does very well at bursting. Let me know what you all think.

Jan. 12, 2020  11:30 PM
 
(Jan. 12, 2020  10:54 PM)LazerBeamz Wrote:
(Jan. 12, 2020  9:04 PM)The Supreme One Wrote: Doing this in a video format so it's A. more believable and B. easier to showcase...

LazerBeamz and anyone else who may be in favor of unbanning Generate in Burst Classic please take a look at the following:


Spoiler: By launching normally as opposed to banking and by replacing Wolborg with a layer that trades defense for more stamina, Generate is able to beat basically any meta combination you throw at it. Hope this helps inform our competitive stance and feel free to reach out with questions.

Thanks for sharing this The Supreme One

While I do think using a layer with more stamina is beneficial to Generate's performance, it leaves it very susceptible to bursting on tall V2 combos like V2.Dm'/V2.Bl. In the video below (apologies in advance for the terrible quality), I used Kerbeus Generate against Victory Valkyrie Heavy Dimension' (Tall Stamina) (Sliding Shoot). Kerbeus should be harder to hit and make contact with on Gn since Gn is wider than K. In the video, V2 is able to burst it and push it out on Dm'. V2 can still be outspun and KO'd, but V2 does very well at bursting. Let me know what you all think.


Could you do the same test but with the Neptune layer on Generate?