I've been thinking this over for the past few days, but I haven't quite been able to put my thoughts down into words. I think Beylon has said pretty much what I've been thinking.

- I simply can't see how hiding the combos helps in any way beyond making the first match of the game just as random and frustrating as picking can be in the current game, and making further matches more unpredictable.

- Time concerns shouldn't be an issue - thirty seconds should be more than enough for both Bladers to see each others' combos, and selection time can be reduced somewhat since they don't have to pick from their entire array of parts, just three combos; therefore there is little to no time needed for assembly, and the choice should be at least a little simpler for each Blader.

- Remember that Beyblade is primarily a rock-paper-scissors match; think of a rock-paper-scissors game where it's first to 5. If the winner has to play the same hand until they lose, whoever wins the first round will always win the whole thing. Now, also remember that because it's a blind pick, the first round is also the least predictable. It's a step up from when you were stuck with the same matchup for the whole match, but it's still worse than giving both players a chance to try and outplay one another.

there was something else I was going to say but I forgot it >.>

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Threads and combos!

Spoiler (Click to View)

[LTD] MF Jade Horogium 85RSF
[LTD] RB / RSF Attack
[LTD] Ronin Genbull (Crystal Up) 85RF
MF-H Phantom (Attack) Cancer 85RB
MSF-H Wyvang Ifraid GB145RF {Alternative to Wyvang^2 with more Upper Attack}
MSF-H Genbull Genbull 85RSF {Improved version of the above Phantom combo}
Balro Begirados 100RF {LTAC with both Upper Smash and regular Smash}
[LTD] MF-H Lightning L-Drago 85RB {more controllable Lightning LTAC}
[LTD] Burn Orion 105SF {Destabilizer}

I think using words like "forcing players to change who they are as a person" is taking it a bit far. The way the game is played currently, players still scope out the habits and tendencies of their opponents during tournaments. It is not the case that this new format is adding the rule that beyblades are hidden. It's always been the case that you don't know what your opponent is going to use. Therefore, it isn't some new rule that only now forces players to have to scope out what other people are using. And even aside from that, if that were to be the case, it doesn't force them to become different people that scope things out, just like they aren't forced to all hit the gym to become stronger so they can have a more powerful launch. No matter what rules we create it will always be the case that players will look at what other players are using during the tournament and try to choose whatever way they think is the safest or easiest way to beat that person.

I don't think that gaining an advantage by gathering information being an aspect of a game is something that really forces someone to change who they are as a person. If anything, I just feel like different types of people have their own ways of gathering information.

- Remember that Beyblade is primarily a rock-paper-scissors match; think of a rock-paper-scissors game where it's first to 5. If the winner has to play the same hand until they lose, whoever wins the first round will always win the whole thing. Now, also remember that because it's a blind pick, the first round is also the least predictable. It's a step up from when you were stuck with the same matchup for the whole match, but it's still worse than giving both players a chance to try and outplay one another.

It is not the case that the person who wins the first round wins the match. Not every round will award the same amount of points. And, the round winner being locked into his beyblade, the person selecting which beyblade to switch to (if he/she even wants to switch) has to make his/her selection with this in mind.

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Credit for the avatar and sig go to Nic. THANK YOU!

START LIVING BEFORE YOU START DYING

I think using words like "forcing players to change who they are as a person" is taking it a bit far. The way the game is played currently, players still scope out the habits and tendencies of their opponents during tournaments. It is not the case that this new format is adding the rule that beyblades are hidden. It's always been the case that you don't know what your opponent is going to use. Therefore, it isn't some new rule that only now forces players to have to scope out what other people are using. And even aside from that, if that were to be the case, it doesn't force them to become different people that scope things out, just like they aren't forced to all hit the gym to become stronger so they can have a more powerful launch. No matter what rules we create it will always be the case that players will look at what other players are using during the tournament and try to choose whatever way they think is the safest or easiest way to beat that person.

Just to be clear, Kei used scoping as a reason why the deck should remain hidden. I was attacking his reasoning (sorry Kei, much loves) more than the rule itself. There are plenty of other arguments aside from scoping to support or deny the rule - but scoping is the one Kei used specifically, so this is what I was responding to.

So with this distinction made, I do actually agree with you. People should be able to scope all they want. I also think that this new format allows people plenty of room for scoping, regardless of whether the deck is hidden. The only difference is the degree of advantage one gains: and Kei has clearly illustrated how hiding the deck gives scopers a greater degree of advantage.

Kei gave two clear reasons why the deck should be remain hidden. The first (time consuming deck inspection) can easily be solved, unless I have missed something crucial. So if the second (to encourage scoping) was the only remaining reason for keeping the deck hidden, I would be totally against the rule. But Brad has explained that hiding the deck also increases the "intensity" of the battle, which I'm curious to know more about and will have to try myself. I imagine there are more reasons besides; but the politics of scoping really should not be one of them.

Scoping your opponent has certainly never been against the rules. But it is not actually part of the rules right now either and the only reason it even happens at all is because of the whole single-choice double-blind chance issue which this format otherwise appears to be a remedy for... Unless I missed something.

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Scoping also wouldn't be a part of the rules whether we go with the deck hidden or revealed in this format. I think it's just something that people will always do.

I don't think the only reason it happens is because of the single choice thing, or the double blind thing, or the combination of the two. I think generally speaking, most people who are seriously trying to win will try to figure out what their opponents use. It seems we agree on that though. What I don't understand is what the problem is with giving people who gather information that greater degree of advantage. I feel like that is part of what makes this game competitive.

Actually, I think not having the deck hidden gives people scoping other players more of an advantage. In my experience, most scoping is done while you aren't currently engaged in a match. It's done during the time you aren't playing and you are watching the other players during their matches. So if everyone has to reveal their combos at the start of a match it just makes that whole process way easier.

Also, I think that this format is not specifically a remedy for the single choice, double blind, chance issue, but rather a way to address many of the problems that people seem to have. For example, like I said earlier, I think it is a fair middle ground between both sides of the argument about whether or not burst/ko finishes should be worth two points. It also addresses the people who have a problem with seemingly every combo at a tournament using Revolve, or any similar points like this.

I need some clarification on something though. When you guys are talking about "inspection", do you guys mean literally a phase of the battle where both bladers inspect each other's combos, or do you guys mean just a general glance at what you can see while the match is starting?

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Credit for the avatar and sig go to Nic. THANK YOU!

START LIVING BEFORE YOU START DYING

I need some clarification on something though. When you guys are talking about "inspection", do you guys mean literally a phase of the battle where both bladers inspect each other's combos, or do you guys mean just a general glance at what you can see while the match is starting?

In Inguilt's format proposal, he literally means players inspecting one other's combos before battle, but most of us recognize that this isn't really necessary & will just take up time. Inspection in this sense just means that combinations are visible, and either the opponent recognizes their value or they don't.

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Beyblade Nation Discord Server | Meta Madness Beyblade Podcast
Combos I've developed:

Spoiler (Click to View)

Alter Chronos .8C.Ds (BST)
Genbull Genbull 90WD (STD)
Death Cancer E230RDF (STD)
Burn Aquario 90MF (LTD)
Lightning L Drago F: D (LTD)
Phantom Cancer ED145WD (LTD)
Burn Cancer B: D (LTD)
Saramanda Goreim LW160GF (Zero-G Sway)

For what it's worth, I agree with you; I'm not a huge fan of the more political aspects of tournament competition that involve scoping out other players. I don't necessarily have a problem with it, but I don't find it exciting the way a lot of other players do.

Concealed or presented deck, though, this aspect won't go away. Even if you have the opportunity to see a player's deck before the battle begins, you still can't change your deck's composition — thus, you're going to want to build an optimal counter-deck before the battle begins.

I agree with Scott's analogy to trading card games, where inspecting another player's deck before the battle would be absurd, but Pokémon also provides us with a decent analog: before the match you can see the six potential Pokémon a player might use, but they only select 4 and you don't see their movesets. This was something I tried to replicate in my Exhibition Format proposal, but it's too complex to scale to a full-sized tournament, and the number of competitively viable options in Beyblade is so low that you can kinda guess the pool of combo types that another player will be pulling from either way.

When I talk about "intensity", I'm talking about the fear of the unknown, in a sense. At a point in the match where I'm close to victory but haven't seen my opponent's third combo, I have to be thinking very carefully about the possibilities to ensure I'm not trapping myself in a bad situation. Meanwhile, if I'm the one who has an unrevealed trump card in my deck, I'm relishing it and looking for just the right time to reveal it. I don't actually expect there would be a ton of moments like this, considering the consistency of competitive combos, but I do think that leaving space for those moments to occur makes the game more exhilarating. I recognize that this might not be the priority for all players, though.

I'm late to this but I tried this system out yesterday and it was really fun. I like the strategy that you have to use. The game just seems so much more fun now. If we could incorporate this into formats besides Burst that would be great. Looking forward to the test run!

So I'm not really going to go to in depth right now, mainly because I am really tired, but I'm going to say what is fresh on my mind after participating in this new format today.

uhh.. how to start.

well going from the Deck Rotation format to the standard format right after, the standard format felt like a large downgrade to put it simply.
In standard everything is played to safe. it is always generally the same couple variations of good combos up against each other, usually stamina and "stamina attackers" (those slow moving beys with attack wheels or whatever they are called now. I'm kinda out of the loop for not playing in so long). choosing something out of the ordinary or an attack type is just kinda not worth the risk vs the reward.
Deck rotation completely fixes this IMO.

giving bursts or stadium outs 2 points instead of 1 allow for attackers to actually be utilized without to much stress, letting you either make great comebacks, or an early lead. then with the ability to switch out to something else keeps it so you wont have a one sided battle by having a singular bey against someone who took a direct counter to yours. it just makes things more dynamic.
also using unorthodox combos can have more use as it can throw a screwball, unlike in standard where you will must likely fizzle.
Thus, I believe that Deck Rotation will allow for a more diverse meta, and allows players like me (who like to use whacky combos instead of standard meta combos) to play more confidently

the only thing I don't quite like is the rule of not showing your opponent your beyblades. I think this is something that should be optional.
I am a very transparent blader, and geneally show/let people know what combos I'm using during the tournament, or decide what I want to take way in advance of my battle, while making some small adjustments to see what works as the day progresses. I like nice quick fun battles, instead of having to wait for my opponent to choose what to use for a couple minutes.
i actually prefer being open than all secretive in this case.

Edit: I like how I said I wouldn't go to in depth and then wrote this long wall of text

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Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts, lord Wolfblade! Cool to see the perspective of someone who literally just came back to the game after several years today and was able to do quite well with Attack in the Deck Rotation Format. Was quite impressive.

I will post a more complete response to Beylon and some of the others things that have been discussed in this thread since I last posted later, but here's a couple thoughts I posted in the latest Toronto thread about our Deck Rotation Format test event today:

Deck Rotation Format Test Run (Burst Format)
1st: 1234beyblade
2nd: Kei
3rd: Lani

Deck Rotation Format was a ton of fun. I ended up going 8-5 overall. Every loss that I can remember generally felt fair, and to me maybe that's the best indicator that this format is a good one. If I lost, it was because a) I didn't build my deck to be versatile enough which forced me into less than optimal choices or b) I didn't perform well enough with my combos in terms of my shooting technique.

In the second tournament using our regular format, I had a mixture of both losses in games I should have won, and losses where I just picked the wrong Beyblade outright. The first type are harder to accept but the fault generally lies upon me, but the latter are frustrating because you have no real opportunity to respond in a meaningful way beyond adjusting your launch technique. So much emphasis is placed on picking a single Beyblade that can defeat multiple things, but when playing against a great player there is often a huge difference between the combos they could choose, making it difficult to pick something that can cover all possibilities. Therefore, it becomes more important to try and discern patterns so you know when to take a risk and choose something that is more narrowly focused in its functionality. In Deck Rotation Format, this still plays an important part in the initial Beyblade selection and anticipation of what else your opponent's deck contains, but you have the ability also to respond. But the emphasis on finding versatile combos, discerning patterns, and trying to overcome type disadvantages over the span of an entire BeyBattle using only those two Beyblades are what makes our regular format great in it's own unique way.

I have a lot more to say about Deck Rotation Format–which I will post later in the Beyblade General forum–but I think in the end there is a place for both it and our regular format in WBO Organized Play. Each carries it's own set of advantages and disadvantages.

And just to add on to my comment about the reasons why I may have lost a battle in the Deck Rotation today; losing because you picked the wrong Beyblade initially is something that can happen, but with a proper deck you have every opportunity to make a comeback with the 2 Point KO/Burst Finishes available. There were several battles today where players made a comeback from being down 4-1 or even 4-0. Those battles where a comeback is made feel so good too because they generally as a result of a high level of Blader skill and awareness on the side of the winner.

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I actually already assumed that hiding your beyblades would be optional instead of mandatory. There has been plenty of times when I know what parts my opponent had and openly chose a combo that would narrow their options to choosing between some specific combos that I know I can beat because of a difference in skill. I think the argument is more about whether we are going to start forcing people to show their beyblades instead.

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Credit for the avatar and sig go to Nic. THANK YOU!

START LIVING BEFORE YOU START DYING

Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts, lord Wolfblade! Cool to see the perspective of someone who literally just came back to the game after several years today and was able to do quite well with Attack in the Deck Rotation Format. Was quite impressive.

No problem! most of my thoughts are just from memories of past tournaments as well as what I noticed people using today. since I don't know anything about any of the parts, I really had to go with intuition as to what combos did what.
I surprised myself with my use of Attack today haha.

And just to add on to my comment about the reasons why I may have lost a battle in the Deck Rotation today; losing because you picked the wrong Beyblade initially is something that can happen, but with a proper deck you have every opportunity to make a comeback with the 2 Point KO/Burst Finishes available. There were several battles today where players made a comeback from being down 4-1 or even 4-0. Those battles where a comeback is made feel so good too because they generally as a result of a high level of Blader skill and awareness on the side of the winner.

exactly what I was trying to say but much more well said.
the game did feel like it rewards skilled players a lot more, but I also would say that because it is less punishing to mistakes that it is more welcoming to inexperienced players all around

I actually already assumed that hiding your beyblades would be optional instead of mandatory. There has been plenty of times when I know what parts my opponent had and openly chose a combo that would narrow their options to choosing between some specific combos that I know I can beat because of a difference in skill. I think the argument is more about whether we are going to start forcing people to show their beyblades instead.

I agree.
"forcing" a persons hand to use a counter, in this way, is even more strategically in this format as you can bait with one beyblade, and then switch (after losing with said bait) to something you know can secure a win (works perfectly if you are at 3 or 4 points). something I was able to do.

I mostly just say that because throughout the tournament I was actually told to hide my beyblades, in which I said "what? no" and just put them in front of me on my side of the stadium. being told this is probably due to the rules in the OP stating:
"This deck is kept hidden from the opposing Blader."
"Both Bladers attach their first Beyblade in secret"

I was kinda more so suggesting that it be worded to be an option to keep it hidden, as well as projecting some of my dislike towards the stalling clause rule (which I have never liked)

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exactly what I was trying to say but much more well said.
the game did feel like it rewards skilled players a lot more, but I also would say that because it is less punishing to mistakes that it is more welcoming to inexperienced players all around

Good point! It's like the best of both worlds.

I agree.
"forcing" a persons hand to use a counter, in this way, is even more strategically in this format as you can bait with one beyblade, and then switch (after losing with said bait) to something you know can secure a win (works perfectly if you are at 3 or 4 points). something I was able to do.

The thing with this is that good players won't generally take your bait unless they themselves are trying to do the same thing to you. A good player will realize that continuing to fight a hard, but winnable match up that would allow them to score two points might be more valuable than switching to get one point, only to be countered by something that can score two points on them. Of course, the a lot of this depends on the context of the situation.

I mostly just say that because throughout the tournament I was actually told to hide my beyblades, in which I said "what? no" and just put them in front of me on my side of the stadium. being told this is probably due to the rules in the OP stating:
"This deck is kept hidden from the opposing Blader."
"Both Bladers attach their first Beyblade in secret"

I was kinda more so suggesting that it be worded to be an option to keep it hidden, as well as projecting some of my dislike towards the stalling clause rule (which I have never liked)

Yeah, the argument here is whether it should be mandatory or not, but I see what you're saying about making sure it is clear that it is an option should we decide to keep decks hidden (which I still do and will explain more why later). I think people today were just taken aback by your tendency to be transparent about what you are using since it is so uncommon (and seen as a disadvantage by most players).

Well, "Stalling Clause" as it was once known kind of doesn't exist anymore since everything is double blind. No matter what, this aspect of the game will always be present since it is the only fair way to begin a Beyblade battle. Some people select their Beyblades more quickly than others, but I can respect players who want to take a little bit of time to consider their options too. In the regular format because the single Beyblade you choose is so paramount, and in Deck Rotation because considering, formulating, and adapting your entire deck strategy versus every opponent does deserve some thought for most players before jumping into a battle.

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The thing with this is that good players won't generally take your bait unless they themselves are trying to do the same thing to you. A good player will realize that continuing to fight a hard, but winnable match up that would allow them to score two points might be more valuable than switching to get one point, only to be countered by something that can score two points on them. Of course, the a lot of this depends on the context of the situation.

very true.

Yeah, the argument here is whether it should be mandatory or not, but I see what you're saying about making sure it is clear that it is an option should we decide to keep decks hidden (which I still do and will explain more why later). I think people today were just taken aback by your tendency to be transparent about what you are using since it is so uncommon (and seen as a disadvantage by most players).

that is fair, I tend to read into things a bit lol

really I just think people should be able to play how the want to play. many people like to be a bit more secret, and some like me like to be open.
both of these types of play open up different strategies of playing, and id say should be up to the discretion of the player, as to what he wants to do.

I certainly know that I would not enjoy mandatorily have to hide my beyblades, but I also know that I wouldn't like it if I mandatorily having to keep them out in the open (even I sometimes like to hide the combo as a surprise )

Other then all that I do realize one smaaaaaall fault of Deck Rotation
Winning combinations.
because some people may switch up their three combos every match or so, it can be hard to remember how many different variations you used.
this is something small, that can easily be fixed by something like.. using a notebook to keep track of the combos as you use them

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Why would you dislike having to hide your combinations...?

Why would you dislike having to hide your combinations...?

because I like being open with what I am using?
I'm different

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Whether hidden or revealed, we have to mandate one or the other in order to guarantee an even-playing field for all players and to avoid a situation where more experienced players can easily take advantage of less experienced players. That's why the rules I wrote state that you must come to the battle with your deck already completed, and that you keep your deck hidden during the match.

Whether hidden or revealed, we have to mandate one or the other in order to guarantee an even-playing field for all players and to avoid a situation where more experienced players can easily take advantage of less experienced players. That's why the rules I wrote state that you must come to the battle with your deck already completed, and that you keep your deck hidden during the match.

with that said, if I was to walk up to the stadium, with my three beys not hidden. would that be a problem?
I understand the risks involved, but it is just something of personal preference (more then anything else) that I have always done

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Whether hidden or revealed, we have to mandate one or the other in order to guarantee an even-playing field for all players and to avoid a situation where more experienced players can easily take advantage of less experienced players. That's why the rules I wrote state that you must come to the battle with your deck already completed, and that you keep your deck hidden during the match.

with that said, if I was to walk up to the stadium, with my three beys not hidden. would that be a problem?
I understand the risks involved, but it is just something of personal preference (more then anything else) that I have always done

If the rule is blind selection, you would be breaking the rules, so yes. Not having this rule leaves openings for others to abuse the rules (e.g. presenting a fake deck selection, similar to the deception tactics many players used before we switched to double-blind selection).

If the rule is blind selection, you would be breaking the rules, so yes. Not having this rule leaves openings for others to abuse the rules (e.g. presenting a fake deck selection, similar to the deception tactics many players used before we switched to double-blind selection).

can't even make an acceptation for little ol' me?

IMO, that feels like something that can be fixed by the judge going up to each blader and watching them confirm their three blades (wouldn't take any extra time really).
also if someone is tricked by an opponents deception tactics, that id say that is their lose for playing those mind games?
not to say that being deceptive like that isn't a bit sleazy.

idk. I haven't been part of the community for a long time, so I'm a bit out of touch (again, just going by what I remember and what I saw yesterday in tournament).

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If the rule is blind selection, you would be breaking the rules, so yes. Not having this rule leaves openings for others to abuse the rules (e.g. presenting a fake deck selection, similar to the deception tactics many players used before we switched to double-blind selection).

can't even make an acceptation for little ol' me?

IMO, that feels like something that can be fixed by the judge going up to each blader and watching them confirm their three blades (wouldn't take any extra time really).
also if someone is tricked by an opponents deception tactics, that id say that is their lose for playing those mind games?
not to say that being deceptive like that isn't a bit sleazy.

idk. I haven't been part of the community for a long time, so I'm a bit out of touch (again, just going by what I remember and what I saw yesterday in tournament).

Because we can't observe every tournament and our tournaments are run by volunteers, selecting rules that are easy and unambiguous to enforce is also an important part of the rules development process. Areas where there are potential "exceptions" or wiggle-room within the rules are undesirable for this reason.

Because we can't observe every tournament and our tournaments are run by volunteers, selecting rules that are easy and unambiguous to enforce is also an important part of the rules development process. Areas where there are potential "exceptions" or wiggle-room within the rules are undesirable for this reason.

Fair enough.

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I am a relatively new player to Beyblade, I only started playing when Burst was introduced. So i really wanted to express my thoughts on this new format.

I played in the Toronto trial tournament on the weekend and I thought it was really fun. One thing that I really dislike about Beyblade is that sometimes (especially before Odin was banned) it felt like matches would always come down to shot strength - and as a relatively new female player, I could never win because my upper body/arm strength just wasn’t comparable and it was pretty disheartening.

After the Odin ban things got better, but I still feel like mostly conservative combos were played, especially in my case - and when I first started out, I loved playing attack! But lately it’s felt really difficult to do so (since Valkyrie is the best attack layer and its teeth are so problematic). But with the deck format, it definitely gave a lot more incentive to use attack layers, and I used my precious pink Valkyrie layer several times during the tournament haha. I noticed in our second tournament on the day, people seemed more open about using attack types too, with Excalibur being a heavy contender (for myself as well) and that was awesome to see!!

I felt like as someone who needs to rely more on strategy than shot strength, this format was a lot more fun for me… I really enjoyed trying different combinations, and I felt like I got use out of a greater range of my parts (which has been a big problem for me personally - buying things and never using them is a bad feeling, importing parts from Japan is expensive).

As for concealing/revealing your deck, I think it’s probably obvious by my comments at the tournament lol but I am pro concealing. I really like the element of watching your opponents and gauging their moves and building your tactics accordingly. I find it even more fun over time, when you start getting to know a player’s strategy over several months… I was able to have some really satisfying wins last weekend by careful observation of people over time. And as a pretty new judge it makes things a lot easier if rules are unambiguous and easy to follow!

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Bey Brad came with 2 girls, and left with 3, what a legend.

I played in the Toronto trial tournament on the weekend and I thought it was really fun. One thing that I really dislike about Beyblade is that sometimes (especially before Odin was banned) it felt like matches would always come down to shot strength - and as a relatively new female player, I could never win because my upper body/arm strength just wasn’t comparable and it was pretty disheartening.

I felt like as someone who needs to rely more on strategy than shot strength, this format was a lot more fun for me

I really don't want to get involved, but I have to say that I've never felt at a disadvantage in Beyblade for being a female. Launching is really all about practice; I don't think gender plays any role in how well you can do it.

In any case, it's great to hear that the event was a success. I'm warming up to the idea of double blind selection, but the fact that the loser can pick a new combination while the winner can't could present some issues, particularly if players start to intentionally lose their first match in order to force their opponent into a less-desirable situation.

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Beyblade Nation Discord Server | Meta Madness Beyblade Podcast
Combos I've developed:

Spoiler (Click to View)

Alter Chronos .8C.Ds (BST)
Genbull Genbull 90WD (STD)
Death Cancer E230RDF (STD)
Burn Aquario 90MF (LTD)
Lightning L Drago F: D (LTD)
Phantom Cancer ED145WD (LTD)
Burn Cancer B: D (LTD)
Saramanda Goreim LW160GF (Zero-G Sway)

My opinion changed drastically...

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would this be limited to burst or for all