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MFB: Standard :: Primer and Random Thoughts Thread

Dec. 04, 2013  6:54 AM
 
:: MFB: Standard ::
Primer and Random Thoughts Thread

Welcome to the primer and random thoughts thread for the MFB: Standard format! In this format, Metal Fight Beyblades are used (all parts are legal), and battles are conducted in the BB-10 Attack Type Stadium!

If you want more detail about what the Standard format is, keep reading! If you just want to talk about the format in general, simply post here! Remember, while you may discuss random thoughts pertaining to the Standard format, you need to follow the all the rules of the forum so you don't spam!


:: What is the Standard Format? ::


The MFB: Standard format is the longest-running Metal Fight Beyblade format for WBO-sanctioned tournaments! Most WBO tournaments use this format, largely due to the fact that the Standard metagame is easily the most developed of the Metal Fight Beyblade formats.

:: What Beyblade parts can I use? ::


All Metal Fight Beyblade parts are legal in this format! That means everything from the original Metal Fight Beyblade beys all the way up to the most recent Zero-G/Shogun Steel releases is fair game!

:: What stadium do I use? ::


All tournaments for the MFB: Standard format will use the BB-10 Attack Type Stadium, as shown here:

[Image: BB-10_1.PNG]
A clear BB-10

[Image: BB-10_2.PNG]
A light blue BB-10

The reason this stadium is used is because it is one of the most fair stadiums currently available for every type of Beyblade:
  • It has actual exits instead of pockets or walls, which makes it easier to tell when an attack type gets a KO.
  • It has a good wall-to-exit ratio, which is good for defenders and stamina types because they can be "wall saved" instead of getting KOed a fair amount of the time.
  • It does not have a flat bottom, which is good because the slopes ensure more consistent contact between the Beyblades.
  • It has a tornado ridge of a reasonable height, meaning it can catch Beyblades without always stopping them from exiting the stadium.
This stadium has only been released in Asia, meaning one does have to buy this stadium online, but for those who are interested in becoming a serious WBO tournament goer, this is an essential and very worthwhile purchase.


With that, welcome (back) to the Standard format! If you have any questions or random thoughts regarding this format, post them here!
Dec. 04, 2013  2:52 PM
 
This is SO COOL!

I'm super excited! XD We need to fill this thing with new threads! Eee

Question... is it possible to ban anything from standard format?
Dec. 04, 2013  8:38 PM
 
(Dec. 04, 2013  2:52 PM)theblackdragon Wrote: Question... is it possible to ban anything from standard format?

It's possible, yeah, but only if there was something that was hopelessly and undoubtedly broken.

As an example, back when the Maximum Series was just released, Basalt was so ridiculously heavy and powerful that the metagame became "Basalt" and "Things that beat Basalt" (the latter of which being a very small list at the time). A number of people have looked back and acknowledged that Basalt probably should have been banned at that time, since literally nothing even came close to its power level.

Right now, I think Standard is doing really well! I can't really think of a part that's truly dominating (at least to a ban-worthy state), and the competitive customs list is the longest it's been in a very long time.

I'm guessing you're thinking about F230, yeah? IIRC, your meta very much is F230 all day every day, isn't it, haha? (you kids and your orange F230s)
Dec. 04, 2013  8:51 PM
 
F230 is so overrated. Madoka's Spirit got 1 win our last tournament using Saramander Saramander E230GCF vs. Shining God MS's F230 setup. that was the only time F230 made an appearance in the tournament. There should never be anything banned besides illegal combos ie: Basalt/Diablo...
Dec. 04, 2013  9:27 PM
 
Man, I swear this was based off of Before the Big Bang, haha.

But I really like this idea, I'll definitely experiment with some of these "bannings" during my time as a Host. Grin
Dec. 04, 2013  10:16 PM
 
It is not over rated, I'd like information on how the battle went down... But I love BB-10 XD
Dec. 04, 2013  10:31 PM
 
(Dec. 04, 2013  10:16 PM)DrPepsidew Wrote: It is not over rated, I'd like information on how the battle went down... But I love BB-10 XD

All she was doing was a tornado stall and as his went up she steam rolled him out of the stadium. She doesn't even like to play anymore but we needed her so I gave her a combo I thought she could handle and it worked lol. But steam rolling the F230 is my favorite way to kill it.
Dec. 06, 2013  2:06 AM
 
Coach: F230 is absolutely not overated. It is, however, overpowered.

It's swept 4 NC tournaments in a row. NC tournaments are hard to sweep. If it was "steam rolled" out of the stadium, it either wasn't Dragooon F230, didn't have GCF/CF, or Shiny was having a hard time launching.

It is almost impossible to counter in Zero-G, and very, very difficult to counter in BB-10.

MD, VA, and NC are all experienced places with F230, and the tournament results don't lie. When someone spams F230, they win. It happened 4 times around here, and in Maryland, some newbie who had never placed before showed up with an orange F230, and beat Stars, Aurapeo, Geester, and Sniper all with one F230 combo. He went undefeated.

That's broken. Even in BB-10, only selective Attackers in the hands of skilled bladers can take it down. Even those can be very unreliable. No stamina type can beat it, Defense type can beat it, no balance type can beat it (save Genbull Dragooon T125GCF on occasion), and really the only Attacker that can beat it is MF-M Bahamdia Dragooon BD145LRF.

IN Zero-G, it is literally uncounterable unless you use another F230 combo. Many players say that simple Stamina can take it down, but these are the players who don't know how to launch. If you know how to launch, you're set. You don't have to think, you don't have to test, you don't have to work. It's an abomination. We've actually had players quite the game because our meta was so plagued with F230 that tournaments became pointless.

If you think it's overrated, just try something... take MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230CF to a Zero-G tournament, weak launch against Sway Attack, bank (deeper than BB-10, with the slope of the stadium) against left-spin stamina, and straight shot against anything else. That's the only combo you have to use. If you don't place first, I'll be seriously surprised.
Dec. 06, 2013  2:08 AM
 
He is right. I doubt I will ever use F230 again unless its in Zero-G, too much recoil for my taste.
Dec. 06, 2013  2:56 AM
 
Recoil?

What was your EXACT combination?
Dec. 06, 2013  2:58 AM
 
Genbull^2 F230GCF and Genbull Dragooon F230GCF
Dec. 06, 2013  3:51 AM
 
(Dec. 06, 2013  2:06 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Shiny was having a hard time launching.
Dec. 06, 2013  5:18 AM
 
(Dec. 04, 2013  8:38 PM)Ingulit Wrote:
(Dec. 04, 2013  2:52 PM)theblackdragon Wrote: Question... is it possible to ban anything from standard format?

It's possible, yeah, but only if there was something that was hopelessly and undoubtedly broken.

As an example, back when the Maximum Series was just released, Basalt was so ridiculously heavy and powerful that the metagame became "Basalt" and "Things that beat Basalt" (the latter of which being a very small list at the time). A number of people have looked back and acknowledged that Basalt probably should have been banned at that time, since literally nothing even came close to its power level.

Right now, I think Standard is doing really well! I can't really think of a part that's truly dominating (at least to a ban-worthy state), and the competitive customs list is the longest it's been in a very long time.

I'm guessing you're thinking about F230, yeah? IIRC, your meta very much is F230 all day every day, isn't it, haha? (you kids and your orange F230s)

As far as I've seen, F23 is "hopelessly and undoubtedly broken."

Anyone who states otherwise has either: a) not seen it launched correctly, b) not seen it used with the right parts, or c) not seen it SPAMMED.

In a metagame with skilled, knowledgable bladers, if F320 is spammed it WILL result in an entirely one-sided meta. Like you said, the metagame in North Carolina and Maryland (the two places where F230 has actually been spammed) is basically "F230 and things that beat F230," and yes, at the moment, the list of the latter is really only limited to two specific things in BB-10 (mid-low height opposite-spin Attack, and same-spin B : D in some cases), and virtually non-existant in Zero-G.

Some regions haven't been hit with the F230 bomb yet, but mark my words, when someone finds out they can win by spamming it, they WILL experience a terrible shift in the metagame.

In NC and VA, we usually agree not to play with F230 just because of how much it destroyed our metagame before. We've got some pretty darn smart people here (including the winners of Crusade 2 and Revolution), and we've worked tirelessly to find feasible counters.

Guess what? Hasn't happened yet. Some people argue that it isn't overpowered because they beat it with left-spin Stamina when the other use wasn't launching properly.

Zero-G:

Weak launch against Sway Attack
Bank against Left-spin BWD/TB/MB stamina
Straight shot against everything else

BB-10

Stall hard against everything

These are the correct launches to use. Unfortunately, select players on the East Coast found out how, and it destroyed our meta. DESTROYED it. We've been trying to find a counter to F230 in Zero-G for nearly 6 months now, and we still haven't got anything reliable.

Saying that left-spin Stamina can beat F230 in Zero-G, is like saying Duo W145WD can take down Flash W145MF. It's true, but only if the user throwing out Flash is totally ignorant of how he can make his custom win.

I'm sorry, this just really sets me off. This is coming from a guy who has seen F230 spammed by competent players who know how to use it in a highly developed meta full of advanced, intelligent bladers. I really don't want to see the tournament scene up farther north go up in flames when the F230 bomb hits... I'm telling you right now, IF you have players who know how to use it (notice how I'm stressing the fact that knowing how to launch it is extremely important), it won't be pretty.

Whew! Glad to get all that out of my system. XD
Dec. 06, 2013  11:35 AM
 
Wow, ok I guess you are pretty passionate about it. We don't have near that problem over here and Yuko is the; or at least one of the creators of F230CF when he used it at the NA championships. I don't like things flat out banned. Too many rules doesn't help get bladers, and obviously neither does the F230 dominating your meta.

So I'd like to recommend the committee to encourage what has been going on and allow hosts to be able to ban certain parts from their tournaments. I see DrPepsiDew has been banning F230 as well as TBD did in Indiana, correct? With our Michigan meta, I'm not worried at all. So I have no problem allowing it here.
Dec. 08, 2013  5:02 AM
 
We didn't actually ban it, we just all agreed not to use it.

You're technically not allowed to enforce the rule, but in most situations bladers will withhold from using parts that the community frowns upon. F230 did such a number on our game that none of us (except Dark_Mousy) have pulled more than 1 or 2 F230 combos for months.

We're all so adapted to Dark using it that we've begun using whatever we have to counter F230. He actually lost today because Stormscorpio1 pulled a Balro combo on him, and then I took him down with same-spin Bearing Drive (pretty much the only two counters that work in BB-10). So it is stoppable in BB-10 if multiple, skilled, well-stocked players gang up on the F230 user, but it takes a while and isn't easy by any means.

The problem is when people abuse it. You guys have no problem with it, because your players acknowledge that it should be used sparingly, and, when it's not spammed too much, it won't be as dominant (plus, IIRC you guys have quite an Attack-heavy metagame, which will help keep it in check. GO ATTACK!). It's the same thing in VA. However, here in NC, we had a few select players who decided to use it way too much, and in Zero-G to top it all off. The problem is, with the right technique, Dragooon F230 is pretty much unbeatable in Zero-G. At least in BB-10 there are things that can win. In Zero-G, nothing competitive (save other F230 combos) can take it down with decent consistency.

Fortunately, the only remaining F230 user in our events has decided to turn it down for a while after seeing all the damage it did, so we're gonna have quite a clean metagame for now. I just honestly don't want to see it happen to anybody else. Confused
Dec. 08, 2013  7:03 PM
 
I specifically remember someone, th!nk I believe, saying that while Basalt was competitive, he said the meta was Basalt and things that countered Basalt. Same with Libra. People don't realize that this is the same problem. Many members have said that Basalt should have been banned. We can't make the same mistake again.
Dec. 09, 2013  7:03 PM
 
Amen brother.
Dec. 09, 2013  10:55 PM
 
Can we simply ban it from the Zero-G stadium? As it is not near as dominant in the bb10 style stadiums. Like I said I really am for no ban but I don't do Zero-G tournaments frankly because I believe the bb10 battles are far more competitive and fun... but that's beside the point.

If the NC & Virginia communities are this strongly against it I'm really curious to hear from other top communities like Toronto and other international ones. It seems Italy has quieted down some from what I can tell in my short time back. I'm curious if the lack of competition in the Zero-G format has an influence in their being less tournaments.

This all hypothetical but I wasn't a fan when it first came out at all either and if the F230 is making it even less fun well then something just might need to happen
Dec. 09, 2013  11:43 PM
 
It makes the game less fun. Another point I wanted to bring up.
Even if I'm practicing ALONE, it just isn't fun playing against it. In a tournament situation, where your rank and points are at stake, losong against it can be frustrating, and an overall nuisance.
Dec. 10, 2013  2:45 PM
 
I've looked over this thread for a while now and while I recognize everyone's individual and collective ideas, I notice there seems to be a significant trend here. We are specifically talking about one meta game's current unfortunate situation. Above all of that though, what I have discovered along with a few others here is that the issue is F230CF/GCF. It really boils down to that because if you go and ban Dragooon F230, you're left with every other F230 right spin combo there is left to abuse and you will have the same problem again. Also, Dragooon F230 isn't an issue because it isn't like "Dragooon ____F230anythingelseotherthanCForGCF" is winning. It's primarily the CF/GCF variants.

In addition to all of this being said, F230 combos are not anywhere near as dominant or detrimental to the overall gameplay or meta game of any community with legit attack combos, in addition to the bladers themselves, running around. They get steamrolled on the tornado ridge. I own two F230s myself and though they both work amazingly well despite one being the hasbro red one and one Takara one that I know is exactly the same as the one theblackdragon describes. I test on my own and also have a testing partner who excels in attack so I am sure of this. The attack types have no issues with this at all.

My final note would be that in terms of F230 in the Zero G meta game, the solution I have discovered through testing is that it is easiest to just take out F230 by just matching the height with a combo of your own. If you're attacking the wheel head-on, you avoid the force smash or any force from the lower synchrom wheel and the combo, which likely has Dragooon on as the determining factor, will be forced to take significant damage. I could possibly provide video testing sometime in the coming week when I have my testing partner here as I would like the tests to be as realistic and valid as possible. We are both skilled so that won't be an issue of skill credibility in the videos. More than likely they will be in the BB-10 for the first set and I can provide a Zero G variant soon after. I'm just really against banning this part because it is not that serious of a threat as people make it out to be. When the solution is as simple as switching up your style temporarily or even just for one match to use an attack combo and avoid your losses, I feel like this is just taking a shortcut. As someone who owns very good F230s and stopped using them after I found out how fragile they are and how easy it is to KO them along with just finding better combos overall, I can't see this ban doing anything but taking a useful part to some away from the game entirely for the benefit of what seems to be a select group. I am open to any ideas or thoughts anyone may have concerning this post. I just feel like we are spending too much time on F230 removal and countering when we have a plethora of other parts to test and explore.
Dec. 10, 2013  10:36 PM
 
Well, I'll refer to Basalt and Libra again. It makes the meta boring.
And it is not just one meta game.
Dec. 11, 2013  3:18 PM
 
(Dec. 10, 2013  10:36 PM)DrPepsidew Wrote: Well, I'll refer to Basalt and Libra again. It makes the meta boring.
And it is not just one meta game.

Honestly, the whole Basalt and Libra issues were nothing compared to this. Those were actual chunks of metal vs. that plastic F230 has. The wheels themselves changed the meta game because they were the heaviest and closest to an almost perfect yet overpowered wheel like what Diablo could have been if it had been evenly proportioned. Not all F230s share the same traits of being overpowered, although they aren't, otherwise there would be F230s everywhere and nothing would really have a chance to contend with it. This will never be the case because we are talking about Metal vs. Plastic and with things like Wyvang and Flash still around, I don't understand how people are having such an issue with this when all you have to do is attack the plastic head on. Once you do enough damage to an F230, the track itself can't even remain stable enough to not rattle after one significant hit. You can't tell me no one has figured that out.

Lastly, if it isn't just one or two (the second being VA) meta games being seriously affected for whatever strange reason that may be, why hasn't this become a metagame wide issue? From what I can see on the East Coast and other places, it may be abused (if that) but they are nowhere near as dominant as it is being portrayed. It seems more people are upset about the fact that they can't use their old spin a stamina bey and watch it spin and spin and spin for a whole 5 minute match because of a part that coincidentally shuts that down. I am a balance Blader myself and this part is pretty balanced from what I can see. Had I not found the combos I use now, I would probably still be using it despite how much I dislike it.

Perhaps it's just me but I rather enjoy taking down parts or specific combos while other have struggles with them. The level of satisfaction is unlike any other especially when you win and your opponent realizes the easy way out doesn't work on everyone. Not only does it teach them a lesson, you both get a better understanding of what makes your style significant as well as pick up on your flaws. I say just let it play itself out. Skilled bladers come and go but one thing always remains the same; every combo has it weaknesses. F230CF/GCF combos are no different in any stadium.
Dec. 12, 2013  12:11 AM
 
When it comes to F230 in the Zero-G stadium, it'd be good if that conversation was kept to the Zero-G subforum so we can keep up with it there.

As far as F230 in Standard goes, I think you're making a very hasty generalization about the Standard metagame regarding F230. Just because a majority of your players decided to spam F230 at the same time does not mean F230 was the cause of its own dominance, but rather said dominance appears to have been a by product of simultaneous preference. This reminds me of an example:

For awhile in Italy, Gravity was THE competitive part for the Standard metagame. It was on their top tier list in every single category (that is, Attack/Defense/Stamina/Balance), and (from what I understand) was the single largest tournament threat. I cannot speak for them, but I'd wager good money that if you asked them about their meta back then, they'd probably have said that it was "Gravity" and "Customs that beat Gravity." However, despite its overwhelming dominance in that meta, I do not remember there being any discussion about Gravity being in any way broken.

Was Gravity a phenomenal, exceedingly competitive part? Absolutely, and yes, its competitiveness did end up dominating an entire metagame (Italy). Was it Basalt-level broken, where you could travel to a completely new meta, spam MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145CS or MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170CS and be nearly guaranteed a win? Absolutely not.

I'm seeing this being the case with F230. F230 is definitely a very good part, such that it does have the power to solo a tournament. However, it is far from the only part that can do that, and it's far from unbeatable. The NC metagame appears to have just been the victim of every blader becoming comfortable with F230 over the other competitive parts, and thus it ended up being everyone's safe/common pick for tournaments. That could have happened with any of the other exceedingly competitive parts out there, especially when they are a part of a successful balance custom, and its popularity =/= being broken.

Unless a part is so overwhelmingly good that you could travel to ANY unknown metagame and spam it to nearly-undefeated victory every time, it is not broken, regardless of how popular it is in A SINGLE/VERY FEW metagame(s).

I hope that makes sense; if I need to elaborate further I can.
Dec. 12, 2013  12:52 AM
 
Exactly what Ingulit said, when I went to Michigan, I used both MSF-M Genbull Genbull F230(Orange)GCF and MSF-M Genbull Dragooon F230(Orange)GCF and they lost to some bad combos(what other people would say, personally, I like them) so saying F230 is sort of broken is sort of laughable.
Dec. 12, 2013  1:15 AM
 
Yo, F230CF/GCF is not a problem in the Standard Format. What people are talking about is in the Zero-G Stadiums ...
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