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MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion

Aug. 31, 2015  3:42 PM
 
MF-L Duo Cancer SA165EWD vs Genbull Genbull SR200TB
Genbull:1/10(1 OS)
Duo:9/10(9 OS)
Genbull Win Rate:10%
Sep. 01, 2015  5:22 AM
 
(Aug. 31, 2015  1:23 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote: I hate being picky with terms but Revizer Killerken E230 RF definitely fits the terms of "mobile defense" over being anti-attack. If I can figure out how to fix my string launcher I would love to do some tests with Flash, but as of right now it might be a little while sorry.

I don't particularly like the term "mobile defense" and it really shouldn't be coined as a new term. Defense is defense. Defense combos aren't immobile as well and I feel that's a misconception that they are immobile. Just about all rubber tips (CS/RB/RSF/RDF/RS) can be launched very hard and banked to achieve aggressive and 'mobile' movement.


(Aug. 31, 2015  1:31 AM)Mitsu Wrote: As much as I like E230RF and how it performs against right-spin attack, it has very little versatility and can really seem to do well against them. Not stamina, not stationary defense, not left-spin attack. Great defense, but I'm still very unsure about it being on the tier-list.

LMAO Wrote:That RF combo technically counts as an Anti-Attacker by the way.

It's still defense, dude. Aggressive, but still defense. It is very incapable of knocking out stamina (as I saw today with Hato and pryus10000) with no smash and little metal-on-metal contact, so it wouldn't classify it as anti-attack.

edit: ugh, stop it thunder dome

To the first point, I would like to say that the Competitive Combos list is NOT a Tier list. I think the distinction to point out here, is that the Competitive Combos list is a list that consists of strong combinations that can compete with other strong combinations of different types and generally are very versatile since they can defeat many other combos in the same list. On the other hand, a Tier List is a gauge of power of being best at one particular thing and is classified within it's own type only. And we all know there isn't one best combo. Something will always beat something else due to the nature of the game and the complexity of the customization.

It is true that the (BD145/E230) RF combos have better defense than the combos currently on the list. And if you were to somehow measure the defensive qualities of the combos then sure they'd be some of the best. But... are they really competitive? Can you bring them to a tournament today and win with them? Most likely not... Stamina combos are and have been dominating the meta game for a long time... and it's already a risk to use an attack type... so the risk of even contesting an attack type with an even more niche combo that beats really only one combo on the list (pure attack wyvang combos... because come on when's the last time you've seen a flash?)... is really really REALLY risky. The other defensive tips on the list are competitive because they can beat attack types consistently and have lots of versatility in other situations against non-attack types. The Defense (BD145/E230) RF combo is more of an anti-meta combo... well it would be if attack types were even meta... but they're not...

To the second point. I personally would say that the (BD145/E230) RF combos have strong defensive properties, but with some caveats. The sheer momentum of the RF tip can pretty much push KO a lot of stamina combos (albeit not consistently) but it is still possible. This is why I feel there's that grey area of what that combo type actually is. But I feel like it's inconsistency is what defines it as a pure defense and not a balance type. While it can sometimes beat stamina, it often doesn't.


The combo is very specific and only uses a certain set of parts:

Gasp (Click to View)

(Aug. 31, 2015  1:48 AM)LMAO Wrote: In certain cases, yeah it can if you launch hard enough as well as straight launch in the middle. It should work like the Girago Genbull combination I mentioned.

To touch on this. I want to introduce a new term. Consistency. While Defense BD145RF does share traits of Anti-Attack, there is one thing that separates the two, which is: how consistently it can beat stamina combos. The Defense BD145RF might sometimes knock out the opposing stamina combo if it hits just right and it goes dead center and knocks the stamina combo out of the exit... but there are many more times where the stamina combo will be hit against a wall, and then the Defense BD145RF will flat out lose due to the lack of spin and momentum left to finish the job. Conversely, Anti-Attack combos can consistently knock out a stamina combo due to it's additional smash attack, which can knock the Stamina combo from just about any position and at lower spin. If a combo can consistently perform it's duties as it's role, then it should be classified as that type.

Finally: I feel like the name Anti-Attack needs to be changed. All defense combos are really defined as being anti- of the attack type... A more appropriate name would be something like... a Tanky Attacker... since it is basically an attack type with some defensive capabilities that allows it to stay within the arena but since it's an attack type, it's descriptive name reinforces that it can beat stamina types.

I have some suggestions about the Competitive Combos list that I will be suggesting sometime soon that can really change how it's structured since it reclassifies what's currently there. I am developing a post about it.

Finally, these are some OCD stuff that I saw on the list currently that has bothered me forever (mostly nitpicking)...

Unhappy (Click to View)

Whew.
Sep. 01, 2015  7:11 PM
 
(Sep. 01, 2015  5:22 AM)juncction Wrote:
(Aug. 31, 2015  1:23 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote: I hate being picky with terms but Revizer Killerken E230 RF definitely fits the terms of "mobile defense" over being anti-attack. If I can figure out how to fix my string launcher I would love to do some tests with Flash, but as of right now it might be a little while sorry.

I don't particularly like the term "mobile defense" and it really shouldn't be coined as a new term. Defense is defense. Defense combos aren't immobile as well and I feel that's a misconception that they are immobile. Just about all rubber tips (CS/RB/RSF/RDF/RS) can be launched very hard and banked to achieve aggressive and 'mobile' movement.
Mobile defense and defense are two very different things, and the term "mobile defense" is definitely necessary to separate the two. Sure, you can launch most defensive tips aggressively, but that's not how traditional Defense types work. Saying traditional passive Defense and mobile Defense are the same thing is like saying a screwdriver and a hammer are the same thing - they both drive fasteners into a material to hold things together, but they do it in completely different ways. Sure, you could beat a nail in with a screwdriver, but it wouldn't do the job very well. The same applies to RF defense vs traditional defense; they both beat Attackers by resisting attacks, but mobile defense is devoted to avoiding and reducing the impact from hits, by moving in a similar pattern as the attacker to reduce relative velocity. Conversely, traditional Defense types try to stay as close to the center of the Stadium to avoid being knocked out, and generally are launched to remain still.

(Sep. 01, 2015  5:22 AM)juncction Wrote:
(Aug. 31, 2015  1:31 AM)Mitsu Wrote: As much as I like E230RF and how it performs against right-spin attack, it has very little versatility and can really seem to do well against them. Not stamina, not stationary defense, not left-spin attack. Great defense, but I'm still very unsure about it being on the tier-list.

LMAO Wrote:That RF combo technically counts as an Anti-Attacker by the way.

It's still defense, dude. Aggressive, but still defense. It is very incapable of knocking out stamina (as I saw today with Hato and pryus10000) with no smash and little metal-on-metal contact, so it wouldn't classify it as anti-attack.

edit: ugh, stop it thunder dome

To the first point, I would like to say that the Competitive Combos list is NOT a Tier list.
Referring to the CC list as "the tier list" is just a shorthand for "top-tier list". It doesn't really mean anything other than an interchangeable term with "Competitve Combos list"; you don't need to read into it so much. Smile

(Sep. 01, 2015  5:22 AM)juncction Wrote: It is true that the (BD145/E230) RF combos have better defense than the combos currently on the list. And if you were to somehow measure the defensive qualities of the combos then sure they'd be some of the best. But... are they really competitive? Can you bring them to a tournament today and win with them? Most likely not... Stamina combos are and have been dominating the meta game for a long time... and it's already a risk to use an attack type... so the risk of even contesting an attack type with an even more niche combo that beats really only one combo on the list (pure attack wyvang combos... because come on when's the last time you've seen a flash?)... is really really REALLY risky. The other defensive tips on the list are competitive because they can beat attack types consistently and have lots of versatility in other situations against non-attack types. The Defense (BD145/E230) RF combo is more of an anti-meta combo... well it would be if attack types were even meta... but they're not...
The point of the Competitive Combos list is not to say what combos will win in a given metagame. It is to list the strongest possible combos for each type, or at least the most competitively viable ones. Just because Stamina is common in your area doesn't mean that a combo that can't handle Stamina well should not be on the list. A dedicated Defense type is still a solid pick in an Attack-heavy meta, or against a Blader you know is fond of Attack types, and is certainly still competitively viable, given the right conditions.

(Sep. 01, 2015  5:22 AM)juncction Wrote: To the second point. I personally would say that the (BD145/E230) RF combos have strong defensive properties, but with some caveats. The sheer momentum of the RF tip can pretty much push KO a lot of stamina combos (albeit not consistently) but it is still possible. This is why I feel there's that grey area of what that combo type actually is. But I feel like it's inconsistency is what defines it as a pure defense and not a balance type. While it can sometimes beat stamina, it often doesn't.
RF Defense is not Anti-Attack. Although it can be aggressive enough to land KOs on Stamina types occasionally, unlike Anti-Attack, it's not intended to KO stuff. Anti-Attack is designed to KO or at least resist Attack types, while also handling Stamina to an extent by launching aggressively. RF Defense is designed to avoid encounters with Attack types, and negate their advantage of high speed to reduce the impact from collisions. The two types of Defense are very similar looking, but the way they are used is completely different.

(Sep. 01, 2015  5:22 AM)juncction Wrote: The combo is very specific and only uses a certain set of parts:

Gasp (Click to View)
Duo is a natural pick for mobile Defense given its excellent Stamina and very low recoil. Death isn't as strong in either of those areas, with more recoil and worse Stamina, with only a small increase in mass to make up for it.

(Sep. 01, 2015  5:22 AM)juncction Wrote:
(Aug. 31, 2015  1:48 AM)LMAO Wrote: In certain cases, yeah it can if you launch hard enough as well as straight launch in the middle. It should work like the Girago Genbull combination I mentioned.

To touch on this. I want to introduce a new term. Consistency. While Defense BD145RF does share traits of Anti-Attack, there is one thing that separates the two, which is: how consistently it can beat stamina combos. The Defense BD145RF might sometimes knock out the opposing stamina combo if it hits just right and it goes dead center and knocks the stamina combo out of the exit... but there are many more times where the stamina combo will be hit against a wall, and then the Defense BD145RF will flat out lose due to the lack of spin and momentum left to finish the job. Conversely, Anti-Attack combos can consistently knock out a stamina combo due to it's additional smash attack, which can knock the Stamina combo from just about any position and at lower spin. If a combo can consistently perform it's duties as it's role, then it should be classified as that type.
This is part of the previous point I made on RF defense not being Anti-Attack. RF Defense simply isn't meant to KO Stamina; it's more or less completely dedicated to stopping Attackers. RF Defense isn't Anti-Attack because it does not act like Anti-Attack.

(Sep. 01, 2015  5:22 AM)juncction Wrote: Finally: I feel like the name Anti-Attack needs to be changed. All defense combos are really defined as being anti- of the attack type... A more appropriate name would be something like... a Tanky Attacker... since it is basically an attack type with some defensive capabilities that allows it to stay within the arena but since it's an attack type, it's descriptive name reinforces that it can beat stamina types.
The name Anti-Attack reflects the type's direct, aggressive approach towards handling Attack. Anti-Attack's primary goal is to put the smackdown on Attack types, with KOing Stamina as more of a handy secondary ability. Also, when it comes to Balance types or hybrids, we could discuss for months whether a certain combo is more of "an attack type with some defense" or "a defense type that can also attack". It's best to stick with the existing definition and terminology; Anti-Attack = a thing that beats Attack and Stamina using heavy, aggressive parts on a flat rubber tip. It doesn't really matter whether it's Attack with some Defense or Defense with some Attack; it's more important that we don't go around changing things up and confusing everyone.

(Sep. 01, 2015  5:22 AM)juncction Wrote: And why can't you use CS/RSF on Duo BD145?
Off the top of my head, I can only answer one of the many questions you had on the Defense section, sorry. I know that CS/RSF got booted from the Duo BD145 list because, given that Duo is already so light in comparison to Synchromes, it can't handle top-tier Attack types on anything but the tankier, stronger Defense tips.

Also, regarding all the inconsistencies in the listing of tips and sections, the list is updated in a rather haphazard fashion, with stuff getting tacked on and removed without really paying too much attention to the details of the formatting. Also, the drafts for the list before each update generally receive tweaks and contributions from several users across a fairly long span of time, so any changes may or may not be consistent in formatting. I certainly wouldn't mind if it was cleaned up a little, though, haha.

respond to a wall of text with another wall of text, I guess Wut!?
Sep. 01, 2015  8:08 PM
 
Sorry for just responding juncction, I saw your post earlier but didn't really have time to respond to it due to having to go to school. Well here's my input on your comments

(Sep. 01, 2015  5:22 AM)juncction Wrote: I don't particularly like the term "mobile defense" and it really shouldn't be coined as a new term. Defense is defense. Defense combos aren't immobile as well and I feel that's a misconception that they are immobile. Just about all rubber tips (CS/RB/RSF/RDF/RS) can be launched very hard and banked to achieve aggressive and 'mobile' movement.

You can get some defensive tips to be launched slightly aggressive although it definitely is not even close to the movement you get by using RF. Both variants are quite different as well. RF defense moves around trying to avoid/reduce the impact of a hit while the more standard defense sits in the middle and try to avoid being knocked out. But in conclusion I really don't think the "standard" defensive tips can achieve the same "mobile" movement at all (and certainly don't do it nearly as well).

(Sep. 01, 2015  5:22 AM)juncction Wrote: To the first point, I would like to say that the Competitive Combos list is NOT a Tier list. I think the distinction to point out here, is that the Competitive Combos list is a list that consists of strong combinations that can compete with other strong combinations of different types and generally are very versatile since they can defeat many other combos in the same list. On the other hand, a Tier List is a gauge of power of being best at one particular thing and is classified within it's own type only. And we all know there isn't one best combo. Something will always beat something else due to the nature of the game and the complexity of the customization.

It is true that the (BD145/E230) RF combos have better defense than the combos currently on the list. And if you were to somehow measure the defensive qualities of the combos then sure they'd be some of the best. But... are they really competitive? Can you bring them to a tournament today and win with them? Most likely not... Stamina combos are and have been dominating the meta game for a long time... and it's already a risk to use an attack type... so the risk of even contesting an attack type with an even more niche combo that beats really only one combo on the list (pure attack wyvang combos... because come on when's the last time you've seen a flash?)... is really really REALLY risky. The other defensive tips on the list are competitive because they can beat attack types consistently and have lots of versatility in other situations against non-attack types. The Defense (BD145/E230) RF combo is more of an anti-meta combo... well it would be if attack types were even meta... but they're not...

To the second point. I personally would say that the (BD145/E230) RF combos have strong defensive properties, but with some caveats. The sheer momentum of the RF tip can pretty much push KO a lot of stamina combos (albeit not consistently) but it is still possible. This is why I feel there's that grey area of what that combo type actually is. But I feel like it's inconsistency is what defines it as a pure defense and not a balance type. While it can sometimes beat stamina, it often doesn't.
Please don't throw the word "meta" around to much here. Meta in beyblade is completely different to most other games. One tournament might be one "meta" and the next could be completely different. And don't even get me started on different regions and how diverse they are. Tell me how some of the defensive tips currently have an advantage out side of beating attack? Last time I checked most of them died to any form of stamina (except maybe CS, but CS is a trash tip for defense so I'm not sure why you would use it in the first place). Also I don't see how it's "anti-meta" in any way. Those combos are definitely pure defense.

As Cake also stated RF defense is not anti-attack and it is not intended to beat stamina at all. It is DEFENSE except it just has a different method of not getting KO'ed by attack compared to some of the more "standard" options.

(Sep. 01, 2015  5:22 AM)juncction Wrote:
(Aug. 31, 2015  1:48 AM)LMAO Wrote: In certain cases, yeah it can if you launch hard enough as well as straight launch in the middle. It should work like the Girago Genbull combination I mentioned.

To touch on this. I want to introduce a new term. Consistency. While Defense BD145RF does share traits of Anti-Attack, there is one thing that separates the two, which is: how consistently it can beat stamina combos. The Defense BD145RF might sometimes knock out the opposing stamina combo if it hits just right and it goes dead center and knocks the stamina combo out of the exit... but there are many more times where the stamina combo will be hit against a wall, and then the Defense BD145RF will flat out lose due to the lack of spin and momentum left to finish the job. Conversely, Anti-Attack combos can consistently knock out a stamina combo due to it's additional smash attack, which can knock the Stamina combo from just about any position and at lower spin. If a combo can consistently perform it's duties as it's role, then it should be classified as that type.

You've probably heard this a lot at this point but Anti-Attack and "Mobile" Defense are completely different. Defense isn't meant to knock out stamina.

(Sep. 01, 2015  5:22 AM)juncction Wrote: Finally: I feel like the name Anti-Attack needs to be changed. All defense combos are really defined as being anti- of the attack type... A more appropriate name would be something like... a Tanky Attacker... since it is basically an attack type with some defensive capabilities that allows it to stay within the arena but since it's an attack type, it's descriptive name reinforces that it can beat stamina types.

The name is perfectly fine because it suitably describes what the combination does. Tanky Attacker sounds really dumb because it's not just a heavy attacker.

Also about all your questions about the tier list. The one posted is an unofficial draft of one. I think your being to picky right now considering it's only a draft. It will be cleaned up eventually before it ever becomes official.
Sep. 01, 2015  9:15 PM
 
Cake Wrote:respond to a wall of text with another wall of text, I guess Wut!?

Haha... replying to a wall of text is harder than I thought.



Cake Wrote:Referring to the CC list as "the tier list" is just a shorthand for "top-tier list". It doesn't really mean anything other than an interchangeable term with "Competitve Combos list"; you don't need to read into it so much. Smile

The point of the Competitive Combos list is not to say what combos will win in a given metagame. It is to list the strongest possible combos for each type, or at least the most competitively viable ones. Just because Stamina is common in your area doesn't mean that a combo that can't handle Stamina well should not be on the list. A dedicated Defense type is still a solid pick in an Attack-heavy meta, or against a Blader you know is fond of Attack types, and is certainly still competitively viable, given the right conditions.

I guess I just read into it a lot because it's much more complicated than a Tier List. Speechless

Thunder Dome Wrote:Please don't throw the word "meta" around to much here. Meta in beyblade is completely different to most other games. One tournament might be one "meta" and the next could be completely different. And don't even get me started on different regions and how diverse they are. Tell me how some of the defensive tips currently have an advantage out side of beating attack? Last time I checked most of them died to any form of stamina (except maybe CS, but CS is a trash tip for defense so I'm not sure why you would use it in the first place). Also I don't see how it's "anti-meta" in any way. Those combos are definitely pure defense.

My apologies if I'm just flinging meta around. I think the term is similar and different altogether.

Defensive tips that beat things other than Attack? Uhh.

RDF on BD145 ties or wins sometimes against stamina EWD/BGrin in opposing spin.
CS on E230 sometimes wins against lower stamina types of the same spin.
RB on E230 when launched aggressively sometimes wins against F230 via KO.

are a few examples.

Cake Wrote:The name Anti-Attack reflects the type's direct, aggressive approach towards handling Attack. Anti-Attack's primary goal is to put the smackdown on Attack types, with KOing Stamina as more of a handy secondary ability. Also, when it comes to Balance types or hybrids, we could discuss for months whether a certain combo is more of "an attack type with some defense" or "a defense type that can also attack". It's best to stick with the existing definition and terminology; Anti-Attack = a thing that beats Attack and Stamina using heavy, aggressive parts on a flat rubber tip. It doesn't really matter whether it's Attack with some Defense or Defense with some Attack; it's more important that we don't go around changing things up and confusing everyone.

I suppose it is a bit confusing to throw out different terms and cause more confusion. Although I found that the confusion is generally more so prevalent with newer members to the community.

Cake Wrote:Off the top of my head, I can only answer one of the many questions you had on the Defense section, sorry. I know that CS/RSF got booted from the Duo BD145 list because, given that Duo is already so light in comparison to Synchromes, it can't handle top-tier Attack types on anything but the tankier, stronger Defense tips.

Ah I see, I guess I just have to read further back. I'm always very interested in how the list develops. Then again, the list has pretty much been finalized since the last parts have been released already.

Cake Wrote:Mobile defense and defense are two very different things, and the term "mobile defense" is definitely necessary to separate the two. Sure, you can launch most defensive tips aggressively, but that's not how traditional Defense types work. Saying traditional passive Defense and mobile Defense are the same thing is like saying a screwdriver and a hammer are the same thing - they both drive fasteners into a material to hold things together, but they do it in completely different ways. Sure, you could beat a nail in with a screwdriver, but it wouldn't do the job very well. The same applies to RF defense vs traditional defense; they both beat Attackers by resisting attacks, but mobile defense is devoted to avoiding and reducing the impact from hits, by moving in a similar pattern as the attacker to reduce relative velocity. Conversely, traditional Defense types try to stay as close to the center of the Stadium to avoid being knocked out, and generally are launched to remain still.

Thunder Dome Wrote:You can get some defensive tips to be launched slightly aggressive although it definitely is not even close to the movement you get by using RF. Both variants are quite different as well. RF defense moves around trying to avoid/reduce the impact of a hit while the more standard defense sits in the middle and try to avoid being knocked out. But in conclusion I really don't think the "standard" defensive tips can achieve the same "mobile" movement at all (and certainly don't do it nearly as well).

I can see it both ways and I get the concept and distinction between the two. But on the same token I think it could potentially lead to confusion. Back then, RF was used before and it was still just called Defense. BD145MB was on defense for some time and it was also called Defense even though it's method of beating attack was different.

I guess that got me thinking though. If a combo's method of conforming to a particular type is different, does it warrant a need to sub classify within type on the list or even in discussion? There are examples of it on the List. For instance: Stamina types and Spin Equalizers all in one category as Stamina. But shouldn't they be sub classified? The stamina of a TB/MB combo is far superior stamina to most of the combos on the list, but of course that dynamic changes if battling something in opposing spin.

Thunder Dome Wrote:You've probably heard this a lot at this point but Anti-Attack and "Mobile" Defense are completely different. Defense isn't meant to knock out stamina.

I know this, I said it as well that the RF defense combo is a defense combo and not an Anti-Attack in the first post. But also, just because it isn't meant to knock it out, doesn't mean it doesn't sometimes do that.

Cake Wrote:Also, regarding all the inconsistencies in the listing of tips and sections, the list is updated in a rather haphazard fashion, with stuff getting tacked on and removed without really paying too much attention to the details of the formatting. Also, the drafts for the list before each update generally receive tweaks and contributions from several users across a fairly long span of time, so any changes may or may not be consistent in formatting. I certainly wouldn't mind if it was cleaned up a little, though, haha.

It's really messy. Unhappy

Thunder Dome Wrote:Also about all your questions about the tier list. The one posted is an unofficial draft of one. I think your being to picky right now considering it's only a draft. It will be cleaned up eventually before it ever becomes official.

I was referring to the one on the official post here:
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Competit...bos--20385
Sep. 01, 2015  10:52 PM
 
That's what I was referring to as well. And I'm fairly certain they were still discussing that list as it is far from perfect combination wise anyway. E230 RB Ko'ing F230? I don't think so. If they see you are going for an aggressive launch they will just weak launch and you won't be able to do anything to it. I do realize that you said sometimes but sometimes isn't really a good example to the things those defense types can do out side of defense. That's like saying sometimes RF can out spin. And the list definitely isn't finalized. Earlier this year some members were trying to work on it and now we are trying again.

Yeah but sooner or later we can clean up that list. I feel it's more important to make a more accurate and updated list right now though but I do see your concern for it.
Sep. 15, 2015  6:28 PM
 
ATTACK



Wyvang

{MSF{-H}} Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (R2F/RF/LRF)
{MSF{-H}} Wyvang Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] (R2F/RF/LRF)

Balro

{MSF{-H}} Balro Balro (CH120/D125/T125/W145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Bahamdia

{MSF-M/MSF-L} Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 (LRF/R2F/RF)

Flash

MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzeb/Uranus) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (R2F/RF/LRF)

DEFENSE


Duo

MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 RF

Revizer/Killerken

MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 RDF
MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) Killerken BD145 RF
MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken) E230 (RF/RDF)

Genbull

MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230 (RDF/RF)
MSF-H (Revizer/Genbull) Genbull BD145 (RDF/RF)


STAMINA



Duo

Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD/TB)
Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) B: D
Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 160 PD
Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SA165[Normal] EWD
MF(-M/-H) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 MB


Dragooon

{MSF{-H}} (Revizer/Genbull/Killerken/Girago) Dragooon SA165[Normal] EWD
{MSF-L} (Girago/Revizer/Killerken) Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] EWD
{MSF-L} (Genbull/Girago/Killerken) Dragoon 90/100/105EWD/WD
{MSF-(H/L)} Killerken/Genbull/Girago Dragooon B: D


BALANCE

(Girago/Genbull/Killerken) Genbull E230 MB
Girago Girago E230 MB
MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken) E230CS
MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230CS

MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 (RSF/RDF)
MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85 MF
(MSF-L) Balro Balro BD145MF
MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzeb) W145 MF

{MF{-L}} Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230* (CF/GCF)
{MSF{-L}} (Genbull/Girago/Revizer/Killerken) Dragooon F230* (CF/GCF)
{MSF{-L}} Genbull Genbull F230* (CF/GCF)

MF-H Diablo (Kerbecs/Unicorno II) BD145 RF
MSF-(H/L) Girago Girago BD145 RF
MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145 RF

MSF-H (Wyvang/Genbull Killerken) Dragooon BD145 RDF
{MSF-H} (Revizer/Killerken) Dragooon SA165[Normal] RDF
Genbull Dragooon (T125/D125) GCF
(MSF-H) Genbull Genbull (TH170/SR200) CS




* F230 must be one of the orange TAKARA TOMY ones from ZGRBV3, not the brown or red ones.

With new burst releases soon i really think we should finalize the tier list. I just updated it. What does everyone think of it. Does anybody think something should be added?
Sep. 15, 2015  6:48 PM
 
I think its perfect like that.
Sep. 15, 2015  7:16 PM
 
It looks good, aside from a few things.

Why was MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165 (Zero-G Attack) RF/R2F/LRF removed? I don't remember any discussion on it recently but I haven't been reading too closely as of late. On a similar note why is MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145RF classified as Balance? It's more of an Attack type than an Anti-Attack type since I can't imagine it would be more effective against other Attack Types than using a normal Attack Type as opposed to Girago (though since Synchroms outweigh literally everything else using a Synchrom Attacker against a Flash Attacker is basically Anti-Attack).

On the topic of Anti-Attack, does Diablo really still deserve a spot? The majority of what made it a great Wheel back in its time was the fact that it outweighed all of its competition, which is almost the exact opposite of true now. Girago Girago is heavier and from what I've heard has less recoil, so it can probably stand up to Wyvang much better than Diablo. Unless Diablo hits considerably harder (I only have 1 Girago and have actually never seen the combo in action...) I don't see why it should remain up there. It also hasn't been in a Winning Combo in like a year (and one of the most recent three was a "Stock Beyblades only House Rules" tournament).

{MSF-(H/L)} Killerken/Genbull/Girago Dragooon B:D needs to go up for Stamina as well. Revizer could be added as a bottom wheel as well but I would be opposed to it due to its awful Balance.
Sep. 15, 2015  7:22 PM
 
(Sep. 15, 2015  7:16 PM)Wombat Wrote: It looks good, aside from a few things.

Why was MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165 (Zero-G Attack) RF/R2F/LRF removed? I don't remember any discussion on it recently but I haven't been reading too closely as of late. On a similar note why is MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145RF classified as Balance? It's more of an Attack type than an Anti-Attack type since I can't imagine it would be more effective against other Attack Types than using a normal Attack Type as opposed to Girago (though since Synchroms outweigh literally everything else using a Synchrom Attacker against a Flash Attacker is basically Anti-Attack).

On the topic of Anti-Attack, does Diablo really still deserve a spot? The majority of what made it a great Wheel back in its time was the fact that it outweighed all of its competition, which is almost the exact opposite of true now. Girago Girago is heavier and from what I've heard has less recoil, so it can probably stand up to Wyvang much better than Diablo. Unless Diablo hits considerably harder (I only have 1 Girago and have actually never seen the combo in action...) I don't see why it should remain up there. It also hasn't been in a Winning Combo in like a year (and one of the most recent three was a "Stock Beyblades only House Rules" tournament).

{MSF-(H/L)} Killerken/Genbull/Girago Dragooon BGrin needs to go up for Stamina as well. Revizer could be added as a bottom wheel as well but I would be opposed to it due to its awful Balance.
Forgot about MSF-H Wyvang Dragoon BD145RF but i really think it should be classified as attack because Bahamdia is also up there for attack and the only difference is that Wyvang is on it and it is used for attack. I don't know why it was up there for Balance. I still think Diablo works for anti-attack but i will do testings on it anyway.

Also, I was thinking of adding SW145, but i think it needs more testing first.
Sep. 15, 2015  7:29 PM
 
Can I suggest one combo who I figured to be a good balance to add on the list. I used that in two tournaments(one finished first and the second finished 3rd) and I never lose with this combo yet in tournament. no big testing done on it but I think some of you could be interested in.

MSF Genbull Genbull T125MF

I have to test some other Height but at now its one of the best I found. it fail against left spin(stamina), didn't used it against Left spin attacker tough.

I just see Flash W145MF is in balance, not supposed to be an attacker?!
Sep. 15, 2015  7:33 PM
 
I only have a few suggestions for change atm:
(Sep. 15, 2015  6:28 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote: Revizer/Killerken
MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken) E230 (CS/RF/RDF/RB)

Genbull

MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230 (CS/RDF/RB/RF)

Is there any particular reason RF isn't on Revizer Genbull and RB isn't on Revizer^2/Killerken?
Also, I would suggest moving E230CS setups to Balance or removing them entirely; CS just doesn't work well enough for pure Defense.

(Sep. 15, 2015  7:29 PM)loyd87 Wrote: Can I suggest one combo who I figured to be a good balance to add on the list. I used that in two tournaments(one finished first and the second finished 3rd) and I never lose with this combo yet in tournament. no big testing done on it but I think some of you could be interested in.

MSF Genbull Genbull T125MF

I have to test some other Height but at now its one of the best I found. it fail against left spin(stamina), didn't used it against Left spin attacker tough.

I just see Flash W145MF is in balance, not supposed to be an attacker?!
Flash W145MF is Balance because it both KOs and OSes things to win matches; you launch aggressively against Stamina, and Tornado Stall anything on a rubber tip.

And if that combo is top-tier worthy, go get testing! I have a pretty neat combo I've been working on, but I've been too lazy to do all the tests I need to Tongue_out
Sep. 15, 2015  7:34 PM
 
(Sep. 15, 2015  7:29 PM)loyd87 Wrote: Can I suggest one combo who I figured to be a good balance to add on the list. I used that in two tournaments(one finished first and the second finished 3rd) and I never lose with this combo yet in tournament. no big testing done on it but I think some of you could be interested in.

MSF Genbull Genbull T125MF

I have to test some other Height but at now its one of the best I found. it fail against left spin(stamina), didn't used it against Left spin attacker tough.

I just see Flash W145MF is in balance, not supposed to be an attacker?!
Yeah i think that would probably be good. @[Ocean] told me that Dragoon 90MF did really good against a lot of things a while ago, but i will post results on both soon. I think Genbull Genbull would do good with lower tracks like 85/90/100 also.

@[Cake] I was thinking of E230CS in Balance and think it should be in Balance because it doesn't do that well for Defense, and is a Defense/Stamina Hybrid.
Sep. 15, 2015  7:36 PM
 
Yeah it should be more agressive. but its mid height is particularly interesting because he can be agressive against lower track and higher track. But for sure I will test 85/90/100/W105(love this last one but not always that good hah)

I have already try dragoon 90MF, but IMO I think it missing something to be really strong. but pretty interesting combo. I prefer to make Genbull Dragoon 90EWD/BWD
Sep. 15, 2015  7:55 PM
 
E230CS is OK for pure defense, but totally not an RF or an RDF paired with E230. I'd definitely like to see it be moved to Balance as a Defense/Stamina hybrid as it's more fitting in that area. Do you guys agree?

Seriously a good list you made. With all these new Bursts that are scheduled to be released, I think we should definitely be finalizing the MFB tier-lists and focus a bit more on Burst. Smile Thanks!
Sep. 15, 2015  7:58 PM
 
I just moved E230CS to Balance.
Sep. 15, 2015  8:30 PM
 
Nice to see someone else bring up the tier list again, been a few pages since I posted the last edit. Here are my changes.
(Sep. 15, 2015  6:28 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote:
ATTACK



Wyvang

{MSF{-H}} Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (RF/R2F/LRF)
{MSF{-H}} Wyvang Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] (RF/R2F/LRF)

Balro

{MSF{-H}} Balro Balro (W145/D125/T125/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Bahamdia

{MSF-M/MSF-L} Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 (RF/R2F/LRF)

Flash

MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzeb/Uranus) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF)

DEFENSE


Duo

MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 RF

Revizer/Killerken

MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 (RDF/RF)
MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken) E230 (RDF/RF)

Genbull

MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230 (RDF/RF)
MSF-H (Revizer/Genbull) Genbull BD145 (RDF/RF)


STAMINA



Duo

Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) (230/TH170) (D/SD/TB)
Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) B: D
Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 160 PD
Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SA165[Normal] EWD
MF(-M/-H) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 MB


Dragooon

{MSF{-H}} (Girago/Genbull/Killerken/Revizer) Dragooon SA165[Normal] EWD
{MSF-L} (Girago/Genbull/Killerken/Revizer) Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] EWD
{MSF-L} (Girago/Genbull/Killerken) Dragoon 105/100/90 (EWD/WD)
{MSF-L} (Girago/Genbull/Killerken) Dragooon) B: D


BALANCE

(Girago/Genbull/Killerken) Genbull E230 MB
Girago Girago E230 MB
MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken/Genbull) E230CS

MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 (RSF/RDF)
MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85 MF
MSF-L Balro Balro BD145MF
MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzeb) W145 MF

{MF{-L}} Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230* (CF/GCF)
{MSF{-L}} (Genbull/Girago/Revizer/Killerken) Dragooon F230* (CF/GCF)
{MSF{-L}} Genbull Genbull F230* (CF/GCF)

MF-H Diablo (Kerbecs/Unicorno II) BD145 RF
MSF-(H/L) Girago Girago BD145 RF
MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145 RF

MSF-H (Wyvang/Genbull Killerken) Dragooon BD145 RDF
MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) Dragooon SA165[Normal] RDF
Genbull Dragooon (T125/D125) GCF
MSF-H Genbull Genbull (SR200/TH170) CS




* Generally the Orange F230 from Zero-G Random Booster 3 is recommended as they are all generally good although depending on the F230 a Brown from Zero-G Random Booster 3, a Red from Beserker Behemoth from a double-pack, or the Orange F230 from Hasbro's release of Bandid Genbu.
Suggested by juncction I made the tip choices look cleaner by keeping it consistent. For example every thing that had RF, R2F and LRF listed as bottoms are now in that order and finally I made some more consistency changes within the customizations to make everything look nicer and condensed a few things into one customization.

Also can Revizer seriously not be put on top of a mobile defense custom? That's another thing I changed because Revizer was listed as it could be a top chrome wheel for defense on RDF and since mobile defense's goal is to also defeat attack then I figured we could condense those two combinations into one. Also on everything I changed the track order from the highest track to the lowest track listed to keep it consistent. I also removed MSF-H from ____ Dragooon B:D, the weight isn't really that great for it considering it is a spin equalizer. Not to mention it won't help you at all from getting slammed across the room by attack. I also added Genbull to _____ Dragooon SA165 (Attack Mode) EWD.

Also I changed the part about the Orange F230. It really didn't seem right since I have seen some brown ones that are just as good so I thought it needed a nice change.
Sep. 15, 2015  8:36 PM
 
(Sep. 15, 2015  8:30 PM)Thunder Dome Wrote: Nice to see someone else bring up the tier list again, been a few pages since I posted the last edit. Here are my changes.
(Sep. 15, 2015  6:28 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote:
ATTACK



Wyvang

{MSF{-H}} Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (RF/R2F/LRF)
{MSF{-H}} Wyvang Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] (RF/R2F/LRF)

Balro

{MSF{-H}} Balro Balro (W145/D125/T125/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Bahamdia

{MSF-M/MSF-L} Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 (RF/R2F/LRF)

Flash

MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzeb/Uranus) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF)

DEFENSE


Duo

MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 RF

Revizer/Killerken

MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 (RDF/RF)
MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken) E230 (RDF/RF)

Genbull

MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230 (RDF/RF)
MSF-H (Revizer/Genbull) Genbull BD145 (RDF/RF)


STAMINA



Duo

Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) (230/TH170) (D/SD/TB)
Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) B: D
Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 160 PD
Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SA165[Normal] EWD
MF(-M/-H) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 MB


Dragooon

{MSF{-H}} (Girago/Genbull/Killerken/Revizer) Dragooon SA165[Normal] EWD
{MSF-L} (Girago/Genbull/Killerken/Revizer) Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] EWD
{MSF-L} (Girago/Genbull/Killerken) Dragoon 105/100/90 (EWD/WD)
{MSF-L} (Girago/Genbull/Killerken) Dragooon) B: D


BALANCE

(Girago/Genbull/Killerken) Genbull E230 MB
Girago Girago E230 MB
MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken/Genbull) E230CS

MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 (RSF/RDF)
MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85 MF
MSF-L Balro Balro BD145MF
MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzeb) W145 MF

{MF{-L}} Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230* (CF/GCF)
{MSF{-L}} (Genbull/Girago/Revizer/Killerken) Dragooon F230* (CF/GCF)
{MSF{-L}} Genbull Genbull F230* (CF/GCF)

MF-H Diablo (Kerbecs/Unicorno II) BD145 RF
MSF-(H/L) Girago Girago BD145 RF
MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145 RF

MSF-H (Wyvang/Genbull Killerken) Dragooon BD145 RDF
MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) Dragooon SA165[Normal] RDF
Genbull Dragooon (T125/D125) GCF
MSF-H Genbull Genbull (SR200/TH170) CS




* Generally the Orange F230 from Zero-G Random Booster 3 is recommended as they are all generally good although depending on the F230 a Brown from Zero-G Random Booster 3, a Red from Beserker Behemoth from a double-pack, or the Orange F230 from Hasbro's release of Bandid Genbu.
Suggested by juncction I made the tip choices look cleaner by keeping it consistent. For example every thing that had RF, R2F and LRF listed as bottoms are now in that order and finally I made some more consistency changes within the customizations to make everything look nicer and condensed a few things into one customization.

Also can Revizer seriously not be put on top of a mobile defense custom? That's another thing I changed because Revizer was listed as it could be a top chrome wheel for defense on RDF and since mobile defense's goal is to also defeat attack then I figured we could condense those two combinations into one. Also on everything I changed the track order from the highest track to the lowest track listed to keep it consistent. I also removed MSF-H from ____ Dragooon BGrin, the weight isn't really that great for it considering it is a spin equalizer. Not to mention it won't help you at all from getting slammed across the room by attack. I also added Genbull to _____ Dragooon SA165 (Attack Mode) EWD.

Also I changed the part about the Orange F230. It really didn't seem right since I have seen some brown ones that are just as good so I thought it needed a nice change.

That list seems good. I really like the part you changed about F230.
Sep. 15, 2015  9:54 PM
 
Thanks UltimateOrion for finally doing this!

Just a few things:

Are we sure about not adding LTSC Duo to the list as well? For me Duo ____ W105EWD is extremely good against Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF since it doesn't get KO'd because Duo always touches the BD145. In general also though, Duo LTSC is really good. A little more testing probably? I honestly believe it belongs on the tier list.

Also, Diablo still up there for Balance? Eh, I don't know about that since it doesn't perform as well as it used to, especially in Toronto.

Everything else looks pretty good!
Sep. 15, 2015  10:36 PM
 
(Sep. 15, 2015  8:30 PM)Thunder Dome Wrote: Nice to see someone else bring up the tier list again, been a few pages since I posted the last edit. Here are my changes.
(Sep. 15, 2015  6:28 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote: ~holy hades kerbecs that's a big quote~
Suggested by juncction I made the tip choices look cleaner by keeping it consistent. Also on everything I changed the track order from the highest track to the lowest track listed to keep it consistent.
Looking good - much cleaner and easier to read.

(Sep. 15, 2015  8:30 PM)Thunder Dome Wrote: Also can Revizer seriously not be put on top of a mobile defense custom? That's another thing I changed because Revizer was listed as it could be a top chrome wheel for defense on RDF and since mobile defense's goal is to also defeat attack then I figured we could condense those two combinations into one.
Revizer^2 has really bad Stamina. I think that Revizer Killerken (which actually has pretty good Stamina) is required for Mobile Defense in order to compensate for the stamina loss from RF vs RDF/RSF/RB.

(Sep. 15, 2015  8:30 PM)Thunder Dome Wrote: I also removed MSF-H from ____ Dragooon BGrin, the weight isn't really that great for it considering it is a spin equalizer. Not to mention it won't help you at all from getting slammed across the room by attack.
Centralized mass can actually help spin equalization, or at least doesn't hurt it - a more centralized weight distribution means that the combo resists changes to rotational velocity less. In same-spin matchups, this is a bad thing, because contact with your opponent will slow you down, and you want to minimize your change in velocity from each impact. With opposite-spin matchups, particularly if your spin equalizer doesn't have great Stamina by itself, you want to reduce your combo's resistance to velocity changes, because that's what's keeping it alive - each collision with the opponent transfers a little energy in the form of rotational velocity, and you want to make sure that you can share energy as easily as possible, so you equalize spin as easily as possible. And a little Metal Face can help with recoil management (though it won't save you from an Attack type), especially on slightly more recoil-y wheels like Girago, Dragooon, and Genbull's underside/topside.

(Sep. 15, 2015  8:30 PM)Thunder Dome Wrote: I also added Genbull to _____ Dragooon SA165 (Attack Mode) EWD.
I personally don't like Genbull Dragooon (except on F230 or E230), but I know some people use it on that setup, so I guess I'm fine with it.

(Sep. 15, 2015  6:28 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote: * Generally the Orange F230 from Zero-G Random Booster 3 is recommended as they are all generally good although depending on the F230 a Brown from Zero-G Random Booster 3, a Red from Beserker Behemoth from a double-pack, or the Orange F230 from Hasbro's release of Bandid Genbu.
This really needs a rewrite before it goes on the official list... ...just try reading the middle part out loud.

Here's my try at a rewrite:
Competitive Customs List Wrote:* The orange F230 from Zero-G Random Booster 3 is recommended, though due to slight variations from part to part, other molds of F230 may perform equally well.
Sep. 15, 2015  10:55 PM
 
I never thought Revizer had that big of a stamina drop, or maybe that's just me. I think it should be able to outspin attack, but if someone could do testings (still no string launcher) that would be awesome.

Honestly every time I have tried using MSF-H/MSF-M/MSF I have felt it decreases it's chances of winning against the opposite spin direction. Although that's just my opinion, it would be nice to hear what some other people think about MSF-H/MSF-M/MSF and how the effect Spin-Equalization.

Yes, thank you so much for rewording my F230 statement. I knew it was pretty sloppy and rough, but I just kinda wanted to get an idea out there.
Sep. 15, 2015  11:01 PM
 
I just did some benchmarks.

MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF vs MF-H Flash Uranus CH120RF
Diablo:8/10(4 OS 4 KO)
Flash:2/10(2 KO)
Diablo Win Rate:80%

MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF vs MF-H Flash Uranus CH120(145 Mode)RF
Diablo:8/10(5 OS 2 KO)
Flash:2/10(2 OS)
Diablo Win Rate:80%

MSF-L Girago Girago BD145RF vs MF-H Flash Uranus CH120RF
Girago:10/10(5 OS 5 KO)
Flash:0/10
Girago Win Rate:100%

MSF-L Girago Girago BD145RF vs MF-H Flash Uranus CH120(145 Mode)RF
Girago:8/10(6 KO 2 OS)
Flash:2/10(1 OS 1 KO)
Girago Win Rate:80%

@[LMAO] I think it should be on there, but it needs more testing first. 100 works too.
Sep. 15, 2015  11:09 PM
 
(Sep. 15, 2015  11:01 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote: MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF vs MF-H Flash Uranus CH120RF
Diablo:8/10(4 OS 4 KO)
Flash:2/10(2 KO)
Diablo Win Rate:80%

MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF vs MF-H Flash Uranus CH120(145 Mode)RF
Diablo:8/10(5 OS 2 KO)
Flash:2/10(2 OS)
Diablo Win Rate:80%

MSF-L Girago Girago BD145RF vs MF-H Flash Uranus CH120RF
Girago:10/10(5 OS 5 KO)
Flash:0/10
Girago Win Rate:100%

MSF-L Girago Girago BD145RF vs MF-H Flash Uranus CH120(145 Mode)RF
Girago:8/10(6 KO 2 OS)
Flash:2/10(1 OS 1 KO)
Girago Win Rate:80%
Could you start doing 20 rounds of tests soon? I don't want to harp on it more than I have to but you really should be doing it, especially considering you are using Attack which can sometimes get odd results.

Also what were the procedures for this set of tests? Any alternating launches, parts swap, etc. Those are ridiculously important considering you were using two aggressive customizations. Just in case anyone needed it here is little revisit to "Posting Test Results Thread".

Although testing is testing, it is nice that someone took the initiative to do a comparison between Diablo and Girago Girago. Thanks!
Sep. 15, 2015  11:20 PM
 
I'd say Diablo Anti-Attack should still be up there. I feel as it's kind of like this. They're both anti-attack; a combination of both Attack and Defense. Diablo shows more of the attack portion of Anti-attack and then vice-versa with Girago Girago because of more weight. TBH, there are still times I find Girago Girago can't KO Duo stamina at a mid-height, whereas Diablo can. But this is just my perspective and what I found from doing testings.
Sep. 15, 2015  11:39 PM
 
(Sep. 15, 2015  11:20 PM)Mitsu Wrote: I'd say Diablo Anti-Attack should still be up there. I feel as it's kind of like this. They're both anti-attack; a combination of both Attack and Defense. Diablo shows more of the attack portion of Anti-attack and then vice-versa with Girago Girago because of more weight. TBH, there are still times I find Girago Girago can't KO Duo stamina at a mid-height, whereas Diablo can. But this is just my perspective and what I found from doing testings.

I suppose to add on to this.

I too find that Diablo has a much easier and consistent time knocking Duo out than Girago.
But Girago has an easier time defending against Wyvang.

They both still have their uses and are both still viable.
But I have to admit, the difficulty in using Diablo is much much greater.
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