MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion
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I thought you were talking about adding it to E230.
Genbull BD145 has defensive problems with CS for whatever reason. It needs a full-rubber Bottom to perform well.
Not to say BD145CS variants should never be added to the Balance section (something to seriously consider for a future iteration), but from a pure Defense standpoint the rock-solid Revizer/Killerken synchroms are really the only ones that can make great use of CS.
Genbull BD145 has defensive problems with CS for whatever reason. It needs a full-rubber Bottom to perform well.
Not to say BD145CS variants should never be added to the Balance section (something to seriously consider for a future iteration), but from a pure Defense standpoint the rock-solid Revizer/Killerken synchroms are really the only ones that can make great use of CS.
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OK. What about Duo?
Duo, as stated before, is simply too light to make use of CS. All CS does is catch the TR, which means it can be thrown around easily if it's used on a light wheel.
Plus, you've gotta remember, you cannot push BD145's disk upwards on Duo. Combining that with CS's lack of friction, and you get violent scraping. I wouldn't be surprised at all to go to a tournament and win 3-0 against Duo BD145CS with a Sybchrom attacker all by OS.
RSF, RB and RDF all just do a better job in general. In terms of Defense, a 45-gram wheel on a plastic Bottom just doesn't cut it these days.
Plus, you've gotta remember, you cannot push BD145's disk upwards on Duo. Combining that with CS's lack of friction, and you get violent scraping. I wouldn't be surprised at all to go to a tournament and win 3-0 against Duo BD145CS with a Sybchrom attacker all by OS.
RSF, RB and RDF all just do a better job in general. In terms of Defense, a 45-gram wheel on a plastic Bottom just doesn't cut it these days.
List looks fine, just curious why ch120 isnt in the tracks for Wyvang. 9-1 for Wyatt V2 last tournament. The last two standard tournaments he's pretty much spammed it going 2nd in both. When he hasn't placed in a year and a half before that.
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(Feb. 12, 2014 5:20 PM)Coach Wrote: List looks fine, just curious why ch120 isnt in the tracks for Wyvang. 9-1 for Wyatt V2 last tournament. The last two standard tournaments he's pretty much spammed it going 2nd in both. When he hasn't placed in a year and a half before that.
There was discussion on this previously, and IIRC the conclusion reached was that Wyvang is seriously hurt by loose/shifting parts (hence the extreme importance of tightening it frequently), so CH120 was excluded.
I, however, love Wyvang on CH120, and always have. It seems I'm in the minority, but it certainly puts up some nice numbers for me (when used with no metal face; MSF makes it rattle a lot... then again, that's the case with nearly every Wyvang custom I build).
Rattling parts cause problems for an attack type? Psh, my rattly TH170 in 220 mode has always and still does wreck 230 in stamina matches (which is apparently not always the case), and it rattles for the same reason CH120 does (some slight ability for the tip connector shaft to shift from side to side very slightly). I can understand loose parts being problematic, but that? I doubt it. Can you find me a link to that discussion because I've got plenty of rattling parts and they've never caused me any trouble. CH120's grip on the rest of the beyblade isn't "loose" anyway, if that was something that was happening it was because their CH120's were cracked - which is something the track is ridiculously prone to, but no reason not to list it (heck with a certain amount of cracking it actually holds the shaft much tighter, and then the only rattling is due to the locking disk in CH120 mode), especially because if it's that bad it also means something else is usually at play - the track not sitting straight (most non-Hybrid System wheels are prone to that with CH120 and GB145, two tracks in which the threading cylinder cracks with great ease, though unlevel sitting only happens after both sides crack a significant distance, and then very rarely for hybrid system wheels (the track usually stops holding onto facebolts for a single battle before that point, as HWS wheels have the flat surface the track can rest its entire top contact surface on, amongst other factors).
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That's what I thought... rattling of the Chrome Wheels themselves seriously hinders it for me, as is the case for everyone else, but a loose Track didn't change much at all.
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MSF-H-Wy...pid1114495
Meow!'s post pretty much summed it up. Now that I look at it, the issue wasn't discussed very thoroughly. Should definitely be re-tested (need some replacement Wyvang ATM, but whoever else wants to, feel free).
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MSF-H-Wy...pid1114495
Meow!'s post pretty much summed it up. Now that I look at it, the issue wasn't discussed very thoroughly. Should definitely be re-tested (need some replacement Wyvang ATM, but whoever else wants to, feel free).
Definitely should. CH145 tightness varies (funnily enough, some cracking actually improves how well it holds height LOL, but some do decently stock (and it's not brand-based, despite the old rumor that Hasbro CH120's didn't stay up - before it broke, the best CH120 I ever had was hasbro)), and while stamina wise it isn't as good as a plain 145 for various reasons, this is an attack custom (and from Limited, I would suspect aside from BD145/SA165 users, CH120 is probably going to do better against opposing attack types than 145 height tracks.
Either way, aside from Basalt's reign, CH120 has always been great for Attack, perhaps E230 changes that for wyvang but this is definitely something that should be tested before being dismissed IMO.
So uh yeah if someone could test that it'd be good because I am not buying a second def/stam dx set any time soon. Wyatt V2's tournament results are pretty good indicators alongside CH120's history but I've made more than my fair share of radical proposals lately, and I'm pretty sure it's not doing wonders for my public image, heh.
Either way, aside from Basalt's reign, CH120 has always been great for Attack, perhaps E230 changes that for wyvang but this is definitely something that should be tested before being dismissed IMO.
So uh yeah if someone could test that it'd be good because I am not buying a second def/stam dx set any time soon. Wyatt V2's tournament results are pretty good indicators alongside CH120's history but I've made more than my fair share of radical proposals lately, and I'm pretty sure it's not doing wonders for my public image, heh.
(Sep. 24, 2012 6:30 PM)Dark_Mousy Wrote:Meow! posted a battle video showing Flash Lynx GB145R2F vs Reviser Dragooon BD145RDF and it shows Flash can KO and push KO Dragooon.(Sep. 24, 2012 5:56 PM)Ya Wrote: Flash W145 MF will be outspun by standard left spin defense combos such as MF-H Revizer Dragooon BD145 RDF.Maybe, its never been tested IIRC. But Im pretty sure a decent attack player can ko that. And RDF does have bad stamina. This does require more testing Ill admit.
(Sep. 24, 2012 5:56 PM)Ya Wrote: Duo BThere is no honorable section on the tier list.gets an honorable mention as well but is not top-tier worthy.
(Sep. 24, 2012 5:56 PM)Ya Wrote: Spin-Equalizers should not be on the same section as Stamina Types.I would agree with this. I can see why Kei put them in stamina. Spin Stealers are sort of a stamina type. Its more of a subsection of stamina. But I would feel comfortable with either them staying under stamina or add a spin stealer/Equalization section
(Sep. 24, 2012 5:56 PM)Ya Wrote: 160 needs to be added for stamina.More testing needs to be done. But 160 was added to Duo
(Sep. 24, 2012 5:56 PM)Ya Wrote: Cosmic needs to be added for attack.Why? Its okay for Hasbro. But it hasn't impacted the metagame at all. Has it topped ANYWHERE? No. Blitz>Cosmic
(Sep. 24, 2012 5:56 PM)Ya Wrote: Hasbro Jade needs to be added for attack also.
Like I said about cosmic. Its okay for Hasbro. BUT Blitz is better. Why would we take Blitz off and add something worse? Wouldn't make sense.
Wow dude...
Those posts are From like two and a half years ago. XD
Those posts are From like two and a half years ago. XD
So...
Is this update happening? It kinda looks like the Advanced topic is dying slowly...
Some up-to-date info to redirect new members to would be kinda super awesome.
Is this update happening? It kinda looks like the Advanced topic is dying slowly...
Some up-to-date info to redirect new members to would be kinda super awesome.
As far as I know we're waiting on Kei, both for a word on Diablo (as he's defended its inclusion before) and to actually make the update official, assuming he is okay with it. The discussion has stopped because there is not really anything else for the rest of us to say.
Is BD145MF still a viable option on Dragooon?
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(Feb. 26, 2014 6:15 AM)ridbladebreaker Wrote:(Feb. 26, 2014 6:13 AM)TheLibraKing Wrote:(Feb. 26, 2014 6:09 AM)ridbladebreaker Wrote: Is BD145MF still a viable option on Dragooon?
Eh, it's not all that great anymore TBH.
Alrighty, then they'll go back to be used in Flash Orion and Girago Girago.
Balro Balro BD145MF is good though, if your looking for a BD145MF combo.
Posting some junk here kinda in response to Kei's post in the advanced forum:
The whole idea of removing MF-M was because it causes the combination using to topple sooner, due to more inward weight distribution, essentially creating an effect that alters the width to height ratio as far as weight goes.
So yah, main idea is MF-M = more prone to toppling, which is what it sounds like we want to avoid.
Nope. Done plenty of testing with SA165, and it just isn't comparable to BD145 (it's not horrible, but if you,re going SA165 you might as well just use Wyvang). BD145's bulk goes way better with Bahamdia.
There are countless combinations that lose extremely consistently to Dragooon customs on the tier list, though. If there weren't, why would Dragooon be competitive?
If you use this reasoning when evaluating something for the competitive list, you'd have to remove half the Balance section, all Stamina besides SA165/W145WD/EWD, and all Defense besides BD145RDF variants. There are so, so, so many things that lose to Dragooon on the tier list currently, that withholding from adding something just because it cannot win against Dragooon is a little self-contradictory.
Eh, kinda on the edge here. I'd like it to stay, seeing as its Stamina is absolutely incredible, and, though it does have high recoil, the thing only it'll really be KOed by that Duo won't is... um... I can't actually think of anything. Gimme a second...
Perhaps, maybe some F230 combos? I guess Killerken BD145 Defense might be able to squeak a win in there too, but Revizer is generally the preferred choice there anyway.
IDK, I can see how one might see its recoil as problematic, though. I'd personally leave it on, since, though its recoil is a bit high, there really aren't many Beyblades that can/will actually exploit it that wouldn't KO Duo Stamina customs anyway. I could definitely understand if you guys wanted to toss it, though.
Not that I know of, but if I recall correctly, your concerns about it were based on the "It can't beat Dragooon" thing you said earlier, which I kinda already rambled about.
Amen.
Kei Wrote:On F230CF/GCF combos, my idea was that increased spin velocity would be desirable because it isn't the precession of that type of combo that I'm worried about given what it can do once it has fallen over; I'm more concerned with keeping it upright as long as possible before it has to rely on that to win. The longer you can delay that, the better, I think. That's also why I use GCF over CF; the flat area of the bottom of GCF is larger than that of CF (like WF vs. XF, or whatever), which means it has the ability to stay upright longer. F230CF/GCF is unique when it comes to "spin stealers", so I don't think it's fair to categorize it in the same way.
The whole idea of removing MF-M was because it causes the combination using to topple sooner, due to more inward weight distribution, essentially creating an effect that alters the width to height ratio as far as weight goes.
So yah, main idea is MF-M = more prone to toppling, which is what it sounds like we want to avoid.
Kei Wrote:TheBlackDragon Wrote:
- {MSF-M/MSF-L} Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 (LRF/R2F/RF)
No SA165?
Nope. Done plenty of testing with SA165, and it just isn't comparable to BD145 (it's not horrible, but if you,re going SA165 you might as well just use Wyvang). BD145's bulk goes way better with Bahamdia.
Kei Wrote:I still don't understand the affinity people have for TB Stamina combos outside of their use against F230CF/GCF combos in Zero-G, but maybe that's just me. Using something like Duo TH170/SR200TB seems insane to me given the weakness it has to left-spin combos which are everywhere in the metagame. It seems like so many of the new combos that are posted can never deal with left-spin combos, which is a bigger problem for me than it seems to be for other people who are advocating to have them added to this list.
There are countless combinations that lose extremely consistently to Dragooon customs on the tier list, though. If there weren't, why would Dragooon be competitive?
If you use this reasoning when evaluating something for the competitive list, you'd have to remove half the Balance section, all Stamina besides SA165/W145WD/EWD, and all Defense besides BD145RDF variants. There are so, so, so many things that lose to Dragooon on the tier list currently, that withholding from adding something just because it cannot win against Dragooon is a little self-contradictory.
Kei Wrote:Having Phantom on the list seems like a joke to me at this point, especially on TH170 and SR200. The weight is one problem, which it shares with Duo, but what it has that Duo doesn't is high recoil. I can't overlook this anymore, personally. It does indeed have great Stamina, but you should all remember that it's OK for there to be "good combos" that aren't on this list. I think it's time for it to go if we want this list to be representative of the most competitive combos available in the current metagame. If we're being realistic about where the game is at right now, the only two answers to the question of "What is viable for Stamina?" are Duo and Dragooon variants. Phantom can still be effective, and so can some right-spin Synchrom Stamina combos, but Duo and Dragooon are both pretty clearly at the top right now.
Eh, kinda on the edge here. I'd like it to stay, seeing as its Stamina is absolutely incredible, and, though it does have high recoil, the thing only it'll really be KOed by that Duo won't is... um... I can't actually think of anything. Gimme a second...
Perhaps, maybe some F230 combos? I guess Killerken BD145 Defense might be able to squeak a win in there too, but Revizer is generally the preferred choice there anyway.
IDK, I can see how one might see its recoil as problematic, though. I'd personally leave it on, since, though its recoil is a bit high, there really aren't many Beyblades that can/will actually exploit it that wouldn't KO Duo Stamina customs anyway. I could definitely understand if you guys wanted to toss it, though.
Kei Wrote:TheBlackDragon Wrote:
- MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF
Has anything changed since I posted my original concerns about this one?
Not that I know of, but if I recall correctly, your concerns about it were based on the "It can't beat Dragooon" thing you said earlier, which I kinda already rambled about.
Kei Wrote:th!nk Wrote:As for Diablo, I'm surprised it's still up there with Wyvang and so on around, but Kei covered that here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Competit...pid1162575 so I wouldn't remove it without his word, myself.
The only thing I think it has problems with sometimes are E230 Defenders, but other than that it is still pretty solid!
Amen.
Was that SA165 testing formal? I tried it and it seemed pretty effective compared to the original, with the added bonus of outspinning 230RSF/RS/RB (not RDF, and didn't get a chance to try CS), which is pretty useful, so IDK I really like it, and I went in thinking it wouldn't work. More info in the advanced forum topic as I was mainly responding to Kei.
Responded to other stuff in the advanced forum topic with one or two things directed at you, would repost but I'm getting hand cramps from typing all day so it's easiest if you just go read that for the rest of it, figure you would anyway but I didn't notice the bit about you testing SA165 til now so I wanted to ask about that.
Responded to other stuff in the advanced forum topic with one or two things directed at you, would repost but I'm getting hand cramps from typing all day so it's easiest if you just go read that for the rest of it, figure you would anyway but I didn't notice the bit about you testing SA165 til now so I wanted to ask about that.
Don't get me wrong, SA165 isn't gonna not work, there are just reasons to use BD145 instead.
I find BD145 more consistent and powerful against most everything as far as landing a KO goes (not by a super big margin, but it is noticeably better for me), so that's really the biggest reason.
Another big reason is, with Bahamdia's thin shape, making contact with everything you can manage is important, and the way the Chrome Wheels contact points are oriented (notably the fact that Bahamdia has zero smash anywhere on its underside), BD145 generally gives you a more universally applicable height. When you take stability, range, recoil, points of contact and other variables into the equation, having an Attack type that's exceptionally tall compared to a lot of the meta isn't exactly optimal for the most part.
Another reason, is that one of the things that makes Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 so versatile, is its prowess in Attack vs. Attack matchups, which SA165 doesn't have. At that height, 145 Wyvang Attack types can take you down easily, which is untrue for BD145 (actually been in that matchup in competition a couple times, and having a custom that doubles as a consistent anti-attacker is a really great thing to have).
Lastly, though this isn't as significant, and results could vary from person to person, but I find the BD145 variant considerably more effective against Dragooon F230, which is one of this custom's primary functions (SA165 can still take it out most of the time, which is the reason I don't consider it a big drawback, but consistency is never a bad thing to have).
Oh yah, BTW (and I really don't wanna sound like I don't believe you here, because I do), the BD145 variant actually OSes E230RSF a lot more reliably than the SA165 variant does for me. Don't know why (actually, I'm still testing with MSF-M and R2F, so if you're using MSF-L/RF that might be effecting something).
Again, I'm not saying SA165 is bad (on the contrary, it works pretty darn well against a lot of thing - perhaps arguably top-tier worthy), but I don't really see any great reason to list it given BD145 works better for me (I wouldn't necessarily be strongly opposed to adding it, but you know, if BD145 is truly better, what's the point? LOL).
EDIT: As for the other stuff:
I absolutely 100% agree with removing Death from F230CF/GCF. Like you said, Duo does what Death does, and then a ton of other stuff on the side that Death doesn't do (that's super simplified, but if anyone wants to hear the rest they can just go read the post).
I don't know why CS isn't listed on TH170; I believe I was the first (possibly only) person to formally test Genbull Genbull TH170, and I don't think I ever posted anything with CS, so it could simply be a lack of testing.
TB is a great pure Stamina Bottom, perfectly capable of OSing CS for me. I really recommend we leave it on the list for Genbull. I don't really have the energy/time to go into depth about this one, but essentially it just has really great Stamina in general, to the point where I think removing it for CS is kinda crazy. But yah, IDK if that's actually what you meant looking at it, since you did say "As for Genbull Genbull CS/TB deserving its place, I definitely think so,"...
As for Phantom, OK, whatever. Do what you gotta do. I'm not very well informed on Phantom vs. Defense anyway, so, considering I'm in the minority you guys are probably right haha.
On Genbull Genbull for Defense... eeeehhh, Genbull Genbull E230CS seems more like Balance to me to be honest. Genbull is definitely not "good" as the bottom Chrome Wheel on an E230 Defense custom if you're actually looking to avoid KO from my experience. It also really isn't all that hard to hit either.
IDK... my brain isn't working particularly well right now, but all I know is that I wouldn't use Genbull Genbull on an E230 Defense custom if I had other options. Too much recoil for me (the extra Stamina is great, but it's a Defense custom after all - at this point it would come down to whether you want to base what's listed in the Defense section on what's better at Defense, or just better in general, assuming Genbull^2 handles more stuff, which I can't comment on since I've never tried it against anything other than Attack).
Sorry if any of that sounded unclear. I don't actually feel so good right now. I think I need something to eat...
EDIT#2: OK, so in a nutshell:
Oppose the removal of Twin Ball from Genbull Stamina customs (that thing really does have incredible Stamina compared to most Bottoms, especially on higher Tracks; certainly far and away better than it is in LTD. I actually haven't found anything that can out-spin it in a mirror match on Duo 230 (we are talking about Genbull here, but the fact stands that TB can exhibit unbelievable Stamina (it usually benefits Genbull more than Duo IIRC, actually (and even if CS does do better overall, which is arguably inapplicable given they behave differently (TB is more of a pure Stamina Bottom, whereas CS is slightly aggressive and doesn't provide as much pure endurance), that doesn't necessarily make TB an uncompetitive option (gosh I'm using a lot of parentheses))))).
Support the removal of Genbull Genbull from E230 Defense (It just has higher recoil than I'd like a Defense custom to have; yes, it can take hits decently, but nowhere near as well against the most prevalent heights as Revizer or Killerken can, so, if anything, I'd just add CS as an option besides MB on Genbull/Girago Genbull E230MB if you really wanted a defensive-ish Genbull ^2 E230 custom in there)
I'd also like to note that, while you mentioned Revizer not having the lowest-recoil underside, that Revizer's edges are much thicker and straighter than Genbull's, which means its underside is much, much, much more difficult to make contact with (actually, the problem with Genbull may not be so much the recoil from its underside as it is the fact that the underside is so exposed).
Strongly support the removal of Death from F230 combinations (Duo just does everything better. Simple as that. I cannot think of a single, solitary reason for using over Duo in any situation)
Support the addition of CS to Genbull Genbull TH170 customs (Adding MSF(-H) could use some looking into, but seeing as that's a very major change as opposed to adding CS to a custom that already uses it on a very similar Track, it'd take some investigation)
Support the removal of Phantom From the Stamina section (You guys want it gone, and all I had, as I think I sated before were general concepts from informal testing, and basic ideas/skepticism that something like Revizer could KO it, as opposed to consistent results from multiple advanced members, until I tried it out a few hours ago and found that you were right - I should test more before I open my mouth, haha)
So yah, that's about it. I'm just gonna say it... who else is gonna feel reeeaally weird when Phantom is gone? I don't know if I'll be able to wrap my head around the fact that it's actually no longer competitive after... what, like, 2 years now?
I find BD145 more consistent and powerful against most everything as far as landing a KO goes (not by a super big margin, but it is noticeably better for me), so that's really the biggest reason.
Another big reason is, with Bahamdia's thin shape, making contact with everything you can manage is important, and the way the Chrome Wheels contact points are oriented (notably the fact that Bahamdia has zero smash anywhere on its underside), BD145 generally gives you a more universally applicable height. When you take stability, range, recoil, points of contact and other variables into the equation, having an Attack type that's exceptionally tall compared to a lot of the meta isn't exactly optimal for the most part.
Another reason, is that one of the things that makes Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 so versatile, is its prowess in Attack vs. Attack matchups, which SA165 doesn't have. At that height, 145 Wyvang Attack types can take you down easily, which is untrue for BD145 (actually been in that matchup in competition a couple times, and having a custom that doubles as a consistent anti-attacker is a really great thing to have).
Lastly, though this isn't as significant, and results could vary from person to person, but I find the BD145 variant considerably more effective against Dragooon F230, which is one of this custom's primary functions (SA165 can still take it out most of the time, which is the reason I don't consider it a big drawback, but consistency is never a bad thing to have).
Oh yah, BTW (and I really don't wanna sound like I don't believe you here, because I do), the BD145 variant actually OSes E230RSF a lot more reliably than the SA165 variant does for me. Don't know why (actually, I'm still testing with MSF-M and R2F, so if you're using MSF-L/RF that might be effecting something).
Again, I'm not saying SA165 is bad (on the contrary, it works pretty darn well against a lot of thing - perhaps arguably top-tier worthy), but I don't really see any great reason to list it given BD145 works better for me (I wouldn't necessarily be strongly opposed to adding it, but you know, if BD145 is truly better, what's the point? LOL).
EDIT: As for the other stuff:
I absolutely 100% agree with removing Death from F230CF/GCF. Like you said, Duo does what Death does, and then a ton of other stuff on the side that Death doesn't do (that's super simplified, but if anyone wants to hear the rest they can just go read the post).
I don't know why CS isn't listed on TH170; I believe I was the first (possibly only) person to formally test Genbull Genbull TH170, and I don't think I ever posted anything with CS, so it could simply be a lack of testing.
TB is a great pure Stamina Bottom, perfectly capable of OSing CS for me. I really recommend we leave it on the list for Genbull. I don't really have the energy/time to go into depth about this one, but essentially it just has really great Stamina in general, to the point where I think removing it for CS is kinda crazy. But yah, IDK if that's actually what you meant looking at it, since you did say "As for Genbull Genbull CS/TB deserving its place, I definitely think so,"...
As for Phantom, OK, whatever. Do what you gotta do. I'm not very well informed on Phantom vs. Defense anyway, so, considering I'm in the minority you guys are probably right haha.
On Genbull Genbull for Defense... eeeehhh, Genbull Genbull E230CS seems more like Balance to me to be honest. Genbull is definitely not "good" as the bottom Chrome Wheel on an E230 Defense custom if you're actually looking to avoid KO from my experience. It also really isn't all that hard to hit either.
IDK... my brain isn't working particularly well right now, but all I know is that I wouldn't use Genbull Genbull on an E230 Defense custom if I had other options. Too much recoil for me (the extra Stamina is great, but it's a Defense custom after all - at this point it would come down to whether you want to base what's listed in the Defense section on what's better at Defense, or just better in general, assuming Genbull^2 handles more stuff, which I can't comment on since I've never tried it against anything other than Attack).
Sorry if any of that sounded unclear. I don't actually feel so good right now. I think I need something to eat...
EDIT#2: OK, so in a nutshell:
Oppose the removal of Twin Ball from Genbull Stamina customs (that thing really does have incredible Stamina compared to most Bottoms, especially on higher Tracks; certainly far and away better than it is in LTD. I actually haven't found anything that can out-spin it in a mirror match on Duo 230 (we are talking about Genbull here, but the fact stands that TB can exhibit unbelievable Stamina (it usually benefits Genbull more than Duo IIRC, actually (and even if CS does do better overall, which is arguably inapplicable given they behave differently (TB is more of a pure Stamina Bottom, whereas CS is slightly aggressive and doesn't provide as much pure endurance), that doesn't necessarily make TB an uncompetitive option (gosh I'm using a lot of parentheses))))).
Support the removal of Genbull Genbull from E230 Defense (It just has higher recoil than I'd like a Defense custom to have; yes, it can take hits decently, but nowhere near as well against the most prevalent heights as Revizer or Killerken can, so, if anything, I'd just add CS as an option besides MB on Genbull/Girago Genbull E230MB if you really wanted a defensive-ish Genbull ^2 E230 custom in there)
I'd also like to note that, while you mentioned Revizer not having the lowest-recoil underside, that Revizer's edges are much thicker and straighter than Genbull's, which means its underside is much, much, much more difficult to make contact with (actually, the problem with Genbull may not be so much the recoil from its underside as it is the fact that the underside is so exposed).
Strongly support the removal of Death from F230 combinations (Duo just does everything better. Simple as that. I cannot think of a single, solitary reason for using over Duo in any situation)
Support the addition of CS to Genbull Genbull TH170 customs (Adding MSF(-H) could use some looking into, but seeing as that's a very major change as opposed to adding CS to a custom that already uses it on a very similar Track, it'd take some investigation)
Support the removal of Phantom From the Stamina section (You guys want it gone, and all I had, as I think I sated before were general concepts from informal testing, and basic ideas/skepticism that something like Revizer could KO it, as opposed to consistent results from multiple advanced members, until I tried it out a few hours ago and found that you were right - I should test more before I open my mouth, haha)
So yah, that's about it. I'm just gonna say it... who else is gonna feel reeeaally weird when Phantom is gone? I don't know if I'll be able to wrap my head around the fact that it's actually no longer competitive after... what, like, 2 years now?
I think I mentioned myself that getting rid of phantom because of a series of generally poorly balanced wheels would feel weird, but then the same thing happened to Burn to a degree with Basalt and wow that does not make it feel any better huh?
That said I mean Phantom 85MF is probably still useful ya know, and I'm suer there are certain phantom customs you could win with, but generally Genbull Genbull or whatever is gonna pull it off better.
IMO the MSF-H thing on Genbull is just a simple thing based on historical/LTD success of similar customs, dunno if there'll be enough ground for it for the others but I think my explanation of why it helps a combo like that should be enough to add it as an option tbh, though perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself because of how much it reminds me of MF-H Libra TH170CS which is one of my favourite combos in Limited which means I'll probably use it a bit, there are a few things I want to check today.
Wasn't really saying we should remove TB, just making a note that it might be something worth looking into both for myself and others, definitely some things I want to look at today within that.
That said I mean Phantom 85MF is probably still useful ya know, and I'm suer there are certain phantom customs you could win with, but generally Genbull Genbull or whatever is gonna pull it off better.
IMO the MSF-H thing on Genbull is just a simple thing based on historical/LTD success of similar customs, dunno if there'll be enough ground for it for the others but I think my explanation of why it helps a combo like that should be enough to add it as an option tbh, though perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself because of how much it reminds me of MF-H Libra TH170CS which is one of my favourite combos in Limited which means I'll probably use it a bit, there are a few things I want to check today.
Wasn't really saying we should remove TB, just making a note that it might be something worth looking into both for myself and others, definitely some things I want to look at today within that.
I'm totally in support of Phantom Staying, heck, it's still possible to place with an almost stock phantom (I won month with Phantom hades B (not the only combo i used, but i used it a heck of alot.) and a dude In NC (one of the most competitive beyblade scenes in the world, he even solo-ed with it!) placed with MF-L phantom Orion B last year (wasn't early last year, since i was a member when i saw it ) and that's just the ones I remember seeing.)
I do see some phantom customs being removed in the -maybe- near future (but I firmly believe that 85MF should not be removed, I could see W145EWD/WD being removed since people could argue that Duo W145EWD/WD is better.)
(not the only combo i used, but i used it a heck of alot.) and a dude In NC (one of the most competitive beyblade scenes in the world, he even solo-ed with it!) placed with MF-L phantom Orion B last year (wasn't early last year, since i was a member when i saw it ) and that's just the ones I remember seeing.)I do see some phantom customs being removed in the -maybe- near future (but I firmly believe that 85MF should not be removed, I could see W145EWD/WD being removed since people could argue that Duo W145EWD/WD is better.)
We're only talking about removing phantom from stamina - I didn't check if 85MF was up there but it'll stay.
The reason Phantom stamina can't stay is that too many defense customs knock it out without much trouble. We didn't add B: D to stamina back in the day despite Phantom B: D winning so much (because it was inferior to a bunch of TH170 setups, and still is bar vs spin stealers (though TH170EWD is still p close) on most things (Metal Fury Scythe in Limited makes obnoxious use of it)) and I don't think that'll keep it around now, heck if anything the fact it survived on B: D says to me it had an easy time in terms of opponents with even the vaguest of aggression to be blunt about it :c
The reason Phantom stamina can't stay is that too many defense customs knock it out without much trouble. We didn't add B: D to stamina back in the day despite Phantom B: D winning so much (because it was inferior to a bunch of TH170 setups, and still is bar vs spin stealers (though TH170EWD is still p close) on most things (Metal Fury Scythe in Limited makes obnoxious use of it)) and I don't think that'll keep it around now, heck if anything the fact it survived on B: D says to me it had an easy time in terms of opponents with even the vaguest of aggression to be blunt about it :c
Oh, forgot we were only talking about only stamina. 85MF is up dere in balance.
Yes, I know haha, even stamina can knock it out (looking at you Duo SA165TB). It was just an example about how Phantom stamina can OS most of today's Non-F230/Spin-Steal Customs, if it doesn't get KOed. I just hate face a sad tier-list where the wheel with some of the beats solo-spin times isn't present.
Yes, I know haha, even stamina can knock it out (looking at you Duo SA165TB). It was just an example about how Phantom stamina can OS most of today's Non-F230/Spin-Steal Customs, if it doesn't get KOed. I just hate face a sad tier-list where the wheel with some of the beats solo-spin times isn't present.