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MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion

Oct. 02, 2013  10:02 PM
 
A good combo in my opinion is Phantom (attack) herculeo 85 CF
Oct. 02, 2013  10:02 PM
 
(Oct. 02, 2013  10:02 PM)PhantomOrion22 Wrote: A good combo in my opinion is Phantom (attack) herculeo 85 CF

is that a staller?
Oct. 02, 2013  10:05 PM
 
This thread is to talk about competitive customizations, not what you personally think is good. You would need tests to support your claims.

It's pretty obvious that Phantom 85MF is much better. It's top tier.
Oct. 03, 2013  1:32 AM
 
Wow! Where did all this D>SD come from all of a sudden?? I thought testing has always consistently shown that SD>D for pure stamina.

Huh... anyone got any testing? I'm really curious now. Tongue_out
Oct. 03, 2013  1:50 AM
 
Maybe the old WD>SD>D>WD triangle needs to be retested...? At the very least, to stop any false speculation or misconceptions from arising with all the varying opinions getting thrown about.
Oct. 03, 2013  3:23 AM
 
(Oct. 03, 2013  1:32 AM)theblackdragon Wrote: Wow! Where did all this D>SD come from all of a sudden?? I thought testing has always consistently shown that SD>D for pure stamina.

Huh... anyone got any testing? I'm really curious now. Tongue_out

Lol sorry, I brought it up. I'm saying D>SD for tall tracks like TH170 and 230.
on 145 heights and below, SD will OS D, but WD is better than both. I usually put EWD and BWD on the same level as WD, although EWDs can be inconsistent and are usually used on Spin-Equalizers rather than generic Stamina types.
Oct. 03, 2013  7:09 AM
 
I think just in case we would be needing more testing on D and SD on taller tracks on combos such as Phantom Cancer/Cygnus 230 D/SD.
Oct. 03, 2013  7:22 PM
 
I always though that SD>D on taller tracks... D always beats WD on anything when I try it, and SD beats D (and literally everything else I have XD).

I just searched for an SD discussion and nothing came up... I know the tests are here somewhere; I've seen them before, but I can't find them now. Unhappy
Oct. 03, 2013  8:37 PM
 
IIRC (and from my own experience) SD is the best overall tip out of the D series. Not that it outclasses any of the others, but that it does better in general. It does well on all heights, but is beaten by the best tip for that height; for instance, on 160/165 (tall-ish tracks) PD beats out SD, on 200-230 D beats SD, and on lower tracks WD beats SD. However, if, for some reason, you didn't have any other D-series tips, SD is a very versatile alternative.
Oct. 04, 2013  2:44 AM
 
Hey, guys... I just have something that's been on my mind a long time:

theblackdragon Wrote:
Lazer Wrote:Do you think Death could be used for anti-attack? I don't have any tests I could do them though but in the B.O.B I just uploaded Death seemed to be able to OS and KO MF-H Flash Orion W145MF in the combo Death Crown TR145WF (of course I'd change WF to R2F)

Well, yes, theoretically. But, the one of the points of an anti-attacker is to be able to do things that regular defenders can't, like KO.

The reason the smooth Basalt is used as an anti-attacker IIRC is because in it's time it could KO nearly the entire stamina metagame due to its "spiral staircase of death" (offsetting the center of gravity, producing a vibrating effect that produces smash/grinding effect).

However, when Basalt Horogium R145/TR145RF/R2F was popularized, the stamina metagame was made up almost entirely of Scythe and Phantom customs, which, having the highest smash of any defensive Metal Wheel of its time, it could KO with ease. Death, however, has less smash and weight than basalt, and on top of that, today's stamina metagame is completely dominated by Duo, which neither can KO consistently (I say consistently because Basalt can, with an amazing launch, KO Duo at times).

An anti-attacker is classified as balance. Something similar to an anti-attacker, but with a low-smash defensive wheel using a rubber flat tip rather than a conventional defensive bottom would just be a form of defense, since it's not built to beat other things as well.

As I stated above, Basalt R145/TR145RF/R2F cannot KO even the defensively weakest Duo customs used today with any considerable consistency, and as such, I would actually very much like to see it removed, as Diablo and Girago can beat the heck out of Duo stamina combos while still retaining a greater degree of defensive ability.

That's why Diablo BD145R2F is such a good pick against an attack type in a tournament situation, because it will knock Duo into next week, OS Reviser, and still beat the stuff normal defenders can. Smile

So, in a nutshell, Death can't KO, so there's really no reason to categorize it or Basalt as anti-attack Metal Wheels IMO. You'd just be creating a defense type using RF instead of RDF/RB/RSF/CS.

th!nk in some year-old thread in the advanced forum Wrote:The latter part is the key difference from RF Defense - RF defenders lack the ability to handle stamina with decent reliability. The reason for this difference is basically because as a result of this things like Duo BD145RF and Diablo BD145RF have very different applications, Duo being solely defensive (and better at that) to the exclusion of notable attack ability and very poor stamina, whilst Diablo sacrifices some of that defense to be less overspecialized [...Less focused towards defense...], making it a balance type.

See? Smile Sorry if that was overcomplicated. XD

After this, I think I've compiled a decent case... Who of you guys would like to See Basalt leave the tier-list? I mean, it's a cool combo, but in the face of Diablo, Duo, and Girago it really doesn't have the attack application that it used to.

Thoughts?
Oct. 04, 2013  2:48 AM
 
I agree its old and getting out classed. Basalt can still be used for a good bey but there are way to many better weels for what it does now
Oct. 04, 2013  3:04 AM
 
Speaking of Death, I've seen a few people use it at tournaments after copying me, but I love
MF-M Death (attack) Escolpio SA165 (Defense) RF for anti-attack
Oct. 04, 2013  3:07 AM
 
@TheBlackDragon: Basalt should've been off the list long ago.
Oct. 04, 2013  3:23 AM
 
Wait Basalt is still on the list? LMAO take it off, please.
Oct. 04, 2013  3:58 AM
 
(Oct. 04, 2013  3:23 AM)ShinobuXD Wrote: Wait Basalt is still on the list? LMAO take it off, please.

It was on the list for Basalt TR145 R2F. But I never liked that combo in general. I took it off my list in the advanced forum.

Here is my list from the advanced forum. Thoughts? Everyone okay with this lsit?

Spoiler (Click to View)
Oct. 04, 2013  4:17 AM
 
@Wyvang I know this is going to sound stupid but... how about SA165 on Wyvang? It has troubles with E230 because of the low height, maybe a height boost would help! I think it should be looked into.
Flash W145MF I believe it should be taken off :\ Balro*2 does everything Flash W145MF does, but worlds better. Thoughts?
@ Duo Defense Where is CS?
Genbull Defense From what I've heard, Genbull doesn't work with CS
@BWD I think it just deserves a spot in Zero-G, it's too pointy, unstable for BB-10.
Duo F230CF/CF Why is this in Balance and not in Stamina?
dragooon F230CF/GCF Same as Duo F230
Oct. 04, 2013  4:22 AM
 
It can't be stamina alone for F230CF/GCF because it still attacking but at the end it stamina that's why it balance.

Whoa whoa no Dragoon BGrin? <redacted>.... I still won in BR with it. It still deserve it place.
Oct. 04, 2013  4:26 AM
 
I agree with BGrin, it should be on the list. It has more Defense than EWD/WD/BWD.
Oct. 04, 2013  4:32 AM
 
Flash W145 MF: Balro can't KO Duo.
Duo CS: Even on a pure rubber tip, Flash trashes it. With CS, you're looking at 20-0.
Genbull CS: Yeah, people say it doesn't work with CS.
@F230: Its balance. It tornado stalls, KOs(in the case of Dragooon), and most of all, outspins opposite spin stuff.

dragooon BGrin- BR was Zero-G... this is for BB-10.

Dark: You forgot Girago anti-attack.

EDIT: As for BGrin, why? What does it do well besides having decent precession/LAD? SA165 EWD completely outclasses it.
Oct. 04, 2013  4:42 AM
 
Added
Girago Girago BD145 RF to Balance

Took away
CS on Genbull

Dragooon BD is good. But its not top tier. Its more of a niche' combo that works in certain situations. Dragooon SA165 EWD is better.
Oct. 04, 2013  4:53 AM
 
As for Balro not KOing, I can test that out tomorrow for you, tell you how it goes. Plus, if it can't KO, it can OS, unlike Flash.
Oct. 04, 2013  4:55 AM
 
Flash can OS RDF/RB/RS and KO CS.

Edit: Which Balro combo are you referring to?
Oct. 04, 2013  4:58 AM
 
Balro W145WSF. In my experience, Flash W145MF doesn't OS Defense, or KO it, while Balro W145WSF does.
Oct. 04, 2013  5:14 AM
 
That's not cool bro.

What i'm trying to point out is what if someone don't have access to SA165 and EWD? But there best option is BD

I will do some testing on Monday on Dragoon BD vs F230CF/GCF
Oct. 04, 2013  11:18 AM
 
@Stars: Availability doesn't have anything to do with this list. :\ It's what exactly is the best.

Anywho, I thought it was OK, but, again, this is what I would like to see:

Spoiler (Click to View)

I wrote this a while ago and it landed in the advanced forum, so whatever they do to it I'm pretty much good. The only thing is I didn't have Dragooon F230CF and/or Duo SA165EWD on here, because, at the time, there were no formal test results for either. :\ I've added them and Duo F230CF (doesn't have any formal results either, but what the heck right? Tongue_out).

I also added Genbull Dragooon T125GCF, which I think is a very, very effective custom. I really like it and it really beats just about everything. Thoughts? I can't respond for 3 days, but whatever.

But yah, what's in the advanced forum right now is pretty much exactly what I'd like to see go up, so no complaints. Wink
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