MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion

Ingulit Variares needs to be taken off for attack, Meteo L-Drago should DEFINIETLY be taken off for stamina.
(Feb. 11, 2013  4:58 AM)Yuko Ray14 Wrote: Ingulit Variares needs to be taken off for attack, Meteo L-Drago should DEFINIETLY be taken off for stamina.

I would agree to take Vari Ares off if we can find a suitable replacement. Meteo is up there for spin stealers. It does a decent job at what it does. Its not completely outclassed. Meteo is close to be outclassed but not yet I think.
(Feb. 11, 2013  4:35 AM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: Ingulit:
Add
Killerken for Dragooon SA165 EWD
BWD for Stamina

SP230 will be added for defense soon. I want more tests done on it. Ill be getting to those this week. SP230 needs to be tested drastically anyways.

Wyvang: This is a balance wheel. We need to find the right balance for this. Ive been playin around with Wyvang Wyvang GB145 MF the last few weeks.

SR200: This can be added for stamina I think. SR200 MB needs to be tested more. The little testing I did showed some promise.

TB I love this tip. Once we find the right setup for it it will be amazing. SR200 TB is good from my experience with it so far.

I can see Killerken being good for Dragooon SA165EWD, sure. I was planning on running through all my chrome wheels some day and posting the results in the MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD thread to see which ones perform the best, and in my informal testing Killerken has done more than a passable job. The only other thing I remember from those informal tests was that Gargole was pretty bad.

BWD is putting up some nice numbers, but what what tracks is it actually best on?

I plan to do tests on SP230 myself; I've actually got a blog article draft started that I would have finished today if I hadn't worked on BeyTest. So far its Stamina has been pitiful, but it seems to have a lot of promise. I'll be testing with you for defense as well; I mean, it's got a boost disk on it for heaven's sake, it's got to be at least decent at defense!

Man, I wish I could find some cheap Wyvangs to help you guys test. I'll take your guys' word for it since I probably won't be able to nab some any time soon; I'll keep a close eye on the test results!

SR200 and TB are a match made in heaven (thank you KainHighwind for mentioning this combo!!); I seriously think SR200TB should be added to the stamina section for each wheel if my informal Duo tests are worth their weight in salt. There might be a thread going up for that track/tip combo soon, as a matter of fact, and when that happens I'll post my test results in it.

(Feb. 11, 2013  4:37 AM)ShinobuXD Wrote: Wyvang should go on for attack IMO. Zancrow, KainHighwind, and I have done tests showing it to be at least as good as Flash, if not better.
I also think Killerken Dragooon DF105 LRF and MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85 MF should be considered as well.
Dark: Problem is, no one is testing SR200, TB, Killerken Dragooon SA165 EWD, and BWD. I would, except I don't own them, minus Killerken Dragooon. And on SP230- it is not very good for defense. Definitley worse than E23 IMO.

Killerken Dragooon DF105LRF does seem deadly in the right hands (aka Meow!), and MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF falls in the same boat (I'd like to say I'm pretty good with it); however, both these customs are running into the problem that the people who made the threads for each custom are really the only ones who seem to be using these customs, which doesn't make them real tournament threats.

Do I think they're good customs? Yes, absolutely, and they both put up some pretty awesome numbers. Do I think they should be on the top-tier list? That depends on how much of a popularity contest (NOTE: not a bad thing) this community's tier list should be.

I'll be toying around with those parts soon, but like you said, we do need more people testing these parts. As far as SP230 vs. E230, it's hard to be better at defense than E230 IMO, but SP230 does have some unique traits (it is much more top-heavy, for starters) that might make it better in the right combo.

(Feb. 11, 2013  5:06 AM)Dark_Mousy Wrote:
(Feb. 11, 2013  4:58 AM)Yuko Ray14 Wrote: Ingulit Variares needs to be taken off for attack, Meteo L-Drago should DEFINIETLY be taken off for stamina.

I would agree to take Vari Ares off if we can find a suitable replacement. Meteo is up there for spin stealers. It does a decent job at what it does. Its not completely outclassed. Meteo is close to be outclassed but not yet I think.

These are both very, very valid points:

VariAres is in a tenuous position on the tier list for sure. It is hard for any attacker not named Flash to make a sizeable dent in today's Synchrom meta, but I'm still hesitant to remove VariAres just because the darn rusty fishhook of a metal wheel can spin left. Note that while I'm hesitant, I wouldn't be against it getting taken down at all, but I can still see an argument being made for its tiered position. If Wyvang or some other attack Synchrom proves top-tier worthy, VariAres will have to go for sure.

I'm actually incredibly in favor of removing Meteo at this point. It's darn good at what it does and it can still put up some numbers, but it is soooooo light, especially when you consider that Dragooon spin stealers are a thing. It might need to stay on the list for a popularity contest reason, which is to say that it is something of a tournament threat since it's one of the best left-spin wheels easily assessable by a non-import market. This coming fall, though, when Shogun Steel is released and Dragooon is made easily available, if it's somehow still on the top-tier list Meteo will absolutely have to go.

On a side note, me admitting that Meteo should be removed is like when I admitted Blitz had to go; I still love those wheels so much, but they just aren't cut out for the meta anymore Unhappy
ShinobuXD, Gargole has never really done all that great in Defense when it is in Synchrom with itself. That is why I didn't do Gargole Gargole in my defense comparison tests. It seems that Gargole needs the extra weight from something like Revizer or Wyvang to shine defensively, from my experience.

@Competitive Combos list,

I know it needs more testing (especially from other memebers) but I think it is safe to say that Genbull needs a spot. Simply because it is the only Synchrom that can hold its own vs Duo.

I do think it is time to retire Variares. Some Pegasis, Begirados, Dragooon, and definitely Wyvang have shown to out perform it. Also, as far as attack goes, I am going to do Phoenic Balro TR145MF vs. Diablo BD145RF tests in the near future, and I believe if Phoenic Balro comes out on top (with confirmation from other members) that it should be considered at least on par, if not slightly better, than Flash W145MF.

Before it goes on the tier list, I still would like to see some tests with Killerken Dragooon DF105LRF vs Revizer Revizer BD145RDF. The only tests I have seen with this vs a combo on RDF is Death E230/BD145, and there was no issue KOing it. In my experience, Killerken Dragooon has to KO Revizer Revizer BD145RDF because it cannot spin steal/equalize its way to victory since RDF has stupid good LAD.

TB definitely needs to be considered for Stamina, and I agree on adding SR200TB. I am not totally sold on BWD personally. I know it has done well in Zero G, but I have not seen that much for it in the BB-10. If yall do decide to add it, I think it just needs to be added for the tracks that it did well on in Blitz's testing, not all tracks.

As far as Meteo goes, I am with Ingulit, once Dragooon is released via Shogun Steel, I say it needs to go.

One thing that I believe really needs to be added is MSF-H ________ Dragooon BD145RDF (I honestly can't believe it is not up there currently).
(Feb. 11, 2013  5:30 PM)KainHighwind Wrote: @Competitive Combos list,

I know it needs more testing (especially from other memebers) but I think it is safe to say that Genbull needs a spot. Simply because it is the only Synchrom that can hold its own vs Duo.
I can agree to this. We just need to figure out which track works best. The normal W145 WD/230 D should be best.

(Feb. 11, 2013  5:30 PM)KainHighwind Wrote: I do think it is time to retire Variares. Some Pegasis, Begirados, Dragooon, and definitely Wyvang have shown to out perform it. Also, as far as attack goes, I am going to do Phoenic Balro TR145MF vs. Diablo BD145RF tests in the near future, and I believe if Phoenic Balro comes out on top (with confirmation from other members) that it should be considered at least on par, if not slightly better, than Flash W145MF.
I can agree to this once we find something that we can unanimously agree on that is on par with flash.

(Feb. 11, 2013  5:30 PM)KainHighwind Wrote: TB definitely needs to be considered for Stamina, and I agree on adding SR200TB. I am not totally sold on BWD personally. I know it has done well in Zero G, but I have not seen that much for it in the BB-10. If yall do decide to add it, I think it just needs to be added for the tracks that it did well on in Blitz's testing, not all tracks.
Here is Blitz's testing of BWD. According to the results the best tracks for BWD so far are W145. 230 had some good results but needs more testing. Id feel comfortable adding W145 BWD. More testing of 230 BWD should be done.

(Feb. 11, 2013  5:30 PM)KainHighwind Wrote: As far as Meteo goes, I am with Ingulit, once Dragooon is released via Shogun Steel, I say it needs to go.

One thing that I believe really needs to be added is MSF-H ________ Dragooon BD145RDF (I honestly can't believe it is not up there currently).

I can agree on removing Meteo. Its kinda like saying goodbye to that ex girlfriend you've always been friends with hah. But on a serious note MSF H _____Dragooon BD145 RDF should be added.If this is added how would everyone feel about possibly removing LDD/LDG? Just a thought. They don't see much play now because of Dragooon.
(Feb. 11, 2013  6:19 PM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: I can agree to this. We just need to figure out which track works best. The normal W145 WD/230 D should be best.

Genbull with SR200TB is almost a definite. I know it needs to be tested against other stamina combos, but from my informal testing, it should do great. This will also be a good opportunity to do a test or 2 with Duo SR200TB because I do have 2 SR200 and 2 TBs.

(Feb. 11, 2013  6:19 PM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: I can agree to this once we find something that we can unanimously agree on that is on par with flash.

There definitely needs to be a round of comparison testing devoted to attack Synchroms.

A few that I can think of right off is:
  • Pegasis Gryph S130/W145 RF/R2F
  • Begirados Begirados BD145 RF/R2F
  • Begirados/Pegasis Dragooon S130 LRF/RF/R2F
  • Wyvang Goreim/Wyvang W145/GB145 RF/R2F
  • Bahamdia Ifraid SA165 RF/R2F
  • Phoenic/Balro Balro TR145 MF (and possibly some RF variants)
  • Phoenic Phoenic S130 RF/R2F (this has not seen any love in a while)

(Feb. 11, 2013  6:19 PM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: Here is Blitz's testing of BWD. According to the results the best tracks for BWD so far are W145. 230 had some good results but needs more testing. Id feel comfortable adding W145 BWD. More testing of 230 BWD should be done.

I agree with adding it to W145.

(Feb. 11, 2013  6:19 PM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: I can agree on removing Meteo. Its kinda like saying goodbye to that ex girlfriend you've always been friends with hah. But on a serious note MSF H _____Dragooon BD145 RDF should be added.If this is added how would everyone feel about possibly removing LDD/LDG? Just a thought. They don't see much play now because of Dragooon.

I would hold off for just a little while on taking that off. The only reason I say that is because LDD just got released in Hyperblade version, so we might see an increase in usage from Hasbro only people. Again, maybe just until the Shogun Steel Dragooon is released.
I think we should keep VariAres on the list a little bit longer. I know these are about 2 different things, but if we are keeping meteo and LDD for a little why not Vari? I mean Hasbro is just getting around to releasing it (Like LDD) and it does still have some potential as an attacker. At my latest tournament a Vari was still being used. Although Vari is not the best attack like it use to, we should still keep it for a little while longer (This is my opinion so please don't hate on it to bad if you don't like it).

Edit: To add on what I was saying VariAres should be on the list for a little bit. Maybe off the list when Hasbro releases Zero G.
Thunder Dome is actually right Variares still has the potential so my opinion is with Thunder Dome
Yo, VariAres is completely outclassed, forget about that. We never really care whether Hasbro is synchronised with our top-tier lists or not.
ok now I get it thanks kai-v so if we take variares off what metal wheels will we put ?
And Flash is out from Hasbro anyways, too.

One thing people seem to be forgetting is Girago. It did very good for Cannon and I, especially on TR145.

I will be doing comparisons for almost all of the attackers KainHighwind mentioned today or tomorrow. Unfortunately, I can't do Begirados and Phoenic.

SR200+TB: I am wondering if it is stamina, or simply an upgraded 230 MB. Think about it- both are tall, have wide, ball shaped bottoms, use MF-M for inward weight(at least on Ingulits blog) and use metal wheels similar to Duo, or Duo itself.
I was going to argue for Variares, and while I will agree that it gets completely walled by Synchroms, the only reason to keep it on is because it can spin both directions. I'll be honest, I like Variares, but Flash is better at right spin Attack, and Dragooon is better at left.

Personally I think the L-Dragos should go. Meteo's too light, and gets KOd by anything with half decent attack. I KOd it with Jade WD on a few occasions. Destroy and Guardian have that weird topheavy weight distribution, and Destroy is too recoily. Dragooon is better then them in almost all aspects.

To add, I agree with most people, BWD should be an alternate if not better choice for WD along with EWD, and Killerken should be an alternate choice for Revizer.

Wyvang should go up for attack, it seems to be on equal terms with Flash and doesn't wear down as easily. Being heavier it could probably win against Flash in a mirror match.

The MSF-H Revizer Dragooon SA165EWD combo should change to MSF-H Revizer/Killerken Dragooon SA165EWD/W2D/BGrin.

A lot of people are saying Genbull Genbull should go up, as well as SR200TB, but they can't find the ideal combination for either. Why not try making that into one combo?

Also, this is really OCD, but a lot of the combos that use relatively the same parts, like the Flash combos, should be combined. For example:

Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces
MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/H145/GB145) (RF/R2F)
MF-H Flash ____ W145MF

should change into this:

Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces
MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/H145/GB145/W145) (RF/R2F/LRF/MF)

I honestly think Gemios should be considered for Flash, being a similar size and shape to Escolpio. I'll test it when I have the time, seeing as there are currently no tests to back up my bold claim.
Not B:D. W2D might deserve a spot though. Are there any tests for it?

With Variares, I don't get what the big deal about it spinning left is. It is a horrible spin equalizer, and is too light to destabilize Synchroms up to the TR and out.
(Feb. 12, 2013  12:30 AM)ShinobuXD Wrote: Not B:D. W2D might deserve a spot though. Are there any tests for it?

With Variares, I don't get what the big deal about it spinning left is. It is a horrible spin equalizer, and is too light to destabilize Synchroms up to the TR and out.

B:D should be included. It may have a little less defensive power then SA165EWD/W2D, but I've heard it remarked several times that MSF-H Revizer Dragooon B:D was the combo to beat in order for something to be considered "Top Tier material". Besides, Stamina types/Spin Equalizers were not meant to be used against attackers anyways. And personally, B:D has performed better for me then SA165EWD/W2D in both informal testing and tournament situations.

Variares was the most prominent left-spin attacker, and was never meant to spin equalize or destabilize. I have no idea where you got that from. But I do agree it should be taken down as it is outclassed by Dragooon.
Thats in Zero G where Dragoon BD is good. In BB-10 it's easier to beat.
Wombat- That was said about BGrin in Zero-G.
EDIT: Beaten by Thunder Dome

VariAres: If it doesn't equalize or destabilize beys out, what is the point of it at all? I don't see how it spinning left really affects anybody's decision at all.
(Feb. 12, 2013  12:25 AM)Wombat Wrote: I was going to argue for Variares, and while I will agree that it gets completely walled by Synchroms, the only reason to keep it on is because it can spin both directions. I'll be honest, I like Variares, but Flash is better at right spin Attack, and Dragooon is better at left.

Personally I think the L-Dragos should go. Meteo's too light, and gets KOd by anything with half decent attack. I KOd it with Jade WD on a few occasions. Destroy and Guardian have that weird topheavy weight distribution, and Destroy is too recoily. Dragooon is better then them in almost all aspects.

I'm inclined to agree on all these points, especially if what I'm inferring from Kai-V's post--that popularity is not a factor on this list--is correct. If this is a purely theoretical tier list, then yes, all of what you said is true.

(Feb. 12, 2013  12:25 AM)Wombat Wrote: The MSF-H Revizer Dragooon SA165EWD combo should change to MSF-H Revizer/Killerken Dragooon SA165EWD/W2D/B:D.

Until I do the chrome wheel tests on this custom to finalize which ones work the best, I completely agree with adding Killerken; however, I haven't seen anything about people using W2D on that custom successfully (I mean, it's a great tip for spin stealers, but way back when I first started testing that combo EWD proved to be much better than it), and I know B:D isn't a competitive choice in the BB-10.

(Feb. 12, 2013  12:25 AM)Wombat Wrote: A lot of people are saying Genbull Genbull should go up, as well as SR200TB, but they can't find the ideal combination for either. Why not try making that into one combo?
Well, if SOMEBODY (coughKainHighwindcough) would post a thread about it already, this would be a moot point, lol! But yes, I agree, tests have been showing that Genbull Genbull SR200TB is a darn good stamina custom.

(Feb. 12, 2013  12:25 AM)Wombat Wrote: Also, this is really OCD, but a lot of the combos that use relatively the same parts, like the Flash combos, should be combined. For example:

Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces
MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/H145/GB145) (RF/R2F)
MF-H Flash ____ W145MF

should change into this:

Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces
MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/H145/GB145/W145) (RF/R2F/LRF/MF)
I have to disagree with this particular example, but are there any other parts of the list that you feel this way about? For this one in particular, MF should really only be used on W145 and RF/R2F should only be used on the other tracks. W145RF is, IMO, strictly worse than GB145RF, and H145MF would be horrendously bad. I think in this instance the customs are unique enough to warrant two lines.

(Feb. 12, 2013  12:25 AM)Wombat Wrote: I honestly think Gemios should be considered for Flash, being a similar size and shape to Escolpio. I'll test it when I have the time, seeing as there are currently no tests to back up my bold claim.

Doesn't Geminos cover Flash's slopes or something like that? If anything, I feel like Eonis should be added first (it's really good on Flash IMO).





EDIT:

(Feb. 12, 2013  12:44 AM)ShinobuXD Wrote: VariAres: If it doesn't equalize or destabilize beys out, what is the point of it at all? I don't see how it spinning left really affects anybody's decision at all.
Left-spin attackers are better against left-spin defenders IIRC.
Wombat, I did combine Genbull and SR200TB already.

I will say that B:D might need to be considered for any Dragooon or right spin Synchroms that prove stamina worthy. Hmmm....maybe I need to try Genbull Genbull B:D.
(Feb. 12, 2013  12:50 AM)Ingulit Wrote:
(Feb. 12, 2013  12:25 AM)Wombat Wrote: The MSF-H Revizer Dragooon SA165EWD combo should change to MSF-H Revizer/Killerken Dragooon SA165EWD/W2D/B:D.

Until I do the chrome wheel tests on this custom to finalize which ones work the best, I completely agree with adding Killerken; however, I haven't seen anything about people using W2D on that custom successfully (I mean, it's a great tip for spin stealers, but way back when I first started testing that combo EWD proved to be much better than it), and I know B:D isn't a competitive choice in the BB-10.

Stormscorpio1 placed 2nd in Colosseum with a similar combo designed to counter left-spin Beyblades: MSF-H Revizer Genbull SA165W2D. It defeated Killerken Dragooon BD145MF and MSF-H Killerken Dragooon SA165EWD. I'm not sure if it's ever been specifically tested, but I think the concept behind it is the same, and W2D should be considered as a passable alternative for EWD.

As for B:D, I guess I'll have to do formal testing to prove my point. I'll also test out weak-launching as well.

(Feb. 12, 2013  12:50 AM)Ingulit Wrote:
(Feb. 12, 2013  12:25 AM)Wombat Wrote: Also, this is really OCD, but a lot of the combos that use relatively the same parts, like the Flash combos, should be combined. For example:

Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces
MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/H145/GB145) (RF/R2F)
MF-H Flash ____ W145MF

should change into this:

Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces
MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/H145/GB145/W145) (RF/R2F/LRF/MF)
I have to disagree with this particular example, but are there any other parts of the list that you feel this way about? For this one in particular, MF should really only be used on W145 and RF/R2F should only be used on the other tracks. W145RF is, IMO, strictly worse than GB145RF, and H145MF would be horrendously bad. I think in this instance the customs are unique enough to warrant two lines.

I can see what you mean by H145MF; I picked a poor example. Better ones would be the Revizer Revizers, with the exception of RDF/RSF, all that is changing is the Spin Track. Those should be combined, as RSF can work with BD145 and RDF can work with E230. I think RDF actually amplifies the LAD E230 has.

Another example would be the Phantom/Duo TH170/230 combos. The Spin Track is the only thing different about them, and even then, they are relatively similar.

On that topic, I think SD should be removed from those combos as well. D and PD are much better choices, with D being the best.

(Feb. 12, 2013  12:50 AM)Ingulit Wrote:
(Feb. 12, 2013  12:25 AM)Wombat Wrote: I honestly think Gemios should be considered for Flash, being a similar size and shape to Escolpio. I'll test it when I have the time, seeing as there are currently no tests to back up my bold claim.

Doesn't Geminos cover Flash's slopes or something like that? If anything, I feel like Eonis should be added first (it's really good on Flash IMO).

I've never seen it tested, but Eonis seems like it would be good, seeing as it's pretty flat.


(Feb. 12, 2013  1:05 AM)KainHighwind Wrote: Wombat, I did combine Genbull and SR200TB already.

I will say that B:D might need to be considered for any Dragooon or right spin Synchroms that prove stamina worthy. Hmmm....maybe I need to try Genbull Genbull B:D.

I'll test Revizer/Killerken Dragooon B:D.
Well one thing to note with RDF on E230 is BD145 has more LAD, so RDF on E230 will consistently tie or barely OS things such as Killerken Dragooon DF105 LRF if there isn't a KO, while BD145 RDF will OS. I do like E230 RDF a lot though.
As far as Revizer Genbull SA165W2D goes, I informally tested it cause I was going to post tests in the Genbull thread. I can't confirm how it does vs Dragooon SA165EWD cause my EWD is missing, but I tried it vs Dragooon Dragooon BD145RDF, and that Dragooon combo mopped the floor with it. Hopefully someone with all the parts can confirm those tournament results.
I decided to test D vs TB. I used Killerken because I didn't have 2 Duo's or Phantoms (What I would want to use)

Gear
Segment Grip
String Launcher R
Grip Rubber Red
Angle Compass

Killerken ^2 SR200 TB vs Killerken ^2 SR200 D
TB Launched on Odd and D launched on even
Detail Results
TB:17 (17 OS)
D:3 (2 OS, 1 KO)

I hope these tests can help.

KainHighwind
Maybe MF makes a difference than RDF because Wombat posted MF. I'm testing it right now.
I find it quite hysterical that you have 4 Killerken's but only 1 Duo and Phantom. Random booster crazy I see?
(Feb. 12, 2013  2:16 AM)Meow! Wrote: I find it quite hysterical that you have 4 Killerken's but only 1 Duo and Phantom. Random booster crazy I see?

It's actually a pretty funny story. He only had 1 to begin with, but at a recent tournament he bought 3 Random Boosters and pulled 2 Archers and 1 Bandid. At least Killerken is a Top Tier wheel lol.
I think Variares should be top-tier for just a little bit of time. I tried it against MF Death Aquario E230CS, and it did pretty good at destabilizing it, except when the E230 was in Boost mode. I'm not "begging" for Variares to be Top-tier forever, I just want to see if it is still worthy of staying Top-tier. I also don't have Duo. I also get your guys' point about Variares not being worthy of the tier list.

Tests:
Could someone also try a benchmark with Flash?