1. Pegasis' main smash contact thingys is in its bottom half, it's not great for LTAC.
2. I'm talking about formal tests.
3. SD/D on W145? No.
2. I'm talking about formal tests.
3. SD/D on W145? No.
MFB: Limited :: Primer, Random Thoughts, and Q&A Thread!
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Can someone explain to me why you can use the tt core on a Hasbro l-drago gaurdian/destructor
It's the same mold, basically. Hasbro may have stuck lighter materials in it or something, but yeah. It's kinda a dicey zone in the rules that we're discussing at the moment in general, but for the time being at least, it remains legal.
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When Scout25 and I measured my Spark FX version versus the one from the Ultimate DX set, there was a considerable difference in weight. Perhaps it still is not overpowered, just thought I would put it out there.
Yeah, we know about that - http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Metal-Fu...el-Weights
The same goes for Hasbro's Kerbecs and BD145 - they're astonishingly light. There also seems to be a slight difference between Takara Tomy's two releases (weightwise, not just in rubber softness), hence discussion about legality of swapping them, and I mentioned it very recently as part of ongoing discussions about subcomponent swapping (which originally arose from F230 discussion).
However, Kai-V looked into it (though I do not think she is done doing so yet), and Takara Tomy's rule on the entire matter, at least in their published rulebook, is exceptionally vague - let me just dig up the translation I got:
As I see it, identical molds would be fine under that but it really leaves everything that specific to interpretation.
It does make Metal Fury L-Drago Guardian one of the heavier wheels, but it's still behind Virgo, Libra, Jade, Omega, and Screw Kerbecs (may be some crossover there with weight variation either way, and obviously this is only TT/SK's Kerbecs), and around the same weight as some of the heavier Scythe weights we have again with Kerbecs (which FWIW is actually very solid solo-spin wise from the few trials I did, well within the range of Cancer, with both being behind Unicorno II, all of which I find odd and would like others to look into as my solo spins are not that consistent).
As it stands, apparently the Metal Fury L-Drago's issue is balance, not weight anyway, so it's not a huge boon to them anyway, but Metal Fury L-Drago Guardian is something I am keeping a close eye on.
The same goes for Hasbro's Kerbecs and BD145 - they're astonishingly light. There also seems to be a slight difference between Takara Tomy's two releases (weightwise, not just in rubber softness), hence discussion about legality of swapping them, and I mentioned it very recently as part of ongoing discussions about subcomponent swapping (which originally arose from F230 discussion).
However, Kai-V looked into it (though I do not think she is done doing so yet), and Takara Tomy's rule on the entire matter, at least in their published rulebook, is exceptionally vague - let me just dig up the translation I got:
Takara Tomy Beyblade Rules - Beyblade Section Rule 12 Wrote:Combining parts in a way they were not originally intended to be used is prohibited.
As I see it, identical molds would be fine under that but it really leaves everything that specific to interpretation.
It does make Metal Fury L-Drago Guardian one of the heavier wheels, but it's still behind Virgo, Libra, Jade, Omega, and Screw Kerbecs (may be some crossover there with weight variation either way, and obviously this is only TT/SK's Kerbecs), and around the same weight as some of the heavier Scythe weights we have again with Kerbecs (which FWIW is actually very solid solo-spin wise from the few trials I did, well within the range of Cancer, with both being behind Unicorno II, all of which I find odd and would like others to look into as my solo spins are not that consistent).
As it stands, apparently the Metal Fury L-Drago's issue is balance, not weight anyway, so it's not a huge boon to them anyway, but Metal Fury L-Drago Guardian is something I am keeping a close eye on.
Then this kinda raises a question I thought up the other day
What defines a 4D wheel?
is it the mode based gimmick or the time period it was released. this could bring up help come to a decision with that ruling. but then I thought that if 4D wheel is considered 4D because of the gimmick then the TT l-drago guardian/destroy should be legal as they share the same gimmick as lightning and meteo. if a 4d wheel is basesd on the time released mercury is technically banned in limited because it was released at the same time.
What defines a 4D wheel?
is it the mode based gimmick or the time period it was released. this could bring up help come to a decision with that ruling. but then I thought that if 4D wheel is considered 4D because of the gimmick then the TT l-drago guardian/destroy should be legal as they share the same gimmick as lightning and meteo. if a 4d wheel is basesd on the time released mercury is technically banned in limited because it was released at the same time.
(Mar. 16, 2014 4:22 AM)geetster99 Wrote: Then this kinda raises a question I thought up the other day
What defines a 4D wheel?
is it the mode based gimmick or the time period it was released. this could bring up help come to a decision with that ruling. but then I thought that if 4D wheel is considered 4D because of the gimmick then the TT l-drago guardian/destroy should be legal as they share the same gimmick as lightning and meteo. if a 4d wheel is basesd on the time released mercury is technically banned in limited because it was released at the same time.
Takara specifically calling them all "4D Metal Wheels" and not referring to Forbidden, Cloud and Crash (the three regular Metal Wheels released after Big Bang Pegasis) as such is the definitive factor.
I mentioned this previously when someone asked about Mercury, and also that Mercury pre-dates 4D, being the initial release of 85 and XF.
And even if you were correct, the ruleset of limited is not confined by series anyway - Basalt, Hell and Gravity are not 4D Wheels, after all, and Jade and Omega are. The only thing this affects is if we need to state that those three wheels are legal in the rules. The fact we started with all 4D Metal Wheels banned was really just a coincidence to be honest - there wasn't enough data on Jade, Kreis and Omega to risk making them legal and it was simpler just to say "all 4d are banned" and then let people test to see if any of the weaker ones were able to be safely introduced.
just to be clear omega is legal in the limited format right?
I'm curious, is the banlist really not clear enough for people? I don't mean to sound irritated, but the number of times people are asking to check if things are legal or not that to me seem very, very clearly explained by the banlist is starting to worry me. Should we look at switching up the format or are people asking without checking the list?
no its my bad i missed the banlist and was actually going to change my post but was to late its my fault
is L-Drago Guardian ban I really need to Know
(Mar. 16, 2014 6:03 AM)FLASH SGTO Wrote: is L-Drago Guardian ban I really need to Know
Are you kidding me? Look at the ban list.... But just because I can't control myself from answering your question; the TT Ldrago guardian metal part (the plastic part (L-Drago III) is legal tho) is illegal. The hasbro metal fury is not.
(Mar. 16, 2014 5:55 AM)aurawolf Wrote: no its my bad i missed the banlist and was actually going to change my post but was to late its my fault
Oh, okay, thank you for being honest.
(Mar. 16, 2014 6:03 AM)FLASH SGTO Wrote: is L-Drago Guardian ban I really need to Know...
Anyway, I was throwing together a full list of banned parts, and I will say that allowing the TT/SK core part of LDD/LDG to be used with Hasbro's Non-Hyperblade L-Drago Destructor/L-Drago Guardian does stick out a bit, but then the hassle involved in banning the 4D/Hyperblade cores, aside from being an unnecessary ban, is a pain anyway. Those two wheels are annoying anyway, seeing as the Metal Fury versions are only differentiable by the underside (paint jobs can be removed, though in LDD's case this is not an easy thing by any measure), which Ingulit is getting pictures of.
The other thing that is annoying is that Hyperblades L-Drago Destructor's Metal Frame (Energy Ring lol) isn't differentiated from the Metal Fury one - on the rest, it seems that they added an 'I' to the end of them if they had a non-hyperblades counterpart, but I guess because "Destructor" is an Energy Ring they didn't bother? Ugh.
Kinda sad my new Libra doesn't work quite as well for MF-H Libra TH170CS as my beat up one. It looks so much nicer (and is .2g heavier) but it has a bit much recoil to handle MF Earth Sagittario II GB145CS, which is a shame as now I don't really have an easy non-RF go-to combo to recommend to people. Some consolation that the new Pegasis hits like a truck though, making it just that little bit more reliable against Libra LTDC (which is kinda scary, but then it's also not an easy wheel to use and not great against opposing attack types (also my RB has gone aggro so that's part of it too - much easier to KO now)).
Also noticed that RS's performance deteriorates rapidly after a certain point of wear, where the tip is short enough that it doesn't catch the ridge properly, and this happens fairly quickly. Just something to keep in mind if we for some reason ever look at unbanning RS (which I hope won't be the case, but I don't know) - if tests show it not being a threat to an attack type that doesn't hit very much upward (which is generally more successful vs RS - I guess perhaps because they're able to knock it off balance easier than RSF/RB) then that may well be the cause. That said, any decision to unban RS is something I'd only personally consider acceptable after very, very in-depth testing, to properly demonstrate the effect it has (which is basically to centralize/exaggerate the metagame, removing a lot of old stuff and making Lightning in particular much more prominent).
Oh, and the limited format testing requests thread should finally be up tomorrow. Ended up trashing the overwrought, multi-page draft I had because it was going nowhere (hence the delay - sorry guys!), and starting with something much simpler. Just a bit tired to format it properly right now. So uh I guess a) get your parts ready for some serious testing and b) get working on your suggestions and explanations.
Also noticed that RS's performance deteriorates rapidly after a certain point of wear, where the tip is short enough that it doesn't catch the ridge properly, and this happens fairly quickly. Just something to keep in mind if we for some reason ever look at unbanning RS (which I hope won't be the case, but I don't know) - if tests show it not being a threat to an attack type that doesn't hit very much upward (which is generally more successful vs RS - I guess perhaps because they're able to knock it off balance easier than RSF/RB) then that may well be the cause. That said, any decision to unban RS is something I'd only personally consider acceptable after very, very in-depth testing, to properly demonstrate the effect it has (which is basically to centralize/exaggerate the metagame, removing a lot of old stuff and making Lightning in particular much more prominent).
Oh, and the limited format testing requests thread should finally be up tomorrow. Ended up trashing the overwrought, multi-page draft I had because it was going nowhere (hence the delay - sorry guys!), and starting with something much simpler. Just a bit tired to format it properly right now. So uh I guess a) get your parts ready for some serious testing and b) get working on your suggestions and explanations.
yo can anyone test out kreis and fusion (4D of course) these two weren't that game breaking so it wont be so bad to introduce them into the new format but on second thought fusions weight and rubber could be a problem but that's what testing is for
Kreis has been tested by several members, mainly Th!nk, I believe- while outclassed in Standard, it's weight makes it a "wall" in Limited.
Fusion hasn't really been tested, to my knowledge- but for now, it seems it would be overpowered (for Defense).
Fusion hasn't really been tested, to my knowledge- but for now, it seems it would be overpowered (for Defense).
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Neither of them has seen all that much formal testing, but that's mainly because both are foregone conclusions due to their defensive prowess.
The current list of things I could potentially see the legality changing of are:
1. Metal Fury Scythe - this is practically an inevitability, as even if it isn't completely gamebreaking due to requiring some skill to use to beat a suitably large range of combinations, it is definitely bad for the format's health, acting as a pseudo-RS in terms of centralising attack around a few wheels and destroying the viability of a number of interesting customizations (in particular, a few Metal Flat customs). Just a waiting game at this point.
2. Gravity - Gravity should get another shot in future, as long as Libra stays around and RDF/SA165 don't come into the picture. As it stands, while I would like to do some two-person experimentation with it, I am very much unconvinced that (MF-L) Gravity Perseus/Perseus (Stamina) F230CF/GCF is nearly as powerful as it was made out to be (it doesn't strike me as significantly more threatening than MSF-L Dark Knight Genbull, as the dual spin doesn't really help when all the relevant left spin combinations are likely going to KO it either way (or are dumb spin-steal stuff that people should probably get over because it's just not that amazing in limited tbh)). I think the call was made too quickly, particularly in terms of the data it was based on. Gravity + CF/GCF is a strong combination no doubt, but the final tournament it was legal in gave rise to a number of customizations that are very much viable counters to it (and frankly, with the amount of 145-Height Lightning Attack customs that tournament saw I kinda feel like any unconscious aversion to using it on the grounds of it being 'too strong' would have paled in significance to the aversion to using it on the grounds of doing so being a downright stupid idea), and I think after that point, assuming people in other places actually took note of that, we would quickly see usage fall down to acceptable levels.
I also feel that as gravity could make a number of otherwise useless tracks and tips viable (something it would be cool if people looked into), we should focus to a degree on getting it back into the format. My suggestion would be to change the rule on dual spin launchers in Limited so that it is no longer legal to change directions between the different rounds of a beybattle. A lot of people said gravity was 'too safe', and I think that would change that. It would definitely be a very popular wheel and show up very regularly in winning combinations lists anyway, just because even with that it is still a good buy in terms of being dual spin, but I think it would be a worthwhile step.
I will probably propose something along these lines for post-BeyDays stuff, again though that would still depend upon me doing some two-person tests and the banlist staying relatively stable.
3. Libra - I anticipate some panic when certain combos, in particular MF-H Libra CH120RF, start dominating because the meta in most places seems to have shifted to one that is ripe for the picking for it. It is maybe very slightly too good, but removing it will leave a big hole in defense which will need to be filled by something - and that something will almost certainly require a lot less skill to use. I'm hoping if I say this enough I might reduce the inevitable knee-jerk reaction that'll occur but considering the reputation the wheel holds, those hopes are not that high.
4. RS - It would be a mistake, hurting the viability of a lot of older wheels severely and overcentralizng the attack meta to a few specific wheels, particularly Lightning. But, I can still see it happening if Libra gets banned.
5. RDF - Some parties will want this unbanned instead of RS, if it comes to that. I'm incredibly uncomfortable with the idea while Metal Fury LDG roams the format, and I think it's overall a much more dangerous tip than RS - instead of overcentralizing the attack meta around Lightning, it'll wreck attack entirely (in large part because people are comfortable with using RDF), which would remove a lot of the distinctive traits that have made Limited popular.
6. SA165: If Libra goes, this could be a more reasonable buff to defense than RS and RDF, seeing as Libra SA165 was one of the main problems with unbanning it. Would need to look into how various setups fare on it, but it may be the best option in a bad situation.
The next three are a big stretch, and incredibly unlike but I mean I guess I could see it happening.
7. Metal Fury L-Drago Guardian: It doesn't seem to be a threat but IDK I just can't get over it being one of the heavier wheels in the format, and based on a wheel that was decent for defensive spin steal etc. Oh, the cores from the 4D/hyperblade LDD/LDG could possibly get the boot if the ruling on them changes or whatever but yeah.
8. Omega/Jade: Maybe their weight and decent performance against all height will make them dominate the attack meta? Personally, I don't think they're significantly more threatening than Pegasis but I could see them maybe exiting the format at a stretch.
10: Hell: it would be a really bad move and is a huge stretch to consider. Between the elevation, offensive power, weight, and stamina, Hell would be an incredibly dominant force - kinda like AA2 Scythe, maybe a little more, and with a bit less defense/pure stamina and a tonne more attack and "being a massive pain on 230", except pretty much everyone would have it. Nonetheless, I'm also not entirely sure that any one hell combination is necessarily strong enough to make that as clear as it should be - again like Scythe, I feel it falls just a little bit short in terms of putting its incredible ability in each individual type to use properly in a single combination to really properly demonstrate its ability to affect the format, and based on that I could conceivably see it being discussed.
One or two other things have been mentioned but they're either incredibly unlikely or much, much more trouble than they're worth.
The current list of things I could potentially see the legality changing of are:
1. Metal Fury Scythe - this is practically an inevitability, as even if it isn't completely gamebreaking due to requiring some skill to use to beat a suitably large range of combinations, it is definitely bad for the format's health, acting as a pseudo-RS in terms of centralising attack around a few wheels and destroying the viability of a number of interesting customizations (in particular, a few Metal Flat customs). Just a waiting game at this point.
2. Gravity - Gravity should get another shot in future, as long as Libra stays around and RDF/SA165 don't come into the picture. As it stands, while I would like to do some two-person experimentation with it, I am very much unconvinced that (MF-L) Gravity Perseus/Perseus (Stamina) F230CF/GCF is nearly as powerful as it was made out to be (it doesn't strike me as significantly more threatening than MSF-L Dark Knight Genbull, as the dual spin doesn't really help when all the relevant left spin combinations are likely going to KO it either way (or are dumb spin-steal stuff that people should probably get over because it's just not that amazing in limited tbh)). I think the call was made too quickly, particularly in terms of the data it was based on. Gravity + CF/GCF is a strong combination no doubt, but the final tournament it was legal in gave rise to a number of customizations that are very much viable counters to it (and frankly, with the amount of 145-Height Lightning Attack customs that tournament saw I kinda feel like any unconscious aversion to using it on the grounds of it being 'too strong' would have paled in significance to the aversion to using it on the grounds of doing so being a downright stupid idea), and I think after that point, assuming people in other places actually took note of that, we would quickly see usage fall down to acceptable levels.
I also feel that as gravity could make a number of otherwise useless tracks and tips viable (something it would be cool if people looked into), we should focus to a degree on getting it back into the format. My suggestion would be to change the rule on dual spin launchers in Limited so that it is no longer legal to change directions between the different rounds of a beybattle. A lot of people said gravity was 'too safe', and I think that would change that. It would definitely be a very popular wheel and show up very regularly in winning combinations lists anyway, just because even with that it is still a good buy in terms of being dual spin, but I think it would be a worthwhile step.
I will probably propose something along these lines for post-BeyDays stuff, again though that would still depend upon me doing some two-person tests and the banlist staying relatively stable.
3. Libra - I anticipate some panic when certain combos, in particular MF-H Libra CH120RF, start dominating because the meta in most places seems to have shifted to one that is ripe for the picking for it. It is maybe very slightly too good, but removing it will leave a big hole in defense which will need to be filled by something - and that something will almost certainly require a lot less skill to use. I'm hoping if I say this enough I might reduce the inevitable knee-jerk reaction that'll occur but considering the reputation the wheel holds, those hopes are not that high.
4. RS - It would be a mistake, hurting the viability of a lot of older wheels severely and overcentralizng the attack meta to a few specific wheels, particularly Lightning. But, I can still see it happening if Libra gets banned.
5. RDF - Some parties will want this unbanned instead of RS, if it comes to that. I'm incredibly uncomfortable with the idea while Metal Fury LDG roams the format, and I think it's overall a much more dangerous tip than RS - instead of overcentralizing the attack meta around Lightning, it'll wreck attack entirely (in large part because people are comfortable with using RDF), which would remove a lot of the distinctive traits that have made Limited popular.
6. SA165: If Libra goes, this could be a more reasonable buff to defense than RS and RDF, seeing as Libra SA165 was one of the main problems with unbanning it. Would need to look into how various setups fare on it, but it may be the best option in a bad situation.
The next three are a big stretch, and incredibly unlike but I mean I guess I could see it happening.
7. Metal Fury L-Drago Guardian: It doesn't seem to be a threat but IDK I just can't get over it being one of the heavier wheels in the format, and based on a wheel that was decent for defensive spin steal etc. Oh, the cores from the 4D/hyperblade LDD/LDG could possibly get the boot if the ruling on them changes or whatever but yeah.
8. Omega/Jade: Maybe their weight and decent performance against all height will make them dominate the attack meta? Personally, I don't think they're significantly more threatening than Pegasis but I could see them maybe exiting the format at a stretch.
10: Hell: it would be a really bad move and is a huge stretch to consider. Between the elevation, offensive power, weight, and stamina, Hell would be an incredibly dominant force - kinda like AA2 Scythe, maybe a little more, and with a bit less defense/pure stamina and a tonne more attack and "being a massive pain on 230", except pretty much everyone would have it. Nonetheless, I'm also not entirely sure that any one hell combination is necessarily strong enough to make that as clear as it should be - again like Scythe, I feel it falls just a little bit short in terms of putting its incredible ability in each individual type to use properly in a single combination to really properly demonstrate its ability to affect the format, and based on that I could conceivably see it being discussed.
One or two other things have been mentioned but they're either incredibly unlikely or much, much more trouble than they're worth.
Omega doesn't really deserve a ban, considering its weight is really light.
I thought you guys test like a few dozen times about Jade and gets a result of recoil-prone?
I thought you guys test like a few dozen times about Jade and gets a result of recoil-prone?
Most of these things are unlikely scenarios and as I said, I disagree with most of them. I was basically aiming to list everything I could even vaguely conceive of as having a chance of being banned or unbanned - and the ones you mentioned are specifically in the "only if we've somehow missed something huge about them" section (though that now contains Hell which is more of a " or for some reason we make an incredibly uncharacteristic decision to give a "
I did miss one or two things in retrospect - I'll go fix that now, but the point was to respond to people asking if a particular part has been tested or will be banned or unbanned, not to state these things should happen (well, I got carried away with gravity and kinda did that there, but yeah), and narrow down the list of parts that could even remotely stand a chance of a legality change based on current knowledge. I did omit the Tornado Staller stuff some people were complaining about because while MF-L Burn Cancer 85MF beats a huge number of things, it still has straight counters even if it is used perfectly (which isn't the easiest thing to do) and there just isn't a reasonable way to get rid of it that doesn't have really tumultuous flow on effects that it by no means warrants.
That said, Omega is not at all light for Limited - it's the third heaviest wheel in the format, behind only Libra and Jade, accounting for a 3g+ Clear Wheel.
I did miss one or two things in retrospect - I'll go fix that now, but the point was to respond to people asking if a particular part has been tested or will be banned or unbanned, not to state these things should happen (well, I got carried away with gravity and kinda did that there, but yeah), and narrow down the list of parts that could even remotely stand a chance of a legality change based on current knowledge. I did omit the Tornado Staller stuff some people were complaining about because while MF-L Burn Cancer 85MF beats a huge number of things, it still has straight counters even if it is used perfectly (which isn't the easiest thing to do) and there just isn't a reasonable way to get rid of it that doesn't have really tumultuous flow on effects that it by no means warrants.
That said, Omega is not at all light for Limited - it's the third heaviest wheel in the format, behind only Libra and Jade, accounting for a 3g+ Clear Wheel.
I could see Gravity becoming legal, but restricted to one spin direction, yah (that's actually quite a brilliant idea). It would completely destroy the viability of Meteo, though, so if anyone likes it a lot that could be a consequence to brace for (I don't like it all that much myself, but I know a couple people who do).
I agree with everything you said completely, actually.
You guys do NOT want RDF in this format, especially if Gravity becomes legal again. The thing is reeeeeeeeeaaaally bad news (one of the best things about LTD is that Dragooon BD145RDF is absent, so I would hate to see anything remotely similar come into play, haha).
I agree with everything you said completely, actually.
You guys do NOT want RDF in this format, especially if Gravity becomes legal again. The thing is reeeeeeeeeaaaally bad news (one of the best things about LTD is that Dragooon BD145RDF is absent, so I would hate to see anything remotely similar come into play, haha).
![[Image: 68vfxj.jpg]](https://oi57.tinypic.com/68vfxj.jpg)
(Mar. 19, 2014 1:47 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: I could see Gravity becoming legal, but restricted to one spin direction, yah (that's actually quite a brilliant idea). It would completely destroy the viability of Meteo, though, so if anyone likes it a lot that could be a consequence to brace for (I don't like it all that much myself, but I know a couple people who do).
I agree with everything you said completely, actually.
You guys do NOT want RDF in this format, especially if Gravity becomes legal again. The thing is reeeeeeeeeaaaally bad news (one of the best things about LTD is that Dragooon BD145RDF is absent, so I would hate to see anything remotely similar come into play, haha).
I could also see Gravity being legal, though basically if it did this again it's going back to the ban list one way.........OR ANOTHER!!!!!! (lol).
I do agree though.Not enough data was made when it got banned. Gravity F230CF/GCF is never that big of an issue because of it's relative ease to KO, and the fact that Gravity suffers quite a lot of recoil means not using RDF AND BD145 is a risky proposal to use Gravity for spin-stealing. It's not that strong-it just got many people using it because of it being "safer" (i.e spinning both directions.) Honestly, I would rather use Screw, Vulcan, Lightning, Meteo (IIRC it's able to do "push" KO), Pegasis, etc etc. Gravity is not stronger than ANY of those in Attack (except Meteo, but that's out of the question since it's not used as an Attack metal wheel anyway) and won't work on spin-stealers (Gravity does not have rubber to absorb recoil from impacts which Meteo does) unless BD145RDF is used, which won't happen since they both are banned anyway.
RDF SHOULD NOT BE INTRODUCED!!!!! Gravity 85RDF, Meteo 85RDF and Earth 85RDF (Earth is awesome against spin stealing stuff, like Standard's Death/Duo) will wreck out the entire meta.
(RDF has good defense, and (despite having the worst stamina from the rubber tips) it's wobbling ability allows it to shut out ANYTHING in the opposite spin direction.
Even worse is when you add SA165 to the mix. MLD SA165RDF will end Limited in it's flames (lol I like puns) by wrecking RIGHT-SPIN completely.
GUYS........... PLEASE DON'T UNBAN THESE TWO. EVER.
Anyone willing to update the ban list's potential bannable/unbannable list?
Gravity F230CF/GCF was a problem, actually. IIRC I was the only person to actually beat it in the tournament, and it wasn't a shut-out either.
It's definitely counterable, but TBH it's still horrendously unhealthy (like, the only viable Stamina custom in a situation where it's legal).
It's definitely counterable, but TBH it's still horrendously unhealthy (like, the only viable Stamina custom in a situation where it's legal).
I would argue that Gravity is more of a threat than you think. Gravity + RDF = pain and death for all, but even without RDF, you can use something like Gravity Perseus (Attack) ED145RF and just KO Stamina and spin-steal on Defense. Against Attack you just go same-spin, avoid any significant contact, and OS, or go opposite-spin and smash the carp out of them when you slam into them head-on.