Spin steal loses to burn 85 mf even on f230 cf or b:d
MFB: Limited :: Primer, Random Thoughts, and Q&A Thread!
Are you guys serious? Try harder please, you're overreacting to a single tournament and burn 85mf is barely a threat in a format where attack is so viable. There are also heights between 145 and 230 where Cs still has enough stamina to outlast burn 85mf if I remember my time with the combo recently correctly - burn isn't even the best tornado stalling wheel lol (that honor goes to 0 cylinder rock from what I've tried so far (~20s less solo spin on 145WD and a heck of a lot more attack and weight, needs a regular Metal Face but that's included in the solo spin time) - though aquario is fantastic on low track MF as well as a more offensive option.
Finally, this is not the banlist discussion thread. I'd link you to it in a snarky manner but my computer is moving at a glacial pace for some reason.
Finally, this is not the banlist discussion thread. I'd link you to it in a snarky manner but my computer is moving at a glacial pace for some reason.
![[Image: UwZsp7A.png]](https://i.imgur.com/UwZsp7A.png)
...
Wut.
Attack guys. Burn 90 MF got ripped apart by Lightning last tourney.
If 85/90 is dominating your meta, I assume none of you are using Scythe/Duo 230/TH170CS/MB/TB/blahbaddy blahbaddy blah. I'd also assume none of you more using Scythe/Duo MTSC, as they don't work as LTSC, but will usually still beat the carp outta Earth/Burn LTSC.
B : D spin steal should be decimating it. Dat's weird.
Meteo L-Drago B : D vs. Burn Cygnus 90MF
L-Drago always launched first.
L-Drago: 3 (3 OS, 0 KO)
Cygnus: 17 (6 OS, 11 KO)
L-Drago Win %: 15.0%
Scratch that, totally accurate. Burn 90MF has the perfect height/shape for destabilizing/KOing Meteo B : D.
However, B : D is a 160 height, the highest you can get before you hit tracks 200 and taller. Let us see what happens if we kick it down to, say, CH120:
Meteo L-Drago CH120EWD vs. Burn Cygnus 90MF
L-Drago always launched first.
L-Drago: 8 (8 OS, 0 KO)
Cygnus: 2 (0 OS, 2 KO)
L-Drago Win %: 80.0%
Yup. There goes... well, that. You need the extreme height advantage to beat a spin-equalizer with Burn MF. It's doable (and frankly, with all these kids running around with their Bearing Drives, quite a useful attribute), but if you just think through things it's a simple problem to solve. Most conventional Stamina types can beat it anyway (it can OS some Earth stuff, but Burn/Scythe/Duo should wreck it).
Sorry for the ten-round tests. We're having dinner in a few seconds here. Surprised I got done what I did, haha.
Wut.
Attack guys. Burn 90 MF got ripped apart by Lightning last tourney.
If 85/90 is dominating your meta, I assume none of you are using Scythe/Duo 230/TH170CS/MB/TB/blahbaddy blahbaddy blah. I'd also assume none of you more using Scythe/Duo MTSC, as they don't work as LTSC, but will usually still beat the carp outta Earth/Burn LTSC.
B : D spin steal should be decimating it. Dat's weird.
Meteo L-Drago B : D vs. Burn Cygnus 90MF
L-Drago always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
Cygnus: 17 (6 OS, 11 KO)
L-Drago Win %: 15.0%
Scratch that, totally accurate. Burn 90MF has the perfect height/shape for destabilizing/KOing Meteo B : D.
However, B : D is a 160 height, the highest you can get before you hit tracks 200 and taller. Let us see what happens if we kick it down to, say, CH120:
Meteo L-Drago CH120EWD vs. Burn Cygnus 90MF
L-Drago always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
Cygnus: 2 (0 OS, 2 KO)
L-Drago Win %: 80.0%
Yup. There goes... well, that. You need the extreme height advantage to beat a spin-equalizer with Burn MF. It's doable (and frankly, with all these kids running around with their Bearing Drives, quite a useful attribute), but if you just think through things it's a simple problem to solve. Most conventional Stamina types can beat it anyway (it can OS some Earth stuff, but Burn/Scythe/Duo should wreck it).
Sorry for the ten-round tests. We're having dinner in a few seconds here. Surprised I got done what I did, haha.
![[Image: 68vfxj.jpg]](https://oi57.tinypic.com/68vfxj.jpg)
For the record tho, spin steal kinda sucks now and I like that. Answer to Burn 85MF is the same as the answer to stamina: Knock It Out. MF-H Pegasis CH120RF is a monster in Limited, and honestly Limited attack is a lot easier to use than Standard format attack due to the lighter weights. Heck, if that's too risky, good ol' MF-H Libra CH120RF will do the job just fine too - burn can have fun colliding with like 50g of megabulky anger from any direction.
And if you really are unable to sliding shoot or even bloody straight shoot Libra, you could also use stamina at awkward heights for it that it still can't outspin, or various CS things, some of which are extremely useful combos overall - basically get TH170, experiment with it, win.
If you got swept by Burn 85MF, it's your fault for not being adequately prepared tbh, I know it sounds harsh but it's the truth, and limited will not adapt for under-preparedness.
And as I said last post - ban thread is thataway: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MFB-Limi...on?page=21
And if you really are unable to sliding shoot or even bloody straight shoot Libra, you could also use stamina at awkward heights for it that it still can't outspin, or various CS things, some of which are extremely useful combos overall - basically get TH170, experiment with it, win.
If you got swept by Burn 85MF, it's your fault for not being adequately prepared tbh, I know it sounds harsh but it's the truth, and limited will not adapt for under-preparedness.
And as I said last post - ban thread is thataway: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MFB-Limi...on?page=21
tbh I wouldn't use Attack against a tornado staller; they tend to just dodge stuff, which is really obnoxious (unless you're going lefty in which case have fun with your free KOs)
But yeah, tall stuff is generally a safe bet against anything low-track, unless they're using Screw or Escolpio.
But yeah, tall stuff is generally a safe bet against anything low-track, unless they're using Screw or Escolpio.
Oh, right, morninghead what am I saying - tbh I'm pretty sure that Burn just runs into Libra Ch120RF from behind and bounces out the exit either way but in that case um LLD is kinda a good wheel - perhaps TR145 won't cut it, burn's shape can ramp you off, but CH120 is absolutely no contest. Just... LLD, straight shoot, KO. If they bank they get about two laps of avoiding you at best before they start to stall and BAM head on collision which burn ain't winning. MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang R145RF works too, thanks to its bulk, Burn runs into it and then gets thrown backwards and eventually finds an exit. The way I see it, even if that is the only real counter (it isn't, but let's just pretend for a moment), it's so reliable and these combinations good enough in general that it really just rewards people for using attack.
FWIW, Burn is also too hit-and-miss vs Earth Cygnus 85EWD for me (and as I've been using an MF attack custom the last few days, it's not like I'm not landing a tonne of hits, they're just not hard enough).
Now, 0 Cylinder Rock is more dicey (MF Rock Cancer 85MF), as it has solid weight to it, but its slightly poorer stamina means certain CS things can be problematic, even without needing Metal Fury Scythe (as for Duo, I'd think its light weight could be an issue) - again a matter of knowing a good combination's practical counters.
Even Screw on 100 can't hit every height. Aquario is extremely good at that on 90/100 but even it has blind spots. TH170 is an amazing track in Limited - heavy, versatile, and also really well shaped (that upper bulk traps stuff below it and pushes it downwards), without being too OP (easy to KO for CH120 up).
I'm playing around with MF-L Burn Cancer 85MF as I'm writing/editing this post so yeah.
Oh, by the way, to me this is just demonstrating something I've noticed pretty strongly: a huge number of extremely good combinations in the format have been largely ignored so far, Canada included a few of the Libra ones in their tournament which is nice, but yeah, in tournaments so far Limited is still warming up - I don't know if anyone is actually getting bored of it yet but uh yeah if anyone was, I suggest they play around some more because oh man there's so, so much more that people just aren't using that actually rocks super hard.
FWIW, Burn is also too hit-and-miss vs Earth Cygnus 85EWD for me (and as I've been using an MF attack custom the last few days, it's not like I'm not landing a tonne of hits, they're just not hard enough).
Now, 0 Cylinder Rock is more dicey (MF Rock Cancer 85MF), as it has solid weight to it, but its slightly poorer stamina means certain CS things can be problematic, even without needing Metal Fury Scythe (as for Duo, I'd think its light weight could be an issue) - again a matter of knowing a good combination's practical counters.
Even Screw on 100 can't hit every height. Aquario is extremely good at that on 90/100 but even it has blind spots. TH170 is an amazing track in Limited - heavy, versatile, and also really well shaped (that upper bulk traps stuff below it and pushes it downwards), without being too OP (easy to KO for CH120 up).
I'm playing around with MF-L Burn Cancer 85MF as I'm writing/editing this post so yeah.
Oh, by the way, to me this is just demonstrating something I've noticed pretty strongly: a huge number of extremely good combinations in the format have been largely ignored so far, Canada included a few of the Libra ones in their tournament which is nice, but yeah, in tournaments so far Limited is still warming up - I don't know if anyone is actually getting bored of it yet but uh yeah if anyone was, I suggest they play around some more because oh man there's so, so much more that people just aren't using that actually rocks super hard.
lol that first paragraph is really weird and rambly... definitely can tell you are sleepy XD
Took me about two reads to make sense of it XD
EDIT: Also, did I see a nickname there? what exactly is 0 Cylinder Rock?
EDIT2: Aaand for all of you reading this by now th!nk's edited his post
It was hilarious though
Took me about two reads to make sense of it XD
EDIT: Also, did I see a nickname there? what exactly is 0 Cylinder Rock?
EDIT2: Aaand for all of you reading this by now th!nk's edited his post
It was hilarious though
A mould of Rock.
IIRC it's a mould of the metal wheel rock.
Edit: Beaten.
Edit: Beaten.
Oh, right, should've done this a post or so ago, but let's carry on the discussion over here, okay: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MFB-Limi...pid1197692
That's where it belongs, after all.
That's where it belongs, after all.
@th!nk: Ya left out all the 230 Stamina combinations, LOL. Especially Scythe Pegasis II 230CS. Legit stuff bro.
Burn MF isn't a problem. I beat the carp out of it so many times at my last tournament I find it funny anyone would consider it problematic haha. Could just be me, but their are so many viable counters I don't see why it could be.
I also find it funny that we're molding the format to get people to use Attack. XD
Burn MF isn't a problem. I beat the carp out of it so many times at my last tournament I find it funny anyone would consider it problematic haha. Could just be me, but their are so many viable counters I don't see why it could be.
I also find it funny that we're molding the format to get people to use Attack. XD
I moved my banlist post to the appropriate thread so I'll edit my response to the bulk of your post into that, but I'll respond to the attack remark here. Keep in mind this is a general response to something I've seen mentioned a few times and thus not all aimed at you/I'm not offended or anything, just want to clear the air ye?
We're not trying to make Attack unstoppable (I am definitely encouraging people to use attack more often (because it's good and they should do so), but certainly not molding the format that way). It may seem like that, but that's because of the fact so many wheels in the format that are borderline viable are aggressive, so to maximise the number of viable wheels, attack should generally be a little strong - plus it takes skill to use, and the general agreement that Attack friendly formats are more enjoyable/more skill-focussed and so on also plays a role (I also find that those unfamiliar with beyblade are a lot more interested in battles where something is sent flying - so that's good too), but nonetheless we're not trying to make it so defense (and let's not forget Anti-Attack) is a joke - we already have HMS, and it's fun, but if we had full part availability the winning combos list would be 3 different Samurai Upper+Grip Flat Core (Ultimate Version) combos maybe with different Weight Disks at best. I'm vocal about it simply because I'm worried people will forget and Limited will lose one of it's most attractive traits - being attack friendly but balanced. I find despite it being widely accepted people still overestimate how confident people are to use Attack in tournaments and how much harder it is to do so, so just because it seems strong doesn't mean it's going to actually be that strong in practice, so I generally try to compensate for that by being somewhat more pro-attack than I actually am (FWIW this is almost always the case with anything I'm particularly vocal about).
The contrast is also exacerbated by the fact Standard and Zero-G (ignoring the whole F230 thing I guess) are more even-in-a-vacuum rather than even-in-reality - basically attack is roughly as good as the other types - as long as you're extremely consistent with attack. Not a huge thing, and perhaps I'm actually wrong about it - admittedly I haven't played a tonne of Standard nor any Zero-G, but nonetheless I think that is a factor in how things appear.
Anyway, what I mean to say is that it's really the other way around - the fact Attack is very viable in the format is why I am not too worried about something that is easily, consistently handled by Attack, especially if you don't even need to sliding shoot to do it. just seems different to many other formats because they're heavier which makes attack a bit harder to use (both in launching and in what they have to do to win). Most right spin attack (and definitely Libra anti-attack) does well enough against tornado stallers (especially burn) for me to not really be phased by them at all, personally.
We're not trying to make Attack unstoppable (I am definitely encouraging people to use attack more often (because it's good and they should do so), but certainly not molding the format that way). It may seem like that, but that's because of the fact so many wheels in the format that are borderline viable are aggressive, so to maximise the number of viable wheels, attack should generally be a little strong - plus it takes skill to use, and the general agreement that Attack friendly formats are more enjoyable/more skill-focussed and so on also plays a role (I also find that those unfamiliar with beyblade are a lot more interested in battles where something is sent flying - so that's good too), but nonetheless we're not trying to make it so defense (and let's not forget Anti-Attack) is a joke - we already have HMS, and it's fun, but if we had full part availability the winning combos list would be 3 different Samurai Upper+Grip Flat Core (Ultimate Version) combos maybe with different Weight Disks at best. I'm vocal about it simply because I'm worried people will forget and Limited will lose one of it's most attractive traits - being attack friendly but balanced. I find despite it being widely accepted people still overestimate how confident people are to use Attack in tournaments and how much harder it is to do so, so just because it seems strong doesn't mean it's going to actually be that strong in practice, so I generally try to compensate for that by being somewhat more pro-attack than I actually am (FWIW this is almost always the case with anything I'm particularly vocal about).
The contrast is also exacerbated by the fact Standard and Zero-G (ignoring the whole F230 thing I guess) are more even-in-a-vacuum rather than even-in-reality - basically attack is roughly as good as the other types - as long as you're extremely consistent with attack. Not a huge thing, and perhaps I'm actually wrong about it - admittedly I haven't played a tonne of Standard nor any Zero-G, but nonetheless I think that is a factor in how things appear.
Anyway, what I mean to say is that it's really the other way around - the fact Attack is very viable in the format is why I am not too worried about something that is easily, consistently handled by Attack, especially if you don't even need to sliding shoot to do it. just seems different to many other formats because they're heavier which makes attack a bit harder to use (both in launching and in what they have to do to win). Most right spin attack (and definitely Libra anti-attack) does well enough against tornado stallers (especially burn) for me to not really be phased by them at all, personally.
LOL, that's not what I meant haha (I absolutely didn't intend for it to sound like an Attack remark). Probably should've worded it better. Perhaps "molding" was too strong a word.
My point was that, whenever mention of the format being Attack-friendly comes up, people seem to associate it with people's reluctance to use them and see it as a positive point in the sense that people will be more open to using Attack customizations, by saying things like "... will reward people for using Attack more."
One of the reasons for trying to keep the format Attack-friendly is to encourage people to use it, and make things more interesting, is it not?
I think it's awesome, personally. In NC, no one ever uses interesting stuff, except in LTD, where we're all like "LLLLIIIIIGGGGGHHHTTTTNNNIIINNNGGG SSSSPPPPAAAMMM!!!"
It's boss. All Attack all the time would just be the coolest thing ever (obviously not realistic, but a man can dream).
So yah. Essentially, it's kinda funny that we need to build an ideal environment for Attack types to get people to use them haha. Sorry if I confused anyone (I certainly don't think anyone is trying to make Attack unstoppable, especially with the legalization of RB/ban of Gravity last month; anyone who does, if they're out there, can't be paying much attention to discussion).
I probably should have said "I find it funny that people won't use Attack unless we set it up to work well for them," or something like that (I'm tired and full of processed sugar OK).
My point was that, whenever mention of the format being Attack-friendly comes up, people seem to associate it with people's reluctance to use them and see it as a positive point in the sense that people will be more open to using Attack customizations, by saying things like "... will reward people for using Attack more."
One of the reasons for trying to keep the format Attack-friendly is to encourage people to use it, and make things more interesting, is it not?
I think it's awesome, personally. In NC, no one ever uses interesting stuff, except in LTD, where we're all like "LLLLIIIIIGGGGGHHHTTTTNNNIIINNNGGG SSSSPPPPAAAMMM!!!"
It's boss. All Attack all the time would just be the coolest thing ever (obviously not realistic, but a man can dream).
So yah. Essentially, it's kinda funny that we need to build an ideal environment for Attack types to get people to use them haha. Sorry if I confused anyone (I certainly don't think anyone is trying to make Attack unstoppable, especially with the legalization of RB/ban of Gravity last month; anyone who does, if they're out there, can't be paying much attention to discussion).
I probably should have said "I find it funny that people won't use Attack unless we set it up to work well for them," or something like that (I'm tired and full of processed sugar OK).
Basically what I was trying to say aside from the ramble was that its not that we're really setting it up so that Attack is super powerful so much as that is a side effect of making sure as many wheels as possible in the range we were aiming to focus on viable.
Before RS/RSF came out, MFB was pretty much that way already - sure there were things like Libra CH120RF and other RF defense but the latter weren't really known (partially due to an annoying idea that "defense can't be mobile" which IIRC I was pretty quick to realise was dumb + not related to how well Earth 85RF worked anyway, and partially due to reluctance to use RF I guess), and the former was legitimately gamebreaking and banned as a result. Of course, we all know that still didn't manage haha.
But then as I mentioned, there's HMS which is pretty much "all attack all the time" (bar the best attack RC's being expensive/rare and based on what I hear of it (which indicates it's about as friendly to Attack as Hasbro's Bolt Blast Stadium) the Tornado Balance Stadium).
As for Limited in NC, well, personally I would say enjoy it while it lasts, but that sounds too negative. I just doubt Lightning will continue to dominate for a huge amount of time - Libra anti attack is going to have to rock up sooner or later (though it's still rubber flat anyway) and Lightning doesn't enjoy running headfirst into something with a ~8g weight advantage and relatively low recoil moving at similar speeds. Libra has its own set of weaknesses though (i.e. defense types) and isn't as reliable vs right spin stuff (and there's also stuff like DK Wyvang that does a bit better because of its weight etc etc) so I doubt it'll make things significantly less interesting.
Before RS/RSF came out, MFB was pretty much that way already - sure there were things like Libra CH120RF and other RF defense but the latter weren't really known (partially due to an annoying idea that "defense can't be mobile" which IIRC I was pretty quick to realise was dumb + not related to how well Earth 85RF worked anyway, and partially due to reluctance to use RF I guess), and the former was legitimately gamebreaking and banned as a result. Of course, we all know that still didn't manage haha.
But then as I mentioned, there's HMS which is pretty much "all attack all the time" (bar the best attack RC's being expensive/rare and based on what I hear of it (which indicates it's about as friendly to Attack as Hasbro's Bolt Blast Stadium) the Tornado Balance Stadium).
As for Limited in NC, well, personally I would say enjoy it while it lasts, but that sounds too negative. I just doubt Lightning will continue to dominate for a huge amount of time - Libra anti attack is going to have to rock up sooner or later (though it's still rubber flat anyway) and Lightning doesn't enjoy running headfirst into something with a ~8g weight advantage and relatively low recoil moving at similar speeds. Libra has its own set of weaknesses though (i.e. defense types) and isn't as reliable vs right spin stuff (and there's also stuff like DK Wyvang that does a bit better because of its weight etc etc) so I doubt it'll make things significantly less interesting.
Concerning LDD and LDG we are allowed to use the takara rubber, but not metal frames right?
(Mar. 01, 2014 5:03 PM)Time Wrote: Concerning LDD and LDG we are allowed to use the takara rubber, but not metal frames right?
Correct - the cores from Takara/SonoKong/Hyperblades LDD/LDG may be used, but the Metal Frames may not. Ingulit was working on comparative pictures of the undersides of the Metal Fury and regular versions of the Metal Frames for those two as a guide for hosts, too, seeing as they are much more similar than the other Metal Fury incarnations.
Twus confused because I wasn't sure when it was released. Delete posts plz lol.
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(Mar. 03, 2014 4:12 AM)PRO SEAGULL Wrote: I searched and couldn't find anything, but is the Mercury metal wheel legal? Technically it's a 4D wheel, but of course it doesn't match up at all.
Gotta say I'm curious as to why you thought it was a 4D wheel - Mercury is much, much older, IIRC the original release of 85 and XF, the Legend version was a re-release.
Anyway at <30g I kinda doubt it would matter anyway, but yeah, it's legal.
EDIT: Oh, while I'm here, for future reference in case the question gets asked about Forbidden, Crash, or Cloud - "4D Metal Wheel" (often called "4D Wheel", something I myself have done which I just noticed is completely incorrect) is an official term for that system, which isn't based on the release date but what Takara Tomy classify each wheel as (eg L Drago Destroy and L Drago Guardian aren't really that different design-wise from MLD/LDD or any HWS beyblade really, but are classified as 4D Metal Wheels). There is a specific name for the main metal part of each system, in fact, which is what we use on beywiki:
Metal System: Wheel
4D System: 4D Metal Wheel
Zero G System: Chrome Wheel
aaand the one we use incorrectly to refer to the others very, very regularly:
Hybrid Wheel System: Metal Wheel
The distinction with Forbidden is that it is referred to as a Metal Wheel in Random Booster 8's instructions, as opposed to Jade which is referred to as a 4D Metal Wheel.
Heck, the same goes for Clear Wheels - Clear Wheel (HWS), 4D Clear Wheel (4D System), Crystal Wheel (Zero-G) - but the difference between regular and 4D Clear Wheels is negligible - I think it was because of the metal powder used but really that's a pretty insignificant thing.
Probably it is a noob question, but why Reviser has poor balance despite it looks circular and well-balanced on its outlook?
What can Reviser be used with when non-syncchromed?
What can Reviser be used with when non-syncchromed?
(Mar. 03, 2014 5:37 PM)天翔翼 TenshouYoku Wrote: Probably it is a noob question, but why Reviser has poor balance despite it looks circular and well-balanced on its outlook?
What can Reviser be used with when non-syncchromed?
It would only look balanced if you were not very good at determining what is/isn't balanced from appearances or decided it "looked balance" without actually having enough angles of it to make that determination - being circular is completely meaningless if there is too much or too little weight over a section causing an imbalance (which is what imbalance is).
Plenty of things - but the result will basically always suck because un-synchromed Revizer has some of the worst balance of any wheel in any format.
(Mar. 03, 2014 5:37 PM)天翔翼 TenshouYoku Wrote: Probably it is a noob question, but why Reviser has poor balance despite it looks circular and well-balanced on its outlook?
What can Reviser be used with when non-syncchromed?
One side has a hole and the other side has more metal and a piece of metal Poking out.
Nothing really. There are better choices for defence, attack, stamina and balance.
EDIT: Y u always beat me, th!nk?
While it might look well balanced, its weight isn't as evenly distributed as its topside would lead you to believe.
Because Revizer's so poorly balanced and light without Synchrome, it has found few practical applications in Defense in comparison to more effective Wheels, such as Earth, Libra, and even Genbull.
EDIT: Beated-d-d-d by TheLibraKing.
EDIT2: Holy carp fish, doubly by th!nk too.
Because Revizer's so poorly balanced and light without Synchrome, it has found few practical applications in Defense in comparison to more effective Wheels, such as Earth, Libra, and even Genbull.
EDIT: Beated-d-d-d by TheLibraKing.
EDIT2: Holy carp fish, doubly by th!nk too.
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I see. Holding it in hands just won't tell u the exact balance.......
thx guys, appreciate ur help.
thx guys, appreciate ur help.
Fake tests (Click to View)