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MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)

Aug. 13, 2014  1:04 PM
 
I think he was being sarcastic. The hybrid wheel system is Metal Fight Beyblade as we know it: a beyblade made up of a facebolt, clear wheel, metal wheel, spin track, and performance tip,
Aug. 13, 2014  1:07 PM
 
I didn't see the trickier haha. Sorry Neo.
Aug. 13, 2014  1:33 PM
 
(Aug. 13, 2014  12:41 PM)Poseidon Wrote: Not really, LTD is about letting underused parts shine.

Even though Neo was just making a joke, I'd still like to point this out:

Take both Earth and Pegasis for instance, two of the most competitive wheels in the Limited Format metagame; They're wheels that are presently outclassed in Standard, however, the two were competitive at some points, so they were never underused in their meta period by any means. Same goes for other competitive wheels that did show what they were able to do at one point in Standard like Lightning for attack (discluding Lightning Tank, of course) and Meteo for its potential in spin steal. Smile

(Aug. 13, 2014  12:41 PM)Poseidon Wrote: from my point of view, there is nothing about hell that makes it deserve it's ban.

I'm going to have to agree on this one. Despite it being heavy-weighted (which is the targeted reason why it was given a ban), the Hell results I done using MF-L Hell Cancer 125W2D against attack, shown that they seemed to kill it. Here's what I was able to get down, if any of you would like to see them:

Midnight in the [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell thread Wrote:
Spoiler (Click to View)

On another note, I and others were told by LMAO that Kreis was in need of an unbanning. That in mind, I'd kind of want to see some test results utilizing the piece in the future.
Aug. 13, 2014  6:28 PM
 
Hell 230CS really does seem to be a big problem, it gets 50% against Omega from my testing. And it beats quite a few of the Good stamina combos.
Aug. 13, 2014  8:07 PM
 
(Aug. 13, 2014  1:33 PM)~Midnight~ Wrote: Despite it being heavy-weighted (which is the targeted reason why it was given a ban), the Hell results I done using MF-L Hell Cancer 125W2D against attack, shown that they seemed to kill it.

That's because Attack beats Stamina, haha. I don't think Earth would do much better.

And, as long as my heart is still pumping and I still have one finger that can type on a keyboard, NOBODY is EVER gonna unban Kreis without an incredibly irritating amount of resistance from me, lol. MSF-H Kreis Cygnus 85RB is absolutely immoveable.
Aug. 15, 2014  10:03 PM
 
(Aug. 13, 2014  8:07 PM)TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ Wrote:
(Aug. 13, 2014  1:33 PM)~Midnight~ Wrote: Despite it being heavy-weighted (which is the targeted reason why it was given a ban), the Hell results I done using MF-L Hell Cancer 125W2D against attack, shown that they seemed to kill it.

That's because Attack beats Stamina, haha. I don't think Earth would do much better.

And, as long as my heart is still pumping and I still have one finger that can type on a keyboard, NOBODY is EVER gonna unban Kreis without an incredibly irritating amount of resistance from me, lol. MSF-H Kreis Cygnus 85RB is absolutely immoveable.

u wot m8 Chocked_2


But seriously, I've tried Kreis too and it's ridiculous. No unban for you, swan-thing.
Sep. 07, 2014  10:25 PM
 
Beat Lynx.
Are the Habro and Takara identical? Is one banned and the other not? Like Hasbro Duo not being banned.

Talking about this. Looks very diff from Takara.

[Image: maxresdefault.jpg]
Sep. 07, 2014  10:27 PM
 
The Hasbro is diffferent from the Takara. The Takara one is banned in Limited.
Sep. 07, 2014  10:32 PM
 
(Sep. 07, 2014  10:27 PM)Echizen Wrote: The Hasbro is diffferent from the Takara. The Takara one is banned in Limited.

Thanks = )
Whats the weight on the Takara version? Anyone know?
Sep. 07, 2014  10:34 PM
 
38.6 grams.

http://wiki.worldbeyblade.org/index.php/...nx_TH170WD
Sep. 07, 2014  11:42 PM
 
(Sep. 07, 2014  10:34 PM)Echizen Wrote: 38.6 grams.

http://wiki.worldbeyblade.org/index.php/...nx_TH170WD

Derp, sorry. Pinching_eyes_2
Habro weighs in at *will edit later tongiht*
Sep. 08, 2014  1:43 AM
 
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Metal-Fu...pid1181122

The Metal Fury Metal Wheel Weights thread's OP could really use an update. @[OldSchoolâ„¢], it would be best if you posted your Beat's weight there.


EDIT: tagging y u no work
Mar. 25, 2015  8:20 PM
 
I personally think ALL rubber tips should be banned. They are aggressive to the point that they are one hit ko.
Mar. 25, 2015  8:51 PM
 
(Mar. 25, 2015  8:20 PM)SiontheHedgehog Wrote: I personally think ALL rubber tips should be banned. They are aggressive to the point that they are one hit ko.

A good Attack type on a flat Rubber tip will OHKO anything but a Defense type, but that's the entire point of Attack. Without rubber tips, Defense and Attack would not be viable. Limited would degrade into endless Stamina battles, and would pretty much ruin the game.
Mar. 25, 2015  10:49 PM
 
(Mar. 25, 2015  8:51 PM)Cake Wrote:
(Mar. 25, 2015  8:20 PM)SiontheHedgehog Wrote: I personally think ALL rubber tips should be banned. They are aggressive to the point that they are one hit ko.

A good Attack type on a flat Rubber tip will OHKO anything but a Defense type, but that's the entire point of Attack. Without rubber tips, Defense and Attack would not be viable. Limited would degrade into endless Stamina battles, and would pretty much ruin the game.

Yeah.... I had my mf pegasis 85 r2f (i used r2df instead of rf) brutally KO kreis cygnus...

Not saying attack types would.... but if they are going to use rf, please bring back all other rubber tips... a good stamina type could easily defeat rs or rdf!
Mar. 25, 2015  11:08 PM
 
(Mar. 25, 2015  8:20 PM)SiontheHedgehog Wrote: I personally think ALL rubber tips should be banned. They are aggressive to the point that they are one hit ko.

I don't think they should because all of the battles would be stamina and Limited would be really boring.
Mar. 25, 2015  11:43 PM
 
(Mar. 25, 2015  10:49 PM)SiontheHedgehog Wrote:
(Mar. 25, 2015  8:51 PM)Cake Wrote:
(Mar. 25, 2015  8:20 PM)SiontheHedgehog Wrote: I personally think ALL rubber tips should be banned. They are aggressive to the point that they are one hit ko.

A good Attack type on a flat Rubber tip will OHKO anything but a Defense type, but that's the entire point of Attack. Without rubber tips, Defense and Attack would not be viable. Limited would degrade into endless Stamina battles, and would pretty much ruin the game.

Yeah.... I had my mf pegasis 85 r2f (i used r2df instead of rf) brutally KO kreis cygnus...

Not saying attack types would.... but if they are going to use rf, please bring back all other rubber tips... a good stamina type could easily defeat rs or rdf!

Left spin + RDF = total game breaker for Limited. RDF is good enough to take strong hits from Attack, while giving WD-style precession/LAD/whatever, making a left-spin Defense type (which can resist Attack and spin-steal from anything right spin) absurdly hard to beat.

The metagame is pretty well balanced as it is, though. I can't personally say whether RS deserves its spot on the ban list, as I have next to no experience with it, but I expect that the people who say it's crazy strong know what they are talking about. RDF would be crazy strong, though, and it's a good thing it's banned.
Mar. 28, 2015  8:16 PM
 
The problem with RS is that it is incredible against same spin direction opponents. And against opposite spin direction opponents it varies from being OK to terrible. My tests from when RS was first released–which are amusingly now very relevant to Limited–illustrate this: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-RS-Discussion

After re-watching the carnage Attack types dealt out at GRAND BATTLE TOURNAMENT 2 I've realized that Limited probably does need a slight boost in the viability of defensive customs, but I would not want to unban RS because it would shut down all right-spin attackers. Defense should beat Attack, but not at a staggering 100% of the time rate.
Mar. 29, 2015  3:03 AM
 
(Mar. 28, 2015  8:16 PM)Kei Wrote: After re-watching the carnage Attack types dealt out at GRAND BATTLE TOURNAMENT 2 I've realized that Limited probably does need a slight boost in the viability of defensive customs, but I would not want to unban RS because it would shut down all right-spin attackers. Defense should beat Attack, but not at a staggering 100% of the time rate.

I'm nowhere near as experienced or knowledgeable about Limited as you are, but I think it's fine the way it is. I don't think Defense should necessarily beat Attack, since the dominance of Attackers in the metagame is supposed to be balanced out by their riskiness and people's inconsistency while using them/reluctance to use them in tournaments. Sometimes when I'm practicing I can KO pretty much any combo consistently with Omega, but that won't always happen every day; it's even less likely during an event when I'm nervous.

How would we go about buffing Defense anyways? If not RS, unban Fusion or Kreis? I don't have a real version of either right now but from what I've heard from TheBlackDragon and maybe a few other people both of them are pretty unstoppable with MF-H and 85RB.

Sorry if any of this came off as offensive or rude, I definitely didn't mean it that way.
Mar. 29, 2015  9:19 AM
 
(Mar. 28, 2015  8:16 PM)Kei Wrote: The problem with RS is that it is incredible against same spin direction opponents. And against opposite spin direction opponents it varies from being OK to terrible. My tests from when RS was first released–which are amusingly now very relevant to Limited–illustrate this: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-RS-Discussion

Seeing as those first tests with an R145RS against Lightning aren't so good, I think the really only issue would be for RS to be on an LTDC; against all attack, they're hard enough to KO when RSF and RB are used whereas that would be the same with RS; arguably being a bit less– in my opinion– balanced, though. RS being used on an HTDC and MTDC would probably be a lot less successful against left-spin attack; the same as RSF and RB most of the time.

So, with that, not too sure what to say, considering that left-spin would probably be just about as successful against HTDC and MTDC with RS than with RSF and RB.

Comparison testings between bottoms would be pretty interesting to see.
Mar. 29, 2015  7:56 PM
 
(Mar. 29, 2015  3:03 AM)Wombat Wrote:
(Mar. 28, 2015  8:16 PM)Kei Wrote: After re-watching the carnage Attack types dealt out at GRAND BATTLE TOURNAMENT 2 I've realized that Limited probably does need a slight boost in the viability of defensive customs, but I would not want to unban RS because it would shut down all right-spin attackers. Defense should beat Attack, but not at a staggering 100% of the time rate.
How would we go about buffing Defense anyways? If not RS, unban Fusion or Kreis? I don't have a real version of either right now but from what I've heard from TheBlackDragon and maybe a few other people both of them are pretty unstoppable with MF-H and 85RB.

I can confirm that Kries is a beast in Limited. After I first heard that Kries was probably too strong to be unbanned, I tested it out; it pretty much stonewalled any Attack-type I threw at it, and did decently in the Stamina department to boot.

Here's all the options to buff Defense that I can think of:

Metal Wheels:
- Kries: Very high Defense and decent Stamina make it too strong.
- Fusion: No personal experience with it, but I'm seeing it being a strong Stamina option due to the rubber (making it stop opponents very quickly on hit, then winning due to its greater mass)
- Basalt: Overpowered for lots of reasons. Nope nope nope
- L-Drago Guardian: Probably not that great of a Defense option anyways, and would make left-spin a whole lot stronger (and thus hurt Defense even more)

Tracks:
- BD145: Definitely needs to stay banned. Would more or less negate all those nice little LTACs running around.
- SA165: Too powerful on left-spin, and also causes difficulties for LTACs.

Tips:
- RS: Makes same-spin Defense nearly unbeatable against Attack.
- RDF: Makes opposite-spin Defense nearly unbeatable against anything.

Result:
Nothing is really safe to be unbanned at this point, IMO, without serious reworking of the whole banlist to re-balance things. However, I do not own Omega or Scythe, so if Kries happens to be vulnerable to either of those, it could be a possibility.
Mar. 30, 2015  1:00 AM
 
(Mar. 29, 2015  3:03 AM)Wombat Wrote: I'm nowhere near as experienced or knowledgeable about Limited as you are, but I think it's fine the way it is. I don't think Defense should necessarily beat Attack, since the dominance of Attackers in the metagame is supposed to be balanced out by their riskiness and people's inconsistency while using them/reluctance to use them in tournaments. Sometimes when I'm practicing I can KO pretty much any combo consistently with Omega, but that won't always happen every day; it's even less likely during an event when I'm nervous.

How would we go about buffing Defense anyways? If not RS, unban Fusion or Kreis? I don't have a real version of either right now but from what I've heard from TheBlackDragon and maybe a few other people both of them are pretty unstoppable with MF-H and 85RB.

Sorry if any of this came off as offensive or rude, I definitely didn't mean it that way.

Defense should beat Attack the majority of the time because that is what it is designed to do. Defense beats Attack, Attack beats Stamina, Stamina beats Defense; that's how it should work on a fundamental, simplified level. What I'm saying is that RS allows Defense to be overpowered against same spin direction opponents. Attack should be able to beat Defense with some level of skill on the Attack users side, but RS versus same spin attack has a nearly 100% win rate; that's too high.

That said, yes we have established that Attack should be maybe a little overpowered from an objective standpoint since we are considering the skill required to use them, but I personally think they are a bit too powerful at this point. Even with skill involved, I don't think an Attack user should have the level of consistency and sheer power seen in GRAND BATTLE TOURNAMENT 2. They should have an advantage on some level because Attack inherently has greater ability to overcome it's shortcomings (as opposed to pure Defense types inability to overcome the fact that they cannot outspin a Stamina type, an Attack type has the potential to overcome the type that is supposed to defeat it: Defense), but there has to be a perfect balance ... finding that is the hard part.

(Mar. 29, 2015  7:56 PM)Cake Wrote: Result:
Nothing is really safe to be unbanned at this point, IMO, without serious reworking of the whole banlist to re-balance things. However, I do not own Omega or Scythe, so if Kries happens to be vulnerable to either of those, it could be a possibility.

That's one option that might be worth exploring, but here's another, potentially crazier idea:

Ban the most powerful Attack Wheels: Omega & Lightning. Omega because it is the heaviest and one of the most cleanly-hitting Metal Wheels, and Lightning because it is also incredibly cleanly-hitting, low recoil, agile without feeling too light, and because it is left-spin.

And here's the crazy part ... maybe all left-spinning Wheels too: L Drago, Meteo, VariAres, Dark Knight or Dragooon, L Drago Guardian, and L Drago Destroy. I think people underestimate the dimension having a left-spin Attacker (especially one covered in plastic, as is the case with Lightning) brings to a game filled with right-spin Beyblades and poor to average defensive options. The ability to intercept an opposing Beyblade with powerful head-on collisions and to destabilize/spin-equalize them by spinning the opposite direction is I think more valuable than the idea of 'chasing' and pushing with a same spin direction Attacker in many situations.

The problem with this is that while left-spin Attack is maybe too powerful on a fundamental level in a format with primarily right-spin Beyblades and no great defensive Bottoms or Tracks, I don't think using them in Stamina or Defense combos is a problem. But at the same time, we can't do a complicated ban like Left-Spin Wheels + Aggressive Bottoms. That said, maybe we wouldn't have to go as far as banning all left-spin Wheels; maybe VariAres, L Drago, etc. aren't as great against Libra RB/RSF as Lightning is.

Another issue I've noticed since the beginning of Limited Format is the power of RSF-based (and RB when it was introduced) Attackers. These have been seriously underused by a lot of people. They have several reliable counters, but have little trouble beating Defense as it currently stands and most Stamina combos. The reason I mention this is because if even these types of less-aggressive combos can defeat Defense, what does that say about how poor the type is in this format?

At this point, maybe the best solution is to unban RS. It's not ideal, but because it is so specialized in it's function, there would always be some risk involved in choosing it for a BeyBattle; if you guess wrong and face anything other than an Attack type, you'll probably lose. Even in Standard you rarely saw it before RDF was introduced because of this (at this point in Standard, even though RS is still great defensively, there is little reason to use it when Bottoms with much more versatility without sacrificing much defensive power exist).

So, I don't know what the answer is, but I would be interested to hear more thoughts about what could potentially be done (or not done haha). Do more of you think Attack types are a problem or not? Is Attack still reliant enough on skill that for most average Attack users, Limited Format Defense combos would still be a bit of a threat? Maybe it only seemed like an issue to me because the footage I was watching was of players who are very skilled with Attack.
Mar. 30, 2015  1:46 AM
 
I think RS should definitely get some new tests, to compare with other popular Limited setups against Attack. I personally never saw that it was so powerful myself, but understood it generally was considered to be. I'll try to test when I get a chance, though.

I feel that Attack would be a bigger issue it were "easier" to use, per say. Since it takes a bit to pull off Attack properly (launch technique, part ware, etc.), it's used a bit less than other types, I feel. Stamina on the other hand can be easily launched and used, so it's used more often. If anyone gets what I mean here, though, haha.


If you were serious about considering all Left-wheels being banned, I'd have to disagree. Limiting spin direction would really put a slam on things, from my perspective. Limited already bans a lot of part options to make room for others and I personally see limiting spin direction won't really help too much, in the long run. I mean, I understand the idea behind that, but in the end, I feel like limiting that many parts would only hurt the fun of the format. I mean, if we begin to ban more and more parts, one day we'll end up with Limited V2 as a reality, haha.
Mar. 30, 2015  2:04 AM
 
Well first of all I'm glad you understood what I was trying to get across with the "Defense shouldn't beat Attack" point. I didn't really communicate that as well as I meant to.

(Mar. 30, 2015  1:00 AM)Kei Wrote: They should have an advantage on some level because Attack inherently has greater ability to overcome it's shortcomings (as opposed to pure Defense types inability to overcome the fact that they cannot outspin a Stamina type, an Attack type has the potential to overcome the type that is supposed to defeat it: Defense), but there has to be a perfect balance ... finding that is the hard part.

I wouldn't say that Attack has a greater ability to overcome Defense, it takes as much skill to beat Attack with Stamina, or Stamina with Defense. For Stamina, you have to watch where the opponent is launching and launch your Beyblade accordingly to avoid the first few attacks. For Defense, you have to launch aggressively to try and KO or just really hard and go for the OS (which is possible, I've OSed BGrin using RSF on multiple occasions).

(Mar. 30, 2015  1:00 AM)Kei Wrote: That's one option that might be worth exploring, but here's another, potentially crazier idea:

Ban the most powerful Attack Wheels: Omega & Lightning. Omega because it is the heaviest and one of the most cleanly-hitting Metal Wheels, and Lightning because it is also incredibly cleanly-hitting, low recoil, agile without feeling too light, and because it is left-spin.

Well, with no Omega people would use Screw, Wyvang, Pegasis, Cosmic, Vulcan, Phoenic, and maybe some other stuff I'm forgetting, but either way that still covers pretty much every angle of Attack.

With no Lightning people are stuck with Dark Knight LTAC and not much else. There's F230GCF on your L-Drago of choice but would CF/GCF be considered "aggressive" if it's purpose it not to KO but to have the outer ring for LAD?

I don't know how I feel about Omega yet, but I think Lightning needs to stay because of the variety it brings without being too overpowered.

EDIT: Yeah, basically how Leone19 put it. Getting rid of Lightning will just limit people's options further, and that's not really healthy (which is ironic because the format is called Limited).

(Mar. 30, 2015  1:00 AM)Kei Wrote: Another issue I've noticed since the beginning of Limited Format is the power of RSF-based (and RB when it was introduced) Attackers. These have been seriously underused by a lot of people. They have several reliable counters, but have little trouble beating Defense as it currently stands and most Stamina combos. The reason I mention this is because if even these types of less-aggressive combos can defeat Defense, what does that say about how poor the type is in this format?

Maybe that is what Defense needs to do to be more successful, and what TheBlackDragon was trying to get across in his Defense Reformation thread (it was for Standard but the point still stands). While I'm not a huge fan of RF based Defense I can vouch for aggressively launching RB and RSF if the need arises. They can serve the purpose of initiating the hit almost as well as RF, while having more Stamina and the option of being launched stationary, something RF can't do.
Mar. 30, 2015  1:21 PM
 
Again, RS, RB and RSF comparative defense testings would be nice to see.

I also wouldn't ban all left-spin wheels and Dark Knight.

I think the ones meant for attack definitely have the upper-hand over right-spin attack -easier KOs against defense can be made, and from my experience, it's unlikely, but the alternative destabilization against HTDC and MTDC- but even so, that would be taking away a bit of the present attack section of the Limited tier-list. I've almost always seen that in a match between Ronin LTAC and Lightning regardless of the height, Ronin LTAC had the better chance of winning, so I wouldn't ban lightning over Ronin (consider that it can also have some stamina use, too). As for VariAres, lets consider that we have like zero testings on it, so we don't know about it's overall attack potential. Sure, it's left-spin, but you can't necessarily base it's success off of it. I am, however, not too sure about Dragooon.

And other L-Drago wheels- I wouldn't ban them. They're realistically only use is for Stamina and on F230, whereas it's not a threat in Limited as it is. It would actually be less of a threat if they were, seeing is the matches would always be right-spin vs right-spin. Meteo stamina can also be KO'ed easily or for that matter, lose in a match of stamina.

Back to RS, RSF and RB, I'm not even going to deny that a banning RSF and RB and an unbanning of RS may be necessary. Whereas RS has use for defense and defense only, RSF and RB can be used for their aggression and attack purpose and also like Wombat said, they can hit almost as well as RF, but at the same time have a good amount of stamina, something neither RF or RS can't do.
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