It started with Wombat's post in the original read saying there was an agreement not to use Gravity becaus it was "Cheap".

I'm very interested to see what Attack will do with all these "Curve-balls", with RB being unbanned and no Gravity.

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6 God is watching and I hope you're prepared to face him

Oh also for Jade testers, really keen to see what the viability of force smash/taller attack combos with it is like in general, seeing as scythe's topside is its weakness defensively (though depending what jade's recoil is like it could go the other way haha), and scythe's defense is really my main concern with it game-balance wise (though various setups with it on CS, eg TH170CS are gonna be more problematic for less aggressive areas). As for CH120RF, with that I do understand holding off, seeing as it is on RF so that moderates usage somewhat, but it's still p ridiculously good.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

There are serious issues regarding the recent North Carolina tournament that make me doubt the overall credibility : person A says an agreement was vaguely made or at least implied about not using Gravity, person B says no agreement was made at all and that certain parts just 'suck', and then person C says an agreement was made about not using F230CF. Yo, did you all go to the same event ? I am an investigator, obviously at least two people are lying here.

There are serious issues regarding the recent North Carolina tournament that make me doubt the overall credibility : person A says an agreement was vaguely made or at least implied about not using Gravity, person B says no agreement was made at all and that certain parts just 'suck', and then person C says an agreement was made about not using F230CF. Yo, did you all go to the same event ? I am an investigator, obviously at least two people are lying here.

I personally don't recall any agrement being made. (Tho I didn't pay attention to what everyone was doing) Im the kinda of person who is bold enough to say something sucks if it sucks. Just how i am. In North Carolina there are some people who say "Hey lets have an F230 CF free match". Of course the judge can't enforce that. And i never would. I never agreed to anything like that. If i wanna use F230 CF i will. Some of the other bladers might've made that kind of pact this past weekend. But I didn't. And I can't say I heard it either.

There was rumblings about how unfair F230 CF is in general. But other then that.

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In regards to the Limited NC event:

Some people "Agreed" not to use F230 CF, me I said forget that. I spammed the poop out of it. Personally I used Gravity as a hybrid. Lighting is hands down better for attack. Lighting was KOing the poop out of everything. I saw it send everything across the room(LITERALLY) Lighting ____LRF says sup.

But what about this???

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6 God is watching and I hope you're prepared to face him

In regards to the Limited NC event:

Some people "Agreed" not to use F230 CF, me I said forget that. I spammed the poop out of it. Personally I used Gravity as a hybrid. Lighting is hands down better for attack. Lighting was KOing the poop out of everything. I saw it send everything across the room(LITERALLY) Lighting ____LRF says sup.

But what about this???

I mean to clarify, it was more of an "unspoken" agreement. It was as if using Gravity and/or F230(G)CF would kind of give you a bad reputation (I really don't know how else to put this). At least, that was the implication I got.

For TheBlackDragon or Thunder Dome or Dr.Pepsidew or whoever this might include: Did you purposefully refrain from using a Gravity custom over another custom that would have served the same purpose (i.e. using Lightning/Wyvang over Gravity for Attack)?

If the answer to this question is yes, then there was at least some kind of reluctance or whatever that made you choose not to take advantage of Gravity's versatility over whatever you used instead.

Hmm, well it still stands that they purposely didn't use Gravity, correct?

Anyways, I have some tests that adds onto the Jade discussion.

MF-H Jade Bull GB145R2F Vs. MF-H Earth Hades 85RSF

Jade: 10(8KO, 2OS)
Earth: 10(3KO, 7OS)
Ties: 1

Jade Win Percentage: 50%

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6 God is watching and I hope you're prepared to face him

It was more of an unspoken thing. Like if you used F230 Cf you were a bad person or something.

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My 2 cents on Gravity.

Apart from the "overpowered" reason, which was summarized rather nicely by most of you via tests and reasoning, personally, I also considered another subject, which is the overuse.

Yes, the “overpowered” part can be controversial since some will always different results and mindset. But, when paired with the possibility of it being overly used as an Attack, Spin Stealer, Hybrid Stamina & Attack, etc, some of which have equal or better success rate. It becomes safer, if not better to put it on the ban list, at the very least, for the time being.

While we can argue that Gravity is great or mediocre, we can’t deny its existence in the events, dominant or not. Even if certain Gravity combinations didn't make it into the Winning Combo thread, people did use it quite frequent. Personally, it is a more exciting meta to be able to face relatively unknown combinations than variations of Gravity.

---------------

Do keep in mind that the whole origin of the Limited format is to allow parts that are otherwise obsolete nowadays to see some functions, which in turns will hopefully open up old / new plethora of combinations, which brings me to my next point:

While we are on topic of Ban List, I would like to ask all of you guys this;

What constitutes a part to be 'ban-worthy'?

To anyone who are about to answer the question with "Broken" or "OP", please expand on it and elaborate a bit more.

Kira: Thanks for that. Someone should get a 4D Jade Discussion thread going so we can collate testing + discussion there, I think.

Uwik: I'll write up my thoughts on the banworthiness thing when I've got some caffeine in me, because it's a complex issue as I see it and seeing as I was pretty active in the discussions that eventually led to the starting banlist, it's probably a good idea to get my thoughts down.
Thanks very much for posting your thoughts - it's good to see some of the reasoning behind the decision. I don't have much to say in response myself, seeing as I'm still torn on that one but yeah, I appreciate it.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I didn't mean an essay of descriptions for each parts. You know this, right? A more general reasoning on the term itself would suffice.

It fine to have Gravity banned but...it not even close to bi monthly? Shouldn't it be effective on February or after this weekend tournament?

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[img=0x150]https://media.giphy.com/media/Q2DabV4eRh160/giphy.gif[/img]

I didn't mean an essay of descriptions for each parts. You know this, right? A more general reasoning on the term itself would suffice.

Naw, 'course not, pretty sure after the post a few pages back where I gave the reasons each MW was banned/not realistically unbannable I've already done that. However seeing as I sense some reservations about a possible very long post, here's the shortest version I can manage:

The general idea with limited is to maximise the number of viable wheels (seeing as these are generally the key part), with a focus on the pre-maximum series releases (up until the max series parts were generally pretty evenly balanced at least post-rsf), so if something has a significant negative impact on that, it is banworthy. The second factor is balancing the types in a tournament scenario, though due to the aggressive nature of most pre-maximum wheels, this generally comes as part of the former anyway, because if defense is too strong then the weaker attack wheels just can't be used. Thirdly, in the case of outright brokenness, the metagame has to shift significantly in response to a combination, generally because it beats the standard attack, defense and stamina customs, and brokenness is banworthy.

Viable basically refers to "usable at a tournament to win against good combinations". Bull can KO any stamina type as long as it can hit the MW, even Dark 85RF can be enough of a pain to beat attack (though generally speaking good defense wheels are fairly limited pre-basalt, and the natural factors that lower attack type usage play a part here), and Thermal can outspin defense - uh well, Earth and Libra Defense, anyway*
Obviously where you draw the line on what something should beat is another matter but generally I go for an advantageous height matchup for Defense (and Attack though generally that's same height for a lot of wheels) and same height for Stamina. The line on attack might be drawn even further, because of how closely related to confidence it is, for example RS generally scared off a lot of right spin wheels if I remember correctly.

*Not Scythe Defense, at least with my Scythe, from what I can tell. (Click to View)

Part of the reason Scythe is too strong is that while Earth and Flame W145WD manage to OS MF-H Scythe Cancer GB145RSF (for me, of course, with my AA2 Scythe), Burn gets smacked around so much with a little banking of Scythe it's almost always gonna find an exit especially with a more aggro RSF, but it could still manage at a tournament. Thermal however, just gets smacked around a bit and then outspun.
Obviously this is just from informal testing but for right now the consistency and margin is p clear. Will do some formal ones tonight or tomorrow.

I hope that's sufficient and sorry for bringing up Scythe, but I stumbled on what I posted while rechecking stuff for this post and to me it probably deserves mentioning

@Stars: pay attention to the official banlist discussion in the advanced forum, stuff like that is mentioned there.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

... so if something has a significant negative impact on that, it is banworthy.

Could you elaborate a bit more on this 'significant negative impact'? Is it the excessive use of certain wheels = stagnant meta?

The second factor is balancing the types in a tournament scenario, though due to the aggressive nature of most pre-maximum wheels, this generally comes as part of the former anyway, because if defense is too strong then the weaker attack wheels just can't be used.

Thirdly, in the case of outright brokenness, the metagame has to shift significantly in response to a combination, generally because it beats the standard attack, defense and stamina customs, and brokenness is banworthy.

I think your 2nd and 3rd point pretty much mean the same thing. A combination or a part that is excessively better than most (broken / overpowered), will throw off the balance of a meta.

When is a part considered 'broken' anyway? Is one or two people's opinion & tests representative enough to summarize it? Is one or two 'isolated' regional metas representative enough? Where do we draw this invisible line?

It means that it makes a significant number of wheels non-viable as per my definition of viable below it, for example Thermal isn't viable with Scythe around (of course, if an area lacks Scythe, then it might be viable there, but generally for this we work with a theoretical meta where part availability isn't an issue). By a significant number I'm not sure exactly where I draw the line off the top of my head because so far I've only really looked at things that severely hurt a significant portion of the format.

No, for actual brokenness I'm talking about not just throwing off balance between the types, but shifting away from types and towards "X and counters to X". Basalt forcing attack types to use BD145 for example, trading smash off for weight and some spin-steal ability.

Brokenness is generally obvious anyway unless there's a second factor at play (like a mold difference) but as for how much testing is needed, in my personal opinion, with appropriate benchmarking and range of tests, a minimum of 2 known-reliable testers would be sufficient (though preferably a third to confirm certain things is also good if at all possible), but that's keeping in mind tester availability as a factor, so if the part is reasonably common then you should be able to get more tests than that. Keep in mind I'm used to working in Plastics where there are extremely few people who can test things. In cases of scarcity, the reason the number of testers has to be lowered is because otherwise it becomes too easy for people who have a rare but gamebreaking/overpowered part to keep the fact it's broken quiet and therefore gain what would generally be considered an unfair advantage in the beypoints system (at least, it means there's some incentive to do so). Keep in mind here that I'm used to the scarcity of testers in plastics so I'm generally going to have a bit of that mindset lingering, haha.

Tournament usage is good, but I'd never consider something worth banning without testing (again, unless we're talking about a rare part being unstoppable and simply cannot get anyone to test it, though hopefully that will never happen) as there's more margin for error in tournaments - it's first to three, not how many out of 20, and there are a wider range of factors at play.

As mentioned above, most of this has to be done in a theoretical meta with full part availability and no biases towards certain things that aren't borne out by testing combined with suitable consideration of reasons behind usage.

There's a bit of a gap with regards to balance things but generally it depends on what they're facing/what they do etc. Got a headache right now and can't think straight so I'll give that more thought another time.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

If I would have stayed for limited, 2 of the 3 combos I had utilized Gravity, just for the record.

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

Forget it
Gravity < so many beys if used right. Heck its solo spin is nearly a minute less than rock. But people can't think outside their simplistic ways and this is what you get.

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Tournaments I've Hosted (Click to View)

1. 3/31/12 East Lansing MI Fools Rush In
   
2. 5/26/12 Grand Rapids MI Grand Bey Day Battle of the Millenium
   
3. 6/24/12 Rochester Hills MI AJ's Sendoff: A legend is never forgotten
   
4. 7/14/12 Grand Rapids MI Midsummer Scorcher
   
5. 8/18/12 Grand Rapids MI Summer's Last Blast
   
6. 9/7/12 Grand Rapids MI Back to School Blading 101
   
7. 12/2/12 Wayne MI Wyatt's Birthday Bash
   
8. 1/26/13 Lansing MI The Wintery SnowBey Fight
   
9. 11/30/13 Holland MI Synchrom Saturday
   
10. 12/21/13 Niles Illinois The Blizzard Bey Battle
    
11. 2/9/14 Kalamazoo, MI, Blade Breaking into the Zoo LTD
    
12. 2/9/14 Kalamazoo, MI, Blade Breaking into the Zoo Standard
    

Michigan BeyRankings (Click to View)

Michigan's updated rankings as of 12/24/13
#19 Yuko Ray14 1508 [A]
#79 Fang Wolf 1346 [A]
#140 Panasher 1273 [R]
#196 The Archer 1229 [PT]
#224 Wyatt V2 1215 [A]
#244 Coach 1202 [A]
#249 DaWRETCHED-one 1200 [R]
7 bladers 1973 above 1,000 beypoints

Out of area regular:
#152 Shining God MS 1262 [A]

West MI thread / MI thread / NEW Google+now working / NEW Youtube Channel

Rock is one of the better solo spin wheels in the format though, it's also got a lot more recoil than gravity (though I am playing with a 0 cylinder rock tornado staller (MF(-L?) Rock Kerbecs 85/90MF) as one of the various ideas I have that I need to get around to testing formally). Don't need the best stamina if you're stealing spin anyway, just gotta be more efficient.

Personally, I am comfortable facing down just about anything except libra/scythe CH120RF with MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK) R145RF. Different strokes for different folks. Just because a part is banned doesn't mean people can't keep looking for counters etc to show that it doesn't deserve to stay that way.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I need to clarify something again. There was absolutely no agreement, spoken or "unspoken," not to use Gravity customs at Raleigh-Revival-Taking Back the City [LTD]. I just don't like Gravity. I would far rather use Lighting than Gravity on an Attack custom in just about an given situation, and that's what I did.

Gravity was used multiple times. It just got wrecked.

The only thing I was dead set on not using was Gravity F230 (although I had to in the finals because Dark called 30 seconds on my stalling clause and it was the only thing I had built that was decent), but everyone else used it anyway. It couldn't take Lightning, though, so it only made it into the winning combos once.

But you gotta remember, those are F230 customs, not conventional Attack/Stamina.

EDIT: By the way, when Wombat said that I told everyone to spam Lightning Attack against Dark because he was using Gravity F230CF, I was suggesting Lightning because it is one of the very few Attack wheels that can take down Gravity F230 customs. Gravity itself can't do it, Cosmic can't do it, Vulcan can't do it (well, sometimes, but not nearly as consistently), and plenty of other stuff can't do it.

I do consider spamming Gravity F230 to be an extremely cheap game plan (again, conventional Attack/Stamina is a different story altogether, and most players in NC agree with that), and when people do things like that here in NC and VÀ, we all tend to kick it up a notch to make sure they get the message that we don't like cheap tactics.

It wasn't a "don't use Gravity because it's cheap," it was a "use Lightning because it works."

People seem to still think that I do not consider Gravity F230 broken. I do. It's an abomination to the game and I usually don't give much respect to those who abuse it, but conventional Attack/Stamina are a completely different factor altogether.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

Rock is one of the better solo spin wheels in the format though, it's also got a lot more recoil than gravity (though I am playing with a 0 cylinder rock tornado staller (MF(-L?) Rock Kerbecs 85/90MF) as one of the various ideas I have that I need to get around to testing formally). Don't need the best stamina if you're stealing spin anyway, just gotta be more efficient.

Preliminary testing rock bull 85wd vs. Gravity Perseus F230CF 5-0 w one tie. Yes orange f230 as well...

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Tournaments I've Hosted (Click to View)

1. 3/31/12 East Lansing MI Fools Rush In
   
2. 5/26/12 Grand Rapids MI Grand Bey Day Battle of the Millenium
   
3. 6/24/12 Rochester Hills MI AJ's Sendoff: A legend is never forgotten
   
4. 7/14/12 Grand Rapids MI Midsummer Scorcher
   
5. 8/18/12 Grand Rapids MI Summer's Last Blast
   
6. 9/7/12 Grand Rapids MI Back to School Blading 101
   
7. 12/2/12 Wayne MI Wyatt's Birthday Bash
   
8. 1/26/13 Lansing MI The Wintery SnowBey Fight
   
9. 11/30/13 Holland MI Synchrom Saturday
   
10. 12/21/13 Niles Illinois The Blizzard Bey Battle
    
11. 2/9/14 Kalamazoo, MI, Blade Breaking into the Zoo LTD
    
12. 2/9/14 Kalamazoo, MI, Blade Breaking into the Zoo Standard
    

Michigan BeyRankings (Click to View)

Michigan's updated rankings as of 12/24/13
#19 Yuko Ray14 1508 [A]
#79 Fang Wolf 1346 [A]
#140 Panasher 1273 [R]
#196 The Archer 1229 [PT]
#224 Wyatt V2 1215 [A]
#244 Coach 1202 [A]
#249 DaWRETCHED-one 1200 [R]
7 bladers 1973 above 1,000 beypoints

Out of area regular:
#152 Shining God MS 1262 [A]

West MI thread / MI thread / NEW Google+now working / NEW Youtube Channel

A skilled opponent using F230GCF would go for the KO or at least have Rock scrape enough to OS it, which shouldn't hard since Gravity has a fairly large overhang.

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Tournaments I've Attended (Click to View)

4/29/12: The Spring Sortie (BB-10)
7/22/12: The Triple Threat (MFB+Plastics+HMS formats)
9/23/12: Autumn's Assault (Zero G)
October 2012: October Achtung (Zero G) (placed second)
12/15/12: Holiday Havoc! (Zero-G)
2/24/13: Paper vs. Plastic (Zero-G+Plastic Formats)
4/21/13: BR Maryland Qualifier (Zero-G)
5/26/12: BeyDays 2013! (BB-10) (placed first)
7/14/13: Heated Metal Plastic-y Madness! (HMS + Plastics) (placed third in HMS)
7/20/13: The Bey Brawl! (BB-10)
9/28/13 "OK, alright, mirai~!" (BB-10) (placed second)
12/15/13 No Limit Holdem'! (Zero-G, Limited)
1/19/14 Happy Gnu Year! (Zero-G)
2/23/14 Better Late Than Never! (Limited, Plastics, which I got 3rd in)
3/29/14 GBT2 North Carolina Qualfier (Limited, got 4th)
3/30/14 GBT2 Maryland Qualifier (Limited)
6/8/14 A Prehistoric Venture (Limited, HMS, placed first in HMS)
6/21/14 A Timely Farewell (Standard, Tag-Team (not official format), Zero-G, placed first in tag-team and third in Zero-G)

My Testing Threads (All Zero-G) (Click to View)

Diablo Kerbecs E230CF
SB Discussion
Q Discussion
MB Discussion
RS Discussion
BWD Discussion
MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145 RDF
MF-H Duo F230CF
F:S Discussion
SA165 Discussion

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HMS Question and Answer Thread
Competitive HMS Combos List
HMS Parts Discussion
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Rock is one of the better solo spin wheels in the format though, it's also got a lot more recoil than gravity (though I am playing with a 0 cylinder rock tornado staller (MF(-L?) Rock Kerbecs 85/90MF) as one of the various ideas I have that I need to get around to testing formally). Don't need the best stamina if you're stealing spin anyway, just gotta be more efficient.

Preliminary testing rock bull 85wd vs. Gravity Perseus F230CF 5-0 w one tie. Yes orange f230 as well...

Why not Burn Cygnus 100/90 EWD?

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I am an odd person sometimes, here's why (Click to View)

People seem to still think that I do not consider Gravity F230 broken. I do. It's an abomination to the game and I usually don't give much respect to those who abuse it, but conventional Attack/Stamina are a completely different factor altogether.

I think it is extremely powerful as well, but I don't think it's fair to lower your respect for someone who uses something that they think will give them the best chance to win just because you see it as an "abomination". If something is legal, there's no reason why you shouldn't take advantage of it. If it is truly a problem, it will be banned (as was the case with Gravity). But that has nothing to do with the character of the person using it besides perhaps suggesting that they are trying their best to win (as anybody should be) with what options they have available to them. I think that your displeasure in situations like these is perhaps being misdirected; it should be at the custom/part itself and it's legality, not the person who decides to play within the rules and use it.

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EDIT: By the way, when Wombat said that I told everyone to spam Lightning Attack against Dark because he was using Gravity F230CF, I was suggesting Lightning because it is one of the very few Attack wheels that can take down Gravity F230 customs. Gravity itself can't do it, Cosmic can't do it, Vulcan can't do it (well, sometimes, but not nearly as consistently), and plenty of other stuff can't do it.

I do consider spamming Gravity F230 to be an extremely cheap game plan (again, conventional Attack/Stamina is a different story altogether, and most players in NC agree with that), and when people do things like that here in NC and VÀ, we all tend to kick it up a notch to make sure they get the message that we don't like cheap tactics.

It wasn't a "don't use Gravity because it's cheap," it was a "use Lightning because it works."

People seem to still think that I do not consider Gravity F230 broken. I do. It's an abomination to the game and I usually don't give much respect to those who abuse it, but conventional Attack/Stamina are a completely different factor altogether.

This is more of what I was getting at earlier. I found that people tended to avoid Gravity since using it seemed like it had a negative connotation.

I probably just picked a bad word earlier. It wasn't exactly an "unspoken agreement" not to use Gravity F230, It was more how people avoided it because using it was frowned upon.

Well, you're also using the word "Gravity," rather than specifying that you're talking about the F230CF/GCF variants (I just figured out you were, actually).

I definitely have a problem with the F230 variants. I just don't have any problem with the conventional Attack/Stamina types.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |