IMPORTANT: New formats and rules for all WBO Beyblade tournaments


Bey Brad
Thanks Ingulit! Worth noting that only Burst has point-based finishes, in response to its unique gameplay mechanics and the current state of the Burst metagame. We definitely agonized a lot over it, so I wouldn't call it arbitrary Wink (Don't worry, I get what you mean!)
Cake
(Dec. 22, 2016  12:39 AM)Ingulit Wrote: Points

I was initially shocked by the point system since it is a substantial arbitrary buff to attack Beyblades, but upon reflection I realized it might actually be pretty cool since it provides more incentive toward playing riskier Beyblades.

I am slightly concerned about how much longer it will make Stamina/Defense vs. Stamina/Defense matches in theory (especially spin steal matches), but I will withhold final judgement on that until I get the chance to see it in practice.

I really like that the KO bonus isn't applied to self-KOs.

Attack isn't in a great place in the Burst meta, so in Burst it definitely could use the buff. For other formats, it's unnecessary.


(Dec. 22, 2016  12:39 AM)Ingulit Wrote: Counterpicks

The thing I'm most concerned about is the counterpicking system (loser gets to see the winner's choice). I have not yet seen the discussion behind that choice so I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but that's a significant benefit for the loser. Considering the rock/paper/scissors component of a lot of Beyblade types, I'm worried that in a match between experienced players the loser should always be able to pick a relatively hard counter and win.

What I'm most worried about is that the counterpick system will cause a lot of matches to go back and forth like so:

  1. Player A wins
  2. Player B counterpicks, Player B wins
  3. Player A counterpicks, Player A wins
  4. Player B counterpicks, Player B wins
  5. etc.
If you don't take into account the bonus points for KOs, this back-and-forth will always result in the player who wins the first round winning the set.

This is another thing I'm sure I need to see in person since it's such a massive change, but I do have some reservations.

The counterpicking system has concerned me for the same reasons you've listed; the topic has been discussed extensively in these threads:

Deck Rotation System Discussion
Experimental Format Discussion

The idea behind giving the loser such a substantial advantage is that it allows for a "balanced" game with some strategic play after the first (blind pick) round. It will be difficult for the winner of one round to continue to win the next round, but they do maintain some initiative, since they get to pick first (in turn driving the opponent's counterpick, allowing you to take advantage of the weak points in their deck or skills). In an "ideal" game like you've described, the loser and winner of the first round will alternate wins and losses following the first round, which does put some substantial pressure to pick correctly on the first round, since recovering from a first-round loss requires two upset wins.

I'd definitely recommend reading through the threads I linked, though prepare for a LOT of reading, haha.
Wombat
(Dec. 02, 2016  5:28 AM)Kei Wrote: Scoring
Matches are to 5 points. Out-spins are worth 1 point; knock-outs and bursts (for Burst Format only) are worth 2 points. If your Beyblade exits the stadium without making contact with the opposing Beyblade they’ll receive 1 point.

(Dec. 22, 2016  12:55 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: Thanks Ingulit! Worth noting that only Burst has point-based finishes, in response to its unique gameplay mechanics and the current state of the Burst metagame. We definitely agonized a lot over it, so I wouldn't call it arbitrary Wink (Don't worry, I get what you mean!)

If the point-based finishes are only for Burst, I would suggest rewording the rules a bit to make that a bit clearer (I also thought the 2 point KOs applied to MFB as well). Maybe something like:

"Matches are to 5 points. In Burst Format, Out-spins are worth 1 point, and both knock-outs and bursts are worth 2 points. In MFB Formats, Out-spins and knock-outs are worth 1 point each. If your Beyblade exits the stadium without making contact with the opposing Beyblade your opponent receives 1 point."

And maybe add something as well to clarify that this scoring system is only to be used for Deck Rotation Format in the finals.
Kei
I’d like to say that in terms of Deck Format under our new rules, it played out quite well at our first official ranked event to use them in Toronto last weekend. Even though I was on the losing end, I especially appreciated the replay rule; it’s hard to feel cheated if you lose after choosing to replay a round you think you should win several times. Knowing the opponent’s deck means you’re constantly thinking about that information during each round and how that will affect your and your opponent’s choices in subsequent rounds. I really feel like even after the first round when one player earns an advantage, both players still have an equal opportunity to win if they’ve constructed their deck well and can execute not only their launch technique with each combo, but their strategic plan upon viewing their opponent’s deck. At the same time, it’s been mentioned somewhere before, but another big part of Deck Format is taking advantage of mistakes. I’ve played a lot of Deck Format battles over the past few months and I can say that the number of “imperfect” matches is quite high, if not the norm. Something you’re not expecting happens more often than you might think. And that changes the complexion of a Deck Format battle entirely.

(Dec. 21, 2016  6:35 AM)Wombat Wrote: In addition to what Cake said, I actually think it would be for the best if we did away with the "no repeated parts" rule in all MFB formats (if not entirely). The reasoning behind this is that the uses for certain parts in MFB (mostly Limited) is a lot more broad than it is in Burst - in Limited you can have Earth 90RSF and Earth 230D, or in Standard Dragooon B:D and Dragooon BD145RF, both of which are very different combos that happen to use the same part. There's a lot of other examples as well. And along with technically banning Synchroms, this rule also makes shuffling around Metal Faces annoying - almost all Limited combos require a Metal Face of some sort, forcing you to choose between which combo needs the MF-H the most. After trying to create a few Limited Decks myself I've found that it actually hampers a player's ability to construct a cohesive deck and restricts the diversity of the combos within the Deck (as well as the diversity of the Decks themselves).

As for Burst, each part generally only works in a handful of combos that have similar functions (the only exception I can think of atm is Valkyrie with things like VAY and VTX), so it's not as important that the rule be removed there. I understand why this rule was put in place - to prevent people from spamming "safe" combos - but any half-decent Deck is going to have at least one reliable answer to the respective centralizing "safe" combo of the format. In all honesty a Deck with repeated parts is somewhat easier to defeat due to the combos with repeat parts usually sharing the same weaknesses (at least in Burst, though this is occasionally the case in MFB too).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we agree to get rid of the rule somewhere in the discussion thread as well? I know I mentioned removing it, and then no one really paid attention to it for a while until Brad brought it back up (with more or less the same argument that I used in the paragraph right above this one), and everyone agreed (or at least a few people did, and no one disagreed)?


I did update the rulebooks the other day to clarify that repeated parts in Synchrom are OK. However, your point about the uses for different parts in MFB being more broad than it is in Burst is true. That being said, I do think the limitations is part of what makes it so exciting for all formats. It forces players to be creative, which I think is something that is fair to ask of players who are skilled enough to make it to the finals of a tournament. During the finals of the Toronto event last week, I actually wanted to use both Deathscyther Revolve and Wyvern Revolve in my deck, but remembered I couldn’t and had to think more critically about the situation (and I ultimately failed because I didn’t prepare for this well enough). Your point about a deck with repeated parts being easier to defeat might be true on some levels, but in Burst at least I feel like many players would pick something like WHR over WAC in their deck because WHR would be “good enough” defensively for their purposes while still allowing for the opportunity to OS other things if necessary. I worry that allowing for repeated parts would ultimately discourage creativity, even if philosophically players might be putting themselves at a disadvantage by repeating parts.

Regarding the rule of no repeated parts, I also posted this in the Experimental Format thread a couple months ago (to which you actually agreed with me “100%”):

Kei Wrote:I like this rule on a philosophical level more than anything; even if the difference only is between using 2 Heavy Disks or 1 Heavy and 1 Gravity, I still see it as a positive because there is differences between each Disk even if they are not obvious that may manifest themselves in the BeyBattle and a players choice of where to use a particular part knowing that they can only using it once.

The main argument for abolishing this rule is that it would allow for a wider audience to participate in the format. If running more than one of each part is legal, players who don't haven three Beyblades could technically participate with just one Beyblade. Not that this would be recommended, though since they'd probably lose every battle ... But I'm sure most players would have a handful of Beyblades at least anyways. The question would just be whether they have three complete Beyblades with all different parts; if they didn't, removing this rule would make it easier for them to play with what they have.

I still stand strongly behind my opinion on this rule for Burst Format at the moment. The idea of being forced to think critically about where X part is best used is a great test of knowledge and weighing of pros and cons for top players in my opinion. In other formats I would consider lifting the rule (particularly for HMS/Plastics right now due to the money issue Kai-V mentioned), but would like to see some real events played with them first and gather feedback from players who participate in them. As Brad has said many times; if something we do sucks, we’ll change it.

(Dec. 21, 2016  5:29 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: Yes, deck format takes longer than just using one Beyblade; however, rematches to the finals will be greatly diminished and eliminated in most cases, and I think there is a lot that can be done to reduce downtime at tournaments and keep them moving swiftly, which I hope to post more about soon :D

Worth nothing that we did end up having a three-way tiebreak for the second finals spot in each group at the Toronto event last week haha. That said, the event was with 13 participants and one group had a rather wide margin between first place in the group and last place (6-0 vs. 0-6 and the tied participants were 4-2) ... so it might have been tough to avoid.

That being said, we will at least diminish them for sure with the TB column in Challonge coming into play now. Tiebreaks will also be very infrequent (if not basically impossible?) in Swiss Format events under the new rules due to the way the Bucholz system works too.

And everyone was very happy to not have their tiebreak battles count for BP!

(Dec. 22, 2016  12:39 AM)Ingulit Wrote: I was initially shocked by the point system since it is a substantial arbitrary buff to attack Beyblades, but upon reflection I realized it might actually be pretty cool since it provides more incentive toward playing riskier Beyblades.

Yeah, this is exactly it. With the amount of points necessary to win, incentivizing attack types this way ensures that they remain a competitively viable (and I would say even critical) part of a winning deck. Having two point KOs and Bursts also means that there is always a chance for a match to take a dramatic swing in one direction or another (losing after taking a 4-0 lead is uncommon, but not unheard of! Happened to me last week lol).

(Dec. 22, 2016  12:39 AM)Ingulit Wrote: If you don't take into account the bonus points for KOs, this back-and-forth will always result in the player who wins the first round winning the set.

Yeah, the thing with is is like I was mentioning earlier: even experienced players make mistakes, which changes how a match plays out significantly. It's often not as simple as winning the first round and then going back-and-forth until you ultimately win.

(Dec. 22, 2016  12:55 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: Thanks Ingulit! Worth noting that only Burst has point-based finishes, in response to its unique gameplay mechanics and the current state of the Burst metagame. We definitely agonized a lot over it, so I wouldn't call it arbitrary ;) (Don't worry, I get what you mean!)

You know, my intention was actually that the two-point KOs apply to all formats (although re-reading what I/we wrote now I can see how it's confusing). The main reason was because I felt like maintaining the ability of having a way to jump ahead of your opponent by scoring not one, but two points was important to the gameplay balance of Deck Format where sometimes winning the first point is important.

However, upon reflection I do admit that perhaps in certain formats (Limited in particular where Attack is potent) it may be questionable. I just wonder if you guys feel the same way I do at all about how having a two-point play available in Deck Format is important.


(Dec. 22, 2016  2:45 AM)Wombat Wrote: If the point-based finishes are only for Burst, I would suggest rewording the rules a bit to make that a bit clearer (I also thought the 2 point KOs applied to MFB as well). Maybe something like:

"Matches are to 5 points. In Burst Format, Out-spins are worth 1 point, and both knock-outs and bursts are worth 2 points. In MFB Formats, Out-spins and knock-outs are worth 1 point each. If your Beyblade exits the stadium without making contact with the opposing Beyblade your opponent receives 1 point."

And maybe add something as well to clarify that this scoring system is only to be used for Deck Rotation Format in the finals.

Thanks Wombat. We'll clarify this once we've discussed a bit about my above point regarding the application of two point KOs to other formats.
Kei
Continuing from my above post, does anyone have any further thoughts on two-point KOs in other formats for Deck Format?



Deck Format: Launcher Ruling Update
It was recently brought to our attention that the ruling for using multiple launchers in Deck Format needed to be clarified to explicitly allow for players to use multiple launchers in order to allow them to use both right- and left-spin Beyblades in their deck. As a result, we have gone ahead and applied the following updates to the "Deck Building" section of the rules for all formats (MFB, MFL, ZRG, BST, PLA, HMS):

BST, PLA, HMS Rules Wrote:Deck Building
During deck building, you build up to 3 Beyblades with no repeated parts that will make up your deck.

Additionally, you may use one launcher for each spin direction with your deck for the duration of the match. Accessories attached to each launcher may not be removed or reconfigured once the match has begun. Launchers and accessories must be chosen during the deck building phase.

Once you’ve assembled your desired deck and chosen launcher(s), you can declare that your deck is ready. The judge will inspect your deck and launcher(s). Before the match begins, both Bladers will inspect each other’s decks. Then the Beyblade selection phase happens in secret as normal.

MFB, MFL, ZRG Rules Wrote:Deck Building
During deck building, you build up to 3 Beyblades with no repeated parts (Zero-G/Shogun Steel Chrome/Warrior Wheels are exempt from this rule and may be repeated within the same combo) that will make up your deck.

Additionally, you may use one launcher for each spin direction with your deck for the duration of the match. Accessories attached to each launcher may not be removed or reconfigured once the match has begun. Launchers and accessories must be chosen during the deck building phase.

Once you’ve assembled your desired deck and chosen launcher(s), you can declare that your deck is ready. The judge will inspect your deck and launcher(s). Before the match begins, both Bladers will inspect each other’s decks. Then the Beyblade selection phase happens in secret as normal.

BeyLauncher LR & Light Launcher LR Ruling: If you would like to use the BeyLauncher LR or Light Launcher LR, you may use it either as the only launcher for your deck (in which case you may reconfigure it between rounds to change the spin direction), or in a single spin direction in conjunction with another launcher of your choosing. If you choose the latter, you must notify the judge before the match begins which spin direction you are locking yourself into.

Please note the specific ruling for the BeyLauncher LR and Light Launcher LR for the Metal Fight Beyblade, Metal Fight Limited, and Zero-G Formats. We want to allow for players to use these launchers, but a few restrictions needed to be made so that it wasn't possible for players to effectively have three launchers available by using both directions of their LR plus another launcher.

If anyone has any questions or has noticed something we've missed, please feel free to post here!
Kai-V
For what it is worth, TAKARA-TOMY just announced their own deck system:
  • As usual, participants must choose three different Beyblades and determine the order in which they will use them from the beginning.

  • If there is a draw after the three battles, you go back to the selected Beys #1, then #2, etc.

  • You can only use a part once, and they specifically mention the prohibited examples of Dark Deathscyther Heavy Revolve and Odin Gravity Revolve hahahah.

  • They have Beyblades for rent if you do not have enough on your own.

https://beyblade.takaratomy.co.jp/info_d...myPost=526
Kei
Interesting! They had something like this during MFB too, right?

It certainly is an improvement for G1 events over the alternative (Odin and D2 Revolve, and maybe some Chaos), but I personally am not in love with this particular ruleset because of the uncertainty it invites (whether they are revealing their deck or not, they're still guessing for the order of their Beyblades and have no agency from round to round to adjust their strategy), which ties back in to the conversations we were having before about revealing or hiding the deck and how the switching procedures would work. That said, if they're going to use this for the entire tournament it may be better because it's probably quicker, so I can understand that aspect.

(Jan. 13, 2017  3:48 PM)Kai-V Wrote: You can only use a part once, and they specifically mention the prohibited examples of Dark Deathscyther Heavy Revolve and Odin Gravity Revolve hahahah.

LOL amazing
Achi-baba
If someone planned two club formats on the lat days of a month and two more on the first days of the following month, couldn't there be four consecutive Club format events?

Also, I was planning on doing a club format for my club next week, but the members are divided up between the two meeting days so I wanted to organize two events, so if I had an event on Tuesday and Thursday, would that take up the second February event?

How are we supposed to go about proposing Club Format events anyway?

Oh, and how can I get some of those WBO tournament banners that I've been seeing?
Kei
(Jan. 25, 2017  4:11 AM)Achi-baba Wrote: If someone planned two club formats on the lat days of a month and two more on the first days of the following month, couldn't there be four consecutive Club format events?

Also, I was planning on doing a club format for my club next week, but the members are divided up between the two meeting days so I wanted to organize two events, so if I had an event on Tuesday and Thursday, would that take up the second February event?

How are we supposed to go about proposing Club Format events anyway?

Oh, and how can I get some of those WBO tournament banners that I've been seeing?

1. Yes, you're correct. That would mean you couldn't host any for the rest of that new month, though.

2. It would.

3. We might consider allowing this in the future, but you cannot necessarily propose a Club Format event specifically right now. You would propose it as a normal event here. If you get more than seven players, it becomes a regular WBO event with all associated rules. If you get less than eight, it becomes Club Format. We don't want communities to become exclusive; we always want hosts to push to grow their community! Club Format simply offers the opportunity for small communities to get together and have fun in a structured competitive environment, which is absolutely better than not being able to host anything official at all.

4. I assume you mean like the one seen in this photo? We order those for Organizers on a case-by-case basis currently. They are quite expensive, so we have generally only given them out to Organizers planning tournaments at big conventions where there would be plenty of opportunity for exposure for the WBO.