World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade Customizations Metal Fight Customizations

Genbull Genbull 90 WD

Jul. 14, 2014  2:29 PM
 
I am really liking the performance that this combo is getting! I'm happy to see a new, potentially viable LTSC, since I love low-track combos and Stamina types :3

(Jul. 14, 2014  4:23 AM)ƒ¡$h Wrote:
(Jul. 14, 2014  3:11 AM)The Supreme One Wrote: I can test against E230 MB & possibly 230 TB sometime soon.
What do you mean by stay upright when not spinning? Because it's such a low track combo, Genbull Genbull has relatively low recoil & doesn't get off-balance until the end of the match. Once it starts to wobble, it can usually go a little while before touching the stadium floor, but it isn't like a Dragooon BGrin combo which sometimes wobbles but is righted upon making contact with the opposing bey, if that's what you mean.

Hm, so the lower Genbull would touch the stadium floor at zero-spinrate? In that case, does WD provide better winrates against Dragooon spin-equalizers? This is surely an interesting combination, and could be my most used if it gets on the tier list. Always loved LTSC, and now someone's actually testing a synchrom on PD! It's all getting exciting. XD
9999th side note: Has any other chrome wheel combination been tried, such as Killerken, Girago or Reviser as subs on the bottom or top? Most importantly Killerken, and maybe Girago, because they both have grinding ability, and the former having higher Defence and LAD then Genbull (I believe) and the latter having low rotational recoil when not having contact with the opponent.
10000th (jk) side note: It would be good to know whether the extra stability WD provides does not sacrifice any pure stamina that PD may give.
1st (?) side note: If general physics applies, MSF-L should boost the rotational recoil resistance. Comparative testing with that would be great too.

wat

That's not even possible lol, rotational recoil refers to the amount that the Beyblade is slowed down when it hits the opponent. So Flash has super-high rotational recoil due to its super-aggro shape, and Duo has super-low rotational recoil due to its smooth shape, which slides smoothly with little resistance over the opponent.

Also, I'm pretty sure that a MSF-L will, like any other Metal Face, increase rotational recoil. Centralizing the weight distribution will decrease the moment of inertia, which is basically the primary concept behind rotational recoil. However, a heavier object has a higher moment of inertia, so I'm not 100% sure it would be significantly worse - it would probably be fairly close in performance to a standard face.
Jul. 14, 2014  4:49 PM
 
PD hasn't had enough testing and so if you could possibly test on multiple tracks we would be able to see how it fairs with other heights.
Jul. 14, 2014  7:11 PM
 
PD has had a good deal of testing due to Ingulit (though more is always good!), and it is best on tracks between 145 and 170 height. Basically, it's for intermediate heights between those best for WD and those best for D.
Jul. 14, 2014  10:29 PM
 
Genbull Genbull 85WD Vs Duo Cancer 230TB
  1. Duo's Wins: 20/20(100% Win Rate)
    Genbull's Wins:0/20(0% Win Rate)
    Ties:2

If there is anything else you want me to test Genbull Genbull 85WD against let me know.
Jul. 14, 2014  10:33 PM
 
(Jul. 14, 2014  10:29 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote: Genbull Genbull 85WD Vs Duo Cancer 230TB
  1. Duo's Wins: 20/20(100% Win Rate)
    Genbull's Wins:0/20(0% Win Rate)
    Ties:2

If there is anything else you want me to test Genbull Genbull 85WD against let me know.

I myself had that same problem, except only with 230D. I'm sure something taller would have been able to do better.

Sorry about the delay, I'll have the results up by either later tonight or tomorrow morning. ... Possibly a video, too?
Jul. 14, 2014  11:14 PM
 
How did this get those Dragooon results? PD doesn't have any Anti Spin-Stealing I thought.
Jul. 14, 2014  11:38 PM
 
It was probably too low to make significant contact. And who said it didn't have anti-spin-steal properties? There's been no tests that justify that, that I know of.
Jul. 15, 2014  12:11 AM
 
Search up Duo 160PD, there's proof. Also, D doesn't have any.
Jul. 15, 2014  12:17 AM
 
(Jul. 14, 2014  10:29 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote: Genbull Genbull 85WD Vs Duo Cancer 230TB
  1. Duo's Wins: 20/20(100% Win Rate)
    Genbull's Wins:0/20(0% Win Rate)
    Ties:2

If there is anything else you want me to test Genbull Genbull 85WD against let me know.

Very weird. I did test with PD on Genbull and D on Duo, but Genbull was still able to have a slightly winning majority. Could have been a subconscious bias though. Hmmm... might need a higher track.
Jul. 15, 2014  12:17 AM
 
(Jul. 15, 2014  12:11 AM)Ocean Wrote: Also, D doesn't have any.

I actually just finished tests with both Genbull Genbull 85WD, and W2D. They actually show quite a huge potential against Killerken Dragoon SA165EWD. I'm sure PD does, too.

As for D, I'm working on the testings now, and it looks like Killerken Dragoon SA165EWD is able to get better results than the other two.

I'll be working on the EWD tests next! I'll try my best to get everything up tonight, as well.
Jul. 15, 2014  12:20 AM
 
What? Do you actually ever read what your posts say? There was 1 Dragooon test and that was against Reviser Dragooon BD145MF... which is a tornado staller...

This was in response to Ocean.
Jul. 15, 2014  12:25 AM
 
midnight Thanks again for doing so much testing! I seriously appreciate it. I'm doing a bit of work with different track heights right now to see if I can get better results against 230 without diminishing the results against 145/165. Would you mind doing an F230 test while you're at it?

W105 might actually put up better results than 85. More defined wins against Duo Cancer W145 WD & not as badly a loss against 203 TB. The tradeoff is that it doesn't do as well against Killerken Dragooon SA165 EWD. Maybe 100?
Jul. 15, 2014  12:49 AM
 
(Jul. 15, 2014  12:25 AM)The Supreme One Wrote: Would you mind doing an F230 test while you're at it?

I don't have Takara's Orange, though I do have Hasbro's that I cleaned out with water, which is most certainly comparable to the original one. It can also free spin just about as many times as Takara's Orange on CF or GCF when tilted down, as well. Despite that, I'd much rather get these results done on Sunday (when I would have access to Takara's Orange), as they'd probably be more accurate results. Smile

Edit: As I didn't want to add another post to this thread, I thought I'd just edit my post here: Anyways, I'll have the results up tomorrow morning. I really don't have much left to do, haha.
Jul. 15, 2014  1:24 AM
 
Testing:

Killerken Genbull 85WD vs Duo Cancer W145EWD
Duo wins: 5/10 (50% win rate)
Genbull wins: 5/10 (50% win rate)
Ties: 3

Genbull Win Percentage: 50%


Killerken Genbull 85WD vs Duo Cancer SA165EWD
Duo wins: 0/10 (0% win rate)
Genbull wins: 10/10 (100% win rate)
Ties: 1

Genbull Win Percentage: 100%


Killerken Genbull 85WD vs Duo Cancer 230D
Duo wins: 10/10 (100% win rate)
Genbull wins: 0/10 (0% win rate)
Ties: 0

Genbull Win Percentage: 0%

Killerken Genbull 85WD vs Duo Cancer 230TB
Duo wins: 10/10 (100% win rate)
Genbull wins: 0/10 (0% win rate)
Ties: 0

Genbull Win Percentage: 0%

I think this combo will benefit from DF105/W105.
Jul. 15, 2014  2:12 AM
 
Wait... you used Killerken instead of Genbull though, right? I definitely appreciate the tests, but am taking them with a grain of salt right now since a big part of the combo wasn't the same.
Jul. 15, 2014  2:25 AM
 
Yeah I did. I don't think Genbull has much more stamina than Genbull though. And Killerken has about the same recoil amount as Genbull too.

I understand though.
Jul. 15, 2014  5:16 PM
 
I just finalized the results earlier this morning.

Anyways, I'll explain to you all what I decided to do: I decided to do testings with four different tips, and compare them to TSO's PD results in the OP. Those tips consisted of W2D, WD, D, and on top of that, EWD. Then judging by the results I got using the four different tips, it would determine which tip would be the best on this setup. Lets begin!:

Genbull Genbull 85W2D Testings: (Click to View)
Genbull Genbull 85WD Testings: (Click to View)
Genbull Genbull 85D Testings: (Click to View)
Genbull Genbull 85EWD Testings: (Click to View)

After seeing all of those testing results, I think it's quite clear that EWD did the best on this setup. In an order from least to greatest result wise it should look like something along the lines of this: EWD > WD > W2D > D.

The low track problem: LTSC's like this are threatened by taller variations, like Duo_230D, because of it's low height. When becoming very off-balanced at the end of the battle, the LTSC doesn't have too much time to wobble throughout its final few spins, because of it lacking in height. I'll get results up using a taller track in around an hour, or two.

I really hope these tests are valuable, TSO. Smile
Jul. 15, 2014  6:51 PM
 
(Jul. 15, 2014  5:16 PM)~Midnight~ Wrote: I just finalized the results earlier this morning.

Anyways, I'll explain to you all what I decided to do: I decided to do testings with four different tips, and compare them to TSO's PD results in the OP. Those tips consisted of W2D, WD, D, and on top of that, EWD. Then judging by the results I got using the four different tips, it would determine which tip would be the best on this setup. Lets begin!:

Genbull Genbull 85W2D Testings: (Click to View)
Genbull Genbull 85WD Testings: (Click to View)
Genbull Genbull 85D Testings: (Click to View)
Genbull Genbull 85EWD Testings: (Click to View)

After seeing all of those testing results, I think it's quite clear that EWD did the best on this setup. In an order from least to greatest result wise it should look like something along the lines of this: D > W2D > WD > EWD.

The low track problem: LTSC's like this are threatened by taller variations, like Duo_230D, because of it's low height. When becoming very off-balanced at the end of the battle, the LTSC doesn't have too much time to wobble throughout its final few spins, because of it lacking in height. I'll get results up using a taller track in around an hour, or two.

I really hope these tests are valuable, TSO. Smile
Wow, this is amazing! Really in-depth Grin I'm pretty surprised that EWD did better than WD, but I haven't done any testing with EWD on Genbull Genbull 85 yet, myself. Let's keep testing with EWD & while keeping the idea of a Genbull Genbull LTSC, adjusting the height to 90 or 100 (no higher) might be a good idea. I'll put these results in the OP right now!
Jul. 15, 2014  7:12 PM
 
(Jul. 15, 2014  6:51 PM)The Supreme One Wrote: Wow, this is amazing! Really in-depth Grin I'm pretty surprised that EWD did better than WD, but I haven't done any testing with EWD on Genbull Genbull 85 yet, myself. Let's keep testing with EWD & while keeping the idea of a Genbull Genbull LTSC, adjusting the height to 90 or 100 (no higher) might be a good idea. I'll put these results in the OP right now!

Stating that Midnight made them would be real nice, haha.

I'll get the results up in a couple minutes, too!
Jul. 15, 2014  7:18 PM
 
(Jul. 15, 2014  7:12 PM)~Midnight~ Wrote:
(Jul. 15, 2014  6:51 PM)The Supreme One Wrote: Wow, this is amazing! Really in-depth Grin I'm pretty surprised that EWD did better than WD, but I haven't done any testing with EWD on Genbull Genbull 85 yet, myself. Let's keep testing with EWD & while keeping the idea of a Genbull Genbull LTSC, adjusting the height to 90 or 100 (no higher) might be a good idea. I'll put these results in the OP right now!

Stating that Midnight made them would be real nice, haha.

I'll get the results up in a couple minutes, too!
Oh yeah, of course! I was just putting them in separate categories so I could add my own tests later, but I'll edit that in a sec!
I'll have some track tests up this afternoon, hopefully.
Jul. 15, 2014  7:40 PM
 
This is just a thought in not sure about it, but I don't think you should make a combo thread based on a combo that you don't have official tests for (that you did). I may be wrong since it's just a top change, but I'm just sayin'.
Jul. 15, 2014  7:42 PM
 
(Jul. 15, 2014  7:40 PM)DRAGON KING EX Wrote: This is just a thought in not sure about it, but I don't think you should make a combo thread based on a combo that you don't have official tests for (that you did). I may be wrong since it's just a top change, but I'm just sayin'.

Yeah I have to agree with DKEX, You've already changed two tips because you didn't do the the required testing, and you're still trying out tracks...
Jul. 15, 2014  7:43 PM
 
Kai-V once told me: only the person who done the tests can post the thread.
Jul. 15, 2014  7:58 PM
 
I'm doing tests as I type this lol
I can definitely see your point, though the way I see it, the combo is still fundamentally the same: a Genbull Genbull low track stamina combo. When I posted the thread, I was excited about the combination and didn't stop to think that I could do something to make it different. After seeing posts and suggestions, I started to consider other possibilities. The way I see it, discovering new combinations is a group effort because we can always learn from eachother; I'm certainly not taking credit for coming up with EWD instead of PD, but I am doing a lot of testing to confirm that it's a better option than PD. Multiple tests are required in order to figure out the best set up due to the natural variation in part molds or amount of use, which is why I posted this thread in order to get feedback and results to back up my own.

To be honest, I think Midnight deserves half the credit for this combination due to all the work he's done Smile

Edit: Midnight and I will now be collaborating with this combination, but additional testing is more than welcome and definitely needed! Very excited to see where we can take this.
Jul. 16, 2014  8:02 AM
 
(Jul. 14, 2014  2:29 PM)Cake Wrote: I am really liking the performance that this combo is getting! I'm happy to see a new, potentially viable LTSC, since I love low-track combos and Stamina types :3

(Jul. 14, 2014  4:23 AM)ƒ¡$h Wrote:
(Jul. 14, 2014  3:11 AM)The Supreme One Wrote: I can test against E230 MB & possibly 230 TB sometime soon.
What do you mean by stay upright when not spinning? Because it's such a low track combo, Genbull Genbull has relatively low recoil & doesn't get off-balance until the end of the match. Once it starts to wobble, it can usually go a little while before touching the stadium floor, but it isn't like a Dragooon BGrin combo which sometimes wobbles but is righted upon making contact with the opposing bey, if that's what you mean.

Hm, so the lower Genbull would touch the stadium floor at zero-spinrate? In that case, does WD provide better winrates against Dragooon spin-equalizers? This is surely an interesting combination, and could be my most used if it gets on the tier list. Always loved LTSC, and now someone's actually testing a synchrom on PD! It's all getting exciting. XD
9999th side note: Has any other chrome wheel combination been tried, such as Killerken, Girago or Reviser as subs on the bottom or top? Most importantly Killerken, and maybe Girago, because they both have grinding ability, and the former having higher Defence and LAD then Genbull (I believe) and the latter having low rotational recoil when not having contact with the opponent.
10000th (jk) side note: It would be good to know whether the extra stability WD provides does not sacrifice any pure stamina that PD may give.
1st (?) side note: If general physics applies, MSF-L should boost the rotational recoil resistance. Comparative testing with that would be great too.

wat

That's not even possible lol, rotational recoil refers to the amount that the Beyblade is slowed down when it hits the opponent. So Flash has super-high rotational recoil due to its super-aggro shape, and Duo has super-low rotational recoil due to its smooth shape, which slides smoothly with little resistance over the opponent.

Also, I'm pretty sure that a MSF-L will, like any other Metal Face, increase rotational recoil. Centralizing the weight distribution will decrease the moment of inertia, which is basically the primary concept behind rotational recoil. However, a heavier object has a higher moment of inertia, so I'm not 100% sure it would be significantly worse - it would probably be fairly close in performance to a standard face.

In my best explanation tone:
When you add anything that has the nickname "weight" (actually mass), it increases inertia like you said, because mass is mass, so I don't see why a MSF-L should do worse, as even year 6 physics would tell you. I believe this is what you mean:

Spoiler (Click to View)
So now that we understand inertia is required for minimise rotational recoil, shouldn't we have as much mass (but as "uncentered") as possible without raising the center of gravity too high that "upright time" is reduced, therefore maximizing spin-time? This is why I suggested MSF-L, because at such a low height, the raised center of gravity won't affect spin-time. This is due to the extra spin-time before precession caused by the increased inertia which in turn minimises rotational recoil, and this far outweighs the unwanted early precession that may be caused by a higher center of gravity that would usually reduced spin-time.

Also, I'm not sure if you read TheBlackDragon's blogs, but he did test MF-L on various customs and some benefited. If this custom does, then it would be great evidence that MSF-L does give stamina in more than just Phantom or Duo.

As for Girago, TheBlackDragon said in one of his destablilzer threads that it had low rotational recoil when "helping (for lack of better word)" another chrome wheel, which also happened to be Genbull in one of his threads. This is why I am suggesting it in this combo as well, as to decide whether it benefits from a chrome wheel change.

As for Killerken (although you didn't mention it), I don't know if it assists chrome wheels like Girago did for TheBlackDragon, but it is smoother. Any objections?
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