The WBO has never banned a part from tournament use based partly because it's too hard to find. I don't think they should. Deathscyther and Dark Deathscyther are not the same parts. I don't think they should lumped into together so casually. Deathscyther is not very hard to defeat with Valkyrie.
Deathscyther AND Dark Deathscyther banned in Japan!
This is something I posted in another thread (about the banning of Deathscyther), and I feel like it is very applicable here;
Some points in there can change since it was written before the release of the God series Beys, but it stands true for the most part because the meta has barely changed. This really says something when we still see these parts having such a high rate of success after all the Dual Layers have been released, plus more.
TAKARA TOMY clearly wants these parts out of the meta, and tournament results here within the WBO and in tournaments in Japan are massive indicators.
It is no secret that DeathScyther wears, but with how increasingly rare it is becoming since they have purposefully stopped production on it, it puts competitive players in a constant spending spree to keep having such a viable part. While @[Ultra] mentioned the difficulty of it, the wear this has makes it necessary to buy new ones.
Dark DeathScyther without DeathScyther in the meta will make it a bit harder to counter, since DeathScyther was arguably the most effective counter to it. While a well balance Odin could beat it, I still think Dark DeathScyther could beat it because it can destabilize the opponent, and not to mention that the D2 user would be able to launch at full strength, which is much risky for the Odin user. It's gotta go.
Spoiler (Click to View)
TAKARA TOMY clearly wants these parts out of the meta, and tournament results here within the WBO and in tournaments in Japan are massive indicators.
It is no secret that DeathScyther wears, but with how increasingly rare it is becoming since they have purposefully stopped production on it, it puts competitive players in a constant spending spree to keep having such a viable part. While @[Ultra] mentioned the difficulty of it, the wear this has makes it necessary to buy new ones.
Dark DeathScyther without DeathScyther in the meta will make it a bit harder to counter, since DeathScyther was arguably the most effective counter to it. While a well balance Odin could beat it, I still think Dark DeathScyther could beat it because it can destabilize the opponent, and not to mention that the D2 user would be able to launch at full strength, which is much risky for the Odin user. It's gotta go.
(Apr. 17, 2017 8:50 PM)Ultra Wrote: The WBO has never banned a part from tournament use based partly because it's too hard to find. I don't think they should. Deathscyther and Dark Deathscyther are not the same parts. I don't think they should lumped into together so casually. Deathscyther is not very hard to defeat with Valkyrie.
Of course they aren't the same parts, and they aren't being lumped together casually at all. The main reason they're being discussed together is because they are both banned by TT. If any other Layer were on the list, we'd be discussing that as well.
Valkyrie has the same natural ban effect that Deathscyther has; it's not in print (outside of the purple event one recently), so it won't be as readily obtainable in time. I do agree that it's a viable counter though, and my go-to choice if I can predict it.
(Apr. 17, 2017 10:35 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: Of course they aren't the same parts, and they aren't being lumped together casually at all. The main reason they're being discussed together is because they are both banned by TT. If any other Layer were on the list, we'd be discussing that as well.
Valkyrie has the same natural ban effect that Deathscyther has; it's not in print (outside of the purple event one recently), so it won't be as readily obtainable in time. I do agree that it's a viable counter though, and my go-to choice if I can predict it.
I feel like they have to be discussed together. I'd bet all my pennies that you couldn't go even half a page on the winning combos thread without seeing a combo with at least one of these layers. If you ban Deathscyther, Dark Deathscyther instantly becomes the best layer in the game, since in my experience Deathscyther is the only reliable counter to Dark Deathscyther. As Mana said over time Deathscyther will be phased out of the meta if it's not banned. But prior to that if the meta continues as it is now it'll end up in "who has the most mint Deathscythers" and newer players will really sturggle.
I understand some people still find the game fun with both these layers unbanned but if people want a more diverse meta and a game where newer players can be equally as competitive as more experienced players then it's in their best interests to advocate at least the ban of Deathscyther. But as Cadney has said if Deathscyther goes Dark Deathscyther has to go as well, otherwise it becomes an even safer layer to use.
Just looking at the report Kei posted yesterday for a tournament that happened last month, almost a year after Dark Deathscyther's release and beginning of dominance already, anybody should be able to understand that the metagame is not healthy at all:
This is what a good metagame looks like, to anyone? Really?
Quote:Winning Combinations
1st: JesseObre
Dark Deathscyther Gravity Defense
Deathscyther Heavy Defense
2nd: Naru Blader
Dark Deathscyther Gravity Defense
Deathscyther Heavy Revolve
Deathscyther 2 Cross Revolve
Lost Longinus 4 Vortex Hold (Deck Format Finals Only)
Lost Longinus Heavy Hold (Deck Format Finals Only)
3rd: 1234beyblade
Valkyrie 4 Vortex Accel (Deck Format Finals Only)
Deathscyther 2 Cross Revolve
Dark Deathscyther 6 Glaive Defense
This is what a good metagame looks like, to anyone? Really?
So, I finally conducted a test for Spriggan Knuckle Xtreme as someone said it was a counter to Dark Deathsycther
Equipment
Long winder, B-33 Beystadium
SKX and D2GR
Out of 20 battles
SKX:1 BF, 6 KO
D2GR:8 OS, 4 BF, 1 KO
SKX win percentage: 35%
D2GR win percentage: 65%
Spriggan has quite a lot of knockout power but some recoil along with it. Usually, whenever SKX got a KO it was on its last click while D2GR would usually have clicked once. Almost all battles had SKX take a click from D2GR and when D2 got a OS, SKX was usually on its last tooth. SKX provided with good consistent hits that caught D2 off guard when it SKX made fast attacks without faltering, thus the KOs.
SKX is in not really a counter to D2 but as a last ditch effort, it might work.
Equipment
Long winder, B-33 Beystadium
SKX and D2GR
Out of 20 battles
SKX:1 BF, 6 KO
D2GR:8 OS, 4 BF, 1 KO
SKX win percentage: 35%
D2GR win percentage: 65%
Spriggan has quite a lot of knockout power but some recoil along with it. Usually, whenever SKX got a KO it was on its last click while D2GR would usually have clicked once. Almost all battles had SKX take a click from D2GR and when D2 got a OS, SKX was usually on its last tooth. SKX provided with good consistent hits that caught D2 off guard when it SKX made fast attacks without faltering, thus the KOs.
SKX is in not really a counter to D2 but as a last ditch effort, it might work.
(Apr. 17, 2017 11:11 PM)Kai-V Wrote: This is what a good metagame looks like, to anyone? Really?
Judging by the results from the tournament winning combos thread from March, I'd say yes. Roktavor had made its way up the ladder, and we can see the new god layers appearing as well. Based on this result, I think that D2 will lose its dominant position due to the sudden influx of god layers and Hasbro variants.
(Apr. 17, 2017 11:11 PM)Kai-V Wrote: Just looking at the report Kei posted yesterday for a tournament that happened last month, almost a year after Dark Deathscyther's release and beginning of dominance already, anybody should be able to understand that the metagame is not healthy at all:
This is what a good metagame looks like, to anyone? Really?
This is kinda on the lines of why I was thinking it deserves it's ban. People would just end up getting dependant on it and u will go to tournaments where everyone got the same thing. It would get boring there's no point of facing the same bey at every step up. Tournaments need variation, it's why the formats are there I guess.
Wow sorry for being kind of late to the party guys, I've kinda been in crunch mode for like the past month due to schoolwork and whatnot. Now that I've finally got some time to post and not just lurk I figured I should weigh in on this.
Short answer: I am ok with seeing D2 banned - while it is a good Layer, I've never found it to be the defensive monster everyone else makes it out to be, but I seem to be the outlier in this case. However, I disagree with banning Deathscyther because of the reasoning Kei posted when this thread was originally posted (or maybe it was in Thunder Dome's thread): it's a perfectly flawed Layer. While it does have the best Stamina in the game, it is incredibly weak to both forms of Attack, most notably the one that takes "no skill" to use. I actually think this conveniently timed response by Cake sums up the Deathscyther/D2 relationship pretty well.
Long Answer: There's no doubt that D2 is a part that is overused in tournaments and that many players struggle to defeat, but I think a lot of the problems the community has been having with D2 are rooted in this weird new way that they're viewing the game - focusing only on the Layer of the Beyblade. (Bear with me here, this is an underlying issue that I find super prevalent, but kinda difficult to explain) This has created a scenario where players relegate each Layer to one specific role as a counter to another Layer, when in reality that's just not how Beyblade works, nor how it's ever worked. Everyone is so focused on finding the Layer that's a counter to D2 that they aren't thinking that there might be other ways to defeat it. I could list all of the offensive Layers which can technically be considered counters to D2: Valkyrie, V2, Xcalibur, Minoboros, B2, Z2, Driger, I2, and L2, but I won't do it like that, because it's not that simple.
D2 is a Destabilizer, that performs exceptionally well against Revolve combos because it can make them precess early in the match, causing them to lose Stamina quickly especially with Revolve's larger surface area. A way around this besides "use a Layer with more Stamina" is to use a ball-shaped tip because ball-shaped tips are not as vulnerable to destabilization as D-series (Survive shaped?) tips - why do you think there was such a shift back to DHD, which was originally seen as inferior to DHR, following the rise of D2 in the meta? Another way to beat a destabilizer like D2 is to avoid contact with it so it can't destabilize you - I've found Tornado Stallers like DSA and CSa to be effective at this. And while D2 is one of the more formidable defensive Layers in the game due to its round shape and strong teeth, its contact points are facing the aggressive direction (for right vs right spin matches at least), making it more susceptible to being bursted or KOed than something like Neptune or Odin, and the fact that it is actually one of the lightest Layers also doesn't help it much on either of those fronts.
As for normal Deathscyther, I still remain opposed to banning it from a gameplay perspective, though as people have pointed out, there are a finite amount of Deathscythers now and they will eventually ban themselves. Going back to what I said earlier, Deathscyther is most likely the best Stamina Layer in the whole game (aside from Chaos), but also has an Achilles heel that is easy to exploit - because of its shape, it is very vulnerable to not only KOs, but more importantly Bursts. The Burst mechanic is what makes Deathscyther different from previous Stamina parts in that the opponent does not necessarily need as high a level of skill, technique, or combo specialization to defeat Deathscyther. Because of this, I don't feel safe using Deathscyther in tournaments unless it's on a Staller - and even then I've had my Deathscyther Spread Accel late-game bursted by something as unaggressive as geetster99's Odin Heavy Defense.
I also don't think that the issue of hoarding Deathscythers will present as big of an obstacle to new players as people seem to think - even if it cannot be defeated in terms of Stamina, there are plenty of other ways around it that involve KOing or bursting it (which are also more incentivized in Deck Format might I add). And before anyone argues that "the only viable counter to Deathscyther is Valkyrie, which also wears quickly and will become extinct in the same way" I would like to say that's absolutely not true. Many of the Layers I mentioned above as "counters" to D2 will also get the job done, with some of the more burst-oriented ones like Driger or I2 not even needing the user to know the Sliding Shoot. Even if you disagree with the viability of some of those other Layers, there's still Valtyrek, which doesn't wear and performs nearly identically to its Japanese counterpart. There's also the psychological factor of these experienced players choosing when to use their limited resource of Deathscyther - they will probably be more conservative with how and when they choose to play it, rather than risking wearing down the teeth in a fight against lil Jimmy's stock Hasbro R2.
Short answer: I am ok with seeing D2 banned - while it is a good Layer, I've never found it to be the defensive monster everyone else makes it out to be, but I seem to be the outlier in this case. However, I disagree with banning Deathscyther because of the reasoning Kei posted when this thread was originally posted (or maybe it was in Thunder Dome's thread): it's a perfectly flawed Layer. While it does have the best Stamina in the game, it is incredibly weak to both forms of Attack, most notably the one that takes "no skill" to use. I actually think this conveniently timed response by Cake sums up the Deathscyther/D2 relationship pretty well.
Long Answer: There's no doubt that D2 is a part that is overused in tournaments and that many players struggle to defeat, but I think a lot of the problems the community has been having with D2 are rooted in this weird new way that they're viewing the game - focusing only on the Layer of the Beyblade. (Bear with me here, this is an underlying issue that I find super prevalent, but kinda difficult to explain) This has created a scenario where players relegate each Layer to one specific role as a counter to another Layer, when in reality that's just not how Beyblade works, nor how it's ever worked. Everyone is so focused on finding the Layer that's a counter to D2 that they aren't thinking that there might be other ways to defeat it. I could list all of the offensive Layers which can technically be considered counters to D2: Valkyrie, V2, Xcalibur, Minoboros, B2, Z2, Driger, I2, and L2, but I won't do it like that, because it's not that simple.
D2 is a Destabilizer, that performs exceptionally well against Revolve combos because it can make them precess early in the match, causing them to lose Stamina quickly especially with Revolve's larger surface area. A way around this besides "use a Layer with more Stamina" is to use a ball-shaped tip because ball-shaped tips are not as vulnerable to destabilization as D-series (Survive shaped?) tips - why do you think there was such a shift back to DHD, which was originally seen as inferior to DHR, following the rise of D2 in the meta? Another way to beat a destabilizer like D2 is to avoid contact with it so it can't destabilize you - I've found Tornado Stallers like DSA and CSa to be effective at this. And while D2 is one of the more formidable defensive Layers in the game due to its round shape and strong teeth, its contact points are facing the aggressive direction (for right vs right spin matches at least), making it more susceptible to being bursted or KOed than something like Neptune or Odin, and the fact that it is actually one of the lightest Layers also doesn't help it much on either of those fronts.
As for normal Deathscyther, I still remain opposed to banning it from a gameplay perspective, though as people have pointed out, there are a finite amount of Deathscythers now and they will eventually ban themselves. Going back to what I said earlier, Deathscyther is most likely the best Stamina Layer in the whole game (aside from Chaos), but also has an Achilles heel that is easy to exploit - because of its shape, it is very vulnerable to not only KOs, but more importantly Bursts. The Burst mechanic is what makes Deathscyther different from previous Stamina parts in that the opponent does not necessarily need as high a level of skill, technique, or combo specialization to defeat Deathscyther. Because of this, I don't feel safe using Deathscyther in tournaments unless it's on a Staller - and even then I've had my Deathscyther Spread Accel late-game bursted by something as unaggressive as geetster99's Odin Heavy Defense.
I also don't think that the issue of hoarding Deathscythers will present as big of an obstacle to new players as people seem to think - even if it cannot be defeated in terms of Stamina, there are plenty of other ways around it that involve KOing or bursting it (which are also more incentivized in Deck Format might I add). And before anyone argues that "the only viable counter to Deathscyther is Valkyrie, which also wears quickly and will become extinct in the same way" I would like to say that's absolutely not true. Many of the Layers I mentioned above as "counters" to D2 will also get the job done, with some of the more burst-oriented ones like Driger or I2 not even needing the user to know the Sliding Shoot. Even if you disagree with the viability of some of those other Layers, there's still Valtyrek, which doesn't wear and performs nearly identically to its Japanese counterpart. There's also the psychological factor of these experienced players choosing when to use their limited resource of Deathscyther - they will probably be more conservative with how and when they choose to play it, rather than risking wearing down the teeth in a fight against lil Jimmy's stock Hasbro R2.
![[Image: izt9hKq.png]](https://i.imgur.com/izt9hKq.png)
First of all, I'm really glad to see you back friend.
I agree in a way with this. Testing and "rating" of entire combo is kinda alot focused on Layers then other parts. But that's kinda understandable due to it's like Fusion wheel of bey or main contact point, but I think other parts should have little more attention as well. Like there are MANY diks untested and with information on its performance anywhere. Driver too we mostly focus on "thing that can OS revolve or compared to Xtreme driver".
Yup, maybe like if D2 can beat Odin Heavy Defence, it doesn't means it will beat all type of its customisation. Like you said possibly Tornado Staller can beat it so maybe OKZ can do well against it? As far as I remember, Kei said somewhere that he was able to OS D2 with Minoboros K.Z. so Odin should do even better due to its superior stamina + Odin acts as a
Quote:Long Answer: There's no doubt that D2 is a part that is overused in tournaments and that many players struggle to defeat, but I think a lot of the problems the community has been having with D2 are rooted in this weird new way that they're viewing the game - focusing only on the Layer of the Beyblade.
I agree in a way with this. Testing and "rating" of entire combo is kinda alot focused on Layers then other parts. But that's kinda understandable due to it's like Fusion wheel of bey or main contact point, but I think other parts should have little more attention as well. Like there are MANY diks untested and with information on its performance anywhere. Driver too we mostly focus on "thing that can OS revolve or compared to Xtreme driver".
Quote:This has created a scenario where players relegate each Layer to one specific role as a counter to another Layer, when in reality that's just not how Beyblade works, nor how it's ever worked. Everyone is so focused on finding the Layer that's a counter to D2 that they aren't thinking that there might be other ways to defeat it. I could list all of the offensive Layers which can technically be considered counters to D2: Valkyrie, V2, Xcalibur, Minoboros, B2, Z2, Driger, I2, and L2, but I won't do it like that, because it's not that simple.
Yup, maybe like if D2 can beat Odin Heavy Defence, it doesn't means it will beat all type of its customisation. Like you said possibly Tornado Staller can beat it so maybe OKZ can do well against it? As far as I remember, Kei said somewhere that he was able to OS D2 with Minoboros K.Z. so Odin should do even better due to its superior stamina + Odin acts as a
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Well, I have no clue about the Beyblade burst meta game and I'm not even sure whether I can have a say in this, but anyways I'll just start out my opinion on what should happen. I don't think they should be completely banned from the tournaments, but its usage should be banned in the semifinals and finals and players should be restricted to a certain number of battles they could use these parts during the tournament. For example, they could probably be restricted to two battles per participant, but obviously this will vary from tournament to tournament as the number of participants will be different.Now you might be wondering about why you should consider this option rather than just banning the parts on the whole, considering that it'll be a hassle on noting down how many times each player has used the parts in the tournament. Well, because this option could also bring balance to the game without having to ban the parts.
![[Image: tj5hk.png]](https://gfxf.net/images/2012/10/24/tj5hk.png)
(Apr. 17, 2017 10:35 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: Of course they aren't the same parts, and they aren't being lumped together casually at all. The main reason they're being discussed together is because they are both banned by TT. If any other Layer were on the list, we'd be discussing that as well.
Valkyrie has the same natural ban effect that Deathscyther has; it's not in print (outside of the purple event one recently), so it won't be as readily obtainable in time. I do agree that it's a viable counter though, and my go-to choice if I can predict it.
I meant more members being so set on them both being banned. Deathscyther isn't anywhere near as large a problem as Dark Deathscyther. There's no need to ban them both.
(Apr. 22, 2017 4:59 PM)Ultra Wrote: I meant more members being so set on them both being banned. Deathscyther isn't anywhere near as large a problem as Dark Deathscyther. There's no need to ban them both.
i agree with this. Deathscyther's counters are also plausible to use competitively against other non-deathscyther combos, but most of D2's counters are only good against D2
(Apr. 22, 2017 11:35 PM)Jimmyjazz39 Wrote: i agree with this. Deathscyther's counters are also plausible to use competitively against other non-deathscyther combos, but most of D2's counters are only good against D2
I think this is a really important point. Whilst there may be combos that are good against D2, are they consistent enough to be D2 in multiple battles back to back? Deathscyther can be beaten consistently with certain combos, they are reliable counters. But in the case of D2 the large majority of counters are patchy at best and very situational even in the hands of top ranked players. So I think the case for banning D2 and not Deathscyther is strengthened when you take into account the reliability of the counters to each layer.
(Apr. 22, 2017 1:03 PM)Death! Wrote: Well, I have no clue about the Beyblade burst meta game and I'm not even sure whether I can have a say in this, but anyways I'll just start out my opinion on what should happen. I don't think they should be completely banned from the tournaments, but its usage should be banned in the semifinals and finals and players should be restricted to a certain number of battles they could use these parts during the tournament. For example, they could probably be restricted to two battles per participant, but obviously this will vary from tournament to tournament as the number of participants will be different.Now you might be wondering about why you should consider this option rather than just banning the parts on the whole, considering that it'll be a hassle on noting down how many times each player has used the parts in the tournament. Well, because this option could also bring balance to the game without having to ban the parts.
That's a good idea but like you said it will increase things that host would have to note down and keep track of. That's main reason why WBO don't ban anything partialy or just ban modes (aka Duo in Attack Mode which is not very good in LTD ethier but main reason WBO didn't allowed it because it will evertime requre inspection by judge. WBO wants to keep thing go smoothly at event as much as possible #Anti-Chaos), they want to keep events easy and acessable for all as possible so it will be easy for anyone to host, then events will be hosted in more areas.
SO on to the point. Main reason many wants it to get banned, because it's combination of Defence and Stamina which make it not just hard to OS (as it can destablize everything easily. Esspecally if you have perfect balance mold which is even worse) but also EXTREMELY hard to move around and KO due to it's shape and due to it's very small contact point many layers (most have big contact points which can't hook in those and unlock ) can't recoil with and Burst it making it quite like E230CS combos, except it even Left Spins due to it's round shape (L2 is only left spin now but Drain Fafnir may change it due to it's rubber. Just hope it will have good precessiob). Well combination of such a good defence and stamina + anti-spin-stealing is something I (probably all members who played with it) don't want to be at tournament (if you seen it is in almost all of Winning Combos since it released which proves how good it is. However I don't think thats true with Deathscyther, if you read last few post it's great for stamina and 2nd best after Chaos but it still can bo KOed easily and Burst too (NIB one is harder but I know you will manage). I too have at event against it (2 people used it I think. not super sure) and I bursted it twice very easily against Ashton (then self KOed twice and at last round it took 1 huge hit somehow and made my Xcaliber hit wall and when X hit it second time X bursted. But I think D also self-bursted after few sec) with my XFX (he was using DSD btw)
To me it looks like the general opinion is that D2 should be banned and D shouldn't be banned.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Simply looking at the Winning Combos list tells us so. As Kai-V posted earlier, does it look like a balanced meta to everyone?
TL;DR, The current metagame is broken. Ban D2 and let's begin to fix it.
With the removal of D2, other combos become viable again. I think we will have a resurgence of Odin combos and potentially more interesting combos. In fact, attack may gain more popularity as well.
If anyone feels that Odin and Deathscyther may become too OP, do remember that we have more viable attack combos: L2_H, Valkyrie, V2, (even I2 and Z2 from what I've heard, ahem @[Basedsamuraij]). I feel that banning D2 will bring balance back to the metagame. There may come a time when layers have become better (plz Drain Fafnir and future God Layers) and D2 can be reintroduced into the meta. We must take this first step and see how it goes really.
On a side note, if D2 does get banned, and if this occurs before AN17, I'd like to see what will end up on the Winning Combos list for the Beyblade North events. That may leave an indicator of whether banning D2 was a good or bad choice. I'd urge the committee to make a decision soon.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Simply looking at the Winning Combos list tells us so. As Kai-V posted earlier, does it look like a balanced meta to everyone?
TL;DR, The current metagame is broken. Ban D2 and let's begin to fix it.
With the removal of D2, other combos become viable again. I think we will have a resurgence of Odin combos and potentially more interesting combos. In fact, attack may gain more popularity as well.
If anyone feels that Odin and Deathscyther may become too OP, do remember that we have more viable attack combos: L2_H, Valkyrie, V2, (even I2 and Z2 from what I've heard, ahem @[Basedsamuraij]). I feel that banning D2 will bring balance back to the metagame. There may come a time when layers have become better (plz Drain Fafnir and future God Layers) and D2 can be reintroduced into the meta. We must take this first step and see how it goes really.
On a side note, if D2 does get banned, and if this occurs before AN17, I'd like to see what will end up on the Winning Combos list for the Beyblade North events. That may leave an indicator of whether banning D2 was a good or bad choice. I'd urge the committee to make a decision soon.
Why do we have to ban the layer outright? Why not a complex ban on the most prevalent combos? I feel as if it would be a shame to lose the layer entirely, but that's just me.
(Apr. 26, 2017 11:56 PM)Syphon Wrote: Why do we have to ban the layer outright? Why not a complex ban on the most prevalent combos? I feel as if it would be a shame to lose the layer entirely, but that's just me.
Considering we'd have to ban it on anything that isn't offensive or Edge, that narrows it down quite a bit, but the ban would basically do the same thing but easier. (D2 sucks at attack)
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(Apr. 26, 2017 11:56 PM)Syphon Wrote: Why do we have to ban the layer outright? Why not a complex ban on the most prevalent combos? I feel as if it would be a shame to lose the layer entirely, but that's just me.
WBO want to keep it simple for both hosts and participate to understand rules, that why parts are banned and not Combos and Modes. It's kinda like Basalt of Butst, except it's easier to counter with things with sharp contact points. But it's counters are limited and not something you can relie on and if you see there are only 2 good counters. Deathscyther and Minoboros. Deathscyther is good but it's passive defence can make it lose against Attack and Minoboros is not as good as Valkyrie for against other things. Valkyrie is a Counter as well but wears fast(it's case with Minoboros and Deathscyther too btw)
Same argument as for Odin honestly. Back then, people specifically wanted Odin Heavy Defense specifically banned, allowing Odin to be used in other combinations. If that had been the case, we would have seen OGD, OGR, OHR etc appear shortly after, and the problem really wouldn't have been solved.
It's easier, safer and futureproof to outright ban the Layer. If we banned it on specific parts, the ruling does become overcomplicated and seems futile given D2 would likely not be used on the other combinations.
If you're a TCG player, think of it like a card banlist; a card is added to the banlist because it unbalanced the metagame. They could specifically ban it when used in combination with other cards, but that card could find use in another combination not in the rules and be equally bad in some, while still being tame in others. So it is then removed from being put in any deck until it is errata'd instead. It hurts (years of playing YGO and watching key cards being banned has shed many tears), but it's logical for the lifespan of the game.
Same thing is happening here; it's dominated the metagame for a year, TT accepts there's an issue with its performance and, in order for the metagame to move forward and become diverse again, that part needs to be removed. Not to say it wouldn't come off the banlist in the future, it could well do, but it doesn't look like D2's presence is in the best interest of the community and the metagame at this point in time.
It's easier, safer and futureproof to outright ban the Layer. If we banned it on specific parts, the ruling does become overcomplicated and seems futile given D2 would likely not be used on the other combinations.
If you're a TCG player, think of it like a card banlist; a card is added to the banlist because it unbalanced the metagame. They could specifically ban it when used in combination with other cards, but that card could find use in another combination not in the rules and be equally bad in some, while still being tame in others. So it is then removed from being put in any deck until it is errata'd instead. It hurts (years of playing YGO and watching key cards being banned has shed many tears), but it's logical for the lifespan of the game.
Same thing is happening here; it's dominated the metagame for a year, TT accepts there's an issue with its performance and, in order for the metagame to move forward and become diverse again, that part needs to be removed. Not to say it wouldn't come off the banlist in the future, it could well do, but it doesn't look like D2's presence is in the best interest of the community and the metagame at this point in time.
I think it's a matter of not enough good parts being released more than it is of they're is one good part. If anything, I feel they should've just stuck with one set of universal teeth for every top, instead of changing the teeth with every single top (maybe Odin teeth would've done the trick)
I honestly feel very passionate about how pathetic I find the burst meta game to be.
There is such little level of diversity it's sad, honestly. When I saw the sample of battles without Dark Deathscyther, all I saw in the winner column was a repetition of Valkyrie, Neptune, Wyvern, and occasionally Chaos. Out of all the layers that have been released, there were only four that have been used.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Burst is the single worst series in terms over variability, customizabilty, diversivity, and applicability . Even when you see the list of combos, I only saw one dual layer used. Burst is so poor in making parts genuinely useful that presecessors outclass their successors instead of outclassing or even coexisting with them
Honestly, I feel this has been so much more mis leading than every other series. I mean, you seen this in the past other two generations, but nothing as compared to this one. I mean, think about this. Finding use of dark Deathscyther as a defense and stamina layer makes no actual sense if it was intended for use in attack.
Honestly, I feel takara tomy needs to put much more pride inot this series as compared to the plastics and metals, because I feel burst was just created to make something from a lack of ideas, and not because they wanted to actually take time and think things through.
Sorry for the rant, but I had to put these thoughts out there.
I honestly feel very passionate about how pathetic I find the burst meta game to be.
There is such little level of diversity it's sad, honestly. When I saw the sample of battles without Dark Deathscyther, all I saw in the winner column was a repetition of Valkyrie, Neptune, Wyvern, and occasionally Chaos. Out of all the layers that have been released, there were only four that have been used.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Burst is the single worst series in terms over variability, customizabilty, diversivity, and applicability . Even when you see the list of combos, I only saw one dual layer used. Burst is so poor in making parts genuinely useful that presecessors outclass their successors instead of outclassing or even coexisting with them
Honestly, I feel this has been so much more mis leading than every other series. I mean, you seen this in the past other two generations, but nothing as compared to this one. I mean, think about this. Finding use of dark Deathscyther as a defense and stamina layer makes no actual sense if it was intended for use in attack.
Honestly, I feel takara tomy needs to put much more pride inot this series as compared to the plastics and metals, because I feel burst was just created to make something from a lack of ideas, and not because they wanted to actually take time and think things through.
Sorry for the rant, but I had to put these thoughts out there.
(Apr. 28, 2017 7:46 PM)Sıon Wrote: I think it's a matter of not enough good parts being released more than it is of they're is one good part. If anything, I feel they should've just stuck with one set of universal teeth for every top, instead of changing the teeth with every single top (maybe Odin teeth would've done the trick)
I honestly feel very passionate about how pathetic I find the burst meta game to be.
There is such little level of diversity it's sad, honestly. When I saw the sample of battles without Dark Deathscyther, all I saw in the winner column was a repetition of Valkyrie, Neptune, Wyvern, and occasionally Chaos. Out of all the layers that have been released, there were only four that have been used.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Burst is the single worst series in terms over variability, customizabilty, diversivity, and applicability . Even when you see the list of combos, I only saw one dual layer used. Burst is so poor in making parts genuinely useful that presecessors outclass their successors instead of outclassing or even coexisting with them
Honestly, I feel this has been so much more mis leading than every other series. I mean, you seen this in the past other two generations, but nothing as compared to this one. I mean, think about this. Finding use of dark Deathscyther as a defense and stamina layer makes no actual sense if it was intended for use in attack.
Honestly, I feel takara tomy needs to put much more pride inot this series as compared to the plastics and metals, because I feel burst was just created to make something from a lack of ideas, and not because they wanted to actually take time and think things through.
Sorry for the rant, but I had to put these thoughts out there.
Hopefully the God Series is where Takara Tomy picks up the slack. 1234beyblade's video with the gV layer against D2 and Tornado Wyvern's gimmick give me some hope
(Apr. 28, 2017 7:46 PM)Sıon Wrote: Finding use of dark Deathscyther as a defense and stamina layer makes no actual sense if it was intended for use in attack.It's type by takara is attack. That doesn't actually mean anything though.... Each beyblade's type in burst is fully determined by the driver. Since it has an attack driver it is classed as attack type.
Plus, Vulcan Horuseus was a Defense type, from what I recall, but it was clearly top-tier in Attack instead. This is not new in Beyblade.
In case you missed it, check out my LIVE ACTION REBOOT Toronto Tournament Report, where Deathscyther and Dark Deathscyther were both prominently used.
For reference, these were the winning combinations:
I was undefeated.
Important to note that the "Dual Layers, Dual Fun!" tournament happened less than two weeks after the Dual Layers were released. I was the only person who had them, and that was only because I had literally just got back from my trip to Japan. I sold a bunch to everyone, but obviously with no previous experience testing them, not many people wanted to risk using them in a tournament setting (although LMAO did at least once, as you see in the video). So, I don't think using that video as an example is valid.
With D2 banned, in addition to some God Layers and Hasbro parts, realistically I can see the following Dual Layers being more competitive: L2, V2, Z2, G2, maybe K2 if what you say about is countering L2 is true. But with all of the others, I can't even comment on them because they were so bad against or in comparison to D2 that they became immediately irrelevant in the metagame upon release. With D2 banned, who knows, maybe something like J2 or Q2 could be useful. Nobody knows what the full extent of a D2 ban would be in terms of the effect it would have on the metagame; we just know that without question, things would be opened up to some degree.
In terms of Stamina, it will be a "single layer meta" again, I agree. However, the Layers which will dominate don't wear as quickly as Deathscyther and defensive options like G2 will become more viable if there is an increased usage of Attack. And TT actually recently re-released the Odin Booster (and RBV1, I think?) too, which is significant. No matter what, there will always be a barrier because the metagame is largely based upon importing Japanese products, but what we can do is try to reduce that barrier by banning things like Deathscyther which are actually out of production and wear more quickly than other single Layers.
That being said, I'm pretty much repeating what Cake said here:
The thing here is ... we're talking about an active series with rankings that affects a much larger amount of people than the Plastics Format. There is more riding on our ability to properly balance the Burst Format metagame than there is any potential issues in the Plastics metagame, which as much as I hate to say it, is basically a legacy format at this point due to the level of activity and competition between players at the events which are played.
Yeah, this is the big thing for me: the inconsistency and situational nature of D2 counters, and the availability and quick-wearing nature of Deathscyther. Like I mentioned above, we already present a large enough barrier to the community by basically requiring importing Japanese releases to be successful, so if we can lower that barrier a little bit by banning a part (Deathscyther) which is the best Stamina Layer in the game (this is a bigger issue than if it were the post powerful Attack or Defense type in the game because Stamina is the easiest type to use) and wears quickly, it's a win for everybody involved:
1. New players have a better opportunity to compete with anybody in a Stamina match-up (saying they can just use Attack to counter Deathscyther isn't really valid; I'd rather craft a metagame where all players have a relatively equal opportunity to compete at a high level in any way which they desire. I don't want them to feel forced into using a particular type to overcome an issue like the one which exists with Deathscyther).
2. Experienced players don't have to buy multiple copies of an increasingly rare out-of-production part just to maintain their increasingly meaningless position as top players because of their Deathscyther usage.
In the hands of a good player, a mint Deathscyther is an incredibly formidable opponent. It can outspin anything and depending on the match-up and launching skill of the users involved, can defeat many Attack combinations without much trouble too. Even though there is absolutely counters (which are more or less effective not only on the players involved, but also depending on the condition of the Deathscyther), I don't think it's quite as bad defensively as some of you have made it out to be.
In fact, I took the time to review my battle data and since around December 2015 when I started recording every single battle I play in Toronto at our official WBO events, I discovered that in my battles where Deathscyther was used, Deathscyther won 67% of the time (31/46 times) against offensive opponents (whether I was using Deathscyther or my opponent was) in regular matches (this does not include rounds played in Deck Format Finals). This is massively telling in my opinion. Worth noting that most of these match-ups were against highly competitive Attack types like Valkyrie or Valtryek. I noticed that in a lot of cases when Valkyrie won, it was 3-2 ... so the irrefutable fact of the matter is that Deathscyther is not as weak against all forms of Attack as people might think.
The fact that it even has much of a chance against Attack combos is a problem; in MFB–Limited Format in particular–the chances of you beating an Attack type with a Stamina type are pretty low, all things considered. That's not to say I think banning D2 and Deathscyther will turn Burst Format into an Attack-dominated format like Limited Format all of a sudden, but removing those parts certainly would make Attack more viable because there wouldn't be anything left which has both strong teeth/Defense and Stamina.
We're past the point of waiting and seeing at this point. If we decide to ban Deathscyther, D2, or both, there's nothing saying we can't unban them later. Right now–in this moment–it seems like something has to change. That's all we need to be concerned with.
I still stand behind that assessment of it being a "perfectly flawed Layer" from an objective standpoint, but the bigger issue for me at this point is availability and it's nature of being relatively quickly wearing in comparison to all other Layers (except Valkyrie). Just doesn't sit well with me knowing that I have an advantage over many players because I hoard mint Deathscythers, which locks them out of the ability to compete in a Stamina match because they don't have an old, out-of-production part or they only have one or two of them which have become worn over time. Doesn't seem fair to me.
I definitely understand what you've been saying about this for a while, but you have to also consider than when we're talking about Beyblade, we can't possibly account for all potential situations. When I say something like "Minoboros is a counter to Dark Deathscyther", I can't explain every single time what precisely that means. To me, when discussing Beyblade at a deep level like this, there is a certain amount of prior knowledge and generalization required or else we'd be here all day and night explaining what exact match-ups we're referring to, what launch techniques are necessary, etc.
What "winner column" were you looking at? In addition to the ones you mentioned (although Chaos isn't really competitive, it has placed), things like the following have all been used in winning combinations for WBO events: Xcalibur, Victory Valkyrie, God Valkyrie, Zillion Zeus, Odin, Spriggan, Lost Longinus, Roktavor, Valtryek, Driger S, Gigant Gaia, Dragoon S, Blaze Ragnaruk ... I could keep going. From an objective standpoint, there is a problem with D2 in particular, but I think you're being far too harsh here.
For reference, these were the winning combinations:
(Apr. 23, 2017 2:08 AM)Kei Wrote: Winning Combinations
1st: Kei
Dark Deathscyther Gravity Defense
Deathscyther Heavy Revolve
Deathscyther Heavy Defense
2nd: Mitsu
Dark Deathscyther Gravity Defense
Deathscyther Gravity Revolve
Deathscyther 2 Cross Revolve
Dark Deathscyther 4 Glaive Defense
God Valkyrie Heavy Reboot (Deck Format Finals Only)
God Valkyrie 4 Vortex Reboot (Deck Format Finals Only)
3rd: JesseObre
Deathscyther Heavy Defense
Dark Deathscyther Gravity Defense
Dark Deathscyther Gravity Orbit
I was undefeated.
(Apr. 15, 2017 5:57 PM)Bastillon Wrote: Ever watched the "Dual layer, dual fun" tournament video? Now, how many dual layers do you spot in said video? I got tired of hitting the replay button since I don't see any of them, so I'll just go out on a limb here and say absolutely none. Yeah, the situation is this bad. Without D2, how many dual layers would be in use? L2, the occasional K2, V2, Z2, X2, B2, the very occasional A2, O2... That makes what, eight? But let's be real here, you'd most likely only use two of the above. Without D2, it's pretty much a single layer meta again. Seeing how TT's not producing them anymore, I seriously doubt how newbie-friendly this community really is. Are we seriously going to deny the very last of viable choices available? Or is it just okay for them to wait for new releases while everyone hates waiting for new molds? Is that fair in any way possible?
Important to note that the "Dual Layers, Dual Fun!" tournament happened less than two weeks after the Dual Layers were released. I was the only person who had them, and that was only because I had literally just got back from my trip to Japan. I sold a bunch to everyone, but obviously with no previous experience testing them, not many people wanted to risk using them in a tournament setting (although LMAO did at least once, as you see in the video). So, I don't think using that video as an example is valid.
With D2 banned, in addition to some God Layers and Hasbro parts, realistically I can see the following Dual Layers being more competitive: L2, V2, Z2, G2, maybe K2 if what you say about is countering L2 is true. But with all of the others, I can't even comment on them because they were so bad against or in comparison to D2 that they became immediately irrelevant in the metagame upon release. With D2 banned, who knows, maybe something like J2 or Q2 could be useful. Nobody knows what the full extent of a D2 ban would be in terms of the effect it would have on the metagame; we just know that without question, things would be opened up to some degree.
In terms of Stamina, it will be a "single layer meta" again, I agree. However, the Layers which will dominate don't wear as quickly as Deathscyther and defensive options like G2 will become more viable if there is an increased usage of Attack. And TT actually recently re-released the Odin Booster (and RBV1, I think?) too, which is significant. No matter what, there will always be a barrier because the metagame is largely based upon importing Japanese products, but what we can do is try to reduce that barrier by banning things like Deathscyther which are actually out of production and wear more quickly than other single Layers.
That being said, I'm pretty much repeating what Cake said here:
(Apr. 15, 2017 10:15 PM)Cake Wrote: D2's existence is more hostile to new players than its removal would be. D2's primary counters are also Single Layers, and its presence may be stifling the use of other potentially competitive Dual Layers. Removing D2 means that new players lose one option that's more easily accessible, but it also makes repeated purchases of Deathscyther less necessary (or completely unnecessary if it's also banned). Wyvern and Odin do not suffer much from any wearing issues, so there's no need to buy many duplicates, unlike Deathscyther which does wear out rapidly. Furthermore, without D2 or Deathscyther in play, I expect we would see more attempts to use Xtreme or Variable-based attack, especially those using V2 or Valtryek V2, since D2 is no longer a concern and stationary Attack is no longer necessary to fight mint Deathscyther. Removing D2 and possibly Deathscyther opens up the game for more Dual Layers and Hasbro parts to see use, particularly those that are currently overshadowed by Deathscyther's high Stamina and D2's unique Stamina/Defense mix.
(Apr. 17, 2017 7:18 PM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: No offence but if something is very powerful and must for competetive and is getting harder and harder to obtain, doesn't mean we should ban it. White Gabriel G's Attack Ring, Twin Horn G (Hasbro) is very hard to get too + BEYXTREMELY powerful (quite a bit like D2 of PLA) and it's still isn't banned yet.
The thing here is ... we're talking about an active series with rankings that affects a much larger amount of people than the Plastics Format. There is more riding on our ability to properly balance the Burst Format metagame than there is any potential issues in the Plastics metagame, which as much as I hate to say it, is basically a legacy format at this point due to the level of activity and competition between players at the events which are played.
(Apr. 17, 2017 8:42 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: Dark Deathscyther will eventually have the exact same situation as above throughout the God Layer System's lifetime. Between the two above; I feel like the second point is honestly a more prominent reason to ban than the first point is against the ban; anyone joining the metagame now has to deal with these parts that simply aren't accessible to them, that even Takara-Tomy themselves accept are simply too good/consistent.
Yes, both Deathscyther and Dark Deathscyther have counters. Everything has a counter, that's just how it is. But what about the consistency of the counters? It's all well and good using D/D2 as counters for everything else, but when the main things that can counter these back are inconsistent or situational combinations, there's clearly an issue there.
Yeah, this is the big thing for me: the inconsistency and situational nature of D2 counters, and the availability and quick-wearing nature of Deathscyther. Like I mentioned above, we already present a large enough barrier to the community by basically requiring importing Japanese releases to be successful, so if we can lower that barrier a little bit by banning a part (Deathscyther) which is the best Stamina Layer in the game (this is a bigger issue than if it were the post powerful Attack or Defense type in the game because Stamina is the easiest type to use) and wears quickly, it's a win for everybody involved:
1. New players have a better opportunity to compete with anybody in a Stamina match-up (saying they can just use Attack to counter Deathscyther isn't really valid; I'd rather craft a metagame where all players have a relatively equal opportunity to compete at a high level in any way which they desire. I don't want them to feel forced into using a particular type to overcome an issue like the one which exists with Deathscyther).
2. Experienced players don't have to buy multiple copies of an increasingly rare out-of-production part just to maintain their increasingly meaningless position as top players because of their Deathscyther usage.
In the hands of a good player, a mint Deathscyther is an incredibly formidable opponent. It can outspin anything and depending on the match-up and launching skill of the users involved, can defeat many Attack combinations without much trouble too. Even though there is absolutely counters (which are more or less effective not only on the players involved, but also depending on the condition of the Deathscyther), I don't think it's quite as bad defensively as some of you have made it out to be.
In fact, I took the time to review my battle data and since around December 2015 when I started recording every single battle I play in Toronto at our official WBO events, I discovered that in my battles where Deathscyther was used, Deathscyther won 67% of the time (31/46 times) against offensive opponents (whether I was using Deathscyther or my opponent was) in regular matches (this does not include rounds played in Deck Format Finals). This is massively telling in my opinion. Worth noting that most of these match-ups were against highly competitive Attack types like Valkyrie or Valtryek. I noticed that in a lot of cases when Valkyrie won, it was 3-2 ... so the irrefutable fact of the matter is that Deathscyther is not as weak against all forms of Attack as people might think.
The fact that it even has much of a chance against Attack combos is a problem; in MFB–Limited Format in particular–the chances of you beating an Attack type with a Stamina type are pretty low, all things considered. That's not to say I think banning D2 and Deathscyther will turn Burst Format into an Attack-dominated format like Limited Format all of a sudden, but removing those parts certainly would make Attack more viable because there wouldn't be anything left which has both strong teeth/Defense and Stamina.
(Apr. 18, 2017 4:27 PM)Bastillon Wrote: Judging by the results from the tournament winning combos thread from March, I'd say yes. Roktavor had made its way up the ladder, and we can see the new god layers appearing as well. Based on this result, I think that D2 will lose its dominant position due to the sudden influx of god layers and Hasbro variants.
We're past the point of waiting and seeing at this point. If we decide to ban Deathscyther, D2, or both, there's nothing saying we can't unban them later. Right now–in this moment–it seems like something has to change. That's all we need to be concerned with.
(Apr. 22, 2017 8:50 AM)Wombat Wrote: However, I disagree with banning Deathscyther because of the reasoning Kei posted when this thread was originally posted (or maybe it was in Thunder Dome's thread): it's a perfectly flawed Layer. While it does have the best Stamina in the game, it is incredibly weak to both forms of Attack, most notably the one that takes "no skill" to use.
I still stand behind that assessment of it being a "perfectly flawed Layer" from an objective standpoint, but the bigger issue for me at this point is availability and it's nature of being relatively quickly wearing in comparison to all other Layers (except Valkyrie). Just doesn't sit well with me knowing that I have an advantage over many players because I hoard mint Deathscythers, which locks them out of the ability to compete in a Stamina match because they don't have an old, out-of-production part or they only have one or two of them which have become worn over time. Doesn't seem fair to me.
(Apr. 22, 2017 8:50 AM)Wombat Wrote: Long Answer: There's no doubt that D2 is a part that is overused in tournaments and that many players struggle to defeat, but I think a lot of the problems the community has been having with D2 are rooted in this weird new way that they're viewing the game - focusing only on the Layer of the Beyblade. (Bear with me here, this is an underlying issue that I find super prevalent, but kinda difficult to explain) This has created a scenario where players relegate each Layer to one specific role as a counter to another Layer, when in reality that's just not how Beyblade works, nor how it's ever worked. Everyone is so focused on finding the Layer that's a counter to D2 that they aren't thinking that there might be other ways to defeat it. I could list all of the offensive Layers which can technically be considered counters to D2: Valkyrie, V2, Xcalibur, Minoboros, B2, Z2, Driger, I2, and L2, but I won't do it like that, because it's not that simple.
I definitely understand what you've been saying about this for a while, but you have to also consider than when we're talking about Beyblade, we can't possibly account for all potential situations. When I say something like "Minoboros is a counter to Dark Deathscyther", I can't explain every single time what precisely that means. To me, when discussing Beyblade at a deep level like this, there is a certain amount of prior knowledge and generalization required or else we'd be here all day and night explaining what exact match-ups we're referring to, what launch techniques are necessary, etc.
(Apr. 28, 2017 7:46 PM)Sıon Wrote: I honestly feel very passionate about how pathetic I find the burst meta game to be.
There is such little level of diversity it's sad, honestly. When I saw the sample of battles without Dark Deathscyther, all I saw in the winner column was a repetition of Valkyrie, Neptune, Wyvern, and occasionally Chaos. Out of all the layers that have been released, there were only four that have been used.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Burst is the single worst series in terms over variability, customizabilty, diversivity, and applicability . Even when you see the list of combos, I only saw one dual layer used. Burst is so poor in making parts genuinely useful that presecessors outclass their successors instead of outclassing or even coexisting with them
What "winner column" were you looking at? In addition to the ones you mentioned (although Chaos isn't really competitive, it has placed), things like the following have all been used in winning combinations for WBO events: Xcalibur, Victory Valkyrie, God Valkyrie, Zillion Zeus, Odin, Spriggan, Lost Longinus, Roktavor, Valtryek, Driger S, Gigant Gaia, Dragoon S, Blaze Ragnaruk ... I could keep going. From an objective standpoint, there is a problem with D2 in particular, but I think you're being far too harsh here.
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