Consideration for rules update - Knockouts

(Dec. 12, 2019  2:52 PM)MWF Wrote:
(Dec. 12, 2019  3:00 AM)SupaDav03 Wrote: So I decided to do a little testing to see how often the “bounce-back” comes into play and how it effects the outcome of the battle.

“Bounce-back”: bey hits the back wall of stadium pocket and re-enters the ring continuing to battle. 

From what I could see in my own tests, the assertion that “it doesn’t negatively effect attack beys as much as you might think” seems to hold true.

Could you test against competitive combos to give a better example? To be able to gain a better understanding of how it affects the meta.
Testing a generally good attack combo against stock is not the best test for a rule change.
The best test would be in a tournament. As a trial run.

I’d be happy to. What combos would you like me to test? A tournament setting would obviously be the ideal testing grounds but I figure any extra data points would be helpful. This is in no way definitive but something to consider.
(Dec. 12, 2019  2:57 PM)SupaDav03 Wrote:
(Dec. 12, 2019  2:52 PM)MWF Wrote: Could you test against competitive combos to give a better example? To be able to gain a better understanding of how it affects the meta.
Testing a generally good attack combo against stock is not the best test for a rule change.
The best test would be in a tournament. As a trial run.

I’d be happy to. What combos would you like me to test? A tournament setting would obviously be the ideal testing grounds but I figure any extra data points would be helpful. This is in no way definitive but something to consider.

Could you try JV.Bl.X'Goku and ZD.Bl.X' against LD.00C.Xt+(Left and Right)
I am not sure if these are the best combos but I based them off the more recent winning combos.
(Dec. 12, 2019  2:52 PM)MWF Wrote:
(Dec. 12, 2019  3:00 AM)SupaDav03 Wrote: So I decided to do a little testing to see how often the “bounce-back” comes into play and how it effects the outcome of the battle.

“Bounce-back”: bey hits the back wall of stadium pocket and re-enters the ring continuing to battle. 

From what I could see in my own tests, the assertion that “it doesn’t negatively effect attack beys as much as you might think” seems to hold true.

Could you test against competitive combos to give a better example? To be able to gain a better understanding of how it affects the meta.
Testing a generally good attack combo against stock is not the best test for a rule change.
The best test would be in a tournament. As a trial run.

I mean he purposely used those combos cause of the example Wombat gave
(Dec. 12, 2019  3:10 PM)MWF Wrote:
(Dec. 12, 2019  2:57 PM)SupaDav03 Wrote: I’d be happy to. What combos would you like me to test? A tournament setting would obviously be the ideal testing grounds but I figure any extra data points would be helpful. This is in no way definitive but something to consider.

Could you try JV.Bl.X'Goku and ZD.Bl.X' against LD.00C.Xt+(Left and Right)
I am not sure if these are the best combos but I based them off the more recent winning combos.

Ok, I’ll give those a go. I don’t have Goku tho (who does?) but I could use Go or any other layer weight.

Also Wombat specifically mentioned Balkesh B3 which is why I selected that. I also chose HP because of its high recoil, therefore it’s likelihood to be knocked out of the ring.
You know what would be nice? If this rule was eliminated before the next tournament at Brooklyn, the 22nd. Every match I've ever played in top 8 has devolved into Judgment vs Judgment with the hopes mine won't be the one who gets blown into the back wall first. The game feels fundamentally broken with this rule in place, more-so with knockout finishes counting as 2 points in deck format. It's just 3 Judgment matches and you're done. Less than 15 seconds of total game time, and that is not an exaggeration.
So in MFB there is no back wall since the space on the bb-10 is open. They incorporated the big wall dome piece for the new generation, Burst, so the parts wont go flying. If Battles were played in BB-10's you wouldn't be complaining since there isnt a "Back Wall"
Battles however are not played with the BB-10 Stadium. If they were, this wouldn't be a discussion. The stadium currently used allows for re-entry, and the company that makes it intends for these stadiums to be played with re-entry.
Mr. Palazzo
The likelihood of this rule being removed by the committee within the next few days is extremely low.
The likelihood of Lazerbeamz getting special permission to run the tournament without that rule is 0% if he doesn't ask, and still fairly low even if he does. Did you mention this idea to him? Would he be down with that idea? You should ask.

Your arguments for removing this rule are based on assuming TT intention because of the gameplay in the (fictitious) anime, assumptions made because of how TT runs it over in Japan, assumptions about how TT designs the stadiums, and how you and your friends feel about it.

Aside from their intent (which you do NOT know, you are making guesses), we can have an entirely different ruleset over here at WBO, based on how the committee thinks the matches should run, based on the testing they've done.
"But anime" holds no weight. "But TT/Japan" holds no weight. You won't convince anyone with that. Take a view of the issue that focuses less on your personal feelings, and focuses more on how changing the rule would affect the layers being used in tournaments, and do actual testing like some of the other people in this thread have.
I guess I would have to ask, how often do you play this game? When you play at home with friends, do you immediately end matches when a bey hits a back wall? It feels foolish to end a match so abruptly. Isn't it amusing to watch the beys go crazy and bounce around and then conclude a match?

At tournaments, Judgment is all but mandatory in deck format because of 2 points being scored off of effortless bounces. It would undeniably open up usable layers if they weren't at an automatic risk of loss from bouncing. I wouldn't feel the necessity to run Judgment if another layer would instead still be considered in play after a bounce, but because of it I feel I'm obligated to go for the best route to win. I don't even have fun once we get to top 8. The game feels like a drag because it's nothing but short, hard to judge technical wins. It's more stressful than it has to be and leaves whoever lost feeling cheated out of a game.

Quick Edit - When I hear we need "testing" for this rule, what I'm really hearing is that people don't play the game enough. I've played beyblades about 20-30 hours a week for the last three months straight and without a doubt the game is better without this rule.
Mr. Palazzo You are really creeping up on a violation of the rudeness rules. I suggest you stop. Or we may have to start considering locking this thread and seeing if someone else will take up useful arguments for abolishing the rule in another thread.

If you're not going to do useful testing, at least don't attack people with "you don't play the game enough". And don't call people foolish. Do you understand? Or do you at least acknowledge this warning? Rhetorical question. It really doesn't matter how often I play the game, or if I have an uncle at Nintendo, because I don't make the rules. I just have to judge the dang matches at tournaments, according to the rules as they're written.

This is your fair warning before we start having to consider applying actual account warning levels that stick around for 12 months and (in sufficient quantities) may result in temporary (short at first) bans. And I assure you, I won't do it myself, because I don't want personal bias to interfere with the decision; I will have a different moderator decide whether or not to apply those, this will all be above board.

Please stop doubling down. I get that you're named after a sociopathic statue-pushing clown, but try to be a little less in character and a little more constructive.
I didn't say you're foolish, I'm saying it feels foolish for a round to conclude when beys are still clearly on the arena floor spinning. Considering committee members (Kei) feel this rule should be on its way out, maybe it's time for it to go?

The testing they did was prior to GT beys, as they said the rule was implement to help weak attackers because attack required precision and luck. Attack is without a doubt not weak, a quick glance at the Winning Combination Thread will prove that.

It was hard to judge a Judgment vs Judgment match back in May at its release but it wasn't reconsidered. If it's only become noticeable now how difficult it is to judge these matches, then the only explanation is that the game isn't being played enough. This is seven months of game time where people should have realized how difficult it is to keep an eye on two beys flying backward at high speed. I have to hold the assumption that if seven months have gone by and this has been ignored until just recently, people aren't playing enough.
Please... let’s keep this discussion kind and respectful...
There’s no need for disrespect, threats or name-calling...
Especially over a game of spinning tops.... really....

As for the rule... I just recently found out about it, and I think that we should at least try and see if the absence of this rule will cause any problems... I’ll hafta agree just a lil bit with
Mr. Palazzo on the fact that a match shouldn’t just end with a bounce back, it just doesn’t feel like a authentic win,
Forget the anime/manga, whatever...

And looking forward in the future... ((if)) there’s a new beyblade burst series coming soon, the new beys will be more powerful, and will hit even harder than its predecessor,
And I’m almost certain that we’ll be seeing more knockout bounce backs, and if so, then it’ll become more of an issue...
Annoying even...
(Dec. 12, 2019  7:39 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote:

Have you thought of recording the match and checking the footage? I recommend doing that.
I think the only reason Japan has nullified the Wall bounce rule is that they DON’T have small, light layer like Balkesh B3 that will get hit by a Judgment/ Zwei combo and bounce back in. Japan only allows TT made products, making Balkesh and other light weight Hasbro layers illegal for their playstyle. This rule might not get removed, but if it does, get ready for much more Balkesh Bearing, pP Xt+, and other Defense/ Stamina hybrids to overrun the meta attack types again.
If you're willing to buy me a camera or a phone that doesn't die after a minute of video time I'll happily accept it. Send me a PM if you want so I can give you my paypal address for the cost.

Otherwise, I think the rule is the problem, not me.

(Dec. 12, 2019  8:42 PM)Ardmore Bladers Wrote: I think the only reason Japan has nullified the Wall bounce rule is that they DON’T have small, light layer like Balkesh B3 that will get hit by a Judgment/ Zwei combo and bounce back in. Japan only allows TT made products, making Balkesh and other light weight Hasbro layers illegal for their playstyle. This rule might not get removed, but if it does, get ready for much more Balkesh Bearing, pP Xt+, and other Defense/ Stamina hybrids to overrun the meta attack types again.

All I get out of this is that you're not playing at home in your spare time. Balkesh and Perfect Phoenix find themselves in pockets constantly. You can find WBO tournament footage of Balkesh being smacked into pockets and staying down.
(Dec. 12, 2019  8:44 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: If you're willing to buy me a camera or a phone that doesn't die after a minute of video time I'll happily accept it. Send me a PM if you want so I can give you my paypal address for the cost.

Otherwise, I think the rule is the problem, not me.

I am sure that this is breaking some kind of rule on this site if not multiple.
The rule was put into place when Attack was not as powerful and as you can clearly see Attack isn't harmed by the rule.
But nobody is going to give you money.

You are being disrespectful and rude. Please keep things kind and lighthearted.
Attack isn't harmed by the rule, the game as a whole is harmed. Matches are admittedly hard to judge as said multiple people. At the same time without this rule, stated by Kei, attack is also doing just fine.

Also, if you couldn't tell, my reply asking for his contribution was more of a joke to his poor solution.
(Dec. 12, 2019  3:00 AM)SupaDav03 Wrote: (Tests)

...

From what I could see in my own tests, the assertion that “it doesn’t negatively effect attack beys as much as you might think” seems to hold true.

Thank you for doing this, with my current living situation it's kind of difficult to do something as loud as testing Beyblades (especially Judgement) very often, so it would have been a while before I was able to get it done myself. I mentioned these briefly in the latest episode of the Meta Madness podcast but one thing I've been meaning to ask is did these KOs where Judgement bounces back in happen before or after contact? Currently the rule is that if it exits and then re-enters the stadium before contact, it doesn't count against it.

Either way, after seeing the results of these tests support Kei's claim and reviewing a bunch of my Beyblade West footage for editing (especially my match against KJ, which would have ended 3-0 in 2 rounds with the rule gone rather than 3-2 in 5), I'm pretty convinced that it's ok to remove the wall bounce rule at this point.

EDIT: whoops posted too soon
(Dec. 22, 2019  8:39 AM)Wombat Wrote:
(Dec. 12, 2019  3:00 AM)SupaDav03 Wrote: (Tests)

...

From what I could see in my own tests, the assertion that “it doesn’t negatively effect attack beys as much as you might think” seems to hold true.

Thank you for doing this, with my current living situation it's kind of difficult to do something as loud as testing Beyblades (especially Judgement) very often, so it would have been a while before I was able to get it done myself. I mentioned these briefly in the latest episode of the Meta Madness podcast but one thing I've been meaning to ask is did these KOs where Judgement bounces back in happen before or after contact? Currently the rule is that if it exits and then re-enters the stadium before contact, it doesn't count against it.

Either way, after seeing the results of these tests support Kei's claim and reviewing a bunch of my Beyblade West footage for editing (especially my match against KJ, which would have ended 3-0 in 2 rounds with the rule gone rather than 3-2 in 5), I'm pretty convinced that it's ok to remove the wall bounce rule at this point.

EDIT: whoops posted too soon

All the instances happened after 1st contact. I have a tournament schedule for the 25th of January so I’m going to do my best to track how often it happens there.
I'm all in for the easier judging. It also makes more sense for kids, when their beyblade is still in the stadium after a big hit.
And to be honest, when a Beyblade comes back from the pocket, it lost so much momentum that it'll probably lose by stamina anyway.
This is related, so I'll post it here: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-WBO-Org...re-BSC-Ban

Burst Format Deck KOs are now worth one point. We played using this new rule yesterday at Papabey's Winter Solstice Classic. I'll have more to say about it when I write my tournament report on BeyBase, but suffice to say, it was a definite win in pretty much every way I thought it would be. The Deck Format battles were longer and more strategic and attack certainly didn't suffer. In fact, it thrived.

In addition to my post earlier in this thread, I talked about this change and the idea of removing the wall bounce rule in post on BeyBase.

We will be discussing this more internally soon to make a decision, but I guess the last thing I'll say is this:

The wall bounce rule is to me an undeniable boost to attack types generally speaking. Competitively speaking, it is sound. However, while we pride ourselves on trying to promote Beyblade as a competitive game, in the end our responsibility ironically isn't just to make things "competitive", but to make them accessible, easy to understand, and to manage for players, organizers, judges, and the community.

As a result, especially because the game has changed since the rule was introduced (it was not introduced because of Judgment/Zwei/etc, but long before than as I mentioned before) to buff the strength of attack types considerably, I think the right thing to do is to remove the wall bounce rule.

If we do this, I understand that it would lower the power of attack types and create some undesirable situations for users of them. A good example for me came yesterday:

I was using a left-spin attack type against a left-spin Lord Xt+ combo. I knocked-out Lord and it bounced back in. We weren't 100% sure if it had hit the back wall, so we let the round play out and in the end Lord ended up bursting my combo at the very last second. Upon video review it was determined clearly that Lord was indeed knocked-out, so I got the round win. This was great for me as it helped me to avoid losing two points in what I would consider–competitively speaking–a pretty unfair way.

However, when you look at what we had to do to determine that from a judging perspective ... it's pretty ridiculous that the rule as it stands with the high-KO potential metagame we are in necessitates video review pretty often. I would have hated to lose that round by burst and think that losing the wall bounce rule does make it harder for attack types with lower burst resistance to be successful as the length of battles can be extended (allowing for more hits to be made to get them closer to bursting), but when looking at the grander scheme of things, it is probably going to be a positive to remove it.

And I believe this is true not necessarily because I think we need to be closer to what Japan does (although it is certainly worth studying what they do and taking it seriously) as our metagame is by definition different with the inclusion of Hasbro parts, but because it seems to be the right thing to do for the WBO.

In the end, no change is ever final, so we can always re-evaluate later if needed if the metagame steers back towards stamina/low-KO potential.
I said it once somewhere, but I couldn't find it so I'll say it again.

I feel like we would be good with either 1-point KOs, or removing the back wall ruling. (1 point for a KO with back wall rule in place, OR 2 points for a KO with back wall rule removed). I personally feel like both at the same time (1 point KOs, back wall rule removed) would be overkill and would have a noticably negative impact on attack types.

I am quite interested in the testing that's sure to come from this rule change, ofc. It'll be a treat to read through, especially any testing regarding 1pt KOs + no back wall rule.
The removal of two point KOs doesn't in any way address the earlier stages of tournament play. The matches all but require cameras used and it slows down the pace of the game tremendously at the end of a match when a judge needs to evaluate what actually happened.
1 point KOs is there to encourage more play time, a reward for making it through pools. Attack types only scoring one point with their knockouts isn't slowing them down at all. Even with the removal of the rule attackers would still be killing it, because although it's not uncommon for a beyblade to bounce back into the arena, it's also true that these new attackers put people down so hard that they stay in pockets.

Deceased Crab and I had an excellent game involving two attackers once we reached deck format. His Judgment blasted my Imperial out of the ring but I bounced back in. We spun around a bit and then his Judgment gave me a second smack, knocking me into the same pocket permanently. What would have been an awesome round was immediately diminished by the judge having to look at a camera to see what actually happened with the first knockout. These technical wins don't come close to offering the same level of thrills given by a game played to its full conclusion.

The removal of this rule shouldn't be looked at as a specific nerf to attack types, although surely there will be some impact, but as a way to allow the game to be played in the best possible manner.
Just bringing this back to the front. I play too much beyblade in my spare time to be happy with the current rule set still in use during tournament play.
I was in a battle Judgement vs. Prime and all it was were knockouts.