Wing is roughly as good as death even without the overhang, but IMO once you take into account duo, diablo and the two best synchrome combos (and maybe more), the defense list is pretty full, and death is a better balance wheel than wing imo. I like wing a lot but diablo and the synchromes all do the same kind of thing.

I agree with basically all of this, that's exactly what I was thinking. Death and Wing seem even (though I'm personally more on the side of Wing rather than Death myself), and I'm wondering if either are really up to snuff with the rest of the list.

EDIT: Haha, someone on Facebook plugged Phantom Hades 90MF for Balance. I mean, I obviously can't say I disagree, but I don't think it's been used in a tournament at all, hah.

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

Well.

Kei: We're having a lot of excellent results during our tournaments. A personal experience during a training session:
Tanuki (MF-H Diablo BD145 RF) vs Galaxy (Duo BD145 RB) : Galaxy wins 0-3
Galaxy (MF-H Diablo GB145 RF) vs IPTBladerStyle (MF-H Duo BD145 RB) : Galaxy wins 3-2

Yes, I know that it's a short test during a training session, but it's just to clarify my experience with GB145. I don't know if it is the best choice for Diablo. th!nk said me about R145, I haven't tried it yet. But GB145 makes a great difference as you can see!

Kei: Maybe you're right. The fact is that I love TH170 on Diablo because between TH170 and BD145, I'd prefer the first one; it always is because of the bad situation that BD145 vs BD145 does. I prefer to have the opportunity of making contacts and hope in a lucky recoil that lose without doing anything

Kei: MF, here, is always risky! As I said, I'd only play MF when I'm 100000% sure that my opponent is going to play a DEF or STM customization. RF vs MF... we know the results ! But, maybe it's because of our aggressive MG. Maybe it's perfect for yours, it's just inconsistent for ours
I prefer a weak shoot with a DEF combo. I prefer a lot of grip with an RB\RDF\etc., hoping to stay in the stadium until the end. A weak shoot with an MF against an RF, here, means a 3-0 win for the RF's user!

Kei: I'm going to write you how we here, in Italy, use Diablo for defense:
MF-H Diablo Bull\Cancer TH170\BD145 RB\RDF\RSF

Diablo's shape isn't the classic round shape, you're right. But I strongly think that if a Wheel can absorb, very well, it deserves a mention in the DEF section.
Think at the Death: it's the classic defensive shape.. but it is not good enough as Diablo is.
I think that the shape is important, but it can't define automatically a function.

Ingulit: I've not seen your tests yet, but do you mean that Hades vs Phantom wins, or that Hades "wins" in a solo spin test? If it's the second one, I wouldn't add it in the list. I find quite useless to add it only because it has a better time. If it is the first one, it must absolutely go in the list!

@RS discussion: RB has a bigger surface. It means that stamina and defence are better than RS; the same for RSF, even if the difference is less clear due to the similar shape, I find that the RSF that comes from the Strongest Set - which is softer than the one that comes with Ray Gill - is one of the best defensive tips at the moment
RDF has a better pressure on the pattern, and it has a wide shape.
RS, IMHO, is heavly outclassed.

Spin Stealers discussion: all of them are only good against DEF & STM combos. At the moment no one of them can handle an Attack combo. But, even if all of them can do good things against that kind of combos, I find more useful to use an Attack customization to win.
For example:
Flash GB RF can allow me to win against: ATK,DEF, STM and Spin Stealers.
Spin Stealers can allow me to win against: DEF, STM.

I'm reasoning on pure statistic bases. I prefer to have a combo that can allow me to win against the major numbers of combos: for this reason, I choose Attack.

---

Melseth,il diavolo che si annida nel profondo della mia mente... mi spinge alla distruzione e alla pazzia...

My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

Diablo BD145: Yeah this is my concern, I don't mind BD145 being listed on it as an attack track that much (though IMO it's a defensive setup so it really shouldn't), but there's no way it's the only competitive track or good enough to warrant diablo's listing as an attack wheel on its own.

I'm curious as to why you use two sided CW's on Diablo, Galaxy, as well as the GB145 thing. To me it seems simply logical to use three-sided parts with it, but I would very much appreciate it if you could try R145 and Kerbercs/Unicorno2 and see how they compare to the two sided parts. Anyone could do this given the parts but having someone who doesn't jump to "three sided wheel - three sided parts" would help eliminate any subconscious bias towards R145 (obviously it provides a bias to GB145 but as the three sided thing is more common/accepted I'd rather have the bias against it. Testing from more people is always better though.)

Diablo Classification: Basically, this is the same thing I said, it doesn't have a particularly traditional defensive profile but it has enough weight to compensate for that deviation. Its shape really isn't as aggressive as people seem to think, haha.

Phantom/Hades: He's talking about Phantom with the Hades Clear Wheel. I believe he used Cancer as the comparison point (which outperforms aquario and IIRC does roughly the same as Cygnus if not slightly better).

RS: RB having a bigger surface area should mean worse capacity for stamina but it could be compensated for by the aggressive movement. RB hasn't been tested anywhere near enough as it is, and definitely not enough to remove RS. Most of the testing I've seen found RS to be stronger for straight up defense.

Spin Stealers: Sadly, most places don't have an aggressive enough metagame for attack to cause spin stealers any real usage issues.

Flash isn't able to handle Revizer Revizer E230 all that well (at least not without sacrificing the ability to handle other things), while a spin stealer beats it easily. Spin Stealers are basically pointless if they can't handle stamina (as then they're just weak stamina combos, albeit with the ability to weak launch against aggro launched defense) but MLD CH120EWD was doing fairly well against them.

The issue with attack, at least outside Italy, is that it just isn't considered reliable enough in a tournament situation, too much room for error for people to be comfortable with it for general use, unless there is an attack setup that easily handles the main defense combinations (as we saw with flash). Again, while Kei said we shouldn't consider these kinds of thing, generally we have to if we're classifying things as "competitive" - because how competitive something is will changed based on what is used. For conventional combos this doesn't make a difference, but for those that are more affected by this sort of thing, it really is the difference between being competitive and being niche.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Diablo BD145: Yeah this is my concern, I don't mind BD145 being listed on it as an attack track that much (though IMO it's a defensive setup so it really shouldn't), but there's no way it's the only competitive track or good enough to warrant diablo's listing as an attack wheel on its own.

I'm curious as to why you use two sided CW's on Diablo, Galaxy, as well as the GB145 thing. To me it seems simply logical to use three-sided parts with it, but I would very much appreciate it if you could try R145 and Kerbercs/Unicorno2 and see how they compare to the two sided parts. Anyone could do this given the parts but having someone who doesn't jump to "three sided wheel - three sided parts" would help eliminate any subconscious bias towards R145 (obviously it provides a bias to GB145 but as the three sided thing is more common/accepted I'd rather have the bias against it. Testing from more people is always better though.)

Sure, I'll do as soon as possible!

Diablo Classification: Basically, this is the same thing I said, it doesn't have a particularly traditional defensive profile but it has enough weight to compensate for that deviation. Its shape really isn't as aggressive as people seem to think, haha.

Right!

Phantom/Hades: He's talking about Phantom with the Hades Clear Wheel. I believe he used Cancer as the comparison point (which outperforms aquario and IIRC does roughly the same as Cygnus if not slightly better).

Ah, sorry. Here it's 4.00 AM... haha! Well, we're testing it too. It's really really good. I love Hades!

RS: RB having a bigger surface area should mean worse capacity for stamina but it could be compensated for by the aggressive movement. RB hasn't been tested anywhere near enough as it is, and definitely not enough to remove RS. Most of the testing I've seen found RS to be stronger for straight up defense.

Uhm, I don't agree. I mean, a sharp tip creates a lot of pressure on the stadium, and its angle is really limited. It means that it will fall down quicker than a wider tip.
A wider bottom creates less pressure and a better angle, it should mean more spin time.
Also, I personally prefer wide defensive bottom because there's a better chance to stay in the stadium until the end. A big area means that you have the chance to resist better to the opponent's attacks!

Spin Stealers: Sadly, most places don't have an aggressive enough metagame for attack to cause spin stealers any real usage issues.

Flash isn't able to handle Revizer Revizer E230 all that well (at least not without sacrificing the ability to handle other things), while a spin stealer beats it easily. Spin Stealers are basically pointless if they can't handle stamina (as then they're just weak stamina combos, albeit with the ability to weak launch against aggro launched defense) but MLD CH120EWD was doing fairly well against them.

Sure, but as I said, reasoning on my MG I wouldn't play that combos. But yeah, it's a problem of country!

The issue with attack, at least outside Italy, is that it just isn't considered reliable enough in a tournament situation, too much room for error for people to be comfortable with it for general use, unless there is an attack setup that easily handles the main defense combinations (as we saw with flash). Again, while Kei said we shouldn't consider these kinds of thing, generally we have to if we're classifying things as "competitive" - because how competitive something is will changed based on what is used. For conventional combos this doesn't make a difference, but for those that are more affected by this sort of thing, it really is the difference between being competitive and being niche.

Sorry, haha, but I can't udìnderstand you. No offense, of course, but I really can't imagine your MG seeing at mine!
It's really a problem of countries. We have always handled all the defensive combinations, even when Flash didn't exist yet. That's why it sounds so strange to me, sorry guys!

---

Melseth,il diavolo che si annida nel profondo della mia mente... mi spinge alla distruzione e alla pazzia...

My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

RS: RB having a bigger surface area should mean worse capacity for stamina but it could be compensated for by the aggressive movement. RB hasn't been tested anywhere near enough as it is, and definitely not enough to remove RS. Most of the testing I've seen found RS to be stronger for straight up defense.

Uhm, I don't agree. I mean, a sharp tip creates a lot of pressure on the stadium, and its angle is really limited. It means that it will fall down quicker than a wider tip.
A wider bottom creates less pressure and a better angle, it should mean more spin time.
Also, I personally prefer wide defensive bottom because there's a better chance to stay in the stadium until the end. A big area means that you have the chance to resist better to the opponent's attacks!

I want to go on the record and say that, from my experience and the test results of this community, you guys are both wrong about different things:

RB has far and away better stamina than RS, it's almost no contest. RB has basically the best stamina a pure-rubber tip can have, as many test results have shown.

RS definitely has more defense than RB for numerous reasons, some of which that I can think of off the top of my head include the fact that RS has a stationary movement pattern compared to RB's aggressive one, and RB has a known problem catching the tornado ridge when knocked back, something RS does admirably.

The issue with attack, at least outside Italy, is that it just isn't considered reliable enough in a tournament situation, too much room for error for people to be comfortable with it for general use, unless there is an attack setup that easily handles the main defense combinations (as we saw with flash). Again, while Kei said we shouldn't consider these kinds of thing, generally we have to if we're classifying things as "competitive" - because how competitive something is will changed based on what is used. For conventional combos this doesn't make a difference, but for those that are more affected by this sort of thing, it really is the difference between being competitive and being niche.

Sorry, haha, but I can't udìnderstand you. No offense, of course, but I really can't imagine your MG seeing at mine!
It's really a problem of countries. We have always handled all the defensive combinations, even when Flash didn't exist yet. That's why it sounds so strange to me, sorry guys!

Haha, it's not a problem, you have a very interesting point of view to say the least thanks to your meta. It sounds like a lot of fun!

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

Yeah I made an error on the RB/RS thing, I didn't mean to say aggressive movement, I meant the wider tip would provide it with better balance compared to the narrow, tall tip of flash.
That said, it's a balance between sharpness that provides low friction for better survival, and width or shape in general that provides stability for better survival. Neither S or XF can outspin D-series tips

I'm aware RB has better stamina and I should have made that clear, haha, my bad, didn't get enough sleep last night.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Should we make a note about E230's mode or no? The two modes are VERY different; for example, as I posted in the MF-H Flash Orion W145MF thread, MF-H Duo Gasher E230(Boost)CS gets absolutely totaled by Flash while MF-H Duo Gasher E230(Normal)CS has a much, much better chance at staying in the stadium. That being said, it seemed like "Boost Mode" does better against Flash on S130, though I can't honestly say for sure anymore.

EDIT: Then again, the list doesn't specify what modes the 4D wheels are in, so I don't see why this should be any different. Sorry, disregard this post.

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

E230 would be top tier in both modes no?

Even if not, Kei has stated that in his opinion (i.e. the law) this list shouldn't baby people, and I'm pretty sure we never listed mode for BD145 when Hell was on the list.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

So, uh, check the testing thread? If you're running this thread you really have a responsibility to do that kind of thing, I mean, if you have the final say, you really have to be completely up to date with what others test and use, at the very least...

Sure. My last list wasn't supposed to be "final", by any means. If Saramanda Saramanda is that good, I'll look into it. Not many people were talking about it, and I don't believe it has placed at any tournaments, so I didn't add it when I made my list.

The testing thread is there if you want to check it. It doesn't seem to fair too well against attack, but the versatility of dual spin against the broader range of opponents you face in tournaments is very useful, and I'm pretty sure gravity had significantly better stamina than LDD/LDG, so it would likely win a mirror match. Still, look at the results and try it out.

I will. However, I'm more interested in hearing testimonials from experienced users (like Yamislayer) as to why it is good, and why it is better than the L Drago Destroy/Guardian version.

I'm assuming that it would not fare as well against Attack, so if that is true, then we must determine: what truly is the advantage of dual-spin? Does it overshadow the defensive properties of L Drago Destroy/Guardian?

A "mirror match' isn't too likely, so I'm not sure if that factor should be considered in determining whether or not to add it (assuming that it would indeed defeat L Drago Destroy or Guardian).

So would you say MF does not deserve a place? I'm just curious, I don't really have significant experience with the RDF version as I don't currently have a working L/R Launcher (or any right spin launcher) so I can't really test properly.

Do you mean "don't currently have a working L/R Launcher (or any left spin launcher)"? We're talking about L Drago, right?

Anyways, yes, that's what I'm saying. For that combo specifically, it doesn't. MF can KO Stamina customs well, but so can the RDF version with the added bonus of vastly improved defense, and increased precession time. Additionally, the increased overall Stamina of MF is basically negated due to BD145's tendency to scrape, and it makes little sense to Tornado Stall with an L Drago combo, since you'll just end up spin stealing/equalizing once you reach the centre.

Everyone else agreed upon it in your absence and it is largely used defensively. A wheel can be both offensive and defensive, it just takes weight (which diablo has). It performed just as well in traditional defensive setups as Death last I checked, so that should be more than enough to settle the matter.

I guess so ... But what do we do? List Diablo BD145RF for both Attack and Defense? Maybe we could just remove RF from the "defense" version listed. I challenge anyone to contest that Diablo BD145RF is a "defense" type lol.

Re: RSF: Reason it aint up there is RDF and RB, and even RS in some cases. In testing it always performed at best only barely above CS in terms of pure defense, and it is barely used nowadays from what I've seen.

So if RSF is supposedly better than CS, why is it not on the list? It doesn't matter if it is used widely or not.

The only real testing was me doing some solo spin tests that showed Hades gave Phantom an extra minute of solo spin time. This weekend I'll do some comparison tests to see if Hades and PD really are top-tier worthy. On a side note, I love having two Phantoms :3

I might test Hades myself as well this weekend.

I do too, but I've used them so much that I think it might be time to order another one! haha

You're very right about RS's stamina being piss poor, there is no questioning that. In my experience, however, it's one of the few tips that I have difficulty KOing with Flash when I'm using Duo and Death on either BD145 or (especially) E230; RB and RDF aren't particularly easy to KO, but they're farrrr easier than RS. I'm not sure Duo and Death have the weight to stop the train that is Flash on anything less defensive than RS (of course, then they have to OS it...).

We should do some tests to determine precisely what RS's Stamina is like against popular Attack combos. This, to me, will determine whether it should stay or not.

Even round wheels on RF are anti attack, and many do it better than diablo at the cost of not being able to handle stamina (and therefore more like a defense combo). Diablo+RF could definitely go on balance though, but it still needs to be on the defense list unless you also remove death, but for that to happen, they have to be no longer competitive in defense setups.

Diablo + RF (BD145RF, in particular) is an Attack combo in every sense of the word. It's level of versatility is exceptional, so Balance may actually be the best place for it.

As for TH170 on Flash, again, I don't think it is effective against enough things to be on the list. It's a niche setup, and unless E230 IS everywhere, it isn't competitive. Even if we aren't supposed to consider distribution but the fact is it is an exception to that case... That said, we are determining what is COMPETITIVE, and what is/isn't competitive will depend on part distribution anyway. I know there's no point arguing with you over this, though.

How does part distribution determine what is/isn't competitive in this context? We are taking a look at the metagame from a macro level, at a vantage point where micro factors such as player skill/part distribution/etc. are irrelevant; what matters is what customizations we can objectively determine are the "best".

What I'm trying to say is not that TH170 should necessarily be added right now, but that factors such as those listed above should not be what keeps it off the list. What should keep it off the list is whether or not it has a highly competitive use. I think it does because it probably isn't as "niche" as you're making it out to be: for example, don't you think it would also fare well against TH170/230 Stamina combos?

Kei: We're having a lot of excellent results during our tournaments. A personal experience during a training session:
Tanuki (MF-H Diablo BD145 RF) vs Galaxy (Duo BD145 RB) : Galaxy wins 0-3
Galaxy (MF-H Diablo GB145 RF) vs IPTBladerStyle (MF-H Duo BD145 RB) : Galaxy wins 3-2

Yes, I know that it's a short test during a training session, but it's just to clarify my experience with GB145. I don't know if it is the best choice for Diablo. th!nk said me about R145, I haven't tried it yet. But GB145 makes a great difference as you can see!

Regardless of what these results tell me/don't tell me (I'd have to see them happen in person, honestly, so that I can observe the technique of both Bladers), your original point is fair. Even if something other than BD145 isn't the best Track for Diablo in general, you might not always need the extra weight/size/etc. that it provides, and in some situations (as you talked about), it could even be detrimental. So, I do think another 145-height Track should be added. Whether or not it should be GB145, I don't know.

Kei: MF, here, is always risky! As I said, I'd only play MF when I'm 100000% sure that my opponent is going to play a DEF or STM customization. RF vs MF... we know the results ! But, maybe it's because of our aggressive MG. Maybe it's perfect for yours, it's just inconsistent for ours
I prefer a weak shoot with a DEF combo. I prefer a lot of grip with an RB\RDF\etc., hoping to stay in the stadium until the end. A weak shoot with an MF against an RF, here, means a 3-0 win for the RF's user!

Ah! I think you may have misread the combo which I added. It was Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF not MF. This should clear things up for you.

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So, uh, check the testing thread? If you're running this thread you really have a responsibility to do that kind of thing, I mean, if you have the final say, you really have to be completely up to date with what others test and use, at the very least...

Sure. My last list wasn't supposed to be "final", by any means. If Saramanda Saramanda is that good, I'll look into it. Not many people were talking about it, and I don't believe it has placed at any tournaments, so I didn't add it when I made my list.

Generally when anyone types up an official looking list, people take it as the de facto proper list, due to the time taken between updates.

It would be at a disadvantage in terms of placing because Revizer came out not long after Zero G parts were legalised so people used that instead. The main question is whether Revizer is enough to push it off the list, as Revizer Revizer does everything better, but Saramanda Saramanda is still the second best setup in terms of pure defense, apparently.

I will. However, I'm more interested in hearing testimonials from experienced users (like Yamislayer) as to why it is good, and why it is better than the L Drago Destroy/Guardian version.

I'm assuming that it would not fare as well against Attack, so if that is true, then we must determine: what truly is the advantage of dual-spin? Does it overshadow the defensive properties of L Drago Destroy/Guardian?

A "mirror match' isn't too likely, so I'm not sure if that factor should be considered in determining whether or not to add it (assuming that it would indeed defeat L Drago Destroy or Guardian).

Good, good, and I agree, though asking in the thread would be useful too.

And uh, mirror match was a pretty poor choice of terms. 1v1

Do you mean "don't currently have a working L/R Launcher (or any left spin launcher)"? We're talking about L Drago, right?

Nope, got like 5 beylauncher L's, but they can't launch any opponents worth testing against

Anyways, yes, that's what I'm saying. For that combo specifically, it doesn't. MF can KO Stamina customs well, but so can the RDF version with the added bonus of vastly improved defense, and increased precession time. Additionally, the increased overall Stamina of MF is basically negated due to BD145's tendency to scrape, and it makes little sense to Tornado Stall with an L Drago combo, since you'll just end up spin stealing/equalizing once you reach the centre.

Thankyou for this. I hadn't considered the precession vs scraping factor in their performance, that explains basically everything I was wondering about.

I guess so ... But what do we do? List Diablo BD145RF for both Attack and Defense? Maybe we could just remove RF from the "defense" version listed. I challenge anyone to contest that Diablo BD145RF is a "defense" type lol.

Okay, I'll contest it, on the grounds that it is one of the most solid ways to defeat attack types, and is not as focussed as trying to KO defenders as attack combos tend to be (as the aim for attack is to be able to KO any defender). It's a balance between defense and attack, but overall I consider it a defensive combination based on my experience with it. I was rusty when I was using it, admittedly, but it really did not work well against duo and it's only KO's were down to weight, an advantage it doesn't have against Revizer Revizer and co.

That said, I'm willing to compromise on this kind of thing, and have no issue with removing RF from the listing in defense, though I would prefer removing BD145 from attack or moving the whole thing to balance.

So if RSF is supposedly better than CS, why is it not on the list? It doesn't matter if it is used widely or not.

"At best" was the key word there, and it is probably only just equal on a purely defensive basis. Its stamina is much, much worse than RB, CS, and even RDF, and RB specifically does everything RSF can do, while the other two block it out basically.

We should do some tests to determine precisely what RS's Stamina is like against popular Attack combos. This, to me, will determine whether it should stay or not.

Agreed.

Diablo + RF (BD145RF, in particular) is an Attack combo in every sense of the word. It's level of versatility is exceptional, so Balance may actually be the best place for it.

Addressed above, I disagree, but balance would be a very good compromise as it blends both traits and arguably does that best in the more aggressive setups (which are absolutely still defensive in my opinion as I've long since dropped the notion that defenders can't move).

How does part distribution determine what is/isn't competitive in this context? We are taking a look at the metagame from a macro level, at a vantage point where micro factors such as player skill/part distribution/etc. are irrelevant; what matters is what customizations we can objectively determine are the "best".

I feel I've already addressed this completely in my previous posts.

In terms of the Niche-ness of that combo, honestly, just about anything not on a low track can KO tall height stamina combos reliably, even with only a moderately aggressive tip. Perhaps I am missing something about it, but it seems rather pointless when left spin (barring variares) can easily do what it does.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Ingulit (RS\RB discussion) : uhm, yes RS has a lot of defense, but I really don't love when I read something like "RB has an aggressive movement pattern". I mean, when I play RB I don't launch my combo at the maximum of the power. The strategy where is? I think, it's quite normal that the movements are really aggressive with an aggressive launch... but.. why?
I still prefer using RB with a weak shoot: it allows me to have a semi-stationary pattern, the friction will be increased, and being the RB's shape wider than the RS one, the attacker will be forced to do its best to move my combo.

@th!nk\Kei (Diablo discussion) : putting aside which is the best track on it - I strongly think, at this point of the situation, that lots of tests are required (with R145,GB145 and other interesting tracks) - I really really really love "Balance" for Diablo, but at the same time I'm thinking that it could be quite confusing for players that read. I mean, under Balance, it should be something like:

Diablo BD\GB\R\etc RF\RB

To be honest, if I was a new player, my thoughts would be something like: "what?RF or RB?BD or GB or R?"
I mean, yeah Diablo is a "balance" MW, but the other components are too much different, and that tracks can change their functions changin the launch. I'm quite afraid that under Balance, that combos, but principally Diablo as MW, could be misunderstood.

---

Melseth,il diavolo che si annida nel profondo della mia mente... mi spinge alla distruzione e alla pazzia...

My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

Ingulit (RS\RB discussion) : uhm, yes RS has a lot of defense, but I really don't love when I read something like "RB has an aggressive movement pattern". I mean, when I play RB I don't launch my combo at the maximum of the power. The strategy where is? I think, it's quite normal that the movements are really aggressive with an aggressive launch... but.. why?
I still prefer using RB with a weak shoot: it allows me to have a semi-stationary pattern, the friction will be increased, and being the RB's shape wider than the RS one, the attacker will be forced to do its best to move my combo.

That is a completely valid way to use RB, absolutely! My only comment would be that you can't take full advantage of RB's better stamina over RS without a full-power launch. And you have to admit, RB does have a fairly aggressive pattern on a full launch for at least a little while at the start of the match (unless you haven't cleaned the tip in forever or something, lol).

And please don't get me wrong, I definitely think RB is one of the best defense tips available, I just think that RS stays in the stadium a little bit better for reasons I described (though its stamina and balance are pretty awful).

@th!nk\Kei (Diablo discussion) : putting aside which is the best track on it - I strongly think, at this point of the situation, that lots of tests are required (with R145,GB145 and other interesting tracks) - I really really really love "Balance" for Diablo, but at the same time I'm thinking that it could be quite confusing for players that read. I mean, under Balance, it should be something like:

Diablo BD\GB\R\etc RF\RB

To be honest, if I was a new player, my thoughts would be something like: "what?RF or RB?BD or GB or R?"
I mean, yeah Diablo is a "balance" MW, but the other components are too much different, and that tracks can change their functions changin the launch. I'm quite afraid that under Balance, that combos, but principally Diablo as MW, could be misunderstood.

It might be sort of confusing, but I think Balance is still a good place for it since that Diablo combo displays both attack and defense properties. As far as track/tip choices are concerned, we might stick with just BD145RF/R2F for now since that sounds like one of the more popular setups in tournaments, and then do some more testing with the other parts (R145/GB145/RB) to see how they hold up.

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

No, don't worry.
I was just discussing about the discussion you wrote here about the test results on RB
Anyway, I really don't love that way of playing RB, it's the worst way to use that awesome bottom
And yes, its pattern is more aggressive than the RS one! Sure, but I still prefer RB! It's a personal preference


Mmh, yeah. Anyway, I would also hear something from the others. As I, and also you, said Balance is the best section for Diablo, but at the same time I think that it might be really confusing
I dunno

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Melseth,il diavolo che si annida nel profondo della mia mente... mi spinge alla distruzione e alla pazzia...

My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

Sorry for the double post. I'm going to write some thing that impressed me today during the MF event.

1) W145 deserves a spot, it's one of the best 145s at the moment, IMHO.
2) Duo W145 MB must be tested, absolutely. It's been one of the best combos played today.
terzinaccio, with a proper inclined launch, has won 3-2 against my Flash Pisces GB145 RF.
3) Gravity Perseus BD145 RDF doesn't deserve a spot, IMHO. It has lost against:
Flash TH170 RF
Duo 230 MB
Duo BD145 MB
Flash GB145 RF
Basalt 230 CS
Diablo BD145 RB
Diablo S130 RF
Flash H145 RF
4) I tested R145 under my Diablo both against Flash GB145 RF and Flash TH170 RF. The bottoms under R145 were RF and RB. Diablo won quite easly with both of my combos, but I haven't seen any particular difference with BD145.
5) The track, under Diablo, that has absolutely caught my attention was S130.
Diablo does its best when its opponent is higher, and S130 is the best option at the moment, IMHO.
Diablo S130 RF is an aggressive combo that allow you to defeat easy: Flash S130\GB145\TH170 RF\R2F, Gravity Perseus DB145 RDF and it has better chances against Duo BD145 RB\MB. Thank to S130, Diablo starts to hit BD145 aggressively! Diablo BD145 RF can't do that and with a GB145, Diablo starts to hit Duo that has no recoil.
Diablo S130 RB is a wall.

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Melseth,il diavolo che si annida nel profondo della mia mente... mi spinge alla distruzione e alla pazzia...

My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

3) Gravity Perseus BD145 RDF has lost against:
Duo 230 MB
Duo BD145 MB
Basalt 230 CS
Diablo BD145 RB


Dude, you either have a TRASH RDF or a WRONG Gravity mold. no way it can lose to duo bd145 MB, i was testing it and i got like 20-0 for gravity lol. i can understand the 230 one, but oonce stammina clear is on gravity and MF-H is used, gravity wins mostof the time from my tests. but basalt and diablo? seriously WHAT?

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Oh Mighty Ocean, guide us as we journey through the darkest pit of night.

"Yamislayer, you are what we call Revolution. Your ideas, threads, often lead to something new, and even if not always successful, It's something that a non-revolutionary mind can't handle"

Yo!
I've never played that combo, I've only defeated it both with Duo BD MB and Flash GB RF
Maybe you can't defeat Duo because you don't use a proper inclined launch as I did. I won 3-1 with my Duo BD MB.
Anyway.. ask to JKronos, terzinaccio, darkwocher and so on - in our Italian community - if you are looking for more informations

EDIT: maybe your tests are not valid as ours because you play alone or with pasty that has always the same skills. Try with other people!

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Melseth,il diavolo che si annida nel profondo della mia mente... mi spinge alla distruzione e alla pazzia...

My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

That sounded like a joke. You do realize that i used to play when Italy was active and players like Ispanico, Vigno Arenanet and many others were at their best, right?

It's BD145 VS BD145 and MB VS RDF at low rotations, how could you win in that situation?
My own Gravity is a Mold 1 SK (yeah they do exist) but it worked with a Mold 1 Takara as well. Just make sure your gravity is not mold 2 or a hasbro one (maybe they work as well but i didn't test it).

And for the proper inclination, gravity with an external pattern screws that up quite badly, i'll care to test some new inclinations but i don't think it will affect gravity that much. The only way i could win WITH duo (cause i CAN defeat duo, maybe you meant i could not defeat gravity with duo) was:
gravity shoot at the center with NO inclination, duo shoot quite strong with an inclination which gives duo an external pattern (which was not really available once MB gets too worn anyway)

and yeah, winning against it with attack is what should happen cause attack customs do have an advantage over it, we already discussed that

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Oh Mighty Ocean, guide us as we journey through the darkest pit of night.

"Yamislayer, you are what we call Revolution. Your ideas, threads, often lead to something new, and even if not always successful, It's something that a non-revolutionary mind can't handle"

Guys, quit sniping at eachother. I don't care what your history on or off-site is, this thread is not a venting outlet for your squabbles.

Keep it academic or keep it to yourselves.

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Some manner of Octopus.

I'd like to, I was just trying to say my opinion on a combo.
Let's discuss this anyway, i'm here to learn something, cause from my tests gravity just wins solid.

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Oh Mighty Ocean, guide us as we journey through the darkest pit of night.

"Yamislayer, you are what we call Revolution. Your ideas, threads, often lead to something new, and even if not always successful, It's something that a non-revolutionary mind can't handle"

That sounded like a joke. You do realize that i used to play when Italy was active and players like Ispanico, Vigno Arenanet and many others were at their best, right?

A joke? I'm just saying that you don't play in a WBO event since 2010\2011, things and skills are different now, but as Hazel said it's not relevant. I've just said this to let you know that it's not a joke, I'm quite serious about skills.

It's BD145 VS BD145 and MB VS RDF at low rotations, how could you win in that situation?
My own Gravity is a Mold 1 SK (yeah they do exist) but it worked with a Mold 1 Takara as well. Just make sure your gravity is not mold 2 or a hasbro one (maybe they work as well but i didn't test it).

Why I should stay at the same rotations of an RDF with an MB and a Duo? It's almost impossible...
And..Gravity is not mine, I'm not so brave to play that combo. I have only one Gravity (TT) and, no, it is not mold 2,3,etc.

And for the proper inclination, gravity with an external pattern screws that up quite badly, i'll care to test some new inclinations but i don't think it will affect gravity that much. The only way i could win WITH duo (cause i CAN defeat duo, maybe you meant i could not defeat gravity with duo) was:
gravity shoot at the center with NO inclination, duo shoot quite strong with an inclination which gives duo an external pattern (which was not really available once MB gets too worn anyway)

and yeah, winning against it with attack is what should happen cause attack customs do have an advantage over it, we already discussed that

If you incline your Bey intentionally just to make sure that your Gravity will be able to win, it is quite easy to defeat any combos. Try to play against someone that has a completely unknown play for you!
I wasn't meaning that you are not able to defeat Gravity with Duo BD MB, or anything else. I was just saying that if that combo is not able to defeat a stamina's one, it doesn't deserve a spot. Nothing else.

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Melseth,il diavolo che si annida nel profondo della mia mente... mi spinge alla distruzione e alla pazzia...

My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

The testing thread for the combination would be a much more practical place to have a lengthy discussion on the combo, guys. More people who can and will test what you're saying will see it that way.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Hello th!nk!
Unfortunately, I don't have the RDF and as you can understand, it's impossible to do any tests for me

Mainly, I was talking about the things that caught my attention during our last MF event in Aprilia.
Here, you can read everything:

Spoiler (Click to View)

Sorry for the double post. I'm going to write some thing that impressed me today during the MF event.

1) W145 deserves a spot, it's one of the best 145s at the moment, IMHO.
2) Duo W145 MB must be tested, absolutely. It's been one of the best combos played today.
terzinaccio, with a proper inclined launch, has won 3-2 against my Flash Pisces GB145 RF.
3) Gravity Perseus BD145 RDF doesn't deserve a spot, IMHO. It has lost against:
Flash TH170 RF
Duo 230 MB
Duo BD145 MB
Flash GB145 RF
Basalt 230 CS
Diablo BD145 RB
Diablo S130 RF
Flash H145 RF
4) I tested R145 under my Diablo both against Flash GB145 RF and Flash TH170 RF. The bottoms under R145 were RF and RB. Diablo won quite easly with both of my combos, but I haven't seen any particular difference with BD145.
5) The track, under Diablo, that has absolutely caught my attention was S130.
Diablo does its best when its opponent is higher, and S130 is the best option at the moment, IMHO.
Diablo S130 RF is an aggressive combo that allow you to defeat easy: Flash S130\GB145\TH170 RF\R2F, Gravity Perseus DB145 RDF and it has better chances against Duo BD145 RB\MB. Thank to S130, Diablo starts to hit BD145 aggressively! Diablo BD145 RF can't do that and with a GB145, Diablo starts to hit Duo that has no recoil.
Diablo S130 RB is a wall.

Then, Yamislayer started to talk about the 4th point of my post because he really love that combo. He posted a video in the Italian section that could be used as a "valid test", but after the tournament we had, I strongly think that it is not valid anymore. And I'm not alone also the other guys at the tournemnt have seen that that combo is not competitive.
From what is happened on the 22th, as you can read, I think that Gravity BD145 RDF doesn't deserve a spot because of the great number of combos that can defeat it.
Also, against stamina it doesn't work and it is a shame for a spin stealer. I played a Duo Bull BD145 MB against Gravity Perseus BD145 RDF and I won 3-1 with a proper launch for three times.
Against Attack customizations it can't do anything and against Diablo, the results doesn't change.

Anyway, I'll try to do my best tomorrow after our plastic event to set-up a valid test and writing it here on the forum!

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Melseth,il diavolo che si annida nel profondo della mia mente... mi spinge alla distruzione e alla pazzia...

My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

I've read the discussion in full and would rather it ended here. No argument should go on this long in the advanced forum without testing to back it up, and we are not the only people who can test things.
We have a testing thread for that specific combination Here, so if you want to see or request tests, use that thread, and once the discussion is resolved adequately, I'm sure it will be bought up here if the combination does turn out to be as effective as yamislayer says, or won't be bought up again if it is as ineffective as you've said.

The argument has come to a point where it is discussing issues entirely irrelevant to this topic, and you both should be mature enough to drop it now, and move on to doing something productive to resolve it, or encouraging others to do so, if you are not able. Testing is where that resolution will be found.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I've read the discussion in full and would rather it ended here. No argument should go on this long in the advanced forum without testing to back it up, and we are not the only people who can test things.
We have a testing thread for that specific combination Here, so if you want to see or request tests, use that thread, and once the discussion is resolved adequately, I'm sure it will be bought up here if the combination does turn out to be as effective as yamislayer says, or won't be bought up again if it is as ineffective as you've said.

The argument has come to a point where it is discussing issues entirely irrelevant to this topic, and you both should be mature enough to drop it now, and move on to doing something productive to resolve it, or encouraging others to do so, if you are not able. Testing is where that resolution will be found.

Yeah, I know that Thread, but I would solve the discussion by myself and with my team as well, because it seemed that someone of you was happy with that combo and from what I've read no one during their battles has launched in a different way to defeat Gravity or to see if it can do well also in "hard situations" that are the ones that define a combo a Top Tier.

I would also add that I wasn't arguing and I wasn't sniping anyone. I've only written a "logbook" of the relevant things that happened during our event. I'm sorry if anyone has thought that I was arguing, it wasn't my intention. I was just replying to Yamislayer that tried to say that I was joking.

Anyway, tests to support my discussion will be added tomorrow.

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Melseth,il diavolo che si annida nel profondo della mia mente... mi spinge alla distruzione e alla pazzia...

My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

A few comments on the things we've been talking about:

RS's Stamina isn't as bad as I remembered it being; I was probably just thinking about how poorly it does against the left-spinning Lightning L Drago. It has no problems outspinning Flash, VariAres (left-spin is slightly harder, but VariAres has such crappy Stamina that it doesn't matter), Blitz, etc.

I tested Hades:

Attack Stadium
Launcher Grip + BeyLauncher
Equally Worn WDs
Alternating Shots
Wheels switched every five battles

Phantom Cancer AD145WD vs. Phantom Hades AD145WD
Phantom Cancer AD145WD: 12 wins
Phantom Hades AD145WD: 8 wins
Hades win percentage: 40%

Based on the results alone, it's clear that Hades did put up a fight ... but I'm still hesitant to say whether or not it is equal to Cancer. Who knows how much of a factor the Phantom Wheels played. We need more people to test it.

Also, I tested Saramanda Saramanda a bit, and while it seems to be usable defensively, I'm not a fan of how big a gap it leaves between itself and BD145 when they're used together. I'll test it more before attempting to write up an updated list.

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