Competitive Metal Fight Beyblade Combos


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From everything I've seen of Saramanda Saramanda(and heard of it, really), it's far better than Basalt, better than Death, but falls short of Duo for overall utility.

It is nothing near the monstrosity that Revizer Revizer is, though.
th!nk
Mmm, I figured. What of things like Revizer Saramanda?


I wouldn't be comfortable removing Death from the competitive combos list, btw, it's still a very good wheel (heck, even Basalt is probably a "competitive" part still tbh). Perhaps a reorganization, to split things that only have defense from things that are def/stamina hybrids or something would be a good idea...
Galaxy
(Jun. 16, 2012  6:32 AM)th!nk Wrote: Diablo on Attack (again): It's becoming really popular in a few places. Would like Galaxy, Yamislayer, and Uwik's point of views in particular here.

Yo!
Tell me, what do you want to know about Diablo in Attack customizations? It's quite natural for us to use it with an RF xD, so I'm not sure on what you really want to know from me Tongue_out
th!nk
Basically just why it is good and what combinations are best for it. Most complaints, including my own, are that it is too round and only pushes things around because of its weight, meaning overall it isn't as effective as Flash, Blitz or Variares. Any testing of it you guys have done, and a list of the times it has placed in tournaments (and what combos were used and even what it has beaten) would also be good.
Galaxy
(Jun. 17, 2012  5:31 PM)th!nk Wrote: Basically just why it is good and what combinations are best for it. Most complaints, including my own, are that it is too round and only pushes things around because of its weight, meaning overall it isn't as effective as Flash, Blitz or Variares. Any testing of it you guys have done, and a list of the times it has placed in tournaments (and what combos were used and even what it has beaten) would also be good.

Well, reading this:

(Jun. 06, 2012  8:48 PM)Galaxy Wrote: Attack
MF-H Diablo Bull TH170\BD145\GB145 RF\R2F

You can read what combinations are the best for us.
Explanations:
First of all, quoting Uwik:


Quote:Uwik's Tests


Here we have a better point of view.
Honestly, I really don't know at wich position's number is the best customizations. I must give a look to my Diablo and return here with the "correct number" xD.
Anyway, only one of them is the "correct" position, the position we prefer!

Comparing Diablo to Flash is incorrect IMHO.
Both of them are really aggressive, but in different ways.

Flash with its hits is able to generate a great Recoil and with its Smash Attack the other Beys have no or poor chances to remain in the Stadiums.

Diablo, in the correct position, is able to generate a great Recoil tha sometimes create the same effect of Flash, but its main feature is that it "crashes" the opponents rotations.

In the Italian MG, we love both Flash and Diablo but due to our kind of matches, Diablo has a lot of great features.
It's the only Attack Metal Wheel that can handle Flash: it's very important for us. Here on 10 players, 8 own a Flash. It has more stamina than Flash and in a lot of matches it makes the difference.
Sometimes, Flash fails its task due to bad luck, a great shoot of your opponent, or something else. If your opponent's Bey doesn't fly away from the stadium, Flash will lose.
With Diablo it's different; as you said, it pushes your opponent's Bey around the stadium, but at each hit your opponent's Bey will lose rotaions and you'll win thanks to this.

Attention! Saying this, I'm not saying that Flash is a stupid MW, or something like that. I'm just saying that these two MWs have different kinds of attack.
Personally, I love Flash more than Diablo, but it's a personal taste. I love to see things that fly away, that's all xD!

About Tracks and Bottoms:
I find GB145 and BD145 the best choices; you talked me about R145, but I have to test yet.
But we agreed on TH170 becuase we love it on Flash, and thinking that a lot of matches here are Diablo VS Flash, TH170 vs TH170 is a good way to fight xD
Also, due to its better stamina, I prefer RF on Diablo; it's because if you have to defeat a Flash, R2F won't be the best choice because of its worse stamina.

About test and tournaments: I've hosted "Il Signore dei Beyblade" the 9th of June.
Galaxy Wrote:Vincitori Il Signore dei BeyBlade:

1° Classificato TBPbeyZ-1201
2° Classificato darkwocher
3° Classificato Davestorm

TBPbeyZ-1201 won the first prize winning 23 matches on 23 using Diablo GB\TH RF :]
A few thoughts:

There is definitely merit in what Th!nk mentioned about Defense, splitting it up into some kinds of different categories. Reviser Reviser, Saramanda Saramanda, and basically any other Synchrom are indeed great at weight-based defense (and Reviser Reviser is, of course, also low recoil), but their lack of Stamina make them far different from Death and Duo in (and I'm quoting verbatum at this point) overall utility.

Something to consider might be adding Reviser Reviser, Saramanda Saramanda, and even just "Synchrom" to the defense list under a "weight-based defense" section, seeing as basically every Synchrom fits the bill of being heavy enough to overcome their own recoil much like Diablo (which would also be good for a weight-based section).

Obviously ditto what Th!nk said about E230: it should be on every defense custom on the list without a doubt.

TH170 might need to be taken off the defense list at this point, seeing as E230 does TH170's job of nullifying low attackers better in almost every way. I don't see any TH170 customs standing up to the current top-tier attackers, anyway, though I can always be proven wrong.

I'm personally for PD being put on the stamina list for basically every custom since it fills the same role as WD and D for the most part. I will have formal testing to back this up soon, and I can understand any hesitation with adding it without those results.

As seen in its thread, W145 looks like it should go up for stamina. I'm having a good laugh remembering some snide comments that were made a few pages back about W145 not even being good enough to have its own thread, and now it looks like it outclasses AD145 if the testing is worth its weight in salt. If it is strictly better than AD145, should AD come off the list too?

Spin equalizers seem tricky to add to this list, though I agree they deserve a spot. Right now, though, would that only be Meteo L-Drago CH120EWD, or would things like Europe's Gravity 100WD be worth mentioning too?r

I think that was everything I wanted to say, but lord knows I feel like I'm forgetting something. Ah, well, it'll come to me eventually.

EDIT: I remember the other thing! I think Flash's track list should be addressed. I personally think W145 should be added for starters (and maybe even AD145 removed?). Also, what about anti-meta stuff like TH170 that pops up from time to time?

EDIT 2: I got a very good reminder from Zancrow that L-Drago Destroy/Guardian combos should be considered as well. I know LDD/LDG BD145RDF has placed in several tournaments lately, and I'm hearing other bottoms are working as well (RF, MF, etc.).
Uwik
With the meta opening up slightly into more combos, I'm into the idea of splitting the basic classification into their more appropriate variant.

How about:
- Smash Attack
- Weight based Attack

- Defense
- Anti Attack

- Stamina

- Balance

- Spin Steal

Basic types to start with. Care to discuss?
th!nk
Weight Based Attack is still Smash Attack in the end, I wouldn't split them.

Anti Attack yeah, but then that's basically just Defense Wheels on RF anyway. I'd split defense into Low Recoil and Weight Based sections, maybe, or shift Duo/Death over to balance, seeing as Synchrom has shifted the defensive spectrum.

While Kei raised some doubts about it (not in this thread though - too close to fulfilling his responsibilities I guess), I do agree with including a spin stealer list - though the common LDD/LDG combos wouldn't fit in that category (they win through destabilization no? Destabilizing Attacker category or something?)

Or, we could list each combination and then address how they work, but that would be an awful big shake-up. Still, I'd like to make it easier for less-conventional combinations to get onto the competitive combos list in future, if they are indeed competitive, by not adding the additional "weight" of creating a new category for it. Personally, I'd do a misc. section but I don't think that's formal enough.

-TH170 and defense, I'd want more testing before removing it, but perhaps shifting it onto a balance section would work.
-W145 vs AD145: AD145 is still competitive IMO (though that didn't stop us removing 145). At the very least, I would leave removing AD145 to the update after we add W145.


I'm not convinced Flash TH170 is versatile enough to be competitive at this point, but perhaps I'm biased.
Uwik
(Jul. 17, 2012  8:25 AM)th!nk Wrote: Weight Based Attack is still Smash Attack in the end, I wouldn't split them.

Well, I'm on the edge for this one. I see your point, but let's think of it this way. Diablo. Both the Italians and Indonesians communities love it. Let's be honest though, it's not the best Smash Attacker wheel there is, in terms of smash alone, it probably ranks as 'Good', far from 'Great'. If it's split into the two, then we can put VariAres, Flash into the Smash Attacker, and Diablo, (maybe LDD BD145 RF) into the weight based one.

(Jul. 17, 2012  8:25 AM)th!nk Wrote: Anti Attack yeah, but then that's basically just Defense Wheels on RF anyway. I'd split defense into Low Recoil and Weight Based sections, maybe, or shift Duo/Death over to balance, seeing as Synchrom has shifted the defensive spectrum.

I'd even go as far as putting Diablo RF as Anti Attack, which is really what it does best. It sends the opposing beys (attackers) flying most of the time. We then have the Duo / Death / Synchromed based wheels as the good 'ol fashion defense.

(Jul. 17, 2012  8:25 AM)th!nk Wrote: -TH170 and defense, I'd want more testing before removing it, but perhaps shifting it onto a balance section would work.
-W145 vs AD145: AD145 is still competitive IMO (though that didn't stop us removing 145). At the very least, I would leave removing AD145 to the update after we add W145.

I'm with Ingulit on this part. Put E230 in Defense, and remove TH170. If I was in a competitive environment and I know for certain I was facing attackers, there's no way I would choose TH170 to begin with. What TH170 does in term of defensive properties, E230 does it better.

Although, AD145 is still competitive, we can't deny the results over in the W145 thread. It's being 'outclassed' in all of the cases. Be it mirror matches, or even standard tests with each other as benchmarks. I have yet to confirm it myself personally, but it definitely leans heavily in favor of W145 at the moment.

EDIT: Let's not forget to explicitly state that we're talking about Takara Tomy 4D Metal Wheels, and not Hasbro's Metal Fury.
Kei
I'll comment more on what should actually be added to the list/changed later, but for now I'll just say that the sections currently in use–Attack, Defense, Stamina, and Balance–are good enough. They are the real "basic types". Anything beyond those are what I would call "sub-types", and it isn't the job of this thread to spell everything out that like that.
Kei
My proposed update:

(Dec. 16, 2010  3:55 AM)Kei Wrote: ATTACK
  • Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Flash Escolpio/Orion/Pisces 105/CH120/125/130/AD145/GB145/H145 RF/R2F/MF
  • Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
  • Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Blitz Unicorno II 100/CH120 RF/R2F
  • Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 RF/R2F

DEFENSE
  • Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Kerbecs BD145/E230 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  • Metal Face-Heavy Death Aquario/Bull/Kerbecs BD145/E230 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  • Metal Stone Face-Heavy Revizer Revizer BD145/E230 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS

STAMINA
  • Phantom Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus 85/W145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/SWD/WD
  • Duo Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus 85/W145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/SWD/WD

BALANCE
  • Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus 230MB
  • Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF

Added:
- Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 RF/R2F to Attack.
- E230 to all Defense customs.
- Metal Stone Face-Heavy Revizer Revizer BD145/E230 CS/RB/RDF/RS to Defense.
- W145 to all Stamina customs.
- Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF to Balance.

Subtracted:
- Diablo from Defense.
- Bull from Stamina.
- AD145 from Stamina.

Considered:
- TH170 for Attack? Maybe this is too situational–as th!nk alluded to–but with E230 being added, it should be considered.
- PD. It has always had the Stamina to compete with top-tier Stamina Bottoms, but the Polyoxymethylene plastic vs. Polycarbonate is the dealbreaker for me. I can't be the only person here who thinks any Bottom designed to produce less friction would be a good idea against anything but Earth or Duo Stamina customs (ie. Wheels with little to no recoil).
- Basalt. Depending on how you use it, it can still be highly competitive. Not sure if it still deserves a spot, but it's still very good.


I don't think there's anything else that really needs to be explained to you guys. Tell me what you think!
Galaxy
Mmh, intersting.
- Why do you think that Unicorno II is good on Diablo? I suggest also GB145 and TH170, both of them do very good things against high defensive tracks, and both of them gives you a lot of chances against a combo with BD145 (more GB145 than TH170)
- E230, absolutely yes.
- We don't have Revizer Revizer yet, so I can not say anything on this combo, but are you sure that CS is a good bottom? Here, we don't use CS anymore. It isn't good against aggressive attack. But maybe it finds some uses with Revizer Revizer, that's why I'm asking! The same question is valid for RS.
- We don't have W145 yet.
- How do you use L Drago? Spin Stealing?

- I'm not sure about the subtracted section (Diablo and Bull). AD145, OK!

- Sure, I find TH170 one of the best tracks for our Attack customizations!
- I've never used my PD... too rare xD!
- Mmh, Basalt is strongly outclassed.... not sure it deserves a spot in the list.

By the way, I've just read that you have 85 in stamina customizations...
Why? It is not a good choice if against you have higher tracks (stamina customizations), and we've tested that an aggressive combo it has no chances. I don't remember our results against defense, but we didn't obtain good results...
Kei
(Jul. 19, 2012  12:52 AM)Galaxy Wrote: Mmh, intersting.
- Why do you think that Unicorno II is good on Diablo? I suggest also GB145 and TH170, both of them do very good things against high defensive tracks, and both of them gives you a lot of chances against a combo with BD145 (more GB145 than TH170)

Unicorno II is currently listed under the "Defense" combo for Diablo, and I figured that it mustn't be that bad, considering that it is three-sided like Kerbecs is.

Why GB145?

TH170 is a possibility, yeah. I'd like to see what everyone else thinks.

(Jul. 19, 2012  12:52 AM)Galaxy Wrote: - We don't have Revizer Revizer yet, so I can not say anything on this combo, but are you sure that CS is a good bottom? Here, we don't use CS anymore. It isn't good against aggressive attack. But maybe it finds some uses with Revizer Revizer, that's why I'm asking! The same question is valid for RS.

I agree. CS has become nearly non-existent here in Toronto now ... which is slightly shocking, to be honest, when you consider how popular it used to be. Still, I don't think it is bad by any means.

RS could probably be removed just because we have Bottoms like RDF and RB now.

(Jul. 19, 2012  12:52 AM)Galaxy Wrote: - How do you use L Drago? Spin Stealing?

That helps, but OSing opponents is not the goal with the combo(s) I've listed (though it is possible). Because L Drago Destroy/Guardian is left spin, this means you can weak launch it to great effect against right-spin Attack combos. If VariAres isn't popular where you play, this can be a great advantage. In addition to this, you can also KO Stamina types by launching aggressively, and it also gives tall tracks problems by destabilizing them.

(Jul. 19, 2012  12:52 AM)Galaxy Wrote: - I'm not sure about the subtracted section (Diablo and Bull). AD145, OK!

Why would Diablo be listed for Defense, though? In what situation do you use Diablo with a defensive mindset? The goal is always to KO your opponent with Diablo. Besides being heavy (which should be a considered a secondary factor when determining how good a defensive Wheel is), the design of Diablo would absolutely not be considered "defensive".

(Jul. 19, 2012  12:52 AM)Galaxy Wrote: By the way, I've just read that you have 85 in stamina customizations...
Why? It is not a good choice if against you have higher tracks (stamina customizations), and we've tested that an aggressive combo it has no chances. I don't remember our results against defense, but we didn't obtain good results...

In general, I would say Stamina customs that low are no longer relevant, but I do agree that 85 shouldn't be on there. If we are going to list a low Track, it should be 100 or 105. I must have missed it when I was going through the list earlier.

Galaxy
(Jul. 19, 2012  2:21 AM)Kei Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2012  12:52 AM)Galaxy Wrote: Mmh, intersting.
- Why do you think that Unicorno II is good on Diablo? I suggest also GB145 and TH170, both of them do very good things against high defensive tracks, and both of them gives you a lot of chances against a combo with BD145 (more GB145 than TH170)

Unicorno II is currently listed under the "Defense" combo for Diablo, and I figured that it mustn't be that bad, considering that it is three-sided like Kerbecs is.
Uhm, to be honest I've never tested it. I have to try Tongue_out I'm quite curious to see if that shape can help!

(Jul. 19, 2012  2:21 AM)Kei Wrote: Why GB145?
Well, we use it because:
- it is a 145
- if there's a match between BD145 vs BD145, Diablo loses a lot of its power, with GB145 you have a similar weight but you'll have more contacts.

(Jul. 19, 2012  2:21 AM)Kei Wrote: TH170 is a possibility, yeah. I'd like to see what everyone else thinks.
Well, on Diablo maybe it is not necessary as it is for Flash if you want to defeat 230's users! But it still is an excellent track for Diablo, IMHO.

(Jul. 19, 2012  2:21 AM)Kei Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2012  12:52 AM)Galaxy Wrote: - We don't have Revizer Revizer yet, so I can not say anything on this combo, but are you sure that CS is a good bottom? Here, we don't use CS anymore. It isn't good against aggressive attack. But maybe it finds some uses with Revizer Revizer, that's why I'm asking! The same question is valid for RS.


I agree. CS has become nearly non-existent here in Toronto now ... which is slightly shocking, to be honest, when you consider how popular it used to be. Still, I don't think it is bad by any means.

RS could probably be removed just because we have Bottoms like RDF and RB now.
Yeah, that's what I was saying. You're really right; in fact, I don't think it's a bad bottom (we still use it with Phantom BD145, so we still use it) but we prefer other bottoms for pure defense.

(Jul. 19, 2012  2:21 AM)Kei Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2012  12:52 AM)Galaxy Wrote: - How do you use L Drago? Spin Stealing?

That helps, but OSing opponents is not the goal with the combo(s) I've listed (though it is possible). Because L Drago Destroy/Guardian is left spin, this means you can weak launch it to great effect against right-spin Attack combos. If VariAres isn't popular where you play, this can be a great advantage. In addition to this, you can also KO Stamina types by launching aggressively, and it also gives tall tracks problems by destabilizing them.
Ah, got it. the main problem here is that 7 times on 10, we have attack vs attack xD, so using that combo is kinda risky for us. I've seen a couple of players that used LDrago Guardian ED145 MF. It wasn't bad, but you'd be sure that your opponent is a stamina or defense player!
For a weak shoot, I still prefer other customizations.

(Jul. 19, 2012  2:21 AM)Kei Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2012  12:52 AM)Galaxy Wrote: - I'm not sure about the subtracted section (Diablo and Bull). AD145, OK!

Why would Diablo be listed for Defense, though? In what situation do you use Diablo with a defensive mindset? The goal is always to KO your opponent with Diablo. Besides being heavy (which should be a considered a secondary factor when determining how good a defensive Wheel is), the design of Diablo would absolutely not be considered "defensive".
Mainly, because from our tests with a Flash it's more difficult to defeat Diablo than Death, so we prefer to use Duo and Diablo for pure defense. Yeah, its design maybe is not appropriate for defense, but it's able to absorb a lot of heavy hits, better than Death... really better!

(Jul. 19, 2012  2:21 AM)Kei Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2012  12:52 AM)Galaxy Wrote: By the way, I've just read that you have 85 in stamina customizations...
Why? It is not a good choice if against you have higher tracks (stamina customizations), and we've tested that an aggressive combo it has no chances. I don't remember our results against defense, but we didn't obtain good results...

In general, I would say Stamina customs that low are no longer relevant, but I do agree that 85 shouldn't be on there. If we are going to list a low Track, it should be 100 or 105. I must have missed it when I was going through the list earlier.
Yeah, even if both of them won't work against attack.. Sorry, but I always think considering attack customizations Tongue_out

Kai-V
Personally, Gryph is better than VariAres, but I suppose more people need to get it and test it ...
(Jul. 19, 2012  12:33 AM)Kei Wrote: Added:
- Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 RF/R2F to Attack.
- E230 to all Defense customs.
- Metal Stone Face-Heavy Revizer Revizer BD145/E230 CS/RB/RDF/RS to Defense.
- W145 to all Stamina customs.
- Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF to Balance.
1) I like this move, it's more representative of what it does for sure.
2) Obviously good
3) Also obviously good.
4) Very good
5) I like it! Balance is a great place to put this custom, and just from looking at the Winning Combinations thread it certainly deserves a spot. The only thing I'm iffy about is "Destroy/Guardian"... I think someone who has practiced with this custom a lot should make a thread about it in the Customs section where we find out which of the two metal frames is better (or if they are as interchangeable as they seem).

(Jul. 19, 2012  12:33 AM)Kei Wrote: Subtracted:
- Diablo from Defense.
- Bull from Stamina.
- AD145 from Stamina.
1) Again, I like this move.
2) Good, it's very outclassed by its peers.
3) Good! I completely agree with W145 over this.

(Jul. 19, 2012  12:33 AM)Kei Wrote: Considered:
- TH170 for Attack? Maybe this is too situational–as th!nk alluded to–but with E230 being added, it should be considered.
- PD. It has always had the Stamina to compete with top-tier Stamina Bottoms, but the Polyoxymethylene plastic vs. Polycarbonate is the dealbreaker for me. I can't be the only person here who thinks any Bottom designed to produce less friction would be a good idea against anything but Earth or Duo Stamina customs (ie. Wheels with little to no recoil).
- Basalt. Depending on how you use it, it can still be highly competitive. Not sure if it still deserves a spot, but it's still very good.
1) I'm glad to see it being considered, but it should probably be kept off until everyone and their grandmother has an E230.
2) I personally think it can go on the list. I've done a LOT of testing with mine, and I can safely say that I have observed its defense is no worse than D, WD, or SD, despite the material it's made of. More testing would be good to see what, exactly, it should be used with, but its material shouldn't be the reason to keep it off the list.
3) I completely agree with this notion, though there isn't any standout custom that uses Basalt right now that couldn't in some way be improved by replacing the metal wheel. I'll put some more random testing into Basalt to see if anything pops up, though lord knows practically every combo has been tried with Basalt at this point.



Other comments:

- I'd personally add Hades to the Stamina clear wheels for at least Phantom. I did some tests awhile back that showed it gives Phantom a solid extra minute of solo spin time over Cancer. I'll do more testing to back this up (especially now that I have two Phantoms), but from my own experience I think it's good enough.

- I'm also wary about CS as a defensive tip since Flash is a thing. If Flash is making metal-on-metal contact, be that if it's Flash S130 against Duo BD145 or Flash TH195 vs Duo E230, if the defense custom is using CS, it's getting KOed. I don't know about Reviser Reviser and CS, but I'd still say the other tips are much stronger choices at this point.

- I think RS still very much deserves a spot on the list; I'm personally of the opinion that it's still the best pure defense tip, and I know I'm not alone thinking that. Yes, RDF and RB come very close to the defense power and provide much better stamina, but RS is still the tip that's least likely to end up outside the stadium at the end of the day. It's also much shorter than RB and a little shorter than RDF, which can be very helpful (I'm not saying its height is a reason to keep it on the tier list, I'm just pointing that out, heh).

- Why isn't RSF on the defense list anymore? In my experience it's better than CS for pure defense.

- I would replace the last instance of AD145--on the Flash track list--with W145 again. It definitely outclasses AD145 on Flash in my experience.

- As far as LTSCs go, yeah, they are basically nonexistent. Still, what is 85 lacking that 100/105 have? Just curious.


Overall it's a very good list; all my critiques are just nitpicks.

EDIT: Gryph better than the dual-spin king? Wow, it certainly does sound like it deserves more testing.
th!nk
Good to see you contributing to the discussion again Kei Smile

I'm uncomfortable with BD145 on Diablo for attack. It's already sluggish as it is, and BD145 only makes that worse. I'd like to hear from Uwik and Galaxy as to what tracks Diablo appears on in their metagames. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I recall at least there being more effective tracks.

PD: Ingulit, you have two phantoms now right? Could you see how it holds up for us? My only experience with POM tips is MDBS's in plastics (which doesn't have significantly worse defense than wolborg's similar-but-non-POM tip)


Saramanda Saramanda: Why isn't this on your list, Kei?


I've been considering the basalt issue myself, actually. In the end, the fact is that these other wheels do everything it does more effectively. Is that an obstacle for listing it, and if it isn't, then there are also a bunch of other things we may need to re-add.

Also, what of things like Gravity Perseus BD145RDF, and LDD/LDG BD145MF etc? Also, spin-stealers really do need to be considered.

CS: Perhaps it could be shifted to balance, *however* attack is not as reliable in a tournament situation generally, due to a number of factors, and a CS defender should be able to withstand flash. Plus, pretty sure revizer revizer tanks the hits even on CS.

@Galaxy: Unicorno II was added on my suggestion last round or thereabouts. It's three sided, and much more evenly distributed than Kerbecs, while also being one of the heavier CW's.



Yamislayer
(Jul. 19, 2012  3:30 AM)th!nk Wrote: Also, what of things like Gravity Perseus BD145RDF

Sorry for being totally away from wbo and bouncing back like this, but i just read this.
I didn't know it as a well known combo and i was winning A LOT with it keeping it for myself,
anyway i think that combo should NOT be ever underestimated.

IN MY OPINION

A very smart/technical player can handle like every matchup with it.
From my tests, STAMINA clear is REALLY needed since it helps defending and spin stealing against super duper high combos.
I'd say that if 2 players are on the same level or even similar, the gravity user would lose to good attack combos with flash/diablo (vari and blitz were having a tougher time last time i tried them).
I'm glad to see diablo as a good attack part on your list. It kinda deserved it.
th!nk
We have a thread for it specifically with the stamina cw and the testing looked very impressive last I checked.

Other things: removing diablo and leaving death up, Kei? Seems odd. Unless something changed since I last checked, they were about equal with diablo perhaps being slightly better.

GB145 has now been mentioned a few times for diablo attack around the place, though I don't understand why it would be chosen over r145. I'm very uncomfortable with listing bd145 as the only track option though on a top tier attack combo, especially as I had very little luck with that combo against defense, moreso against attack and Stamina (and I'd like to see it tested against duo bd145 eds....)

Also, hades should be considered for the stamina cw list, testing indicates it does well iirc.

@Kai-V I feel Griff needs more testing, if anything it would most likely knock off blitz as variares has the whole dual spin thing going for it (though does that help it against e230 or anything?)
Kei
(Jul. 19, 2012  2:45 AM)Galaxy Wrote: - if there's a match between BD145 vs BD145, Diablo loses a lot of its power, with GB145 you have a similar weight but you'll have more contacts.

Hmm, you're right ... but does this make it the best Track for Diablo in general? I'm not sure.

(Jul. 19, 2012  2:45 AM)Galaxy Wrote: Well, on Diablo maybe it is not necessary as it is for Flash if you want to defeat 230's users! But it still is an excellent track for Diablo, IMHO.

I'm thinking it might just be necessary for Flash.

(Jul. 19, 2012  2:45 AM)Galaxy Wrote: Ah, got it. the main problem here is that 7 times on 10, we have attack vs attack xD, so using that combo is kinda risky for us. I've seen a couple of players that used LDrago Guardian ED145 MF. It wasn't bad, but you'd be sure that your opponent is a stamina or defense player!
For a weak shoot, I still prefer other customizations.

How does it make using that combo risky?

What other combos do you prefer for weak shooting? This one is so great because it actually stands a decent chance at defeating an attack type through the employment of that technique, unlike a Stamina type.

(Jul. 19, 2012  2:45 AM)Galaxy Wrote: Mainly, because from our tests with a Flash it's more difficult to defeat Diablo than Death, so we prefer to use Duo and Diablo for pure defense. Yeah, its design maybe is not appropriate for defense, but it's able to absorb a lot of heavy hits, better than Death... really better!

I'm sure it is. However, what type of combos are we talking with Diablo? Unless they're using a calm RB/RDF, I would tend to call it an Attack type, rather than a Defense type. The line is thin though, for sure, given Diablo's properties.

(Jul. 19, 2012  3:01 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Personally, Gryph is better than VariAres, but I suppose more people need to get it and test it ...

Really? We do need to test it more, then! I haven't even used mine yet, haha.

(Jul. 19, 2012  3:16 AM)Ingulit Wrote: 5) I like it! Balance is a great place to put this custom, and just from looking at the Winning Combinations thread it certainly deserves a spot. The only thing I'm iffy about is "Destroy/Guardian"... I think someone who has practiced with this custom a lot should make a thread about it in the Customs section where we find out which of the two metal frames is better (or if they are as interchangeable as they seem).

Someone should do an in depth comparison of the two, I agree. I have always used the Destroy variant, but many people have also been using Guardian to great effect.

(Jul. 19, 2012  3:16 AM)Ingulit Wrote: 1) I'm glad to see it being considered, but it should probably be kept off until everyone and their grandmother has an E230.
2) I personally think it can go on the list. I've done a LOT of testing with mine, and I can safely say that I have observed its defense is no worse than D, WD, or SD, despite the material it's made of. More testing would be good to see what, exactly, it should be used with, but its material shouldn't be the reason to keep it off the list.

1) This list considers factors such as availability/distribution irrelevant; it is supposed to merely be an objective representation of what the most competitive combos would be in an ideal world where everything is available to everyone. So, I think it should be added now.
2) Ah, well, that's good to hear!


(Jul. 19, 2012  3:16 AM)Ingulit Wrote: - I'd personally add Hades to the Stamina clear wheels for at least Phantom. I did some tests awhile back that showed it gives Phantom a solid extra minute of solo spin time over Cancer. I'll do more testing to back this up (especially now that I have two Phantoms), but from my own experience I think it's good enough.

Is there testing somewhere for this? I've heard people talk about it before.


(Jul. 19, 2012  3:16 AM)Ingulit Wrote: - I'm also wary about CS as a defensive tip since Flash is a thing. If Flash is making metal-on-metal contact, be that if it's Flash S130 against Duo BD145 or Flash TH195 vs Duo E230, if the defense custom is using CS, it's getting KOed. I don't know about Reviser Reviser and CS, but I'd still say the other tips are much stronger choices at this point.

You're right. It just isn't good enough to be considered "competitive" for pure Defense anymore. Does anybody disagree?

Maybe keep it on Revizer, though.

(Jul. 19, 2012  3:16 AM)Ingulit Wrote: - I think RS still very much deserves a spot on the list; I'm personally of the opinion that it's still the best pure defense tip, and I know I'm not alone thinking that. Yes, RDF and RB come very close to the defense power and provide much better stamina, but RS is still the tip that's least likely to end up outside the stadium at the end of the day. It's also much shorter than RB and a little shorter than RDF, which can be very helpful (I'm not saying its height is a reason to keep it on the tier list, I'm just pointing that out, heh).

- Why isn't RSF on the defense list anymore? In my experience it's better than CS for pure defense.

You're probably right about RS still being the best pure Defense tip, but I can't think of many situations where using RS would provide that significant of an advantage vs. disadvantage in a competitive situation. Some RF combos can outspin RS ... which is a bad thing. Yes, you need Defense, but you also need to outspin your opponent for that to matter.

I have no idea. Especially if we're removing CS, it should be added back.

(Jul. 19, 2012  3:16 AM)Ingulit Wrote: - As far as LTSCs go, yeah, they are basically nonexistent. Still, what is 85 lacking that 100/105 have? Just curious.

Height? lol

(Jul. 19, 2012  3:30 AM)th!nk Wrote: I'm uncomfortable with BD145 on Diablo for attack. It's already sluggish as it is, and BD145 only makes that worse. I'd like to hear from Uwik and Galaxy as to what tracks Diablo appears on in their metagames. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I recall at least there being more effective tracks.

It's track record in tournaments speaks for itself, in my opinion.

(Jul. 19, 2012  3:30 AM)th!nk Wrote: Saramanda Saramanda: Why isn't this on your list, Kei?

I dunno. I don't have much experience with it, and I haven't heard much about it.

(Jul. 19, 2012  3:30 AM)th!nk Wrote: Also, what of things like Gravity Perseus BD145RDF, and LDD/LDG BD145MF etc? Also, spin-stealers really do need to be considered.

Gravity Perseus BD145RDF: The idea seems similar to the L Drago Destroy/Guardian variant. Gravity Perseus has the advantage of being able to spin both left and right, but it is also smaller, and lighter.

L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145MF: My love for this combo has been overtaken by the BD145RDF version, to be honest. MF has better Stamina, but this is negligible when you consider what RDF enables it to be.

(Jul. 19, 2012  6:55 AM)th!nk Wrote: Other things: removing diablo and leaving death up, Kei? Seems odd. Unless something changed since I last checked, they were about equal with diablo perhaps being slightly better.

I'm just not sure if we should classify Diablo as a "defensive" Wheel.
th!nk
(Jul. 19, 2012  3:50 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2012  3:30 AM)th!nk Wrote: Saramanda Saramanda: Why isn't this on your list, Kei?

I dunno. I don't have much experience with it, and I haven't heard much about it.
So, uh, check the testing thread? If you're in charge of this thread, let alone beywiki, which combined are the main body of knowledge on this site, you really have a responsibility to do that kind of thing, I mean, if you have the final say, you really have to be completely up to date with what others test and use, at the very least...

Quote:Gravity Perseus BD145RDF: The idea seems similar to the L Drago Destroy/Guardian variant. Gravity Perseus has the advantage of being able to spin both left and right, but it is also smaller, and lighter.
The testing thread is there if you want to check it. It doesn't seem to fare too well against attack, but the versatility of dual spin against the broader range of opponents you face in tournaments is very useful, and I'm pretty sure gravity had significantly better stamina than LDD/LDG, so it would likely win a mirror match. Still, look at the results and try it out.

Quote:L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145MF: My love for this combo has been overtaken by the BD145RDF version, to be honest. MF has better Stamina, but this is negligible when you consider what RDF enables it to be.
So would you say MF does not deserve a place? I'm just curious, I don't really have significant experience with the RDF version as I don't currently have a working L/R Launcher (or any right spin launcher) so I can't really test properly.


Quote:I'm just not sure if we should classify Diablo as a "defensive" Wheel.

Everyone else agreed upon it in your absence and it is largely used defensively. A wheel can be both offensive and defensive, it just takes weight (which diablo has). It performed just as well in traditional defensive setups as Death last I checked, so that should be more than enough to settle the matter. Did you check that testing before taking it off for your proposed update?


RE: Gryph: It is something people should be buying and testing. I don't have the money to do so right now and probably won't for a little while, but I've heard a lot of good things. I'm guessing it's weight will allow it to stand it's ground on the list (much like diablo), trading off a little of the power flash has for the ability to beat flash in a 1v1. Would be extremely interested in Gryph vs Diablo testing if that hasn't been done already. Hopefully this discussion will spur more people to test it (and more testing is something this forum really needs right now!)


Re: CS: If we remove it from Defense, we shouldn't flat out remove it, but leave it on wheels that can use it effectively (Revizer Revizer can, right?), and add viable CS balance combos that are moved off defense to the balance section. It really is a balance tip but it would mean a lot of duplication.

Re: RSF: Reason it aint up there is RDF and RB, and even RS in some cases. In testing it always performed at best only barely above CS in terms of pure defense, and it is barely used nowadays from what I've seen.
I think we might want to seriously add an "Anti-Attack" subcategory to Defense for Diablo to slot into, as that custom isn't really an attacker or defensive combo. Barring that, we might need to consider adding it to Balance, since it does technically combine attack and defense.

(Jul. 19, 2012  3:50 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2012  3:16 AM)Ingulit Wrote: 5) I like it! Balance is a great place to put this custom, and just from looking at the Winning Combinations thread it certainly deserves a spot. The only thing I'm iffy about is "Destroy/Guardian"... I think someone who has practiced with this custom a lot should make a thread about it in the Customs section where we find out which of the two metal frames is better (or if they are as interchangeable as they seem).

Someone should do an in depth comparison of the two, I agree. I have always used the Destroy variant, but many people have also been using Guardian to great effect.

Right! Again, I think someone should make a thread about it. I'd do it, but I don't have LDD to do comparison tests myself. I'd contribute as much as I could with my LDG, though.

(Jul. 19, 2012  3:50 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2012  3:16 AM)Ingulit Wrote: 1) I'm glad to see it being considered, but it should probably be kept off until everyone and their grandmother has an E230.

1) This list considers factors such as availability/distribution irrelevant; it is supposed to merely be an objective representation of what the most competitive combos would be in an ideal world where everything is available to everyone. So, I think it should be added now.
Ah, sorry, I'm used to tier lists that factor in the current meta, which is why I said "Wait until everyone has E230."

The easiest example I can give is Brawl where certain characters that have really, really hard counters are still placed higher on the tier list because they don't do horribly against Meta Knight (60% of the meta). If MK was officially banned, these characters would plummet on the tier list since their counters would probably become more popular.

To tie this back to Beyblade, TH170 is great against E230, but it's only really good against E230. Thus, my reasoning is that TH170 shouldn't be added until E230 is a truly widespread contender in tournaments, as TH170 is really only used to counter it.

Don't get me wrong, I personally think TH170 should be added at some point; I just wanted to clarify what I said earlier.

(Jul. 19, 2012  3:50 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2012  3:16 AM)Ingulit Wrote: - I'd personally add Hades to the Stamina clear wheels for at least Phantom. I did some tests awhile back that showed it gives Phantom a solid extra minute of solo spin time over Cancer. I'll do more testing to back this up (especially now that I have two Phantoms), but from my own experience I think it's good enough.

Is there testing somewhere for this? I've heard people talk about it before.

The only real testing was me doing some solo spin tests that showed Hades gave Phantom an extra minute of solo spin time. This weekend I'll do some comparison tests to see if Hades and PD really are top-tier worthy. On a side note, I love having two Phantoms :3

(Jul. 19, 2012  3:50 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2012  3:16 AM)Ingulit Wrote: - I think RS still very much deserves a spot on the list; I'm personally of the opinion that it's still the best pure defense tip, and I know I'm not alone thinking that. Yes, RDF and RB come very close to the defense power and provide much better stamina, but RS is still the tip that's least likely to end up outside the stadium at the end of the day. It's also much shorter than RB and a little shorter than RDF, which can be very helpful (I'm not saying its height is a reason to keep it on the tier list, I'm just pointing that out, heh).

You're probably right about RS still being the best pure Defense tip, but I can't think of many situations where using RS would provide that significant of an advantage vs. disadvantage in a competitive situation. Some RF combos can outspin RS ... which is a bad thing. Yes, you need Defense, but you also need to outspin your opponent for that to matter.

You're very right about RS's stamina being piss poor, there is no questioning that. In my experience, however, it's one of the few tips that I have difficulty KOing with Flash when I'm using Duo and Death on either BD145 or (especially) E230; RB and RDF aren't particularly easy to KO, but they're farrrr easier than RS. I'm not sure Duo and Death have the weight to stop the train that is Flash on anything less defensive than RS (of course, then they have to OS it...).

(Jul. 19, 2012  3:50 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2012  3:16 AM)Ingulit Wrote: - As far as LTSCs go, yeah, they are basically nonexistent. Still, what is 85 lacking that 100/105 have? Just curious.

Height? lol

I laughed quite a bit at this. Touche, good sir!

Th!nk Wrote:Re: RSF: Reason it aint up there is RDF and RB, and even RS in some cases. In testing it always performed at best only barely above CS in terms of pure defense, and it is barely used nowadays from what I've seen.

Gotcha. I think I just saw the incredibly comprehensive Stamina bottom list and felt something was missing from Defense.
th!nk
Even round wheels on RF are anti attack, and many do it better than diablo at the cost of not being able to handle stamina (and therefore more like a defense combo). Diablo+RF could definitely go on balance though, but it still needs to be on the defense list unless you also remove death, but for that to happen, they have to be no longer competitive in defense setups.

As for TH170 on Flash, again, I don't think it is effective against enough things to be on the list. It's a niche setup, and unless E230 IS everywhere, it isn't competitive. Even if we aren't supposed to consider distribution but the fact is it is an exception to that case... That said, we are determining what is COMPETITIVE, and what is/isn't competitive will depend on part distribution anyway. I know there's no point arguing with you over this, though.

RS: Definitely needs to stay up. It's still the strongest defensive tip.

LDD/LDG: Both have different strengths and weaknesses. I prefer LDG as I tend to use combinations with it in a more defensive manner, but LDD is better for attacking. Honestly, I consider them roughly equal, and we do know both of them are competitive so there's no issue with listing them. The testing would be welcome though.

LTSC: Even if they barely appear in tournaments, we only care whether or not they're competitive. I've got no clue what you're on about with 100/105, at the very best it would depend on the wheel (mainly how it overhangs), but at the very least testing is needed. I still feel LTSC is competitive, it has extra versatility against attack. That said, W145 may do away with it for good, but more testing is needed on LTSC as a whole.

Somebody on Facebook brought up the idea of putting Wing on the list over Death, and I think the idea merits discussion. I've always liked Wing for defense personally, but I'm not sure it's better than Death.

Some points for discussion:
  • Wing is heavier
  • Wing is much wider
  • Death overhangs the track a lot while Wing does not
  • I'd imagine Death has less recoil, but I haven't been able to tell
  • Death probably has better Stamina (on rubber tips I don't notice a major difference)
  • Wing is 3-sided (synergy with Kerbecs, BD145)
  • Both get bodied by Flash (though in my tests Wing does better than Death, but it's still not pretty)

I'm also going to add that in a world of Duo, Diablo, and Synchroms, both Death and Wing seem heavily outclassed at defense.
th!nk
Wing is roughly as good as death even without the overhang, but IMO once you take into account duo, diablo and the two best synchrome combos (and maybe more), the defense list is pretty full, and death is a better balance wheel than wing imo. I like wing a lot but diablo and the synchromes all do the same kind of thing.
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